Shadow Vs Knuckles: Role of Rival

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 minute ago, Sparky said:

Eggman building a weapon to conquer the world just might take priority over staying on Angel Island to guard the Master Emerald.

You mean like he does all the time, which doesn't always require Knuckles's help?

If that's the case, where was Knuckles the entire time during Unleashed?

[Sparky]

Just now, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

You mean like he does all the time, which doesn't always require Knuckles's help?

If that's the case, where was Knuckles the entire time during Unleashed?

During Sonic Unleashed, Sonic was pretty much acting alone and only ran into Tails and Amy by chance. 

[blade57331]

3 minutes ago, Sparky said:

Eggman building a weapon to conquer the world just might take priority over staying on Angel Island to guard the Master Emerald.

It didn't take priority in Sonic Adventure 1 or 2 (or Unleashed if someone want to speculate)

[Sparky]

1 minute ago, blade57331 said:

It didn't take priority in Sonic Adventure 1 or 2 (or Unleashed if someone want to speculate)

Both of those situations are different. In Sonic Heroes, the Master Emerald is already on Angel Island and safe and stuff, unlike in SA1 and SA2 where it's broken. Knuckles going out to fight Eggman with Sonic and Tails ensures that the Master Emerald and Angel Island will continue to be safe, and prevents the possibility of Eggman getting to Angel Island and the Master Emerald. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

15 minutes ago, Sparky said:

During Sonic Unleashed, Sonic was pretty much acting alone and only ran into Tails and Amy by chance. 

That doesn't answer my question.

If Eggman building a superweapon for the dozenth time is suppose to be enough for Knuckles to be away from his island and the Master Emerald, why didn't Knuckles do that in Unleashed when the world was shattered apart and it would have been absolutely justified for him to be away to help out?

Even better, what in Heroes' story prevents Sonic from acting without Knuckles's help? Because Eggman only addressed it for Sonic to stop - Knuckles could have stayed out of it and it wouldn't change Heroes' in the slightest compared to actually giving substance and justification to having Knuckles around. This is one of many reasons as to why Heroes has such faulty writing and plotting.

 

Quote

 Both of those situations are different. In Sonic Heroes, the Master Emerald is already on Angel Island and safe and stuff, unlike in SA1 and SA2 where it's broken. Knuckles going out to fight Eggman with Sonic and Tails ensures that the Master Emerald and Angel Island will continue to be safe, and prevents the possibility of Eggman getting to Angel Island and the Master Emerald.

 

Knuckles staying on Angel Island would have been a bigger help, because if Eggman actually came to the island, Knuckles could fight him off given he has a home field advantage and can use the Master Emerald against him if all else fails rather than leaving everything unguarded (which would actually make it easier for Eggman to get to - there's a reason we station guards around important things). It ensures that the Master Emerald is always in his presence, his home is always safe in the air, and that the person who wants it will have to fight through absolute hell just to get it to the point it might not be worth it.

[Sparky]

1 minute ago, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

That doesn't answer my question.

If Eggman building a superweapon for the dozenth time is suppose to be enough for Knuckles to be away from his island and the Master Emerald, why didn't he do that in Unleashed when the world was shattered apart?

Even better, what in Heroes' story prevents Sonic from acting without Knuckles's help? Because Eggman only addressed it for Sonic to stop - Knuckles could have stayed out of it and it wouldn't change Heroes' in the slightest compared to actually giving substance and justification to having Knuckles around.

Eggman's letter said "Guess what Sonic Heroes". And apparently, the letter was delivered to Tails, who chose to get Knuckles to help first and then track down Sonic.

We don't know what Knuckles was doing in Unleashed. For all we know, he could have been out doing stuff and just hasn't ran into Sonic. The same could be said for Shadow. 

[Nepenthe]

The small cast in Unleashed was actually derided as being dumb though considering the circumstances of its plot, and I agree with that criticism in regards to its casting. Like, just because it happened doesn't mean people were okay with it.

