Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[RetroRy]

KP Update from SDCC today (because spending money to have a table there 3 years in a row to promote something you have ABSOLUTELY NO product for makes sense):

Can anyone confirm his table is a "happening spot"?  I mean anyone can sell out of a book if you only have 1-2 copies... (just apply the classic Penders inflation design and you can make anything sound incredible when its actually mediocre)

[The Tenth Doctor]

I have heard that at Cons like these, kids buy ANYTHING with Sonic's face on them. Considering this is all he sells, he will get sales. They won't be there for Su.

[horridus]

Yeah, this happens each year. The Sonic stuff he hoardes sells well and sells fast, because that's something people actually want to buy. Afterwards the traffic tends to pretty much just dry up. It ain't Lara-Su the people are after. 

[Zaysho]

You know, the more I look at the designs for K'nox, Xero, and Remington, the more uncomfortable I get. If they weren't so heavily modeled on human anatomy with Sonic heads stuck on top, I feel there could be appeal to them. But when I look at Remington, I only see "pantless dude with Knuckles head." The way the shirt falls and everything just gives me that impression--and I can tell I'm not alone. Like, if there are no sexual hang-ups in the society present in LSC... why have clothes at all? Why not give them other types of accessories? Give certain types of uniforms to higher up individuals or whatever. At least design things that could fit with the culture he's trying to convey. I dunno. I might be tempted to try my hand at a redesign later--it probably won't be better, but it's something I'd like to play with for the hell of it.

 

29 minutes ago, chaosjam said:

Also when did Penders copyright "Mobian"? (Serious question)

He doesn't have a copyright on "Mobius" per se, but, he once said something to the effect that he "picked it up at the Goodwill SEGA and Archie left it." In other words, he's chosen to use Mobius because SEGA has essentially abandoned the term (though we still have stuff like "Mobini" peppered throughout the comic).

And, yeah, not surprised he's selling out Sonic stuff specifically. I find it hilarious he's selling Archie's reprints as if this is somehow necessarily going to make people jump on board with LSC. I mean, what he's doing isn't illegal or anything, it's just funny he's still holding on to Sonic's coattails. He's in for a rude awakening when he realizes these books are out of print.

[therealfalconpawnch77]

6 hours ago, Zaysho said:

He's in for a rude awakening when he realizes these books are out of print.

His Booth traffic is about to take a big nose dive, or like Zaysho said, he's realizing the books are out of print and he can't do much about that.

[horridus]

6 hours ago, Zaysho said:

And, yeah, not surprised he's selling out Sonic stuff specifically. I find it hilarious he's selling Archie's reprints as if this is somehow necessarily going to make people jump on board with LSC. I mean, what he's doing isn't illegal or anything, it's just funny he's still holding on to Sonic's coattails. He's in for a rude awakening when he realizes these books are out of print.

That awakening may be happening faster than anticipated. Check it. I just checked his twitter- evidently this is gonna be the last year he sells Sonic back issues, because there 'isn't enough room to properly display everything'. Personally I'm calling BS, but hey, at least he has taken a first, very important step in weaning himself off of Sonic. Granted, this could mean that he will still be selling whatever archives he can get his hands on... 

Edit: D'oh, Ninja'd ID; 

[King Scoopa Koopa]

16 hours ago, The Tenth Doctor said:

I have heard that at Cons like these, kids buy ANYTHING with Sonic's face on them. Considering this is all he sells, he will get sales. They won't be there for Su.

Lucky for them, because there's no Su to be there for.

[horridus]

On 7/21/2016 at 1:05 PM, chaosjam said:

Guys and Gals...there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for this horrible modern character design:

SEE?!  Totally makes sense!  So adult and relatable to modern times. It blows the minds of all who now understand this incredibly creative explanation. </sarcasm>

I missed this, so I might as well comment on it but... wow, there are so many violations of logic going on here. All the peoples of Mobius go without pants? All of them? There's no variation, no differing standards of what's appropriate or stylish? And it's purely because they're all a bunch of sexualy liberated hippies? They're all just.... exactly the same, round the board? Does he think that the human cultures who invented pants purely did so because of sexual hang ups and that they are worn today for the same reason? Why do they wear tunics that look like oversized shirts that conveniently cover up their crotches then? 

