Do you think Sally should have been/should be killed off?

[Flyboy Fox]

1) Address my second point. Fans who have their own personal interests in the book aren't going to care to act on it regardless. The fans that run the book have also had a habit of lying to the editor to convince them to do things in their favor as was the case with love and loss

2) Despite how obvious it is to me, even if point one was incorrect, that doesnt mean that everyone catches on at the same pace. And also since, Pellirito hasn't overseen everything that Gabrie did, when they were originally going to get rid of Sally and pair Sonic with Amy just before practically ENTIRE management changed.

This doesn't change the fact that if it's so bleeding obvious they would have noticed and acted on it.

Uhh the fact that at least 50% wanted her dead by endgame?

I said 'now'. Not at Endgame.

Also, bear in mind that people who hate something tend to be far more vocal than those who don't mind. The 50% figure is most likely a huge exaggeration in reality, which is something they obviously knew.

The fact most of Sonic's fans are game fans who hate Sally?

How daft. "Most" of Sonic's fans are casual gamers who don't even know who Sally is. You're coming across as someone projecting their own character hatred onto the masses. It doesn't help your cause at all.

The fact that in every other media Sonic's franchise love interest is some other girl which the targetted fanbase has been exposed to for 10-11 years?

Archie Sonic stemmed from SatAM, rather than directly from the games. That's a totally irrelevent point. Apples and oranges. Doesn't mean Sally is unpopular, just that she obviously doesn't feature in current media that's based on the games.

If you look at Sally's personality in SatAM and what it is in the comics (at least when I was still reading it, my last issue was 164), she barely seems like the same person. Comic Sally is an exaggerated-to-the-extreme version of her SatAM self who's practically in perma-bitch mode.

I wasn't reading the comic around the time they were actually considering killing her off, so I can't judge to say whether it would have been good or not, but I do think that Sally at the very least needed to be written better in the comics, at least during the four years I was reading them.

This I agree with. She changed for the worst in the comics. But I fully believe that, as a character, she is redeemable.

[Viuely]

I said 'now'. Not at Endgame.

Also, bear in mind that people who hate something tend to be far more vocal than those who don't mind. The 50% figure is most likely a huge exaggeration in reality, which is something they obviously knew.

No....no and no. Actually Sally's fans had just as much of a need to vocalize about their love for the character, and their distraught attitude about her being dead during a time where BOTH fans needed to speak out about it, so I don't think it's an exaggeration at all, considering the save our Sally sites and what not that caused a huge outcry at the time. Yet 50% at the least of people to have wanted her dead at the time. Not only that, but consider the fact SEGA saved her because they were toying with the idea of using her, only to scrap her for Tiara Boobowski for Sonic Extreme.

How daft. "Most" of Sonic's fans are casual gamers who don't even know who Sally is. You're coming across as someone projecting their own character hatred onto the masses. It doesn't help your cause at all.

And most of those who do hate her, mainly because they've been exposed and tend to perfer Amy Rose by comparison, or the fact that Sally's grrl power mythos is out of style and somewhat counter culture. Sonic's game fanbase has over 100 times more fans than the comic book. For every comic book fan there's probably at least 50 game fans.

Archie Sonic stemmed from SatAM, rather than directly from the games. That's a totally irrelevent point. Apples and oranges. Doesn't mean Sally is unpopular, just that she obviously doesn't feature in current media that's based on the games.

Which is why Ian's going through so many legnths to hook game fans and its still not working. Archie stemmed from SatAM, but that doesn't mean its not going to seem contrived for fans who didn't grow up with it, a problem that the comic is flipping over backwards at trying to fix.

This I agree with. She changed for the worst in the comics. But I fully believe that, as a character, she is redeemable.

I really don't think so, because of her 1990's archetype that's been long since dead, I don't think her SatAM characterization will offer much relief if people wanted her dead back when the motif was more popular, and she embodied it more.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Viuely

[Miko]

This doesn't change the fact that if it's so bleeding obvious they would have noticed and acted on it.

It's not bleedingly obvious.

1. People who like Sally are runnning the book and are relatively stubborn about keeping her there to the extent plotholes were made for this to be possible.

