Sonic Spitball - Part Two!

[StaticMania]

I think your Mario World problem is just the results of inconvenient button placement as well as non-adjusted button mapping for the Game-cube controller. They just didn't account for it.

 

I would say that it's not truly that inconvenient to hold down a face button to run while tapping the jump button. The only problem there is you won't be able to tap the jump button as fast.

 

Though in MegaMan, having to switch between buttons for jumpin' and shootin' is definitely more inconvenient, noticeably more. It would be easier to shoot more precisely, had the button been assigned to trigger...if it could've been that is.

[Diogenes]

20 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

I think your Mario World problem is just the results of inconvenient button placement as well as non-adjusted button mapping for the Game-cube controller. They just didn't account for it.

Well yeah, but my point is button assignment isn't just about throwing everything on there, you've got to think through how everything is going to be used. If you don't, you risk hurting the game.

[NoirSuede]

Even though I'm never gonna be able to agree 100% with him (I personally prefer binding the jump button to L2 and R2 so that the player would never ever have to take their hands off of the camera for even a second), that still doesn't change the fact that that video was extremely well made and had almost every single thing needed for a solid foundation (he didn't say anything about the level structure for some reason), so great job ShayMay, it was worth the wait.

[Blacklightning]

The problem I have with using shoulder buttons is that unless you're playing with a WiiU pad, they're generally less responsive than the rest of the buttons on your controller because they have a larger frame of movement to consider. Most games are actually designed with this limitation in mind. Shooters for example work well with it because besides the fact that the triggers on real guns generally need to be fully pulled to fire, in most of them you have pretty good reason to second-guess your shots and abort midway through pulling the trigger - a misplaced shot will at best waste a bullet of which are typically finite, and at worst result in friendly fire. In platformers the triggers work best for functions that don't require timing potentially precise enough to be counted in frames (typically "mode switches" for lack of a better description, which ranges from crouching to those stupid gem things in '06), which is why I think using both of them for the Homing Attack - something that could easily have a window of opportunity less than a second's worth if you're moving fast enough - is kind of a fucking stupid idea, especially when you're making the jump function hog every face button in lieu of sharing them. I feel like you could split jumping and HAing between the face buttons (A/B and X/Y respectively) with fairly little trouble tbh, especially considering they're going to be used in tandem pretty often anyway.

Also I kinda wanted to make a more personal note on the Instashield:

I've never been too big on it tbh, but you know what i do like about it? It doesn't even really look like a shield. For the longest time I believed it was just an extension of his spin, kinda like Sonic sticking his arms out while spinning to extend his reach for that brief moment? Not only do I think that sounds a lot cooler, it also makes a hell of a lot more sense within Sonic's existing abilities than simply being able to conjure a deadly shield right out of buttfuck nowhere for a split second. Soooooo... why not just make it a straight up attack button instead? Keep the all-encompassing hitbox, but give him several unique animations depending on where enemies are relative to him when he uses it. It'd still be functionally identical to the original instashield and Shay's interpretation of it, just a hell of a lot flashier.

[MetalSkulkBane]

I have a question regarding discussion in previous pages. Tara suggested splitting series into 2, while others said that you can't satisfy everyone, that there is too many groups. So my question is: Do people here really care what the gameplay is? Classic, Adventure, Boosts, ShayMays theoretical gameplay. Would anybody abandon Sonic if one of those gamestyles was chosen as one definitive gameplay for rest of the series?

I MIGHT BE WRONG, but I think that those gamestyles are fairly similar to each other. They can be tweaked of course, but in the end I don't think that game play is what divides the fanbase. The only requirement is quality. No Sonic 06. No Rise of Lyric. Heck I will stab my favorite, no Sonic Adventure's camera. I believe that as long as Sega finally puts some damn effort into Sonic, then gameplay wouldn't be a problem.