7 minutes ago, blade57331 said:

It didn't take priority in Sonic Adventure 1 or 2 (or Unleashed if someone want to speculate)

No one knew of the events going on in SA1 to be able to conclude until it was too late that Chaos was going to destroy everything if he leveled up, thus there was no narrative incentive to call Knuckles for help. All Sonic and Tails were doing was engaging in a Chaos Emerald collectathon race with Eggman that they were handling decently well on their own, along with their own side quests and diversions. The same goes for everything going on in SA2 to a point; no one knew Eggman was gonna blow up the moon until he did it.

Heroes, unlike the Adventures, has a different narrative set-up and overall plot progression where Eggman (or rather Metal) is blatantly saying that he will basically fuck over the planet in three days' time, meaning there is no point in focusing on anything else except getting to him and stopping him.

Spoiler

Although we must recognize that these games are not made free of an economic and cultural meta context, and the reason the other characters didn't appear in Unleashed is more than likely a decision rooted in Sonic Team trying their best to distance themselves from Sonic 06 two years ago in part by paring down the cast to just the most recognizable faces, versus making stories that actually make sense within the fictional context of the world and its conflicts.

 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 minutes ago, Sparky said:

Eggman's letter said "Guess what Sonic Heroes". And apparently, the letter was delivered to Tails, who chose to get Knuckles to help first and then track down Sonic.

We don't know what Knuckles was doing in Unleashed. For all we know, he could have been out doing stuff and just hasn't ran into Sonic. The same could be said for Shadow. 

Okay, but answer the question:  If Eggman building a superweapon for the dozenth time is suppose to be enough for Knuckles to be away from his island and the Master Emerald, why didn't he do that in Unleashed when the world was shattered apart? What in Heroes' story prevents Sonic from acting without Knuckles's help? Because Knuckles could have stayed out of it and it wouldn't change Heroes' in the slightest compared to actually giving substance and justification to having Knuckles around.

Practically every character but him had justifications to being around. And what's more, none of Team's Rose, Chaotix, or Dark motives for being involved had anything to do with stopping Eggman's superweapon. So for a "global threat," it was pretty restricted over who was notified.

[blade57331]

8 minutes ago, Sparky said:

Both of those situations are different. In Sonic Heroes, the Master Emerald is already on Angel Island and safe and stuff, unlike in SA1 and SA2 where it's broken. Knuckles going out to fight Eggman with Sonic and Tails ensures that the Master Emerald and Angel Island will continue to be safe, and prevents the possibility of Eggman getting to Angel Island and the Master Emerald. 

by LEAVING IT completely alone on island to take for Rouge or someone else.

"Responsibility? Yeah I heard of it ones, it's a lovely taco"

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Like if Eggman (or Metal Sonic) actually showed interest and sent a group of robots on the island to take the Emerald, it would make greater sense for Knuckles to leave and tag along because now his island and Master Emerald is threaten and Eggman won't stop sending robots until he gets it. (of course, that goes without saying, he's still leaving the thing unguarded by doing this, so it's still not smart)

But the excuse is just flimsy compared to Rouge searching for Eggman's treasure, Shadow trying to rediscover his memories, Omega's revenge on his creator, the Chaotix being strapped for cash, and Team Rose looking for Sonic because they saw him kidnap Chocola and Froggy. It's basically Tails going to Knuckles and telling him to come and help stop Eggman - it makes sense for Sonic and Tails, less so for Knuckles because he has (or should have) his own desires and motivations rather than someone elses.

[blade57331]

32 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

No one knew of the events going on in SA1 to be able to conclude until it was too late that Chaos was going to destroy everything if he leveled up, thus there was no narrative incentive to call Knuckles for help. All Sonic and Tails were doing was engaging in a Chaos Emerald collectathon race with Eggman that they were handling decently well on their own, along with their own side quests and diversions. The same goes for everything going on in SA2 to a point; no one knew Eggman was gonna blow up the moon until he did it.

Heroes, unlike the Adventures, has a different narrative set-up and overall plot progression where Eggman (or rather Metal) is blatantly saying that he will basically fuck over the planet in three days' time, meaning there is no point in focusing on anything else except getting to him and stopping him.

