acknowledging my favorite Sonic games are bad while thinking the opposite

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I figure it it soo big to write in a status so I will make a thread on it:

Here's a question. I know people can like shit games as I like plenty of them myself and still know that they are shit games. However there are people who do say that you can't say the game is shit if you enjoy it. Is that true? For example, I love Sonic 4 Episode 1 (i use this one because this game i literally play the most out of any Sonic game I've ever owned) and I have it on all the platforms and I put in over 100 hours on XBL for this game. To me, it is a very enjoyable experience, however I do know that as a classic game, it is a shit game and also from a critical standpoint.

Same with Sonic 06. I love this game as it is my first Sonic game and I know it is a terrible game. However, if I enjoy the game, does that mean that technically, I don't think it is a terrible game? I say it is a terrible game based on critics and gaming standpoints (the facts). Sonic UnWiished is another I enjoy alot, however I will acknowledge that it is not only a shit port, but I am possibly the only one who likes it more than the HD version. However, if I enjoy it, does it mean I don't believe it is shit? The facts are, Wii/PS2 version is shit, but my opinion, I think they are amazing.

Yeah I am super confused. Is this another case of fact vs opinion? I want to see other's views on this. 

[Failinhearts]

The problem that came with your statements regarding games like Sonic 4 is that it felt like two different personalities. One minute, you're stating how bad Sonic 4 is, giving the impression that it's a game you hate and the next you say that you love it. Let me give you an example of how it feels like and tell me what vibes you get from each one.

"Man, Transformers 2007 was such shit. It might as well be called Sam: The Movie starring the Transformers."

"I sure did have a fun time with Transformers 2007! It's no perfect movie, but I found it enjoyable!"

See what I mean? It feels like I'm arguing with myself rather than still retaining the same opinion. You can still bring up the flaws and shortcomings of a product, but don't go out of your way to state your criticisms to the point where it doesn't even feel like the same opinion anymore.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Yeah. A big issue is you didn't state "despite my issues, I enjoyed this", but rather, you went full on "This game is nothing but complete shit" and then harp on about over and over again to be part of a bandwagon. As I said before, it's about being balanced in your opinion that doesn't make the statements hypocritical. I like Sonic Heroes, and find that the positives are there and are good, but I won't pretend there aren't issues. It doesn't mean I will begin to start calling it a piece of complete shit that no one should ever play, as obviously if I enjoyed it, there's gotta be something to enjoy. What went wrong with your Sonic 4 thing for example was you liked it, you loved it enough to call yourself the queen of the game, which is all well and good, but then you joined a bandwagon of hating it for reasons that you yourself didn't even agree with (The comparsions to Sonic 1 and 2 being big examples, since you're in the same boat as me, and dislike both of those games).

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

With my Wii Unleashed example, everyone and their brothers hates the game, right? Even the critics who study games have said it was terrible. Therefore it is a fact that it is terrible. I really do enjoy the game. I do know it is very possible to enjoy something that factually is a piece of shit game, but does that mean I am wrestling with the critics with this?

[Daisy-Fan]

I did tolerate Unleashed Ps2/Wii Version somewhat, but i didn't enjoyed Sonic 4. maybe because i dont like the mobility play? this doesn't feel like an actual sequel to S3&K, its maybe why I'm a bit disappointing of that title.

edited)

[Failinhearts]

Just now, Mikyeong said:

With my Wii Unleashed example, everyone and their brothers hates the game, right? Even the critics who study games have said it was terrible. Therefore it is a fact that it is terrible. I really do enjoy the game. I do know it is very possible to enjoy something that factually is a piece of shit game, but does that mean I am wrestling with the critics with this?

You're taking the opinions of others too personally. If you legitimately like the game, express it. You don't need to excessively jump on it just because a bunch of people do it. (Excessively is the key word here)

[Ryannumber1gamer]

11 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

With my Wii Unleashed example, everyone and their brothers hates the game, right? Even the critics who study games have said it was terrible. Therefore it is a fact that it is terrible. I really do enjoy the game. I do know it is very possible to enjoy something that factually is a piece of shit game, but does that mean I am wrestling with the critics with this?

Not true. From a fanbase point of view, a lot of people see Unleashed as superior on HD. However, from a critical standpoint, the reviews are actually higher for the PS2 and Wii versions of the game. 

However, you're wrong. It isn't a fact it's terrible. That's completely subjective. Good, Bad, Terrible, Brilliant, it's all words that come from our opinions. I personally find the original Metal Gear Solid to be a broken mess in terms of it's stealth mechanics for the simple fact that trying to quickly take down enemies doesn't work if you are walking, which is a problem when most enemies in the game are walking. Therefore, I personally feel the original MGS in terms of gameplay is a bad game. Others on the other hand see it as a masterpiece that has stood the test of time. It's all about opinions. There may be popular and unpopular opinions, but at the end of the day, that's still what they are, opinions. A review, or a friends' opinion on a game are never fact because it's literally impossible to label a game as terrible as fact. If that were to be true, then every single person on the planet would need to label it as that, and considering even Rise of Lyric has fans, I have high doubts that's going to happen anytime soon.