And what I think Tara meant earlier (again, I might be wrong) is to split Sonic in subject of characters, tone and story. I think I would support any choice Sega would make (probably Classics series would be best option, especially if we can adapt in 3D) as long as Sonic games would have quality and tone I like. Ok, it's not perfect, but I think it's good enough to satisfy majority.

Of course this is only half of the problem, but taking example of ShayMay I want to tackle one problem at the time. Does anyone disagrees with my thought process so far?

[Diogenes]

6 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

So my question is: Do people here really care what the gameplay is?

Do you think that all these arguments would have existed if we didn't?

What kind of question is this, anyway? Of course I care about the content of the games I play. Otherwise I'd have no reason to follow any series, I could just buy games at random.

...okay, okay, there's the whole issue of quality, but there are thousands of games out there that I can recognize as "good games" that, nevertheless, I still have no interest in playing. You aren't going to find me buying many FPSes because it's a genre I have little to no interest in. That doesn't mean that all FPSes are bad, just that they don't provide what I want out of a game. If they make a Sonic game that's "good" but doesn't capture the things I care about, then I'm as interested in buying it as I am the next Call of Duty or whatever.

And on top of that there are some iterations of Sonic gameplay that I think are just bad, beyond specific implementations. I think the Boost gameplay is fundamentally unviable; it leads to painfully shallow gameplay, and it's so costly to make that you'll end up with a game too short to sell at full price or one padded with some other more cost-efficient gameplay. And I have trouble imagining even the best possible RoL-styled game being good, with it being such a hodgepodge of ideas yet bringing nothing new to any of them.

[MetalSkulkBane]

Bad question phrasing in my part I see.

Ok, what if we went with classic gameplay? Not everyone grew up with it, but I never met Sonic fan that didn't like classic formula (in gameplay department anyway).

[Mauricius]

I think a good solution to the controller problem would be giving the player choice what mode to use. I don't know whether this is becoming a norm in the gaming industry, but I noticed more games are using the shoulder buttons for important actions than before, and spreading the actions over multiple fingers does make sense. However, to many people (myself included) this button assignment might feel weird since the face buttons have always been used for main actions in platformers. In the end, it's really a matter of preference.

While asking the player for control mode before actually playing the game wouldn't be a good idea in a game with many actions and moves (since you couldn't know what mode would be more fitting), it could work in a game with only three action buttons, especially with modes being clearly different. When the game asks you how you'd like the controls to be mapped, you could immediately decide whether you prefer the face or shoulder buttons.

Maybe the shoulder button mode could be called "Classic" due to several jump buttons and the other mode could be called... something else, so different fractions of the fanbase would feel like they are getting something for their tastes from the same game.

Also, I would keep the HA on the jump button. If the Insta-Shield is necessary, it could be assigned to one of the other action buttons.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

Everyone has said what has been said. The 3D proof of concept sounds great...

However, I think Shaymay is merely putting off of what could be some more interesting mechanics. If it's one thing he does a lot, is romanticize certain aspects in the design of Sonic that didn't do a whole lot in the long run. The elemental shields, while great, were wasted potential in Sonic 3k. Sure the bubble was good for Hydrocity but what else could it do to compliment Sonic's speed? The electric shield is just a double jump, which is so common in platformers even Sonic now has it so it feels like a complete waste to just give him that(Lost World and Forces now have that as his mainstay). The fire shield is the only thing that actually makes him a little more interesting, however the problem is still prevalent..Air Dash/Dash in general is like implementing boost to Adventure games. It basically nullifies spin dash and doesn't give the player an incentive to use it anymore. Advance 1 is a good example of what happens when you give 2D Sonic Air dash. It was great but a little broken.

I just think in general he needs to throw away the shields in favor of powerups that can be used when having a certain amount of ring power. That way, it not only makes the game feel a little deeper but Rings become far more valuable than before.

Really, I agree with a lot of his stuff(though I'm not fond of the romanticizing of the Genesis games). 