2. The peak period of the comic was around issue 50. By the time current management came in the overwhelming majority of people who DID hate Sally seem to have left or are in the process of leaving. They would not be aware of the extent people found this character to be annoying. Secondly game fans who don't like her impact to the book will simply not read it. They're not going to get involved in the story enough to give a damn about writing a letter. And these are the guys Archie has been wanting to cash in on by adding more game elements.

3. Those that understood fan feedback about Sally and were there at it's peak period DID get rid of her. Karl shoved her ass in a palace and was if anything increasing Amy's spotlight and intended to make her the love interest.

I said 'now'. Not at Endgame.

Maybe you don't understand the signifficance OF Endgame. It was a peak period in the comics sales and by that point half of everyone reading AT LEAST wanted her dead. Which means the gradual loss of these people who were turned off by her among perhaps a few other factors. The fanbase was much bigger then it is now, which means if we consider these people who left the book hating her that badly, you've got a lot more people who do hate her. Ironically, the sales picked up in recent years when she was shoe horned back in the kitchen, lol.

How daft. "Most" of Sonic's fans are casual gamers who don't even know who Sally is. You're coming across as someone projecting their own character hatred onto the masses. It doesn't help your cause at all.

And most fans who do come across this character hate her to high heaven. Why should we have reason to beleive she'd be good for hooking game fans with our present sample of fans (which is valid as long as it has 100+ people considered)?

Archie Sonic stemmed from SatAM, rather than directly from the games. That's a totally irrelevent point.

1. Archie stemmed from multiple continuities, not just SatAM.

2. Archie's SatAM esque phase is over.

3.The present age audience won't know about SatAM.

Apples and oranges. Doesn't mean Sally is unpopular, just that she obviously doesn't feature in current media that's based on the games.

You're right, inherently it probably wouldn't. But she's still disliked among our sample of the fanbase.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Miko

[redmenace]

I don't like Sally, never did, never will. She's annoying, clichéd and spotlight stealer. I don't like her and I'm glad she's not in my games. I'm indifferent to Archie. I have it so I can stare at the pretty drawings of Sonic. Neither the story or the characters portrayls interests me, save for some exceptions (Robotnik). She dying would make me happy to a degree. That would mean they'd focus on other characters besides shoeing her in every chance they got, eve if it's unapropriate. It would diminuish my tantrums with the comic, that's for sure. At least I wouldn't scream WHY ARE YOU HERE, YOU'RE NOT NEEDED, YOU'RE RUINING THE FUN I WAS HAVING that happens most of the time.~

I agree with the OP though. A character loving another just because he's a hero (as in brave/free to kick some enemy arse) it's not love. No matter what, Ginny/Harry fell flat on it's face because it tried to emulate this and it sucked. And I'm a G/H fan, but I can't accept hero worship is love. People get all annoyed because of Amy's crush and then let this pass without a word.

I've seen people getting banned and warned for far less. Stop baiting. Contrarily to what you expected, this topic isn't derailing so it won't be closed just because it's uncomfortable to you.

Edited July 23, 2009 by redmenace

[Flyboy Fox]

No....no and no. Actually Sally's fans had just as much of a need to vocalize about their love for the character, and their distraught attitude about her being dead during a time where BOTH fans needed to speak out about it, so I don't think it's an exaggeration at all, considering the save our Sally sites and what not that caused a huge outcry at the time. Yet 50% at the least of people to have wanted her dead at the time. Not only that, but consider the fact SEGA saved her because they were toying with the idea of using her, only to scrap her for Tiara Boobowski for Sonic Extreme.

Sally was saved and there was no real outcry over it. Clearly she wasn't THAT hated.

And most of those who do hate her, mainly because they've been exposed and tend to perfer Amy Rose by comparison, or the fact that Sally's grrl power mythos is out of style and somewhat counter culture. Sonic's game fanbase has over 100 times more fans than the comic book. For every comic book fan there's probably at least 50 game fans.

Again, you're projecting. Where are all these Sally-hating game fans? There may be a proportion, but unless you can back up your "most who do [know her] hate her" claim, I'm going to dismiss it as total hyperbole. You may want it to be true, but that doesn't make it true.

And of course the games have more fans. That's completely irrelevant, too, and has nothing to do with Sally. The comic was never intended to rival the game fanbase!

