Do you think Sally should have been/should be killed off?

[Miko]

Also, wasn't there something against these "kill off" topics?

It's a question of whether or not she should have been killed off. Apparently it's been checked by mods and is ok. We also have a "Biggest Sonic Dissapointment" topic which is alive as long as it's kept civil.

And if half the reader fanbase wanted Sally dead in the first place...why make a topic on it if that was already the case?

This is saying should she have been/should she be killed off. That is a point in supporting my position but the fact itself isn't the position.

And what about the other half?

1. Penders said at least half which infers there were probably a lot more people .

2. Many Sally supporters have said "People are much more vocal about hate." So, that'd infer there would be a disproportionate number of Sally fans telling Ken that wanted her ALIVE by Endgame.

3. Despite the insistence that Sally dying will make sales plummet, we've seen increases in sales despite her removal through the palace and other career venues.

[Blazey Firekitty]

3. Despite the insistence that Sally dying will make sales plummet, we've seen increases in sales despite her removal through the palace and other career venues.

Wasn't the only other job she had during the "away from battle period" the "Dear Ally" thing? I haven't read all the issues, so I wouldn't know.

[Kiljoy]

Ken had said retrospectively that half the readerbase by 50 (actually he said at least half) did in an interview. Bear in mind the fandom's numbers peaked at 50 so the most fans to take into account would've been at that point. Did every last fan write a letter? Probably not, but he had enough of a sample to work with. This is like saying scientific surveys for example that you may rely on in everday life have no validity because they didn't survey EVERYONE. This logic is of course ridiculous. Usually a pool 100 minimum is sufficient and 1000-10,000 is incredibly good in a scientific study, So I'd see no problem with applying such standards to this.

Again the numbers may not tell the truth, as I said before, before would be more motivated at that time if they hated her, and then send in letters. Your analogy between that and a scientific survey is faulty because in those surveys they pick people at random. Ken had no idea what the whole of the user base wanted, all he had to go on was the vocal ones, and the vocal ones were the ones willing to write letters. Why should I write a letter if I like Sally, I would have no reason until they already made the decision to kill her off.

If that's the case then Ken would have saved her on behalf of the fans (which he didn't). After all, Sally fans would be the ones at around endgame to send all those angry letters in response to what Ken did.

Which they did, they complained, the difference is now Ken has to deal with letters who want her dead and letters to have her stay, as opposed to just kill her off letters.

At this point in time, yeah they did because their character wasn't simply being given a backseat, she was being killed off.

Which is why they would have written in, but before that they had no reason to write in to keep her, she wasn't in danger of leaving.

And Sally's fans wouldn't hate the idea of her being shoved in a palace. Especially a particular one who wrote a couple plotholes to bring her back.

This is still not enough to cause a huge backlash, I like Sally, and wasn't motivated in any way at all.

My point is Ken did not know what half the user base wanted, because half the user base, even including sally fans, would not be motivated to write letters.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Kiljoy

[KittyNakajima]

I never really liked Sally much. Never really liked the comic's storyline much for that matter either - the way she's so interwoven into much of it really makes her come off as if she was someone's own very special Sue with an elaborately fabricated backstory that wreaks of fanfiction. I just always found it off kilter compared to the fun loving, free roaming nomadic version of Sonic that they currently have established/always had in the games. Whereas in the comics he was moreso just the warrior lapdog of a princess and her kingdom.

And this is just me generalizing my statement for time (and sanity). Most of what folks have said about her character like her inconsistent characterization to a lack of reprimand for her questionable actions I agree with pretty much. I'd also divulge into the romantic tension that so made this comic series read more like a telenovella, but I'll save it for another time.

So yeah, I guess you could say I'd love for her to be killed off. If Ian Flynn is so intent on incorporating game elements into the comic it'd might be actually be the catalyst to finding more of a harmony that could please both game and comic fan alike. Rather than wasting away in that little kingdom he could be running across globe impacting the greater good.

[Blazey Firekitty]

The whole scrapped "Replacing the dead Sally with a robot" storyline always seemed...bizarre, to me. I mean, yeah, there's a precedent for it in that one episode of SatAM, but I never understood why Ken was so hooked on duplicates.

Though the image of Sally with half her face torn off, Terminator style, and shambling zombie-like towards Sonic while snarling is kind of funny.

[Picchi]

Rather than wasting away in that little kingdom he could be running across globe impacting the greater good.