Although this sounds great, I believe you can make Sonic deeper mechanically. This just seems a little too basic for Sonic, and I can't imagine Sonic doing interesting things with the levels unless they are gimmick focused or a more "non-linear" level approach.

[Alienrun]

34 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Everyone has said what has been said. The 3D proof of concept sounds great...

However, I think Shaymay is merely putting off of what could be some more interesting mechanics. If it's one thing he does a lot, is romanticize certain aspects in the design of Sonic that didn't do a whole lot in the long run. The elemental shields, while great, were wasted potential in Sonic 3k. Sure the bubble was good for Hydrocity but what else could it do to compliment Sonic's speed? The electric shield is just a double jump, which is so common in platformers even Sonic now has it so it feels like a complete waste to just give him that(Lost World and Forces now have that as his mainstay). The fire shield is the only thing that actually makes him a little more interesting, however the problem is still prevalent..Air Dash/Dash in general is like implementing boost to Adventure games. It basically nullifies spin dash and doesn't give the player an incentive to use it anymore. Advance 1 is a good example of what happens when you give 2D Sonic Air dash. It was great but a little broken.

I just think in general he needs to throw away the shields in favor of powerups that can be used when having a certain amount of ring power. That way, it not only makes the game feel a little deeper but Rings become far more valuable than before.

Really, I agree with a lot of his stuff(though I'm not fond of the romanticizing of the Genesis games). 

Although this sounds great, I believe you can make Sonic deeper mechanically. This just seems a little too basic for Sonic, and I can't imagine Sonic doing interesting things with the levels unless they are gimmick focused or a more "non-linear" level approach.

Honestly, how I view Part 3 is like...take the concept of Breath of the Wild or Mario Odessey and well...apply it to Sonic. That's basically what Shay is asking for here, someting simple but still big expansive and a bit of hidden depth. (kinda like the original games when you think about it)

Now granted given you'd have to make a complex physics system AND make the game fast paced that would be a lot harder to do, but...a man can dream right?

[iambitter21]

I know this whole entire forum may already be dead and over with, but I have decided to giving my own ideas to add on to shay's video:

 

for Sonic's run, his overall ground speed should be faster than sonic islands (2019) and slower than project hero. his turning arc while running should be comfortable when at lower speeds, and be comfortably wide when going at top speeds. if he turns too sharply in any speed he slows down (basically what shay did) his jump should be light and be greatly affected by the terrain, so that means when he is going uphill he jumps higher, and jumps quicker when going downhill.

when sonic rolls, it should feel natural when decelerating, meaning that his deceleration has to feel gradual and brief enough to not make it feel overpowered (sonic islands 2019) or underpowered (sonic project hero). he also shouldn't lose a crap ton of speed when turning, just a bit more than when he actually rolls.

if I were to add more mechanics, I would definitely add more shields which are thus:

Motor shield: this shield functions similarly to the drop dash in mania, when in the air press R to preform a burst of energy when you touch the ground.

Steel shield: this shield will act like mighty's hard shell in sonic mania, but this shield will be in hard to find locations, so you'll have to explore more the find it.

Drill shield: this shield will allow sonic to dig into the ground when tapping R when in the air, I don't know the context of this I just thought it would be a fun shield to use.

a mechanic I insist on bringing back is the rail grinding, it feels so nice to get down and try to master, so what I wanna do is refine the rail grinding physics to make it as smooth as moving on foot. when you grind on rails, all of your speed slowly decays. when you crouch on the rails, you gradually lose more speed when on flat ground or up hill, but you also but you also gain even more speed down a hill. the main key thing is balance, when the rail begins to turn, moving the analog stick in the opposite direction will keep you on the rail. however if you begin to bend of the rail in either direction, you'll begin to fall off and move in either said direction, and you'll have to steer yourself back in the right direction. the thing is though, they are relatively optional, and aren't mandatory to beat a level... for the most part anyways (I'll get back to that later)

now, let's get new characters into this. Tails and knuckles have already been dealt with from shay, so that's done and over with:

Amy - she can be a morbid copy of Amy from advance 1, but will be a bit slower I've seen a lot of people trying to think of other ways to make her work, but I think the former is the better option, but either could work.