Which is why Ian's going through so many legnths to hook game fans and its still not working. Archie stemmed from SatAM, but that doesn't mean its not going to seem contrived for fans who didn't grow up with it, a problem that the comic is flipping over backwards at trying to fix.

It's not working because the comic fanbase and the game fanbase are practically two different entities. in all the Archie fangroups I'm in, most of the people I talk to love the fact that it's so different from the games (and I've yet to come across any Sally-hate).

I really don't think so, because of her 1990's archetype that's been long since dead, I don't think her SatAM characterization will offer much relief if people wanted her dead back when the motif was more popular, and she embodied it more.

She doesn't have to be a clone of her SatAM self. I actually think she's improved lately, to be honest.

[Miko]

From what we can sample online we can gather most people with a fleeting knowledge of this character typically do not like her. I think it's imperative to argue on behalf of what the youth and the game fans want because this is what Ian is targetting for more fans.

...But at the same time I feel that discussing a fanbase outside that is equally important if not moreso because there are more potnetial viewers if your ideas good enough. Even if we don't consider game fans by Endgame the majority hated her ass and there were far more fans who've left since.

It's not working because the comic fanbase and the game fanbase are practically two different entities.

But Ian's targetting them as readers regardless of what you think. He's been trying to merge the two concepts togther more and more. Even if it means resorting to plotholes or Charmy getting brain damage to be a 6 year old. But even if we consider the two different entities what about the fact that when the comic locked her in the palace sales were increasing? What about all the people who'd left after Endgame?

At least I wouldn't scream WHY ARE YOU HERE, YOU'RE NOT NEEDED, YOU'RE RUINING THE FUN I WAS HAVING that happens most of the time

..Why the hell is she here? The other characters got by fine without her, she accepted this and left Freedom Fighting to contribute to the world as a emotional support columnist in the palace and all of a sudden she's back despite knowing she's useless and leaving it for another job that would practically keep her in an office full time.

Sally was saved and there was no real outcry over it.

Comic figures would suggest otherwise. And second of all, Ken did address it in a story where Sonic had a dream and a chronicler of his adventures complained he should've died a matyr. What was there to complain about. They TOLD Archie what they wanted and they ultimately said to the fans they weren't going to listen much as they're doing now. So to them there's nothing left to do BUT to leave. And leave they did.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Miko

[Flyboy Fox]

From what we can sample online we can gather most people with a fleeting knowledge of this character typically do not like her. I think it's imperative to argue on behalf of what the youth and the game fans want because this is what Ian is targetting for more fans.

Again, statements with no back-up. I do know of game fans who dislike Sally (mostly on principle, rather than as a character), but I also know plenty who couldn't care less or who are perfectly fine with her. I think the game fans who dislike her mostly feel threatened by a lead female who isn't Amy rather than disliking her for any profound reason. But I still don't see ANY evidence that this is a majority.

...But at the same time I feel that discussing a fanbase outside that is equally important if not moreso because there are more potnetial viewers if your ideas good enough. Even if we don't consider game fans by Endgame the majority hated her ass and there were far more fans who've left since.

I do not see any proof that large numbers dropped off solely (or even mostly) because of Sally.

However, let me ask this:

Is it your honest belief that killing off Sally will not cause a major backlash and will in fact improve comic sales? Because that's a mighty big claim to make.

[Miko]

I do not see any proof that large numbers dropped off solely (or even mostly) because of Sally.

I'm not going to argue on behalf of Sally being the only factor, but I wouldn't be surprised if she were, or that she weren't a big reason for people. She was second only to Sonic in her signfficance as a protaganist. People wanted her dead. To repeat: They wanted a character who practically rivaled Sonic in signifficance dead and to NEVER come back.

Is it your honest belief that killing off Sally will not cause a major backlash and will in fact improve comic sales? Because that's a mighty big claim to make.

We've already removed her, and it's improved comic sales. Just look at what happened when she got shoved in the palace and was cut off from Sonic and everyone else.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Miko

[Viuely]

Sally was saved and there was no real outcry over it. Clearly she wasn't THAT hated.

From what we can garner on the internet AT THAT TIME at least (then again less people even USED the internet back then). And second of all, if you're happy seeing Sally dead, naturally you wouldn't waste the effort writing a letter about it. Now its more painfully obvious. However Ken had access to more than just the vocal internet fanbase--who he says paled in comparison to the non internet fanbase opinion. Second of all, please don't ignore the fact she was still scrapped for Tiara.

