Nine Killed in Shooting at historic church in Charleston

[Candescence]

Jon Stewart pretty much tells it how it is.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJl9iqnvkOE

[Your Vest Friend]

 

Social media calls for a new level of sheer depressing.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Honestly, I'm surprised at how this stuff is blowing up more than 50 years after we thought we've overcome a lot of this.

 

Granted, it's because now we can spread this news much faster than we could decades ago, but it's like these years have seen constant example after example after example. Might also be our urge to flock to the most negative news, and fuck is it really working.

 

Given how these things seem to be escalating, it makes me wonder where all of this is going to take us in a few years down the line given how the tension seems to be building.

[Mauro Fonseca]

Either civil war or militarized police driven by a radicalized people molded by media with a thirst for more negative news they can spin and twist to generate outrage and get the "clicks" from.

This is a sad case, anyways. At least clean in the resolution so far- gave himself up easy, arrested without trouble. Here's hoping it goes swift but justly through all the court procedures.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

In other news, in a case of "holy shit," the killer's uncle says he would push the button himself if he recieves the death penalty.

 

Goddamn...

[Patticus]

Honestly, I'm surprised at how this stuff is blowing up more than 50 years after we thought we've overcome a lot of this.

 

America is a huge country, with a relatively low population density. It has a lot of rural, back woods areas, even whole states, where a recognizable segment of the population still feels toward non-white people (particularly black people) what their ancestors felt fifty, a hundred, a hundred and fifty years ago. Just because the country is on the cusp of a remarkable liberalization, that doesn't discount the undercurrent of racism the whole country sees every day, but somehow fails to act against, for one reason or another - or the fact that that racism will continue to thrive well into this century and beyond, despite any liberalization the country undergoes.

 

America likes to pretend that it got over its racism problem decades ago, but it's quite clear that it's still alive and well - in the attitudes of vocal minorities of its citizenry and certain influential media outlets, in the behavior of its law enforcement agencies, in the systemic disenfranchisement efforts championed by at least half of its governing political bodies.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

America made it clear it hardly got over its racism problem when Barack Obama was elected the first african-american president several years back, and with it the casually racist attitudes they had towards him. We may have come a long way, but his election brought a surge of racism that made everyone realize that, despite this landmark, there was still a lot of work to be done. The whole world has seen that ugliness, and these events are just making it more apparent.

 

It's amazing how a chemical in one's skin is a sign of inferiority or superiority among people. Not humanity at its best...

[nintega137]

Jon Stewart pretty much tells it how it is.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJl9iqnvkOE

[Your Vest Friend]

It's amazing how a chemical in one's skin is a sign of inferiority or superiority among people. Not humanity at its best...

[Nepenthe]

nintega, what makes this case notable is that this was an obvious racial hate crime, and yet we still got people getting offended that we're calling it a racial hate crime, or trying to make out like it was an attack on Christianity so they can co-opt and distort what happened. Hell, this topic was derailed partly on the basis of being offended about race baiting, whatever the fuck that even means anymore, when there was no nuance to this situation. It blows my mind.

Our culture being founded on and continually shaped by white terrorism is a fact denied by America to levels only matched by Japanese denial of the rape of Nanking, or dare I say Holocaust denial since we still actually seriously argue about what the damn confederate flag stands for. Jon's inability to get his head around the amount of hypocrisy and willful blindness people live in is how I feel. I literally can't understand this country.

[nintega137]

nintega, what makes this case notable is that this was an obvious racial hate crime, and yet we still got people getting offended that we're calling it a racial hate crime, or trying to make out like it was an attack on Christianity so they can co-opt and distort what happened. Hell, this topic was derailed partly on the basis of being offended about race baiting, whatever the fuck that even means anymore, when there was no nuance to this situation. It blows my mind.

 

[Candescence]

So Dylann Roof confessed to the killings. And to boot, he said he nearly didn't go through with it. He almost didn't go through with it because everyone in the church was "so nice to him". But he still had to "go through with his mission".

 

He fucking knew what he was doing. He shouldn't get the death penalty (though I oppose capital punishment on principle), he should rot in jail for life. This is goddamn terrorism motivated by racism. Truly disgusting.

