Sonic 4 thread

[Indigo Rush]

Ironically, having Tails do less would have been the better move.

[Blue Blood]

If it meant that the game wasn't designed around arbitrary, unfun and forced gimmick moves, then I absolutely agree. 

[Komodin]

What I want to know is, why is Tails a multiplayer-exclusive playable to begin with? Did they think they could have their cake with the "Sonic-Only" crowd and eat it, too?

[TheOcelot]

Ironically, having Tails do less would have been the better move.

They should have allowed you to play as Tails solo.

[Blue Blood]

They didn't do that because Tails can literally do everything Sonic can do, except open the little warp-machine-things in Sky Fortress 3. HA areas he can fly over (or jump bounce off of the enemies), and snow in White Park requires the combo spindash. Basically, S4E2 doesn't need Sonic. Tails can just do it all himself.

 

Just try it. Boot up a local co-op game in E2 and just control Tails.

[Komodin]

Because Tails can literally do everything Sonic can do, except open the little warp-machine-things in Sky Fortress 3. HA areas he can fly over (or jump bounce off of the enemies), and snow in White Park requires the combo spindash. Basically, S4E2 doesn't need Sonic. Tails can just do it all himself.

 

Just try it. Boot up a local co-op game in E2 and just control Tails.

 

So, they were too lazy to bother with learning to character balance to not make Sonic look so meh in comparison. Okay.

[Blue Blood]

So, they were too lazy to bother with learning to character balance to not make Sonic look so meh in comparison. Okay.

More or less. I mean, they had the issue in S3K, but it's not something they couldn't have really fixed big time in S4.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

 

We understand your stance a little better now, don't worry about it. Please just be careful with your wording. I understand there may be a language barrier as well, so I guess that may account for a lot of stuff.

 

Just keep in mind the situation you've put yourself in. First of all, and this has been said to you many times by pretty much all of us in both the threads and the status updates, it is perfectly fine for you to like and enjoy Sonic 4 over the other 2D Sonic games, even the original ones on the Genesis. That should not be an issue in any way, and I want you to know that of all Sonic-related forums on the Internet, over here we take greater care in respecting each other's opinions. We even appreciate that you realize that most of us here do not like Sonic 4 the way you do, and that should be fine as well. There are no hang-ups regarding this, so this shouldn't be an issue.

 

Which Im sorry for not expressing myself right. And Im also sorry for taking it personally. I did because I say I like Sonic 4 on Sega and people say that people like me are the reason we have bad Sonic games. And I cant even say I hate the Advance games without someone attacking my skills and calling me spoiled.  So i thought you guys were doing the same when you got angry when I didnt like the classic games. but i was a misunderstanding on my part and Im very sorry.

 

I hope you can forgive me.

[Indigo Rush]

No harm done! People saying that fans like you are the reason we have sub-par Sonic games are only kidding themselves. The fault ultimately lies with the developers and directors, not the consumers.

 

You're totally fine.

[Phos]

This game, particularly episode 1, embodies a certain failing that most newer Sonic games share in a very pure sense, that the controls lack a level of fluency that this sort of game needs. When you aren't playing it in the way the designers seem to have intended, namely a very homing attack and spin dash dependent style, there's no life to them, they're very sluggish that leaves you relying on the new moves (really the spin dash as seen here is basically a new move), it's not a fluent style, your character is jerking around propelled by parts of the level and whatever unseen force causes the homing attack.

They also share the same problem as every other recent 2D Sonic game, no sense of place. This issue actually started showing up as early as Sonic 3's less savory levels in fact, a complete lack of any sense of place within the levels. How parts of levels are laid out has no bearing on where they are in that level. Flying battery zone is an example of this done well, low in the level you actually traverse structures on the underside, high in the level you can actually get on the roof. That sort of logic has gone missing. Not every level needs it (Labyrinth Zone comes to mind) but many types can benefit from it.