Again, you're projecting. Where are all these Sally-hating game fans?

The internet? It's been this way ever since gaming Amy fans hate Sally because she's:

A. Not Amy

B. Makes Sonic seem stupid is one I constantly get from people

C. not a "SEGASonic" character--which is an incorrectly used term from gametards.

D. She doesn't look like a game character (one of the redeeming qualities gamers felt about Mina and Scourge).

E. She's naked. And her seemingly constant relationships with other male characters gave her the reputation of being a slut.

The TPOSA that was made to protect Sally from the countless flaming she's been getting. The countless people who've bashed Sally on FF.net because they hate her in comparison to the people who make Archie fanfiction period. The people on DA who make anti clubs about Sally far more than they do about Amy or...pretty much any other character that I can think of really. She's not that adored on the SEGA boards either.

And of course the games have more fans. That's completely irrelevant, too, and has nothing to do with Sally. The comic was never intended to rival the game fanbase

Which is why Ian is implementing more game elements and it's still not working!

It's not working because the comic fanbase and the game fanbase are practically two different entities. in all the Archie fangroups I'm in, most of the people I talk to love the fact that it's so different from the games (and I've yet to come across any Sally-hate).

Of course you've yet to come across any Sally hate because the people who left were the ones who hated her. Go to deviantart, where Amy fans go and join and make countless "anti clubs" as to why they hate Sally and want her to die, as that place has a more diverse pool of people.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Viuely

[redmenace]

Again, statements with no back-up. I do know of game fans who dislike Sally (mostly on principle, rather than as a character), but I also know plenty who couldn't care less or who are perfectly fine with her. I think the game fans who dislike her mostly feel threatened by a lead female who isn't Amy rather than disliking her for any profound reason. But I still don't see ANY evidence that this is a majority.

For someone who's demanding evidence for the gamers disliking Sally you've got a lot of nerve declaring that they hate her because of Amy, when you have no proof either. The irony is overwhelming.

It's obvious that if +50% wanted Sally gone at Endgame and she wasn't, that it was authorial preference, so it doesn't matter how many people complain or leave the comic. It's also obvious she's not going to be put on a bus right now, when Ian is a SonicXSally fan as well. I'd say this is a reason why this fellow should be kicked out. He has no professionalism to understand the difference between author appeal and what's good for the series.

And of course Archie wants to catter to the gamers otherwise why would they keep trying to incorporate things from there? In light of this, it makes no sense demeaning the game characters (Tails and Amy) to the expense of the Freedom Fighters (Sally). She should have been in the sidelines for awhile now, on the far sidelines. But no, she's still there. Blatant author appeal. I'm glad no one cares and the comic is falling down the charts.

Edited July 23, 2009 by redmenace

[Flyboy Fox]

For someone who's demanding evidence for the gamers disliking Sally you've got a lot of nerve saying that they hate her because of Amy. The irony is overwhelming.

I said "I think". I'm not making a statement. That's not irony, it's my guess. I don't know for sure. Why so defensive?

It's obvious that if +50% wanted Sally gone at Endgame and she wasn't, that it was authorial preference, so it doesn't matter how many people complain or leave the comic. It's also obvious she's not going to be put on a bus right now, when Ian is a SonicXSally fan as well. I'd say this is a reason why this fellow should be kicked out. He has no professionalism to understand the difference between author appeal and what's good for the series.

Of course it matters. They're not idiots. They understand their fanbase much better than some random shmuck (you or I) on the internet.

And of course Archie wants to catter to the gamers otherwise why would they keep trying to incorporate things from there? In light of this, it makes no sense demeaning the game characters (Tails and Amy) to the expense of the Freedom Fighters (Sally). She should have been in the sidelines for awhile now, on the far sidelines. But no, she's still there. Blatant author appeal. I'm glad no one cares and the comic is falling down the charts.

Nope. It's called balance. Why would the comic change the entirety of what it is? Keep some things the same, change others.

[Miko]

I'm glad no one cares and the comic is falling down the charts.

You. Me. Restauraunt of your choice when this comic dies. I'd much rather see it go than get abused the way it's been.

Nope. It's called balance. Why would the comic change the entirety of what it is? Keep some things the same, change others.