[E-van]

5 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

With my Wii Unleashed example, everyone and their brothers hates the game, right? Even the critics who study games have said it was terrible. Therefore it is a fact that it is terrible. I really do enjoy the game. I do know it is very possible to enjoy something that factually is a piece of shit game, but does that mean I am wrestling with the critics with this?

Well, just because the critics think a game is bad doesn't mean everyone has to think it's bad. It's not like their opinions are the only ones that matter.

For example, according to the critics, Sonic Unleashed (PS3) was an awful game, but to me, it's a great game.

[Zaysho]

What someone takes away from a work or how they feel about it is subjective. You can think critically about a work and examine it, acknowledging its flaws or shortcomings without coming to the conclusion that "it's shit." Of course, that IS a possible response someone can have to a work, and I admit it's a valid one in its own right, I don't believe it's the ONLY response someone can have just because it's not that good.

For example, I actually enjoy Shadow the Hedgehog. It's a game that I find myself popping into my Gamecube every so often and just running through for fun. I'm well aware of the game's problems, and even have a few with it myself, but there are still things about it I happen to enjoy or find interesting about it that I don't necessarily feel like I'm suffering (or whatever over-dramatic nonsense people say they feel when they pick up these games). It's just a flawed game that I happen to like, and don't necessarily feel the problems completely detract from my experience. Most I do is not take it seriously and kind of shake my head at a script both Sonic Team and SEGA of America's localization team considered acceptable.

In the end, like what you like. If you enjoy something even if, on a technical level, it's just not that good, that's perfectly fine. Just be honest and recognize why people may not like it, but don't necessarily let that flip your opinion completely. Think critically and make up your own mind.

[Adamabba]

There are certain standards a game should have to qualify as "good" in gaming culture, and critics are who tell you whether the game has them or not. You can still enjoy a game even if it doesn't have those standards.

It doesn't have to matter whether a game is good or bad if you enjoy it

 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Just now, Falonso14 said:

Well, just because the critics think a game is bad doesn't mean everyone has to think it's bad. It's not like their opinions are the only ones that matter.

For example, according to the critics, Sonic Unleashed (PS3) was an awful game, but to me, it's a great game.

Wasn't it just the one critic that liked PS2 Unleashed better? IGN?

Either way, I do still enjoy UnWiished.

[Agie]

Likewise, I've already brought up the Star Wars prequels.

They have plot holes, awkward dialogue, characters doing stupid things, poor acting, and they relied on CGI more than they should have.

But I like them in spite of that.

I look at my favorite character in all of fiction, Amitie. Thing is, I can see how her ditzyness, her clothing styles, and even her voice won't appeal to everyone. I could see how people could think she's...*gulp*...annoying. How she looks silly, or that her hat(s) look stupid. Even in gameplay, she plays similarly to Arle.

I highly disagree with those people and I still love her to bits...but I can see where they're coming from, for better or for worse.

Heck, look at Brian Michael Bendis' run on the Guardians of the Galaxy comics. Retcons, some personality changes, even more of a focus on Earth stories despite Earth already having plenty of superheroes to save the day. Didn't stop me from enjoying what I read anyways.

Heck, I'm watching the Animax dub of Cardcaptor Sakura. So far, the worst thing I've bumped into is a few words being a tad mispronounced, but not only has it not popped up often outside character names (maybe), it doesn't even bother me when it does.

But plenty of people hate the dub anyways. Now that one, I don't see why, but I suppose if I had been introduced through Nelvana's dub (which I barely even remember), or (coming soon in my watchthrough once I get through the series) the second film's dub (uncut, but Poineer/Geneon used BangZoom), I'd understand.

But that's just how I feel. There's no "fact" about whether or not something's terrible. Only opinion. You like Sonic 4 and Sonic Unleashed Wii? I like 'em too, myself. Others don't. That's the only fact.

Opinions are just how you feel about a work, that's all. Them saying it's bad is their opinion. You saying you like it is yours.

[E-van]

Just now, Mikyeong said:

Wasn't it just the one critic that liked PS2 Unleashed better? IGN?

Either way, I do still enjoy UnWiished.

That's not my point. Either way, Unleashed PS3/360 wasn't received well by critics, regardless of how it was compared to the Wii/PS2 version.

[Failinhearts]

2 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

Wasn't it just the one critic that liked PS2 Unleashed better? IGN?

Either way, I do still enjoy UnWiished.

One critic or one HUNDRED critics, does it really matter?

Embrace that you like UnWiished.

Gonna give an example similar to @SurrealBrain. I love Sayaka to death. People find her annoying, whiny, weak and inferior to the other Magical Girls. I whole-heartedly disagree, but I see where they're coming from. Sayaka still remains as my favorite character of all time despite that. Hell, even the writer has some sort of death wish with Sayaka, abusing her and whatnot. Still love her,

[Ryannumber1gamer]

And on top of that, Professional Critics aren't even that reliable. There's numerous scandals where developers bought their positive reviews, and it's even well known that Sonic games specifically have had a hatred from Critics regardless of actual quality, to the point where people who positively reviewed Generations tried to go back on it as soon as it became cool to hate Sonic again.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

10 minutes ago, Falonso14 said:

That's not my point. Either way, Unleashed PS3/360 wasn't received well by critics, regardless of how it was compared to the Wii/PS2 version.

