Sonics future

[SenEDDtor Missile]

The way I see it, a lot of the ire stems from the way the story is written in relation to the characters. If Sonic isn't getting trashed with his allies having their flaws downplayed by comparison, then his stories have him be in the high ground with everyone else being his inferior or making him out to be better than everyone else, even if it is not explicitly stated. There really aren't that many stories in the Sonic franchise that show everyone's strengths and weaknesses in a balanced or at least rational fashion. Everything nearly always ends up being an extreme.

[Nepenthe]

What are some examples of where Sonic has been seen as infinitely superior to his teammates without there being a point backing him? Or rather, when he has had the high ground, when has it been particularly undeserved for him to possess it?

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Never. Sometimes in 2-D hes seen as dull while his friends are better. There are also games that make Sonic seem like hes weak to the other characters like Shadow and the likes. When Sonic gets the high ground, he deserves it. Unlike the overpower characters thet get this ground on a platter, Sonic has to earn his way to the top.

[Kuzu]

Azure, I think you're somewhat overestimating Sonic's qualities in the grand scheme of things. Sonic is good at the things he does, but he cannot do everything. He cannot out-think Tails and Eggman, or out-punch Knuckles and out-DBZ Shadow (though none of this necessarily means he can't under any circumstances logically win against these two), or out-swim Vector. This is true for most heroes ever created; they have a subset of good talents and personality traits that translate naturally into leadership to some degree and general affability. A Mary Sue takes this to a ridiculous conclusion and essentially creates a character that really is good at solving everything on their own despite the abilities and experience of the rest of the cast members.

 

And let's not say Sonic has never been challenged. Sonic has pretty much struggled in most of the 3D games, whether it be due to the surprising competence of Eggman, the life-threatening exploits of his friends, or his own oversights. From trying damned hard to keep the Emeralds away from Eggman to nearly getting blown up in space, to being completely useless against an alien nerve gas and getting transformed into a werewolf and thrown to Earth, Sonic has had setbacks, struggles, and outright failures before that have been the result of either internal or external factors, and sometimes both.

 

Basically, Sonic is more Clark Kent than Wesley Crusher, and as a result, I think people are a little too enamored with seeing him ripped to shreds in a literary context- to see him fail, over and over and over again- under the guise of making him more "relatable" or something. Again, it's a shame to see that kind of ire and disinterest towards what should be an endearing protagonist. =/

 

I did kind of overestimate him a bit. I didn't really mean to say that Sonic literally is perfect, but rather that he's just really good at what he does, which is the point of the character to begin with. He has struggled in the past, just not as much as the rest of the cast, which is probably why everyone thinks he's this flawless figure or something.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

the problem is that he puts himself in more danger than everyone else

[Nepenthe]

I did kind of overestimate him a bit. I didn't really mean to say that Sonic literally is perfect, but rather that he's just really good at what he does, which is the point of the character to begin with. He has struggled in the past, just not as much as the rest of the cast, which is probably why everyone thinks he's this flawless figure or something.

Of course he's really good at running fast and taking out robots. He's not only the hero (I'm sorry, but being the hero in modern fiction usually means you are going to win a lot), but it's something he's done for years anyway. He talks about common tropes and habits of Eggman that allow him to parse out situations really quickly and get the job done, and why shouldn't he? It's something he has massive experience in.

 

And aside from, well, Shadow, who in the recurring cast has particularly struggled as much as Sonic has throughout the games? Really, who else has gone through the amount of crap that Sonic has? Just because he didn't want to give up against or wasn't particularly afraid of the evil sword goddess beating the shit out of him, doesn't mean he wasn't getting the shit beat out of him.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

And aside from, well, Shadow, who in the recurring cast has particularly struggled as much as Sonic has throughout the games? Really, who else has gone through the amount of crap that Sonic has? Just because he didn't want to give up against or wasn't particularly afraid of the evil sword goddess beating the shit out of him, doesn't mean he wasn't getting the shit beat out of him.

 

i said something like this:

 

The only character who comes CLOSE to be heroic like Sonic is someone I dont like... Shadow. Shadow died to save the world and he was much more heroic in Sonic X because he died twice saving the world. Shadow will be the second most heroic. Sonic always puts his life on the line. Sonic loves being Sonic and being free but he risks losing that everytime he steps into the battlefeild. Sonic had almost died many time in Sonic X and he got killed in Sonic 2006 but he still kept going to his friends. Sonic has gotten his powers drained and got a flame in him that will KILL him like a bomb if is doesnt do what it takes. And he still keeps saving the day! No one else has taken that risk except Shadow who died! So why are people angry when I say Sonic is more heroic..?? I think he clearly is.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

I think I phrased that poorly and incorrectly, so I'll try to explain with an example, in this case Sonic Unleashed and Lost World.

As you know, Sonic royally fucked up when he spent too much time gloating, and thus Eggman sucker punched him and broke the planet open like an egg, and Sonic gets really furry and gruff. Thing is, after this initial point, we never really get the impression that he actually feels bad for his part in royally fucking up the world (or a lot of other stuff for that matter), and thus it feels like his negative traits are being downplayed despite their role in the world breaking apart.