[Tani Coyote]

My condolences to the families.

I really don't know what kind of sick mind you must have to think murder is ever okay.

Generally it's more that the process is dragged out for so long that the prisoner either ends up eventually doing themselves in or someone else does them in. I guess the legal system just doesn't want to be bothered with doing the actual killing part.

Oh no, the legal system is a-okay with killing people. It's first and foremost a system of power and control. That's why transparency and democracy are so important, because they keep that system largely in the hands of the people.

What they're afraid of is the slim chance they have the wrong guy. Nobody wants the burden of having executed an innocent person, no matter how remote the chance. It doesn't make for good PR.

Now in this case all signs point to this being the perpetrator, but in general, it's understandable why officials try to delay if not abolish execution.

 

In other news, in a case of "holy shit," the killer's uncle says he would push the button himself if he recieves the death penalty.

 

Goddamn...

 

There comes a point when you realize having similar DNA doesn't mean squat when 99.9% of your DNA matches other humans to begin with.

The idea of the blood family is largely antiquated and we're better off when we replace it with ideas that those who we have genuine bonds with, and who are good members of our society, are our family.

I certainly wouldn't want to be related to this guy either. This isn't a case of a dear nephew stealing or dealing drugs to pay the rent; this is outright racist murder.

I honestly don't want to be related to my uncle simply because of his racist views. I understand perfectly the disownment of someone who commits murder.

 

It's amazing how a chemical in one's skin is a sign of inferiority or superiority among people. Not humanity at its best...

What's really amazing is the fact society continues to lick up the idea of one group or another being the cause of one's ills, rather than realizing it's the plutocratic elite who are our real enemy.

Big business continues to applaud whites, blacks, and whoever else pointing fingers at each other, while they reap huge profits off our infighting.

[nintega137]

 

What's really amazing is the fact society continues to lick up the idea of one group or another being the cause of one's ills, rather than realizing it's the plutocratic elite who are our real enemy.

Big business continues to applaud whites, blacks, and whoever else pointing fingers at each other, while they reap huge profits off our infighting.

 

See the youtube comments in my earlier comment as proof of that. 

A good example of people attempting to diverge this subject into another territory in which it doesn't belong.

 

 

Jeb Bush’s pathetic Charleston dodge: “I don’t know” if white supremacist suspect was motivated by racism Just because Dylann Roof told police he wanted to start a race war doesn't mean this is about race SCOTT ERIC KAUFMAN   Follow

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TOPICS: DYLANN ROOF, JEB BUSH, ELECTIONS 2016, RACISM, CHARLESTON, BERNIE SANDERS, NEWS, POLITICS NEWS

 

 

 

http://www.salon.com/2015/06/19/jeb_bushs_pathetic_charleston_dodge_i_dont_know_if_white_supremacist_suspect_was_motivated_by_racism/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

 

 

 

On the other end (though I'm not really sure how useful this will actually be) there's a petition to remove the confederate flag. 

 

 

http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/remove-the-confederate-3?source=s.fb&r_by=12906191

The copy and paste didn't work very well from here so here's another site.

 

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/jeb-bush-charleston-shooting-remarks

 

 

Jeb Bush: 'I Don’t Know' If Charleston Shooting Was Racially Motivated

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ByTIERNEY SNEEDPublishedJUNE 19, 2015, 10:44 AM EDT17379 Views

 

 

As more becomes clear about the motives of the man believed to be behind the Charleston church shooting, former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush was hesitant to connect Dylann Storm Roof’s alleged actions to any racial prejudice.

When asked about whether he thought the attack was racially motivated, Bush told a Huffington Post reporter, "It was a horrific act and I don't know what the background of it is, but it was an act of hatred."

When pressed again about whether race motivated the attacks, Bush said, "I don't know. Looks like to me it was, but we'll find out all the information. It's clear it was an act of raw hatred, for sure. Nine people lost their lives, and they were African-American. You can judge what it is."

The question came after a speech Bush made at a Faith and Freedom Coalition summit in Washington.