[Sami]

This game, particularly episode 1, embodies a certain failing that most newer Sonic games share in a very pure sense, that the controls lack a level of fluency that this sort of game needs. When you aren't playing it in the way the designers seem to have intended, namely a very homing attack and spin dash dependent style, there's no life to them, they're very sluggish that leaves you relying on the new moves (really the spin dash as seen here is basically a new move), it's not a fluent style, your character is jerking around propelled by parts of the level and whatever unseen force causes the homing attack.

They also share the same problem as every other recent 2D Sonic game, no sense of place. This issue actually started showing up as early as Sonic 3's less savory levels in fact, a complete lack of any sense of place within the levels. How parts of levels are laid out has no bearing on where they are in that level. Flying battery zone is an example of this done well, low in the level you actually traverse structures on the underside, high in the level you can actually get on the roof. That sort of logic has gone missing. Not every level needs it (Labyrinth Zone comes to mind) but many types can benefit from it.

This "sense of place" is something I've really started to miss in the 3D games as well. Regardless of the actual quality of their gameplay, I always felt appreciation for the level design in Sonic Adventure and Sonic Unleashed. I felt both really nailed the level design in this regard.

[Milo]

So, they were too lazy to bother with learning to character balance to not make Sonic look so meh in comparison. Okay.

 

 

More or less. I mean, they had the issue in S3K, but it's not something they couldn't have really fixed big time in S4.

 

I'm pretty sure it's also because having Tails playable solo would essentially require designing levels suited around his abilities (namely more expansive level design), which judging their work seems to go against their MO on having level design that isn't expansive or automated as well as making game mechanics that did not dictate how the game would be designed. Making him a compulsory co-op character was not only the easier route, but would also keep him on a leash so he was in bounds of their game design philosophies.

 

With the knowledge of Episode I's gameplay and level design essentially being designed around the use of the Homing Attack, I recall speculation back at the Sega Forums on how Dimps would implement Tails in the second episode. Some were speculating that they would give him the Homing Attack like. Others were Sonic and Tails to be separately playable, but without the co-op. Nobody was speculating for him to be implemented as as a mandatory co-op character until the screenshots were released, and most people that did consider the idea around that time immediately discredited it as completely absurd.

 

 

This game, particularly episode 1, embodies a certain failing that most newer Sonic games share in a very pure sense, that the controls lack a level of fluency that this sort of game needs. When you aren't playing it in the way the designers seem to have intended, namely a very homing attack and spin dash dependent style, there's no life to them, they're very sluggish that leaves you relying on the new moves (really the spin dash as seen here is basically a new move), it's not a fluent style, your character is jerking around propelled by parts of the level and whatever unseen force causes the homing attack.

 

This lack of fluency is practically what I was trying to say above regarding Tails and Episode II. Tails made playable with his flying abilities intact in Sonic 4, without some sort of trade-off, would transcend how Dimps designs their games and how they want people to play their games. ST/Dimps decided that trade off would be the ability to play the character by himself, so he was chained down to Sonic as a compulsory co-op character.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

No harm done! People saying that fans like you are the reason we have sub-par Sonic games are only kidding themselves. The fault ultimately lies with the developers and directors, not the consumers.

 

You're totally fine.

Can I (in the right way) explain why I dont like the classic games like this one?

[FriendBot]

I'm actually kind of curious on how you dislike the Classics, so please do!

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I'm actually kind of curious on how you dislike the Classics, so please do!

Its the feel of them. I play Sonic 4 for my first 2D Sonic game and then I play Sonic Colors DS and Sonic Rush games and then I play the old games. For examples:

 

 

i had some trouble getting up the slopes in all 3 games if they were to up wards. and it was a pain to bo back and try to run a full speeds so i can get up the slopes. This was the big thing with the Advance games and loops and slopes. Its like even if i run at the full speeds i cant get up those things without spindashing or if I was Amy I was stuck until I go back. Im not a unskilled Sonic player. I can do this no problem in Sonic 4, Sonic Rush and Sonic Colors DS. I can get up those things just fine.

 

 

The water levels in the old games drag. Im usually good with water levels. I like water levels... especially from Sonic 4 and Sonic Colors (3D) but the old games dont have the same water speeds at those games. I just drag and I had trouble jumping in aome parts.