Now Lost World is this weird mishmash between over exaggerating the negatives of his action AND downplaying his action at the same time. Here, he royally screws up and allows the Deadly Six to go apeshit and do their evil shtick, and he rightfully notes his blunder.

And then he goes and nearly/repeats it several more times, thus giving the impression that he didn't really learn anything despite that kind of behavior getting them in trouble in the first place. This is further compounded by how everything in the end goes back to normal despite him never really learning from his mistakes. Thus it feels like he is both over exaggerated and downplayed at the same time.

I guess what I should have said at the beginning is that his traits in some stories tend to be over exaggerated, but no one ever calling him out on it or getting called out on it very frequently without him actually learning from it. Or in some cases having his traits downplayed even when they clearly shouldn't given the trait's part in causing a problem.

[Kuzu]

I honestly feel the problem isn't really with Sonic, but rather people being upset that their favorite characters aren't around. Its kinda saddening honestly.

[Wraith]

Even then, there's no point in antagonizing Sonic over it. They're really not doing much to glorify him these days.

[Kuzu]

Fans will be Fans dude.

[Nepenthe]

I think I phrased that poorly and incorrectly, so I'll try to explain with an example, in this case Sonic Unleashed and Lost World.

As you know, Sonic royally fucked up when he spent too much time gloating, and thus Eggman sucker punched him and broke the planet open like an egg, and Sonic gets really furry and gruff. Thing is, after this initial point, we never really get the impression that he actually feels bad for his part in royally fucking up the world (or a lot of other stuff for that matter), and thus it feels like his negative traits are being downplayed despite their role in the world breaking apart.

Now Lost World is this weird mishmash between over exaggerating the negatives of his action AND downplaying his action at the same time. Here, he royally screws up and allows the Deadly Six to go apeshit and do their evil shtick, and he rightfully notes his blunder.

And then he goes and nearly/repeats it several more times, thus giving the impression that he didn't really learn anything despite that kind of behavior getting them in trouble in the first place. This is further compounded by how everything in the end goes back to normal despite him never really learning from his mistakes. Thus it feels like he is both over exaggerated and downplayed at the same time.

I guess what I should have said at the beginning is that his traits in some stories tend to be over exaggerated, but no one ever calling him out on it or getting called out on it very frequently without him actually learning from it. Or in some cases having his traits downplayed even when they clearly shouldn't given the trait's part in causing a problem.

 

Fair enough, although in Unleashed's case, I feel there's two arguments to be had. One: is Sonic's inaction in getting duped more responsible for the Earth's destruction than, well, Eggman's actual action in blowing the world up? Essentially, was or was not Sonic a victim of circumstance? And two: is the Earth's mere destruction inherently as important to the plot as it has been deemed before to warrant Sonic feeling bad about this fact under the assumption that: yes, it is totally his fault in some way that the Earth was blown apart in the first place? I feel like the focus on the Earth being broken is missing the forest for the trees, because it was merely the catalyst for the real problem and not the end-all-be-all. 

 

And I didn't feel his flaws were particularly downplayed in Lost World inasmuch as he did acknowledge that they were a detriment to that particular situation. Also, I wouldn't count one more snap decision is several times rushing into things. Sonic did go for the machine in Silent Forest, but that was pretty much it. The rest of the time was spent with him dealing with the fallout of just everything crashing down around him. I do agree that his lesson was hamfisted, in as far as the thing he learned was irrelevant for multiple reasons.

 

I honestly feel the problem isn't really with Sonic, but rather people being upset that their favorite characters aren't around. Its kinda saddening honestly.

 

I've been massively put off by the hate-boner directed towards Sonic for awhile regardless of the fact that Sega are treating the secondary members as unimportant.

[Vertekins]

The assurance that the only way to make Sonic sympathetic or dimensional is to make him fuck-up something is a rather annoying one to me. Especially when both Storybook games accomplished so freaking much with Sonic's character without delegating him to being something akin to a failure hero or capitalizing on his foibles.

[TearForFear]

The assurance that the only way to make Sonic sympathetic or dimensional is to make him fuck-up something is a rather annoying one to me. Especially when both Storybook games accomplished so freaking much with Sonic's character without delegating him to being something akin to a failure hero or capitalizing on his foibles.

 

I think that by the end of the day SLW emphasized more Sonic's fragility rather than the fact that he can commits mistakes.

 

For me, it looks like destiny/Pontac really had fun on psycologically torturing Sonic: he's forced to watch his world, his friends and his foe Eggman die before his very eyes; his first and best friend gets angry at him, gets kidnapped because of him, and almost gets turned into a robot; and for the first time in his life he feels the feeling of solitude on his own skin.

 

"After a day like today, I could enjoy a nap on fresh green grass" Sonic said. And boy, he surely deserved to rest.

 

 

Pontac said "One mistake doesn’t make someone an idiot. It’s how they DEAL with the mistake that makes them a hero."

 

Well, when I look at this

I don't see a hero. I see a normal guy like you and me, a guy who can feel sadness when the situation is too hard too handle.

 

Which is better than being a hero who always faces adversities with a perpetual smile, at least for me.