Oh, I know it's quite useless to ponder these things. They're pantless purely because he can't unglue himself from Sonic, and the 'no sexual hang-ups' thing is because the various peoples of Mobius aren't people, but are basically a bunch of cardboard cutouts and slogans meant to prove himself 'more-progressive-than-thou'. It's a particularly obnoxious form of classical utopian sci-fi thought, the kind that would precisely appeal to Penders' particular brand of liberalism- standing on high and telling the plebian cavemen (whose money he craves all the same) how wrong they are and how they should be more like HIS perfect special snowflake people, for whom the complexities of reality need not apply, unlike the filthy savage ape people to whom this is preached. 

Gag me. 

 

[Tylinos]

Because that certainly won't bring up any legal problems with using Knuckles and co.  Come on, Ken, really?  Even trying to reprint them for free could create some iffy legal waters, at the very least, especially when it comes to trademark dilution.

 

EDIT: Speaking of which...

 

[horridus]

Times like this make me wonder what the heck goes on in his head. Claiming his insipid series-that-will-never-be is canonically connected to a franchise he has no copyright over is already dangerously teetering into infringement. Selling materials that very explicitly feature characters who he doesn't own, in direction connection to what he claims is uniquely *his* creation? That's just asking for a world of trouble. 

I wonder if he intends to re-write the names of the SEGA characters in a vain attempt to disguise what they are. If not, then he had better hope SEGA's apathy to his existence will perservere even in the face of him directly intertwining THEIR characters with his work and trying to directly profit from it. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Well, looks like Archie and SEGA are gonna be copyrighting his ass for directly lifting issues featuring their characters, and using it in a for-profit piece of work.

I swear, this should be Ken Penders' theme song:

Or if you don't like that one, here's an alternative:

 

The Three Stooges: Starring.....Lara-Su, Lien-Da, and of course Ken Penders.

[horridus]

Well, frankly, I'm at a losss. Someone with more knowledge of copyright law explain this to me, because frankly, I'm not really seeing how he can publish and profit from stories that feature characters he 100% does not own. 

 

[Tenko]

I was questioning that too, technically he owns the "stories" in the issues involved, but in a lot of the remaining issues he didn't pencil, or ink the pages themselves, trying to sell that work for profit would just undermine the whole creators rights thing he supposidly fights for. He also obviously doesnt own the Sega characters like Knuckles or the Chaotix. He certainly couldn't sell them if he did reprint them unless he made a financial contract with Sega and the original artists on the issues involved. Which is not at all likely.

Unless he plans to redraw the issues and change the text etc to remove offending materials. If that's the case then jeebus man finish what you have started before going back and essentially starting yet another project that will ultimately delay your new series even longer...or perhaps that's the point.

Also when looking at the issues involved it struck me as interesting that the very next issue in the next archive would have been the one with the horrible stolen holocaust poem in the forward...I have to wonder if perhaps Archie didn't want to go through all that palava again. Sure they could remove it...but maybe ol Penders wouldn't agree to that..then it gets canceled. Just spitballing.

[Zaysho]

It's been a while since I've looked into any of this but... SEGA owns the rights to the Knuckles series and several Archie issues. They did this shortly after Ken's crusade began.

Did something change regarding this after the lawsuit was dismissed four years ago or what (I'm going off his "And if Archie doesn't publish KNUCKLES #22 through #32, I will" tweet)? And, even then, if he's going to publish his Future Mobius and Knuckles stories through his app, wouldn't this set off a red flag at SEGA anyway because Sonic, Knuckles, Sally, and a host of characters he doesn't own feature as prominently as Julie-Su or Lara-Su? I just don't see how he can make this work. Not to mention, if we assume he owns the rights to the scripts, then it stands to reason the artists that worked on them probably have their individual rights too, so unless he had them sign over their rights, he'd be paying royalties, which I don't think is something he'd want to do.

With how far this mess has gotten in half a decade, with damn near nothing to show for it, I continue to wonder what the point of this is anymore. Like, geez, just finish the book or move on to something that doesn't have a legal nightmare attached to it.

42 minutes ago, Tenko said:

Also when looking at the issues involved it struck me as interesting that the very next issue in the next archive would have been the one with the horrible stolen holocaust poem in the forward...I have to wonder if perhaps Archie didn't want to go through all that palava again. Sure they could remove it...but maybe ol Penders wouldn't agree to that..then it gets canceled. Just spitballing.