That's one of the reasons why I figured he and some of the other Sonic Team characters (like Tails and Amy) would've been better off in Mina's band. It'd give them reason to tour the world, and it feels a lot more like what Sonic's already doing in the games as opposed to being some elite agent of sorts to a monarchy with majority of the supporting characters there unable do much in the way of supporting.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Picchi

[Blazey Firekitty]

as opposed to being some elite agent of sorts to a monarchy.

Speaking of which, Geoffry just kind of disappeared of the face of the earth, huh?

[Picchi]

He made an appearance during the whole Mammoth Mogul casino story arc, although I wouldn't call him a regular. Even an occasional's pushing it.

[Blazey Firekitty]

He made an appearance during the whole Mammoth Mogul casino story arc, although I wouldn't call him a regular. Even an occasional's pushing it.

Heh, I wonder if Elias ever uses him for anything anymore? Maybe he's out of a job.

[Miko]

Again the numbers may not tell the truth, as I said before, before would be more motivated at that time if they hated her, and then send in letters. Your analogy between that and a scientific survey is faulty because in those surveys they pick people at random.

That's one way to conduct a scientific study, yes. However leaving your mailing address and considering the responses of participants that can write back in your story is also a way to acheive a valid scientific study.

Why should I write a letter if I like Sally, I would have no reason until they already made the decision to kill her off.

To thank Archie? To tell them what you liked about the product so they'll keep doing it? Archie has often gotten a great deal of it's direction from fan demands (although it's often implimented very poorly). And do get a great deal of feedback from people about the things they like. You're not everyone. This idea that people only write letters to complain is very incorrect and has no real basis aside from how you yourself personally operate. I've been following along that logic as long as I see flaws on your end in doing so, but I can switch it up at any time.

Which they did, they complained, the difference is now Ken has to deal with letters who want her dead and letters to have her stay, as opposed to just kill her off letters.

First of all there is no difference in how Ken has to deal with the letters. He can listen or he can ignore. This goes for both sides of the issue. They complained perhaps but majority of the fandom did not want this character.

Which is why they would have written in, but before that they had no reason to write in to keep her, she wasn't in danger of leaving.

Except by issue 50 Ken still contends most people hated Sally and people wanted her dead. Which would infer that half the fandom bare minimum were intent on seeing this character die and not return even after the issue was presented to them. And that leaves maximum 50 percent of the rest that were either apathetic or wanted her to live.

[Blazey Firekitty]

How would one know what total amount of readers not writing letters all would have been compared those who were?

[Miko]

Did every last fan write a letter? Probably not, but he had enough of a sample to work with. This is like saying scientific surveys for example that you may rely on in everday life have no validity because they didn't survey EVERYONE. This logic is of course ridiculous. Usually a pool 100 minimum is sufficient and 1000-10,000 is incredibly good in a scientific study, So I'd see no problem with applying such standards to this.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Come to think of it, in terms of just the past three years, I can't think of anything that suggests that Sally was more important than Sonic, Tails or Knuckles, except maybe the "Anti-Mobius" arc.

[Mau]

I don't *hate* Sally, but I think what she has become now is a character that's whiny, and unsuitable as a mate for Sonic. She's only a reflection of the character people have come to know and love in the Sonic universe. A shadow.

I really thought the idea that Sally died created a lot of drama that caught a lot of reader's attention. This was a death I think people would actually care about unlike the multible deaths that have occured of characters no one cared about. Tommy Turtle anyone? *shudders* I think it would've kept a more serious overtone of the story, that characters actually do die.

I also think in a way that bringing Sonic's parents back to life or Tail's parents wasn't such a good idea. Not of course that I minded the story arc that Jules couldn't be de robotisized. It brought a bit of emotion to care a bit for the character, I thought.

Ok, Knuckles discovering his father was alive, I can understand.

But do we need the "my entire life was a lie" scenario for all the characters? Not necessarily. But a "my life was destroyed by Robotnik" is a common pain that all mobians feel.

And then Hershey would have to live with the guilt that she killed Sally. But it wouldn't have been murder since she didn't premeditate on killing Sally. She wanted to kill Snively. If anything, she would've been charged with manslaughter, or else would've become a darker character that would do what she could to redeem herself.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Mau

[Blazey Firekitty]

I actually think that pairing Sally off with Knuckles would have solved a lot of problems. Though, I do like Julie enough that I don't like the idea of her not existing at all.

[Mau]

I used to like the idea of KnucklesxSally, and them having a bit of a "forbidden" love relationship, but I have changed my mind since then, especially since I'm now a fan of either BlazexKnuckles or ShadexKnuckles.