[Silver*]

First, I want to say that me disliking Sonic has nothing to do with my favorite characters no longer being around and I don't appreciate people thinking that's automatically the case. But maybe I have NO reason to dislike him, in your eyes. But, you cannot force me to like him.

 

I don't share the same passion as the OP

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Basically, Sonic is more Clark Kent than Wesley Crusher, and as a result, I think people are a little too enamored with seeing him ripped to shreds in a literary context- to see him fail, over and over and over again- under the guise of making him more "relatable" or something. Again, it's a shame to see that kind of ire and disinterest towards what should be an endearing protagonist. =/

I want to see him get ripped to shreads because it just makes the eventual triumph all the more sweeter when he comes back from it. It's more of a scale or the stakes involved, as well as the execution - lord knows how Eggman beating Super Sonic and cracking the world in one move was nothing but sheer epic only for the rest of Unleashed to be relatively lukewarm later on until Eggmanland.

 

...that, and I want him ripped up so that other characters can have a shot to show their strengths where Sonic fails. But good luck getting that anytime soon since Sonic Team can't find a middle ground with the criticism.

[Kuzu]

First, I want to say that me disliking Sonic has nothing to do with my favorite characters no longer being around and I don't appreciate people thinking that's automatically the case. But maybe I have NO reason to dislike him, in your eyes. But, you cannot force me to like him.

 

I don't share the same passion as the OP

 

No one is saying you have to like him, but disliking him because he's the hero and he's good at being so seems flimsy. Its one thing to say you dislike him because you feel he doesn't earn most of his victories, which is a somewhat valid complaint, but its another to hate the role he's been given.

[Silver*]

No one is saying you have to like him, but disliking him because he's the hero and he's good at being so seems flimsy.

But him being the hero and being good at everything wasn't really the reason.

 

At the risk of sounding dramatic, everyone seemed to agree with Sonikku when she said that I was jealous. I am NOT jealous and this isn't about my favorite characters.

[Nepenthe]

I want to see him get ripped to shreads because it just makes the eventual triumph all the more sweeter when he comes back from it. It's more of a scale or the stakes involved, as well as the execution - lord knows how Eggman beating Super Sonic and cracking the world in one move was nothing but sheer epic only for the rest of Unleashed to be relatively lukewarm later on until Eggmanland.

 

...that, and I want him ripped up so that other characters can have a shot to show their strengths where Sonic fails. But good luck getting that anytime soon since Sonic Team can't find a middle ground with the criticism.

Why do you think any of this can only happen if Sonic constantly fails or is beaten on? Why can't everyone be written well within reason? After all, Tails and Amy may not have gone through as much shit as Sonic has, but this doesn't devalue the quality of their arcs and characterization in Adventure.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Why do you think any of this can only happen if Sonic constantly fails or is beaten on?

I don't? Don't know where I implied that to be the only case...

 

I just like to see heroes struggle on their path to victory and allow other characters to pick up where he fails. It's not like this is the only way to show another character's strength, but it a big way to give more variety to the stakes when you allow Sonic to temporarily pass the torch to someone in his place while he recovers and makes victory all the more sweeter when he picks himself up from it.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

 

...that, and I want him ripped up so that other characters can have a shot to show their strengths where Sonic fails. But good luck getting that anytime soon since Sonic Team can't find a middle ground with the criticism.

NO

NO

NO

 

><  this is the very thing I was afraid of. Fans want Sonic to be the other characters bitch. no

[Nepenthe]

But Sonic has struggled to varying degrees in past games, and other characters have also helped him to varying degrees, so it would be fair to say all the shit he has actually gone through and all of the assistance Sonic's friends have provided isn't actually enough for people.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

NO

NO

NO

 

><  this is the very thing I was afraid of. Fans want Sonic to be the other characters bitch. no

That is not even close to what I was saying to the point of being a strawman...

 

So basically, you're telling me that Sonic was Tails and Amy's bitch for being rescued from prison in SA2? Or for anyone like Tails to help him at all? Or that flaws are not allowed on a hero and that he should be better than everyone else, the very things that prevent Sonic from being a mary-sue in the first place? Nevermind the entire first paragraph above talking about Sonic's victory for recovery and winning in the end.

 

If I wanted Sonic to be another character's bitch, I'd want that character to take over the franchise and show how much Sonic sucks by comparison over being down for the count and having other character succeed and help him.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

i wasnt saying that ;p

[spinny]

It's not like we want him to be their "bitch". Hell, we want something like what Colors did in the ending with the Wisps helping Sonic get back to earth. Not even the main character in a video game is perfect. Link from Legend of Zelda gets his goddamn arm broken in Wind Waker's final boss, Kirby's foiled King Dedede's plan to restore the Fountain of Dreams thinking he was up to no good and in the Super Mario World remake, Mario and Luigi leave Peach unattended causing her to get kidnapped.

 

Characters make mistakes and like it or not, that leads to requirement for help. I could state a million times before where this has happened in the Sonic series including Sonic getting arrested by GUN, Sonic getting killed by Mephiles (it was a ridiculously bad plot point, but still) and many more. 

 

Is it that bad to want the other characters to show that they care for him?