Thinking about this, Archie isn't above editing works for whatever reason. The one story with Sally bathing in the Source of All (from Pen's "Girls Rule!" super special) was censored so that she was always wearing her vest (which, I'm not sure how this helps because it's open and... you know, I'm not going to bother trying to understand the logic of this). I would think they'd either cut the frontispiece that featured the plagiarised poem altogether or remove the offending bit and publish it as is. It's not actually relevant to the story it's attached to, is it?

[horridus]

12 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

Not to mention, if we assume he owns the rights to the scripts, then it stands to reason the artists that worked on them probably have their individual rights too, so unless he had them sign over their rights, he'd be paying royalties, which I don't think is something he'd want to do.

Remember when he announced that he was planning on buying up the copyrights of the other writers and such who worked on the comic, pre-reboot? Ignoring that we have heard nothing else regarding that since that time, one of the reasons he gave was his belief that he could 'give them a better deal than Archie', or IDW for that matter- I remember him claiming he was doing it to secure their rights if in the event that the Sonic lisence was ever given over to IDW and they decided to start reprinting their works. Ignoring that he was also in utter denial about the possibility that if such a thing happened, IDW would either start anew entirely or just continue off the post-reboot continuity rather than dredging up the expenses that would be involved in the legal clusterfuck of the old continuity... 

Well, either way, he's alluded to the idea that he would not be opposed to paying others royalties if he had the copyrights. How much of that he means though, given that he pilfered the name of his series from Paul Agnew and has utilized photographs and graphics he doesn't own without permission or credit, is still pretty questionable. 

[Tylinos]

5 minutes ago, horridus said:

I remember him claiming he was doing it to secure their rights if in the event that the Sonic lisence was ever given over to IDW and they decided to start reprinting their works. Ignoring that he was also in utter denial about the possibility that if such a thing happened, IDW would either start anew entirely or just continue off the post-reboot continuity rather than dredging up the expenses that would be involved in the legal clusterfuck of the old continuity...

Remember, this is also the man who claimed just two months ago that it's "highly unlikely Archie will publish Sonic past 2016," while all signs as of now point to them ramping up their Sonic activities, rather than wrapping them up.  Ken hasn't had the greatest track record on understanding how companies do business like this.

[Zaysho]

17 minutes ago, horridus said:

Well, either way, he's alluded to the idea that he would not be opposed to paying others royalties if he had the copyrights. How much of that he means though, given that he pilfered the name of his series from Paul Agnew and has utilized photographs and graphics he doesn't own without permission or credit, is still pretty questionable. 

Yeah, this is why I'm not sure I believe he'd follow through. Never mind if he owned everything outright, I feel like he wouldn't have any incentive to actually pay, unless he'd actually stipulate this in whatever contract he drafts with the other creators. And this is without getting into what he thinks "counts" as meaningful work in comic production (inking, coloring, and lettering apparently don't).

In either case, pre-reboot anything is essentially dead, for better or worse, reprints have stopped, and, as you say, if a publisher like IDW got the rights to Sonic, they aren't going to touch that material if they use Archie material at all. This all just sounds like lip service to creators' rights that I don't think he'd back up.

6 minutes ago, Tylinos said:

Remember, this is also the man who claimed just two months ago that it's "highly unlikely Archie will publish Sonic past 2016," while all signs as of now point to them ramping up their Sonic activities, rather than wrapping them up.  Ken hasn't had the greatest track record on understanding how companies do business like this.

Pen still thinks this company is being run the same irresponsible way it was run when he was working for it in the mid-90s, so it's not surprising he thinks Sonic's still hanging on by a thread despite it actually surviving the bullshit that plagued their Action imprint in the last year and being afforded more opportunities like "Mega Drive" (which is receiving a second printing--something none of Archie's non-flagship books have gotten) and who knows what else they have planned, especially with the new games coming next year.

[horridus]

29 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

Pen still thinks this company is being run the same irresponsible way it was run when he was working for it in the mid-90s, so it's not surprising he thinks Sonic's still hanging on by a thread despite it actually surviving the bullshit that plagued their Action imprint in the last year and being afforded more opportunities like "Mega Drive" (which is receiving a second printing--something none of Archie's non-flagship books have gotten) and who knows what else they have planned, especially with the new games coming next year.