That's why Ian's shoehorned just about every reocurring game character into the series. I mean really a main cast of Sonic,Sally,Amy,Rotor,Antoine,Knuckles,Bunnie,Julie-su,Vector,Charmy,Espio, and on a potentially off chance Shadow? To keep up with the games the comics have totally ran over concepts that previously made it unique. As well. Julian Robotnik? No he didn't exist it was always Eggman! And many other things.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Miko

[Flyboy Fox]

You. Me. Restauraunt of your choice when this comic dies.

Any more of that and this topic gets a lock. Hate threads are not permitted. If this thread turns into one, it closes.

[Miko]

I'd much rather see it go than get abused the way it's been.

I elaborated in an edit that you probably didn't catch. It's not that I can't like the comic or even hate everything about it. I just hate how much its getting abused lately and would much rather be left with fonder memories.

[Pelly <3's U]

I've seen people getting banned and warned for far less. Stop baiting. Contrarily to what you expected, this topic isn't derailing so it won't be closed just because it's uncomfortable to you.

People have been banned for a picture post, wha? I didn't know you were privy to the staff forum and knew the reason for warns/bans. If you don't want to this topic to close then don't go acting like a mod, that's usually a big reason for things getting out of control in topics. The report button is there for a reason and this topic is actually seeming dangerously close to being locked from the responses I see.

ahaha sniped to it by Flyboy, the ultra mod.

[Miko]

Honestly i don't see what's wrong with keeping it open. It's not at all really a huge flame fest with people calling one another stupid or anything, just an active exchange of opinions. I bring the idea of discussing should Sally die because of the IMPACT it would have to the story. It is not simply about "hate" its about discussing

a. would it bring more fans

and

b. Would it help the story to do so.

I'd hope that we can focus more on these two points in particular.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Miko

[redmenace]

I said "I think". I'm not making a statement. That's not irony, it's my guess. I don't know for sure. Why so defensive?

It is ironic, because you dismiss the other poster's reply as not important because you think it's opinion and then you counter that thought with another opinion.

Of course it matters. They're not idiots. They understand their fanbase much better than some random shmuck (you or I) on the internet.

I'm sorry but if the majority of the fanbase wanted her dead, then they wanted her dead. That majority wouldn't be sorry she was dead. They do not understand the fanbase? Of course they did. But did they listened to it? No, otherwise she would be dead. It was author appeal.

Nope. It's called balance. Why would the comic change the entirety of what it is? Keep some things the same, change others.

Because the comic has more than ten years already. It has to evolve. It's the natural course of things. Otherwise it will stall in time and fade away. SatAM is gone for ten years already. The change from that to another setting should have happened already. I'm not saying she should be dead. I'm saying she should be taking the sidelines and not hog Tails' place, or Amy's place or any other character's place. Her being Sonic's friend makes Tails redundant. Her being Sonic's love interest makes Amy redundant. Her being the brain of opperations makes Sonic (and Tails) redundant. Her being the one that hangs out with Sonic when he needs a hand renders Knuckles redundant. She's redundant. She should be where Bunny is. Present and appearing every now and then. Not in Tails' place. If they wanted to keep their SatAM rooster than they shouldn't have included anything from the games. But then, of course... People like me who like to see good Sonic drawings would probably not buy that comic. Or people that like seeing Tails/Knuckles/Amy/Eggman/Sonic as the centre of everying.

Edited July 23, 2009 by redmenace

[Viuely]

People have been banned for a picture post, wha? I didn't know you were privy to the staff forum and knew the reason for warns/bans. If you don't want to this topic to close then don't go acting like a mod, that's usually a big reason for things getting out of control in topics. The report button is there for a reason and this topic is actually seeming dangerously close to being locked from the responses I see.

ahaha sniped to it by Flyboy, the ultra mod.

Isn't the Biggest Sonic Dissapointments a hate thread which is more direct about complaining? Or "SEGA is half assing promotion?"

Edited July 23, 2009 by Viuely

[Miko]

I'm sorry but if the majority of the fanbase wanted her dead, then they wanted her dead. That majority wouldn't be sorry she was dead. They do not understand the fanbase otherwise she would be dead. It was author appeal.