I used to like KnucklesxJulie-su when I was younger...until I found out Ken's plans for the couple in the future, and I used to complain up and down on many a message board about it. Didn't do any good though.

Perhaps Knuckles and Julie-su could break up? Maybe the "soul touch" thing is really a lie. Didn't stop Knuckles' mum from remarrying, and certainly didn't stop her from divorcing Locke. Could Lara-le have still loved Locke? It's a possibility, the decision to divorce him could've been a painful one, but she just didn't want her son to be a guardian. Unfortunately, Locke was under the pressure from his elders, and probably wishes he could've given Knuckles a choice.

In the M:25YL story arc, Knuckles decides Lara-su shouldn't be a guardian, but realizes he's making the same mistake his father made by forcing him to be a guardian. You would think that Knuckles, knowing that he didn't have a choice, would give his child a choice either way.

[Kiljoy]

That's one way to conduct a scientific study, yes. However leaving your mailing address and considering the responses of participants that can write back in your story is also a way to acheive a valid scientific study.

No that's the best way to conduct a non biased SCIENTIFIC survey. My point is such a small percentage of people are willing to write in does not equal a correct slice of the user base.

To thank Archie? To tell them what you liked about the product so they'll keep doing it? Archie has often gotten a great deal of it's direction from fan demands (although it's often implimented very poorly). And do get a great deal of feedback from people about the things they like. You're not everyone. This idea that people only write letters to complain is very incorrect and has no real basis aside from how you yourself personally operate. I've been following along that logic as long as I see flaws on your end in doing so, but I can switch it up at any time.

Ummm no, I don't think I should write archie for doing things right, I have no intention of writing a letter to everyone who makes something I like just to say "hey keep it up, doing great." Why? Because that's a waste of my time. You say i'm not everyone, I never said I was, but I am in the MAJORITY, and the majority of people do not write letters unless they have a real reason. You say it's totally incorrect and I am only basing it on my personal belief, wrong again, it is a well accepted fact. You ever had some crappy little summer job? i've had a few. At all those jobs they ask the customer to do a survey online, very easy to do, problem is the happy customers don't do them because they feel no need. Only the pissed off ones are motivated enough, and that's just an online survey, as opposed to actually writing a letter.

First of all there is no difference in how Ken has to deal with the letters. He can listen or he can ignore. This goes for both sides of the issue. They complained perhaps but majority of the fandom did not want this character.

You missed my point and looks to have contradicted yourself. You act as though the killing off sally was in response to the majority of the fanbase hating her, and point to some statistic. Then you want to know why they wouldn't change it back when Sally fans write in, well I told you, it's a different story when you have letters coming in from both the groups.

Except by issue 50 Ken still contends most people hated Sally and people wanted her dead. Which would infer that half the fandom bare minimum were intent on seeing this character die and not return even after the issue was presented to them. And that leaves maximum 50 percent of the rest that were either apathetic or wanted her to live.

Again this brings me full circle, Ken was basing his 50 percent statistic on the vocal ones, that does not in anyway constitute a fair slice of the demographic. I like Sally, but I wouldn't write in to save her because it's not as big a deal for me, i'm not as vocal, that doesn't make my opinion worth any less then the guy shouting on a roof top to kill Sally. I was eight when episode 50 came out, I was never going to write a letter to keep her.

Listen I am not arguing what the majority thinks, because neither of us know that, all I am arguing is the validity of this "atleast fifty percent wanted her dead" thing.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Kiljoy

[Blazey Firekitty]

Actually, upon reconsidering, I would be delighted for Blaze and Knux to get together, assuming he and Julie could remain friends.

[Mau]

I thought it was Sega that told Ken Penders not to have Sally killed off, and it had nothing to do with the fans opinions.

More in particular, since when did Ken Penders care about fan's opinions anyway? He certainly didn't care about mine!

In any case, I do think Blaze and Knuckles would make a cute couple, but I wonder what would make Knuckles and Julie-su break up without them really hating each other? This may better be reserved for another topic however, as to not go too far off topic on this one.

[Sean]

That's really weird. How come Sega told Archie to not kill her off? I didn't realize they gave that much of a damn about what went on in the comics...

[Blazey Firekitty]

That's really weird. How come Sega told Archie to not kill her off? I didn't realize they gave that much of a damn about what went on in the comics...

They may have had plans to put her a video game that somehow went down the tubes later on.

[Miko]

No that's the best way to conduct a non biased SCIENTIFIC survey.

No it's one to conduct a non biased Scientific survey. Your bias is not affecting the results if you give everyone equal oppourtunity to give feedback about the product and you take into account ALL the letters or take into account letters selected at random.