No wonder people keep saying Unwiished is overrated lmao 

Another game I really enjoy is Sonic Lost World, though i also acknowledge is it a mediocre game 

[Agie]

You acknowledge its flaws, but still enjoy it. It's not really that complicated.

[Failinhearts]

2 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

No wonder people keep saying Unwiished is overrated lmao 

Another game I really enjoy is Sonic Lost World, though i also acknowledge is it a mediocre game 

But again, don't go crazy when it comes to speaking how you think it's mediocre or you'll give the wrong impression. 

Just now, SurrealBrain said:

You acknowledge its flaws, but still enjoy it. It's not really that complicated.

Exactly. It's not rocket science. Heck, you don't have to say it's "mediocre" or "shit". Just acknowledge the shortcomings. Anything else is unnecessary and feels like you're trying to be on two sides at once.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

It can be confusing though. Just look at Sonic 06 defenders. That was kinda the reason why I made this topic as there are people who say that you can't think Sonic 06 is bad if you don't enjoy it. Yet, if I went up to anyone and told them Sonic 06 is a good game, I will be chased out of town. 

[Agie]

Just say you enjoyed it. Don't even say that it's good, bad, mediocre, etc. If they chase you out of town for saying you liked it, it's them that should be ashamed, not you.

[Rusty Spy]

11 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

With my Wii Unleashed example, everyone and their brothers hates the game, right? Even the critics who study games have said it was terrible. Therefore it is a fact that it is terrible. I really do enjoy the game. I do know it is very possible to enjoy something that factually is a piece of shit game, but does that mean I am wrestling with the critics with this?

General consensus =/= fact

No game is objectively good or bad. We define a game's quality, and all other works of art, based on a general set of agreed upon criteria. But what's generally agreed upon isn't absolutely agreed upon; everyone has their own personal tastes, some of which may directly contradict popular opinion. It's not about simply acknowledging something you like is 'bad', it's about understanding where your opinions differ from the norm and why they differ. Don't feel like you need to validate your opinion by subscribing to what everyone else thinks. If you like something that everyone else hates don't undermine your own opinion by seeing it as something you "shouldn't like".

[Failinhearts]

Just now, Mikyeong said:

It can be confusing though. Just look at Sonic 06 defenders. That was kinda the reason why I made this topic as there are people who say that you can't think Sonic 06 is bad if you don't enjoy it. Yet, if I went up to anyone and told them Sonic 06 is a good game, I will be chased out of town. 

Objectively, Sonic 06 is a flawed, flawed, flawed game.

There are more subtle ways to handle this situation. Instead of saying "Shitnic 06", how about saying:

"Yes, objectively Sonic 06 is an incredibly flawed game. However, I still enjoy it."

It carries along that same point, doesn't it?

[Speederino]

I'm sure this is sounding repetitive but, yeah, you're worrying way too much about the opinions of others. So what if some people hate a thing you like or vice versa? I honestly enjoy Sonic 4 Episode 1 and do NOT like Episode 2 much at all. If I'm playing through Unleashed from start to finish, I prefer the Wii version. I fucking loved Man of Steel. Despite the recent internet backlash that's sprung up, Skyrim is one of my favorite games of all time (maybe even the numero uno, if my total playtime is anything to go off of). On the flipside, I found the acclaimed Zelda: Skyward Sword to be average at best and couldn't get into the beloved Beyond Good & Evil at all.

I don't care what other audiences felt with these things. They are not me, and I am not them. As Rusty Spy put it, general concensous =/= fact. There's no real way to measure the objective quality of a subjective experience. Oh sure, you can try; and people do all the time, even on this very forum. But at the end of the day, SuperAngstyShadowFanWakeMeUpInside503948394's strong opinions on Sonic Heroes is just meaningless babble on the internet. Try a thing and judge its quality based on YOUR thoughts, feelings, and experiences. Don't let faceless avatars guilt you because you don't share their opinions,  or let them insist that you HAVE to acknowledge something is wrong with a game or film or whatever in order to like it. Who are they to tell you what to think?

Just be you.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

10 minutes ago, Farmerino said:

I honestly enjoy Sonic 4 Episode 1 and do NOT like Episode 2

Shit, I thought i was the only one! I am the same way with these games. I hate Episode 2 but Episode 1 is my all time favorite 2D Sonic game, and then comes Sonic 1

[Speederino]

1 hour ago, Mikyeong said:

Shit, I thought i was the only one! I am the same way with these games. I hate Episode 2 but Episode 1 is my all time favorite 2D Sonic game, and then comes Sonic 1

That's another thing: never assume you are the only one with a specific opinion. Just because they aren't being vocal about it on the internet doesn't mean they aren't out there