Well to explain something redmenace. Ken actually DID want her dead but SEGA kept her alive. She was undergoing promotion in SEGA world and the developers were toying with the idea before issue 50 the idea to use her. Course after issue 50 SEGA ditched her and used Tiara anyway. I don't think there IS any SEGA mandate to keep her alive anymore. I think at this point it's just a management issue.

I'm not saying she should be dead. I'm saying she should be taking the sidelines and not hog Tails' place, or Amy's place or any other character's place.

I'd agree with you up until Ian showed up. Karl did sideline the character but Ian just whipped up a few plotholes to bring her back. I think if she's dead and gone for a little while, it'd make it harder for them to do that kind of thing. Besides what about Aerith. She died and still showed up quite a bit.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Miko

[redmenace]

People have been banned for a picture post, wha? I didn't know you were privy to the staff forum and knew the reason for warns/bans. If you don't want to this topic to close then don't go acting like a mod, that's usually a big reason for things getting out of control in topics. The report button is there for a reason and this topic is actually seeming dangerously close to being locked from the responses I see.

ahaha sniped to it by Flyboy, the ultra mod.

I'm not a mod, at least not here. But I'm someone who's been hanging around enough to understand that there were two posts flame baiting from that person and nothing was done, not even a warning and someone actually expressing their happiness if the comic is gone got a written warning. Excuse me if I find this insulting.

[Flyboy Fox]

By the way, the post I made about locking the thread was before Miko's edit. At that point, it was a spammy unhelpful post. What was added, however, makes it fine.

I keep seeing "majority hate Sally" but I see nothing to back it up...

[redmenace]

I don't see you prove anything otherwise either.

I've got to go out though, I'll return to the discussion later.

[Viuely]

I keep seeing "majority hate Sally" but I see nothing to back it up...

And I said:

The internet? It's been this way ever since gaming Amy fans hate Sally because she's:

A. Not Amy

B. Makes Sonic seem stupid is one I constantly get from people

C. not a "SEGASonic" character--which is an incorrectly used term from gametards.

D. She doesn't look like a game character (one of the redeeming qualities gamers felt about Mina and Scourge).

E. She's naked. And her seemingly constant relationships with other male characters gave her the reputation of being a slut.

The TPOSA that was made to protect Sally from the countless flaming she's been getting. The countless people who've bashed Sally on FF.net because they hate her in comparison to the people who make Archie fanfiction period. The people on DA who make anti clubs about Sally far more than they do about Amy or...pretty much any other character that I can think of really. She's not that adored on the SEGA boards either.

But also think about this. Why in the world do you think Gabrie would think Karl could get away with doing what he did to Sally unless she actually WASN'T gaining popularity?

[Flyboy Fox]

I don't see you prove anything otherwise either.

I'm not the one in the position where I need to. If someone is saying the comics are failing in big part due to Sally being hated by the majority, it is up to that person to back that claim or it cannot be taken seriously. I haven't proposed an alternative relying on Sally being more popular, therefore I do not need to give you 'proof' of anything. The person making the argument needs to.

And I said:

But also think about this. Why in the world do you think Gabrie would think Karl could get away with doing what he did to Sally unless she actually WASN'T gaining popularity?

Show me, statistically, with evidence, PROOF that the MAJORITY of fans hate Sally. Don't show me proof that she has people who hate her. Show me proof that the statistical majority hate her.

Edit: Also, internet Sonic fandom =/= entire Sonic fandom. I would imagine there are plenty of people who read the comics but have no particular interest in posting about 'em online.

[Pelly <3's U]

Isn't the Biggest Sonic Dissapointments a hate thread which is more direct about complaining? Or "SEGA is half assing promotion?"

It's not like you're not allowed to not like things. This thread already has spam and backseat modding... generally not something that bides well for the topic. If people post appropriately though there's no problems and everyone can keep discussion things to their hearts content.

I'm not a mod, at least not here. But I'm someone who's been hanging around enough to understand that there were two posts flame baiting from that person and nothing was done, not even a warning and someone actually expressing their happiness if the comic is gone got a written warning. Excuse me if I find this insulting.

If you thought there were flame baiting posts why didn't you report them? Actually don't answer that question because it will derail this topic further. From now on don't be act like a backseat mod (especially threatening that people could get banned).

Alright from now on keep things on topic.