"I don't know what was on the mind or the heart of the man who committed these atrocious crimes," Bush said in his remarks. "But I do know what was in the heart of the victims."

Soon after reporters noted the line, Bush spokesman Tim Miller said on Twitter that "of course" the former governor thought the attack was racially motivated.

In his speech, Bush went on to meditate on the fact that the massacre -- which resulted in the deaths of nine African-Americans including South Carolina state Sen. Clementa Pinckney (D), pastor at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church -- took place in a house of worship.

"They were praying. They were learning and studying the word of the Lord," Bush said. "In times like these, in times of great of national mourning, people of faith, all of us must come together and at least reflect on this and fortify our strength and love of Christ, love of God to be able to continue to go forth."

Bush said the shooting had a "big impact" on him, and urged his audience to "support" each other and to “continue to bear witness to the truths that God acts through us.”

"Even in crisis, even in desperate times, we can always walk upright as brothers and sisters and look to the heavens and know that we’re Children of God," Bush said. "I know your hearts and prayers are with the families and the pastor who lost their lives and let’s hope it never ever ever happens again."

Bush had a campaign event planned in Charleston Thursday, which he canceled in light of the shooting.

This story has been updated with additional comments by Bush and his spokesman.

[Tornado]

That article title is such a joke.

[Patticus]

The only reason Jeb Bush doesn't apparently know if Dylann Roof's wanting to start a race war was motivated by his massive racism or not is that he wants to appeal to the white supremacist voting bloc - as if they haven't done anything wrong. It's the same old trick his colleagues and presidential nominee wannabe predecessors pulled and continue pulling - using incredibly vague, non-committal terminology in interviews to avoid angering anyone, hoping that everyone will be at least pleased with what they don't say.

 

"Oh good, he doesn't know if the mass murderer's motives align with our world views, and he didn't condemn them." - Some racist TV audience member, probably.

 

"I don't know about global warming or evolution, I'm not a scientist"

"I don't know about this massive racist's racism"

 

Yadda yadda. Another day, another interview pandering to bad people.

[Mauro Fonseca]

This is goddamn terrorism motivated by racism. Truly disgusting.

 

Did he have an ulterior political reason for this? If not, it's NOT terrorism. There's nothing wrong with not calling every act of violence "terrorism", and if you start getting the old "if he were muslim it'd be called terrorism!", the solution is to stop calling it terrorism in those cases too unless there's an ulterior political reason for it.

 

As far as we can see, it's a pure hate crime. And it's being treated as such.

[Tornado]

The only reason Jeb Bush doesn't apparently know if Dylann Roof's wanting to start a race war was motivated by his massive racism or not is that he wants to appeal to the white supremacist voting bloc - as if they haven't done anything wrong. It's the same old trick his colleagues and presidential nominee wannabe predecessors pulled and continue pulling - using incredibly vague, non-committal terminology in interviews to avoid angering anyone, hoping that everyone will be at least pleased with what they don't say.

 

If he was that worried about angering racist white guy constituents, I have to assume that he wouldn't have said this bit:

Looks like to me it was

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

Ya, the quotes show while he is being diplomatic(making a statement without knowing the full story can come back to bite you), He's also being as straightforward as he can as well. Sounds like he doesn't mind making a bit of stand, and being the former Governor of Florida I'd imagine he'd have a larger viewpoint than you would think about this stuff.

[Tani Coyote]

Jeb is nominally more open minded than many GOP politicians on issues of race and culture; while a lot of the party adheres to "speak English or giiiit out," for example, he speaks Spanish at home for the benefit of his wife.

That said he really could cut the pleasantries and say this was racist in intent. While there is some super remote possibility this wasn't racial, the simplest answer is usually the best one.

[Patticus]

Dylann has already gone on record, unequivocally stating to investigators that the intent of his attack was to "start a race war."

 

There is zero room for doubt or opinions on whether it was a racist attack or not. As a person looking to become the next leader of the free world, Bush should have been every bit as certain as Dylann. His, "looks to me it was" statement sounds uncertain, as if his view is one of many ideas on the subject of Roof's motives. The motives were absolutely clear - even before Dylann talked. The attack took place at a church which played a role in the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 60s, and it is iconic to the African American community. He obviously chose the site for a reason.