Penders opinion on how Archie is doing ping-pongs based upon whatever is most convenient for whatever point he is trying to make. They're doing as well or as terrible as he needs them to, dependent upon how much said status is able to boost him. The only thing that is consistent is the inconsistence, along with the *in*sistence that his word is law regarding the subject... along with his various other comic book industry insights and snapple facts. 

Thinking about this, Archie isn't above editing works for whatever reason. The one story with Sally bathing in the Source of All (from Pen's "Girls Rule!" super special) was censored so that she was always wearing her vest (which, I'm not sure how this helps because it's open and... you know, I'm not going to bother trying to understand the logic of this). I would think they'd either cut the frontispiece that featured the plagiarised poem altogether or remove the offending bit and publish it as is. It's not actually relevant to the story it's attached to, is it?

Other than as a heavy handed, vulgar attempt to paint the ineptly executed themes of the story as being more symbolic and mature than they really are? No. No, they are not even remotely relevant, and I could literally dedicated *pages* of words to explaining all the myriad things wrong with them and their relationship to that storyline as well as Ken's insistence that he was doing anybody a favor with that pathetic attempt to allude to and incorporate the rise of Nazisim within the books. 

[RobotnikHolmes]

When did Penders say this?? Because if this is to be believed, this is basically his plan all along, right there on his official Twitter. For everyone to see. Including SEGA and Archie.

Edit: Sorry its really small for some reason

[horridus]

The more Penders makes tweets like this, the less inclined I am to believe him, given how... convenient, it all is. Particularly since around the time he was writing the Knuckles books, Knuckles was already at the peak of his popularity as a character in the games and not yet in the process of being relegated to the background. Not that it was enough to save the books from Penders' writing. 

[Tylinos]

 

5 minutes ago, RobotnikHolmes said:

When did Penders say this?? Because if this is to be believed, this is basically his plan all along, right there on his official Twitter. For everyone to see. Including SEGA and Archie.

A few days ago.  In fairness to him, I think he was quoting them as a joke about how someone thinks he "took back Knuckles", rather than trying to brag or anything.

[horridus]

Just now, Tylinos said:

A few days ago.  In fairness to him, I think he was quoting them as a joke about who someone thinks he "took back Knuckles", rather than trying to brag or anything.

In fairness to everybody else, he has legitimately stated that he 'gave Knuckles value as a character'. It's kinda hard to tell really, with him, given that even something that could be construed as joking still sounds AWFULLY close to various self-important statements he really has made in the past... 

[QuantumEdge]

I don't know, sounds like some parent who comically got their facts wrong.  Unfortunately for Ol' Kenny though my belief in that possibility is shaken a little, since he's never proven to be above bigging up his "contributions" to the franchise, which, as we all know, are not as vital and important to Sega as he kids himself into thinking. 

Also, we're past page 247 now.  Guess we'll have to prepare for rebooting the thread once he takes legal action against us.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Even if he wrote the scripts, Penders would have absolutely no legal grounds for reprinting his work. Unlike Archie/SEGA, which supposedly started paying him royalties after the whole copyright mess that Penders started, this would be an entirely different situation. Forget the artists for a moment, Keep in mind who is featured promitedly in Mobius 25 Years Later. The Sonic cast. If Penders were to reprint that work himself, he'd be breaking the law for using trademarked and copyrighted characters in a for-profit piece of work without the permission of SEGA. So you know how much he claimed SEGA have broken the law against him and his creator rights? SEGA would now have full right to slap down a cease and desist on his work, or they could go one step further, and actually take Penders to court, especially for Fuckles, because the inclusion of previous stories that featured these characters promitedly makes it obvious that K'Nox is Knuckles.

[Tenko]

To be fair he did mention releasing M25L on the app for free. So it wouldnt be for profit.

Thing is tho it may end up breaking some other statuate in the process. It could be seen as being used to promote the app, which in turn would bring income from people attracted via the free material, people whome may end up purchasing his paid products from said app.

If unaltered it could also cause customer confusion, which Archie could work with as a basis for a case. Which product is the continuation of the comics the app is distributing, Penders things on the app or the Archie comics. Especially with him constantly posting on his Twitter with replies like "find out what happens after <insert thing person asked about from the original run of comics here> in TLSC/Storm".

But again, I imagine he doesn't have the legal right to even give away issues he didn't pencil, colour or edit, let alone own character rights to some of the cast etc just because he owns the stories inside, especially as a way to fill and promote his app. Unless he plans it to be a text only release with names and places changed >.<