My point is such a small percentage of people are willing to write in does not equal a correct slice of the user base.

According to Ken, even after the net grew in popularity it's a penny in the bucket to what they get in mail. The percentage is enough to conduct a study. Call it small all you want, but enough people were involved from all over the country to make this an accurate study by even scientific standards.

To thank Archie? To tell them what you liked about the product so they'll keep doing it? Archie has often gotten a great deal of it's direction from fan demands (although it's often implimented very poorly). And do get a great deal of feedback from people about the things they like. You're not everyone. This idea that people only write letters to complain is very incorrect and has no real basis aside from how you yourself personally operate. I've been following along that logic as long as I see flaws on your end in doing so, but I can switch it up at any time.

Ummm no, I don't think I should write archie for doing things right, I have no intention of writing a letter to everyone who makes something I like just to say "hey keep it up, doing great."

And as I said, YOU are not everyone. Despite the fact you won't do it, there are many others who do.

Why? Because that's a waste of my time. You say i'm not everyone, I never said I was, but I am in the MAJORITY,

What proof of that do you have? Penders has even said right up until around the time he left the offline fandom he dealt with was larger than what we have online.

You missed my point and looks to have contradicted yourself. You act as though the killing off sally was in response to the majority of the fanbase hating her, and point to some statistic. Then you want to know why they wouldn't change it back when Sally fans write in, well I told you, it's a different story when you have letters coming in from both the groups.

I'm confused by this. Are you saying Sally was saved because Ken listened to the overwhelming fan support that came when she died? Because that's not how it goes. SEGA demanded her alive, not the fans. They were thinking of using just about ALL the Freedom Fighters in a game and so she wasn't to die. Of course they quickly lost interest in this after issue 50 and proceeded to make Tiara B. For the cancelled game Sonic-X-treme. Fans did not save her.

Again this brings me full circle, Ken was basing his 50 percent statistic on the vocal ones,

He's basing it off of everyone who submitted letters.

that does not in anyway constitute a fair slice of the demographic.

Yeah it does. Because you have a valid number of people from the targetted demograpic providing feedback.

I like Sally, but I wouldn't write in to save her because it's not as big a deal for me, i'm not as vocal, that doesn't make my opinion worth any less then the guy shouting on a roof top to kill Sally.

Actually it does when considering this decision. Because while the guy shouting on the rooftop hates this character so much he wants her dead and can very likely leave the series over such hatred, you wouldn't care what they did either way and you'd be staying as a viewer. Your opinion won't cost the book sales, while his will. Actually we can assume the overwhelming majority of people who didn't submit letters were too apathetic to what happened to her, and probably wouldn't have left regardless. That or they were happy with the development.

[Kiljoy]

No it's one to conduct a non biased Scientific survey. Your bias is not affecting the results if you give everyone equal oppourtunity to give feedback about the product and you take into account ALL the letters or take into account letters selected at random.

the vocal Minority does not constitute a fair slice of the demographic.

And as I said, YOU are not everyone. Despite the fact you won't do it, there are many others who do.

And as I said, I never claimed to be.

What proof of that do you have? Penders has even said right up until around the time he left the offline fandom he dealt with was larger than what we have online.

Good job taking my quote out of context, by saying I was in the majority meant that the majority does not feel the need to write a letter unless something really bugs them.

I'm confused by this. Are you saying Sally was saved because Ken listened to the overwhelming fan support that came when she died? Because that's not how it goes. SEGA demanded her alive, not the fans. They were thinking of using just about ALL the Freedom Fighters in a game and so she wasn't to die. Of course they quickly lost interest in this after issue 50 and proceeded to make Tiara B. For the canceled game Sonic-X-treme. Fans did not save her.

No I am saying that fans did indeed send in letters, but they did't affect the outcome. I know why they kept Sally.

Yeah it does. Because you have a valid number of people from the targeted demographic providing feedback.

You seem to think simply having a lot of readers' letters means it's a fair demographic. Think about who reads the comic, and then think who would be willing to write in, I am counting all the kids and casuals. Now think why would someone write in. My point is simply getting letters does not mean the letters are evenly distributed.

Actually it does when considering this decision. Because while the guy shouting on the rooftop hates this character so much he wants her dead and can very likely leave the series over such hatred, you wouldn't care what they did either way and you'd be staying as a viewer. Your opinion won't cost the book sales, while his will. Actually we can assume the overwhelming majority of people who didn't submit letters were too apathetic to what happened to her, and probably wouldn't have left regardless. That or they were happy with the development.