 

I will say, I think the spindash from Sonic 2 3 and Knuckles, 4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spindash from Sonic Advance. God, that was horrible. if they make the spindash useless why put it there?? this is my opinion only.

 

this is all my opinion only its nt fact.

[FriendBot]

Its the feel of them. I play Sonic 4 for my first 2D Sonic game and then I play Sonic Colors DS and Sonic Rush games and then I play the old games. For examples:

 

 

i had some trouble getting up the slopes in all 3 games if they were to up wards. and it was a pain to bo back and try to run a full speeds so i can get up the slopes. This was the big thing with the Advance games and loops and slopes. Its like even if i run at the full speeds i cant get up those things without spindashing or if I was Amy I was stuck until I go back. Im not a unskilled Sonic player. I can do this no problem in Sonic 4, Sonic Rush and Sonic Colors DS. I can get up those things just fine.

 

 

The water levels in the old games drag. Im usually good with water levels. I like water levels... especially from Sonic 4 and Sonic Colors (3D) but the old games dont have the same water speeds at those games. I just drag and I had trouble jumping in aome parts.

 

I will say, I think the spindash from Sonic 2 3 and Knuckles, 4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spindash from Sonic Advance. God, that was horrible. if they make the spindash useless why put it there?? this is my opinion only.

 

this is all my opinion only its nt fact.

 

Yeah, it is quite difficult to maintain speed in Sonic 1 but that's where the rolling physics come in. Having trouble going up a slope? Roll around to get around it. That's why a lot of people likes the rolling physics. It's the next best thing to the spindash. All water levels in the classic games were pretty slow-paced except Hydrocity, and it makes ense since Sonic and water don't really mix. The spindash from Sonic 4 is arguably more useless than the spindash from Advance since you just jump dash to achieve max speed but I digress.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

its hard to get speeds in all the games Sonic 1 2 3 and Knuckles. its good in Sonic 2 but the others is very hard to even get up a slope. Same with the Advance games but their pacing was the slowest in my opinion

[FriendBot]

Again, it's a great feeling when you overcome that obstacle with the rolling physics. 4 doesn't give you that pleasure since you can already achieve max speed by jump dashing. I prefer having some sort of difficulty in a sonic game, that's my problem with the recent games like Generations. They're way too easy to beat and 100%, I want to be challenged to complete a game and when I do, it gives off a strong feeling.

[Indigo Rush]

Its the feel of them. I play Sonic 4 for my first 2D Sonic game and then I play Sonic Colors DS and Sonic Rush games and then I play the old games. For examples:

 

 

i had some trouble getting up the slopes in all 3 games if they were to up wards. and it was a pain to bo back and try to run a full speeds so i can get up the slopes. This was the big thing with the Advance games and loops and slopes. Its like even if i run at the full speeds i cant get up those things without spindashing or if I was Amy I was stuck until I go back. Im not a unskilled Sonic player. I can do this no problem in Sonic 4, Sonic Rush and Sonic Colors DS. I can get up those things just fine.

 

 

The water levels in the old games drag. Im usually good with water levels. I like water levels... especially from Sonic 4 and Sonic Colors (3D) but the old games dont have the same water speeds at those games. I just drag and I had trouble jumping in aome parts.

 

I will say, I think the spindash from Sonic 2 3 and Knuckles, 4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spindash from Sonic Advance. God, that was horrible. if they make the spindash useless why put it there?? this is my opinion only.

 

this is all my opinion only its nt fact.

 

I actually rather sympathize with your complaints, but I would like to appeal to you the initial mindset behind the level design and overall gameplay philosophy of the Genesis Sonics. 

 

The core component of any Sonic game is most certainly speed, but how you obtain speed, how necessary it is to overcome obstacles and how quantifiably fast the player can go has always varied to some degree. So I suppose it's natural that you feel underwhelmed by the older games after having played the newer more modern iterations where Sonic's measurable speed is consistently faster, especially if said modern games were your first entries into the Sonic series. From that angle, I think we can understand and empathize with that point. 