 

The thing is that, for Knuckles M.E. was priority over helping Sonic in both SA1 and 2 (even after Eggman blowed up moon).

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Just now, blade57331 said:

 

by LEAVING IT completely alone on island to take for Rouge or someone else

Uh...was that a misquote or something?

[Diogenes]

It's 2016, are we really having The Knuckles Argument again?

I don't buy into the always-or-never (unless-the-ME-is-specifically-involved) view. I feel it's better to write in a specific reason for his appearance when possible, but I'm not going to be bothered by a handwavey "Tails called him and said 'get over here, shit's going down' so he did" so long as including him is genuinely beneficial to the game. Conversely, I don't want that sort of handwave abused to put him in any game that it could plausibly apply to, where his appearance isn't going to meaningfully improve things (see: '06). Ultimately, I care far less about how he gets involved with the story than I do what effect he has on the story (and it on him).

[AngelSlayerN64]

Shadow is the Arch-Rival to Sonic. Knuckles isn't a "true" rival like Jet and Metal Sonic are. That is all.

 

[Nepenthe]

12 minutes ago, blade57331 said:

The thing is that, for Knuckles M.E. was priority over helping Sonic in both SA1 and 2 (even after Eggman blowed up moon).

It was a priority until he saw that the situation had changed to warrant his assistance at certain points. In Heroes, the situation warranted his assistance from the beginning, thus there was technically no abandonment to be had. He was guarding the Emerald, got the call to help, and decided to help before the start of the game. Knuckles isn't obligated to base every single motivation- major or minor- around the Master Emerald.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

14 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It's 2016, are we really having The Knuckles Argument again?

Well, it hasn't been dealt with, so yah? Much like we're still having the "Sonic Shitty Friends" arguments as to why we can't have them playable, or the "Light or Dark Tone" argument as far as tonality in storytelling goes, or whatever-other-argument we're still having in 2016. It ain't gonna die just because you're now tired of it.

[Kuzu]

Because its not a Knuckles topic without us arguing whether he should leave the Master Emerald or not amirite :V

Look, if there is a big enough threat to the entire world, there is really no reason why Knuckles can't just come and help since a threat to the world will inevitably be a threat to him and the Master Emerald. It is completely nonsensical for him to continue guarding something from a potential threat instead of going towards to the threat to prevent it from coming in the first place.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

7 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Because its not a Knuckles topic without us arguing whether he should leave the Master Emerald or not amirite :V

Look, if there is a big enough threat to the entire world, there is really no reason why Knuckles can't just come and help since a threat to the world will inevitably be a threat to him and the Master Emerald. It is completely nonsensical for him to continue guarding something from a potential threat instead of going towards to the threat to prevent it from coming in the first place.

Except, no one is saying that he shouldn't? Even during the beginning, that's always been a collorary for Knuckles being around - the same people talking about him being a guardian are the same people wondering conversely why the hell he wasn't around in Unleashed when he had every reason to be involved regardless of the Master Emerald.

No one denies that if the threat is big enough then Knuckles should be allowed to help out. But that doesn't excuse flimsy and poorly presented reasoning for his involvement, which has been the central point the entire time. You want him going towards the threat? Can you at least give something with more substance that justifies it instead of "because Tails asked him"?

[Kuzu]

What's flimsy about Tails asking him to come save the world? 

Tails: yo Knuckles, Eggman said he's gonna fuck shit up in three days.

Knuckles: Oh shit word? Aight, let's get that dude Sonic and bounce. 

 

World is in danger, Tails gets Sonic & Knuckles, they go to fuck up Eggman; there's no lapses or holes in that logic anywhere.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

19 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

What's flimsy about Tails asking him to come save the world? 

Tails: yo Knuckles, Eggman said he's gonna fuck shit up in three days.

Knuckles: Oh shit word? Aight, let's get that dude Sonic and bounce. 

 

World is in danger, Tails gets Sonic & Knuckles, they go to fuck up Eggman; there's no lapses or holes in that logic anywhere.

Precisely what you just gave me. There's nothing solid in that which actually needs Knuckles or has anything to do with his motives or desires as a character. He's just there to be there, as opposed to everyone else who have something that they desire in it that gets them involved.