 

As for Jeb's time as governor, right before the election in 2000, Bush oversaw an effort to purge the state of Florida's voting lists of convicted felons (who aren't allowed to vote). However, surprise surprise, the process was "riddled with mistakes" and resulted in around 12,000 wrongly purged voters, disproportionately African Americans. Hardly the actions of a man sensitive to racial issues regarding that group, even if he is more sensitive to Hispanic racial issues.

[Tani Coyote]

Well, that is why I said "nominally."

I think it's important to note that historically many Hispanics benefitted from a "half white" status. Black Americans have not had this sort of advantage. On a list of potential suitors I think it goes without saying that for most white families, an Asian or Hispanic would come before a black one. Even Native Americans have historically benefited (but not as much) from a status of being seen as half white. My presumption would be this is largely rooted in the history of slavery in the US; there were real economic benefits to marrying Indians or Hispanics in many cases, but allowing blacks to marry whites would threaten the institution of slavery by undermining the idea of blacks as inherently inferior.

I think Jeb might be educated enough to reason that this was racially motivated, but one has to remember the serious ideological split between the GOP elites and its voters, as seen by the struggle between the Senate and Tea Party.

[shdowhunt60]

Dylann has already gone on record, unequivocally stating to investigators that the intent of his attack was to "start a race war."

 

This also would mean that it could be considered a terrorist attack, since there was a clear political motication. I just hope that he doesn't get his wish.

[Tani Coyote]

He won't.

Minorities won't start a race war because they know they would lose.

Rank and file whites won't start one because they are convinced race is not an issue.

Elite whites rely on minorities for a scapegoat, a source of labor, and a means to divide the working class, so they wouldn't do it either.

America will keep humming along like the fucked up machine it is.

[Tornado]

Dylann has already gone on record, unequivocally stating to investigators that the intent of his attack was to "start a race war."

And? That almost certainly contributed to "looks like to me it was".

 

There is zero room for doubt or opinions on whether it was a racist attack or not. As a person looking to become the next leader of the free world, Bush should have been every bit as certain as Dylann. His, "looks to me it was" statement sounds uncertain, as if his view is one of many ideas on the subject of Roof's motives.

Bullshit. It sounds uncertain to you because you're the one reaching to try and link Bush not basically saying "THIS GUY DEFINITELY KILLED ALL THOSE PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY WERE BLACK" with him silently appealing to racists by not condemning the shooter enough. If he was entertaining other possibilities in his head, why the hell did he even say that he thought it was racial? Plenty of other Republicans have come out and basically said Dylann just wanted to kill Christians, and have been doing so pretty much since it happened.

 

 

This:

 

 

Looks like to me it was, but we'll find out all the information

Is about as certain as one can be about motives in a criminal investigation that literally just started. See the 2009 Fort Hood shooting. The motives in that case were about as obvious as this one and had similar hindsight background information known to everyone within days. And yet even though that shooter pretty much came out and said "I did it because I'm a Islamic fundamentalist" there was still years of waffling over whether it was done because he was just crazy, or because he was about to deploy to Afghanistan and didn't want too, or because his workplace competence was repeatedly being called into question by coworkers, and so on.

 

This:

It's clear it was an act of raw hatred, for sure. Nine people lost their lives, and they were African-American. You can judge what it is.

Is a pretty straightforward explanation for his stance, too. Where is the uncertainty in that statement? How is he pandering to racist people by stating he personally believed it had to do with race when everyone around him have been falling over themselves to blame everything except race? Because he used a passive sentence instead of an active one?

He had two outs for answering that question. "Those people were killed only for being Christian." "Those people were killed only because he was crazy." Republicans have been throwing around the shooting purely as an attack against The Church and Wholesome Sane Christian Values since Wednesday night. Fox News has been attempting to pound that into people's heads since Wednesday night. Bush was even at a Christian fundraising event. If Jeb wanted to avoid making waves against the people who have already bought into the Fox News narrative of the events, why didn't he simply say that narrative?