 

Here's the key to understanding the classic games, though; Genesis Sonic isn't about his quantifiable speed, but the necessity of his speed. Think hard about it. When you get to a slope as the one you mentioned in your initial post, you might not be quick enough to pass it. Sonic slows down to almost a molasses-like pace that makes Mario look like Usain Bolt on crack and Chaos Emeralds. So what gives? Is Sonic not fast enough to clear those slopes, loops and ramps? Clearly he is, as the game can only be completed by passing those obstacles... and that's the point. He needs speed.

 

The answer is as you said, you need to jog the other way and build your speed up again either by compounding momentum by running, rolling downhill or by using the spin-dash to get that needed boost of speed. While it most certainly proves to be a halt to your perceived sense of flow, rather it actually fits right in with the pacing of the rest of the game. Those moments where you run so fast that the floor melts or you can defy gravity by running through shuttle loops are actually quite few and sparsed out in comparison to the rather evenly paced jog that you need to maintain through careful timing and platforming prowess. This is also another important point: the way Sonic obtains his speed in the Genesis games is through careful timing of your jumps, and knowing when to use the roll rather than pressing a boost button, and less about relying on twitch-reaction like the modern games.

 

This is because the game doesn't just want to shovel speed right into your face. It's a psychological aspect to the games that actually make it a bit more deeper than the newer games. Speed isn't handed to you, you need to earn the speed; and even when you do get your speed fix, you're only able to achieve "over-clocked" speeds in certain areas that allow it; one example being those frenzied loop sequences in Chemical Plant Zone or Ice Cap Zone, in which case it's actually possible to go even faster by timing your roll just after the apex of the loop, giving you a satisfying burst of euphoric speed, especially in the context with the pacing for the rest of the game.

 

But more to the point, it's not even just that. It's more than the game giving you speed every now and then so you can appreciate those moments better, but it shows that in order to even pass a simple slope, you need speed. Sonic needs to be fast in order to even go through a measly ramp. Classic Sonic has weight to him, and if you want to stop Dr Eggman and save the world, you needs to use his speed. This overall design philosophy can actually make Sonic seem faster because those moments of speed can easily be linked to any dopamime releases in your brain when you see him blaze through those corkscrews, loops and tubes at supersonic speeds. 

 

Combine that with some good, genuine, solid platforming sections (many of which can also be blazed through if you're skilled enough) and a few moments of slowdown to keep you itching for more, you have yourself a beautifully crafted game that not only emphasizes speed, it treats it like an unparalleled reward that is given to you after you've worked hard to master it.

 

Comparing this to games like Sonic Unleashed or Sonic Rush where Sonic's maximum speed is unleashed at the press of a button, the experience seems shallow, but not just because the speed is given to you right then and there. Don't get me wrong, that's a big part of why they seem shallower, but because the game as a whole is built around achieving those supersonic speeds at a simple button press, the levels need to be designed to accommodate this... and since running really fast is pretty much about moving forward or right depending on your camera perspective, you'll have fewer moments where carefully timed platforming will significantly enhance the overall experience. In fact, those platforming sections are ironically dreaded for breaking the overall high-speed pacing that the rest of those games put before you.

 

With the Genesis Sonic games and the Advance games, speed is not the sole component, rather it is a major cog in a well-oiled machine with other important gears helping it work together. It's there, it's the main attraction, but it isn't the be-all end-all, so the older games use speed as a reward for traversing obstacles with skill and timing. This way, those slower moments aren't as jarring, and because of the slower overall speed in comparison to his over-clocked speed, it doesn't bother the player as much because they know that there may be a way to get through these sections faster if they find some shortcut or if they utilize their spindash or rolling, or of they time their jumps just right to gain some of that tantalizing speed.