Not according to our conversation, it may carry more weight in comic sales, but our discussion is on how much he counts toward the fanbase. He doesn't count as two people because he is louder. Hell you admit to my position.

Actually we can assume the overwhelming majority of people who didn't submit letters were too apathetic to what happened to her

Again I am not arguing that the majority like Sally, only that the statistic of half the readers hate her is not fact. What you said right there is what i've been saying all along.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Kiljoy

[Toby]

Ken said this, Ken said that. Ken said a lot of things, and most of it was bullshit. You're seriously going to need to find a better argument than "Ken said--".

[Miko]

Ken said this, Ken said that. Ken said a lot of things, and most of it was bullshit.

Question: So Ian can't be full of crap but Ken can? Ah yes, says the person who went to his defense talking about how "wrong" the sales figures BobR posted at Ken's place despite the fact it came from the book itself and you didn't even bother to check the numbers in it. Not even after I'd explained where these sales came from several times. There was no incentive for Ken to lie about this. He was speaking retrospectively as many writers have talked out their ass when it fuels their direction for the story. I could see what you mean if he said it while he still wanted to kill Sally off, but no.

the vocal Minority does not constitute a fair slice of the demographic.

Here's the thing. Every scientific study unless done against a person's will is done by those who have enough incentive to participate and thus would be the "vocal" minority. A person whose picked at random for a school survey doesn't HAVE to answer it for example.

Good job taking my quote out of context, by saying I was in the majority meant that the majority does not feel the need to write a letter unless something really bugs them.

1. You don't really know this. You're only basing this on how you yourself operate.

2. He said by 50 people wanted her dead. I'm going to gather he'd internalized responses of "I don't like this character" and decided to off her. The majority saying by issue 50 they wanted her dead. Contrary to what people like Drazen have said, fans did not save Sally. SEGA ultimately saved Sally.

You seem to think simply having a lot of readers' letters means it's a fair demographic.

Yeah, it is. You're offering equal oppourtunity to each person reading the book to submit to it feedback. And the comic has made it known that they DID listen to what people said they liked and disliked when making future stories. So there's plenty of incentive to write about what you like so you can continue to see more stories about the things that interested you.

Now think why would someone write in. My point is simply getting letters does not mean the letters are evenly distributed. Saying every study is invalid because it deals with willing participants and doesn't expiriment with EVERYONE including unwilling participants is BS.

Think about who reads the comic, and then think who would be willing to write in, I am counting all the kids and casuals.

1. Kids can mail letters, please don't undermine the intelligence of children. Even if they didn't, they could have their parents take a few minutes of their time to help them with the mailing address.

2. Casuals are a non issue to this because even after Sally died, none of them gave a damn enough to write in either way. Even if I worded my arguement to: Most fans don't give a damn about Sally or hate her, the comic would still ultimately lose more viewers keeping her around as those were just the people who wanted her dead.

[edit] I realized the last bit was somewhat irrelevant.

What you said right there is what i've been saying all along.

Actually under your logic those that didn't submit letters were overjoyed because no one has to send letters if they're happy amirite? Of course that apathy could've been because they were happy. If Ken's killing her do you really need to write in to make more stories about how to continue killing this character? Not really. So it'd actually be a circumstance fundamentally different then the many people who write in giving feedback in the name of seeing something they like again. Which probably means if anything a lot of people who WERE apathetic, could possibly have been people content with the direction and given death is only something that happens once.

Still, Ken's gone to say he's received thousands of letters and I'm sure a sizeable ammount of the survey had a bunch of apathetic people. Maybe there were kids who were too lazy to have their parents help them write a letter on both sides but tough. Scientific studies miss out on conducting their expiriments on everyone. You work with what you have. I really don't think it's simply a valid study, its a VERY GOOD study in terms of how proportional it was to the readerbase. Just having 1000 means it was 1/75 people. And he said that it was in the thousands. Now you try to figure out how proportional a study on say Americans who smoke with 10,000 people (which is "OMG I $#!T myself!" good for a survey number) is porportional to their population and I'd say Ken Penders had a MUCH better study sample to work with. Or even a survey number of 100,000. Think about all the studies that have created numerous innovations in your life and call them invalid if you want, but I personally think that is..well, ridiculous. You say these people have incentive to do it. Well no scientific study deals with people who don't have any incentive and decide not to do the study. Part of an ethical study is in getting informed consent.

by saying I was in the majority meant that the majority does not feel the need to write a letter unless something really bugs them.

And as I've told you, you have no proof that such a thing is true.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Miko