Shadow - shadow would be a morbid copy of sonic, but won't be as fast. he can still enter boost mode, wall run, homing attack, and swim. this only other difference to sonic and shadow is his acceleration, his friction, his inertia, and his ability to turn due to his rocket shoes (and from I can say from my experience with roller skates and ice skates, there's a huge difference). When Shadow accelerates, he takes longer to reach top speed even when Rolling. he takes longer to fully stop his momentum, both breaking and letting the analog stick settle. one more difference is his turning arc, he can only turn in wider arcs without losing speed a low speeds (similar to how skating rinks turn) and can only turn in car-like arcs without losing speed at higher speeds. so, how do we compensate is slower turning arc? lets make shadow drift! I know, I know, the drift was only used for the boost formula, but maybe we could give a fresh coat of paint on shadow. By holding the right bumper and holding left or right at higher speeds, you'll make shadow drift in a nice and tight arc. however the problem is that you can only drift for so long before you begin to lose speed, so you need to learn when and when not to drift. i hope you don't find the use of the word arc bothersome.

now for the world sonic will be running in. Starting with the obvious:

Tropical Cliff Zone

Coral Cavern Zone

Stratospheric City Zone

now for new zones:

Twister Mountain Zone: a mountain known for it's constant hitting by tornadoes. act 1 can start off near the mountain peaks as sonic runs across it near a clear blue sky, the music is calm and engaging. there can be lift's that take you up and down the mountains that are activated by speed. a few minutes into the act and clouds  begin to swirl around the mountains, and a tornado begins to form. the level turns into a scamper down the mountain, as you dodge fly debris and avoiding rocks stick out of the cliff. when you get to the valley, act 2 begins. there are tornadoes everywhere, the music is threatening and intimidating. The mechanics and obstacles in this act is tornadoes, what do I mean by that? well, depending on the tornado you come across in the open fields of the stage, what happens to the player is different: I you stumble across a small tornado (EF1-EF3) you get flung high into the air, if you stumble across a big tornado (EF4-EF5) you get sucked up into it and are put into an obstacle course that you must get out of, it will be similar to the tornado sequence in SA1. Lightning will shoot down from the sky, and landslides will occur on sides of the mountains. mud can act as slides that can take you down cliffs. and at the end of the act, Dr. Robotnik casts an ENORMOUS tornado that sucks sonic in. sonic has to run if he doesn't wanna fall off the twister.

Orange Meadow Zone: this is a reference to the sonic level I made in a Roblox sonic game. act 1 could be one the most GORGEOUS levels in this game. it can have orchestral music, it can have a beautiful sunset sky, It can be full of slopes and ramps and lots and lots of water at the bottom of the flowery canyon. springs can be replaced with geysers that make you go faster and higher than springs. boulder can be rolled on and break a lot of spikes. At the end of the act Flowers and trees grow huge and you need to weave around the top of the canyon, until you reach the cliff and a flower catches you. act 2 takes place In the sky, you run on top of huge flower stems and tree branches that twist and turn constantly. there will be "small branches" that sonic can grind on to reach that part of the stage, the last few branches will be put above the sky, giving the player a rush a adrenaline. the boss can be on top of a spinning flower, and if you got the rail grinding down, you can be able to use the handle to grind up to Robotnik.

Lull-lightened forest (or something like that): this stage is the same stage that Shay talked about, the laser and everything. but for act 2, you see even more of what Robotnik did to the forest, Forest fires are beginning to form and there's little to no grass on the burnt ground, there are no mechanics, only obstacles. Nothing about the forest is left. no boss in this stage, you just keep going.