 

Modern Sonic games on the other hand are built around that over-clock speed, and they add in slower platforming sections to break up the action rather than having those breakneck speeds add to the overall evenly-paced experience. It's actually the inverse of the older games, and it doesn't quite work as well, and this is why you could consider games like Sonic Generations or Sonic Rush as objectively worse than Sonic 2 or Sonic 3; their pacing isn't as even, and those moments that break the general pace are not rewarding, euphoric dopamine-releasing moments of breakneck speed, but rather annoying moments of slow-as-molasses platforming... whereas in Sonic 1, those slower moments are evened out by being able to achieve a sense of speed that is consistent throughout, so whenever you do break up the pacing with intense supersonic speed, it's rewarding rather than punishing.

 

So this is why many of us prefer Classic Sonic to Modern Sonic. It's not that the newer games are bad in their own right (they can be rather good, if not stellar if they do what they do best), it's that the original Sonic games have this wonderful balance to them where any newcomer can achieve a basic level of rewarding speed, while veterans and experienced players can unleash breakneck speeds by practicing hard enough, leading to some crazy speed runs, but even so, it's still balanced out with those slower moments.

 

tl;dr: It's a combination of spreading out those high speed moments so they never grow old, and making so that you need speed to get past even the most basic of obstacles. This is why the sense of speed in those older Sonic games can be greater than the newer ones. Rhythm and Balance.

 

I hope that helps you understand.

[FriendBot]

*claps*

 

What a beautifully made post you have made, Indigo! You pretty much said everything anybody was going to say about the matter! Sonic may be about speed but that is only the tip of the iceberg for the overall experience. If you can understand this, Sonikku! You can truly appreciate the classics!

[Indigo Rush]

Haha, I didn't even touch on the sense of exploration.

 

I like to break it down like this:

Sonic 1 focuses on platforming.

-Not a lot of speed sections and a few more platforming sections in comparison to later games

 

Sonic 2 focuses on speed.

-Lots of speed sections and fewer platforming sections in comparison to earlier and succeeding games

 

Sonic CD focuses on exploration.

-Fairly balanced speed and platforming sections, but heavily focused on finding time warp posts and robot generators

 

Sonic 3 & Knuckles has a perfect balance of all 3

-Equal and complimentary balance between speed and platforming, and lots of added benefits for playing as other characters or seeking out the hidden Warp Rings

 

All games incorporate speed, platforming and exploration into their level design and maintain the gameplay philosophies I mentioned earlier. Speed through reward and skill, platforming through timing your jumps and complimenting your speed, and exploration through finding alternate paths and hidden secrets, some of which also require speed and careful platforming to access. 

 

The sense of exploration was made equal with speed and platforming with Sonic 3 & Knuckles with the addition of extra characters and by hiding the Warp Rings in certain areas of the levels, some of which you can only access by playing as another character. There's a whole new dynamic when it comes to playing as other characters as well, as they have their alleged strengths and weaknesses. Best part is, half the time it's optional if you'd rather just blaze through the game straight forward.

 

tl;dr: Sonic 3 & Knuckles perfectly demonstrates everything I mentioned in my previous post, as well as emphasizing the essential element of exploration without compromising speed and platforming.

 

tl;dr2: Sonic 3 & Knuckles is the perfect Classic Sonic game.

 

tl;dr3: Sonic 3 & Knuckles is the perfect Sonic game.

 

tl;dr4: Sonic 3 & Knuckles is the perfect game.

 

[Agie]

I liked Sonic 4. Both episodes, though I never played Episode Metal, since I had the WiiWare version of Ep. I, since I was under the mistaken assumption that Ep. II would be on WiiWare as well. Not too long after getting my PS3, I ended up getting that version of Ep. II, because I wanted to play it.

 

I do agree they're not as good as Sonic 3 & Knuckles, though. Or Sonic CD, for that matter, but again, I felt they were good. Of course, not everyone liked them, and that's fine too.

[Dizcrybe]

I'd like to throw in that in Aquatic Ruin, if you're good enough, you can take a route that lets you skip the water completely (I've never been able to stay on that route, so I always just end up in the water anyway).

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I respect the classic morre now. I dont like them and I think they are dull games in my opinion. But I respect them.

[FriendBot]

I respect the classic morre now. I dont like them and I think they are dull games in my opinion. But I respect them.

 

Hey as long as you repect them, it's doesn't matter if you don't like them.