No, there's no lapses or holes in that logic (as opposed to other things it disregards), but there's no substance to it for Knuckles and is a cheap way to have him around compared to the other characters. Basically the same thing they did in Sonic 06, and the opposite of what they did in Unleashed.

[Diogenes]

11 minutes ago, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

Precisely what you just gave me. There's nothing solid in that which actually needs Knuckles or has anything to do with his motives or desires as a character. He's just there to be there, as opposed to everyone else who have something that they desire in it that gets them involved.

Knuckles is a friend and ally to Sonic and Tails, and the world being in danger involves his motivation of staying alive. I would agree that that alone isn't enough justification to include him in a game, but I think it's a justified way to insert him into the story, and thus is fine so long as they intend to do something more meaningful with him within the story.

[Heckboy]

He's Sonic and Tails's closest friend, and they wanted help. That's his motive: he wants to help his friends, even if he has to put his duty aside now and then in order to do so.

External reason is that they needed a power type character on Team Sonic.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Knuckles is a friend and ally to Sonic and Tails, and the world being in danger involves his motivation of staying alive. I would agree that that alone isn't enough justification to include him in a game, but I think it's a justified way to insert him into the story, and thus is fine so long as they intend to do something more meaningful with him within the story.

Mmkay, except they did nothing meaningful with him in the story, and he's still there just to be there. You use that as a way to insert him into the story...and then go absolutely nowhere with the character. You'd have been better off leaving him out if that's the case and just let Sonic and Tails handle it like they've always done before.

7 minutes ago, Mister X said:

He's Sonic and Tails's closest friend, and they wanted help. That's his motive: he wants to help his friends, even if he has to put his duty aside now and then in order to do so.

Which still the same flimsy reason I was just previously given.

[Nepenthe]

The necessity of the characters is established by what they do during the majority of the plot, not by why they're in the story to begin with. If Knuckles was pocketing the Master Emerald in Heroes as an excuse to explain the Master Emerald's whereabouts, it still wouldn't change the size or nature of his supporting role because the Master Emerald is not directly related to anything that happens in the rest of the story.

And remember: Sonic doesn't need Tails most of the time either in Heroes and plenty of other games, either because he already knows how to fly the Tornado or can just travel to places on his own, Tails is espousing information which Sonic could rationally deduce on his own, or Tails- exactly like Knuckles in Heroes- is just a support character who isn't necessary beyond being support in service to the overall goal of not dying (which in and of itself is actually okay), and yet this isn't an argument leveled at Tails by most people as often with the exception of me and people who hate his Unleashed appearance. xP

The problem at this point isn't even the Master Emerald. It's just what one's personal threshold is for character writing in this series is. However, these two things seem to be constantly conflated, thus Knuckles gets shit on more often for this, almost to the point that the argument is exclusive to him, and it's not really convincing.

[Heckboy]

6 minutes ago, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

Mmkay, except they did nothing meaningful with him in the story, and he's still there just to be there. You use that as a way to insert him into the story...and then go absolutely nowhere with the character. You'd have been better off leaving him out if that's the case and just let Sonic and Tails handle it like they've always done before.

Which still the same flimsy reason I was just previously given.

They couldn't have it just be Sonic and Tails because Heroes is a game about teams of three (speed, flight, power), ergo they needed a power-type for each, ergo Knuckles was made a part of Team Sonic. The gameplay came first, story came later.

Heroes has a dozen main characters, and the plots for each team aren't exactly complex, least of all for Team Sonic. It's an adventure with a bunch of simple stories all culminating in a fight with Metal Sonic. Not everyone's going to get some super fleshed-out reason for being there. Knuckles is there because he's one of the three main characters, they needed a power-type on Team Sonic, and he wanted to help out. They don't need to put the Master Emerald/Angel Island into every single game with Knuckles in order to justify his presence. In a game like Heroes (where one character's goal is simply to marry Sonic), a character getting a letter saying, "I'm going to rule the world in three days," and said character deciding, "I better leave and help my friends, this could be bad!" is justification enough.