The next few stages can take place during night, while Robotnik destroys the rest of the world:

Tune Town Zone: A Town with a plethora of sounds and songs depending on which part of the street you go to:

Jazz Street

Classic Street

Genesis Street

Funk Street

Rock Street

and Dubstep Street

Each street will have Different Mechanics, Obstacles and second Acts

No matter how different the acts are, they all have the same idea: a laser destroys the boombox's, making the music sound more distorted and low pitched depending on which street you choose. almost like the music is washed out and lifeless. it truly explains the drama that Robotnik can create, making him feel more of a heartless villain, who will destroy the best of the world to get what he wants.

Robo Ranch Zone: This level will take place in the desolate factory of robotnik's launching bay, it starts of near a metallic bay, you'll need to use waves as a way of move around quicker, fog descents out of the bay as you proceed through the level. Act 2 can take place on the launching zone of the space laser, you'll begin to transverse up this humungous structure and when you reach the top, you ride on top of the rocket as you dodge lasers that are constantly being fired you way, when you finally reach outer space, the final level begins

Space Laser Zone: The Dark and Empty space station, it be your average run of the mill death egg zone, since I can't think of anything. The Badniks are extremely menacing and lifeless, having no depth into them (like the death egg). if someone can think of a level for both acts and mechanic, and obstacles, I'd appreciate it.

Now for the Story, I thought of pointing something out. during the adventure and dark age games, sonic was taken relatively to extremely seriously, which for some people thought it was a bit much because "it's a blue hedgehog that runs fast" but in the colors era, sonic was turned into a Crappy Saturday Cartoon, which some older sonic fans found atrocious because it was nowhere near what he was in the past. but what about the classic games? they aren't completely serous or comedic, the classics follow a tone that fits sonic nicely: Neutrality. while there were stakes (the death egg rising) and light laughs (Knuckles being electrocuted) it kept a very grounded and stable tone. and while you can argue that the classic don't have stories, just gameplay with cutscenes, those cutscenes still tell a nice and compelling story almost seamlessly. even in Sonic's debut, it had a theme of "nature vs. technology" in the gameplay. in CD that theme was taken to an extreme, using visuals and atmospheric/Fast-Paced music to sell the level, and inspire the player to keep moving forward. So how do I think Shaymay did it? Wonderfully, absolutely Wonderfully! there were stakes, there were light laughs, a neutral tone, a compelling world, and examples of atmospheric music to boot.

alright now time for a controversial topic, continuity.

Humans: I wanna make a few points clear, I believed that humans could be in sonic since the beginning, I was born in a time where SpongeBob SquarePants was in his prime and It has humans in it) some people don't like humans in sonic, in which I never understand why that's the case since Robonik is human. but after 06, I can see where they come from. so what do we do to fix this? well I have an I idea, how about we use the same art principals as the Sonic Adventure art-style, for example: TWIP's channel image

despite still looking and being human, it still has the same shading, eyes, and overall cartoon look that sonic and his animal buddies have. if all of the other humans have this design they can still flourish in Mobius. there should also be a balance between Anthros and humans, no race should out-weigh each other, making it feel believable and grounded.

Mobius: the world of sonic could also use some continuity. to get things started, the planet should be named mobius, Humans and Anthros should co-exist mobius, mobius should be a magical world full of wonderous islands. the world shouldn't just be limited to just islands however, or a non-realistic city. To quote JebTube, in his "What Made Sonic Adventure So Good?" Video, "I never it as stark contrast, because I just assumed that sonic and friends were now exploring bigger places" so let's use the united nations as continents that have both Anthros and Humans can live in and use the islands as places native anthros usually live in. 

however for now, that is completely all the topics I wanted to cover, and i hope you guys found this enjoyable and come back (it's empty without people here). 

Edited July 24, 2020 by iambitter21
first time me was cringey...