Thoughts on modern Knuckles?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Saying something that's stupid is less stupid than another stupid thing, is kinda stupid

I know, but at least one stupid thing isn't pretending it isn't stupid by showing how stupid their stupid things were.

That wasn't the point of Heroes. The teamwork aspect applied to the three members of each team working together, not the four teams consolidating into an army.

Yes it was. Sonic continuously made it a point about showing off teamwork, but come around meeting characters going after the same bad guy, rather than fight together and reinforce the value of teamwork they went against it by fighting against the other teams.

And for it not to be about the four teams joining into an army, that's down right contradicting when they did just that during the end game to fight Metal Sonic.

[Splash the Otter]

Yes it was. Sonic continuously made it a point about showing off teamwork, but come around meeting characters going after the same bad guy, rather than fight together and reinforce the value of teamwork they went against it by fighting against the other teams.

None of the teams had any way of knowing they were all going after the same person, and the cutscenes before they fight each other didn't allow any of them to discover this.

 

And for it not to be about the four teams joining into an army, that's down right contradicting when they did just that during the end game to fight Metal Sonic.

And that was the one time they were in the same place and fully aware that they all had the same goal. Anyway, not merging into a single team would have been foolish in that situation.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

None of the teams had any way of knowing they were all going after the same person, and the cutscenes before they fight each other didn't allow any of them to discover this.

 

Actually, two of them did: Team Sonic and Team Dark, who upon seeing each other, tell each other that they're going after Eggman and then decide to fight each other over it. Team Chaotix and Rose had differing circumstances, in Rose case actually giving them a plausible reason to go after Sonic when they thought he kidnapped Froggy and Chocoala (how da fuq do you spell that name?), but you seriously cannot tell me Sonic and Dark didn't know they were both going after Eggman, and expect me to buy it.

[Splash the Otter]

Actually, two of them did: Team Sonic and Team Dark, who upon seeing each other, tell each other that they're going after Eggman and then decide to fight each other over it. Team Chaotix and Rose had differing circumstances, in Rose case actually giving them a plausible reason to go after Sonic when they thought he kidnapped Froggy and Chocoala (how da fuq do you spell that name?), but you seriously cannot tell me Sonic and Dark didn't know they were both going after Eggman, and expect me to buy it.

I actually forgot about that scene, but it still works because Team Dark clearly didn't want Sonic's help. Then Sonic and Shadow started a fight, and any chance of them working together went right out the window after that.

[SlickEvan]

D: Its a date to diiiie for! But I still feel that the battles was to add gameplay because there was only like 3 REAL bosses.

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[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I actually forgot about that scene, but it still works because Team Dark clearly didn't want Sonic's help. Then Sonic and Shadow started a fight, and any chance of them working together went right out the window after that.

Yes, and completely goes against the whole Teamwork theme in the already poorly told narrative.

[Kuzu]

To be fair, teamwork doesn't require everyone getting along and suddenly becoming best friends. And Sonic & Shadow still had unfinished business at that point.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

To be fair, teamwork doesn't require everyone getting along and suddenly becoming best friends. And Sonic & Shadow still had unfinished business at that point.

No, but fighting each other off drop of a hat while the going after the same guy should have more substance than that. Nevermind there was hardly anything between them to warrant beating each other up over it, making their fight even more pointless.

 

And what unfinished business did Sonic and Shadow have exactly? Because Shadow hardly remembered anything done in SA2 thanks to amnesia, and there was hardly any business other than surprise towards seeing each other again.

[SlickEvan]

But I'm still on the other side of the fence about this. Just because we're a team doesn't mean I like you or we're not gonna get in a scuffle every once in a while. At the end everyone got together which shows the whole teamwork part while in the meat of it, they didn't fully see eye to eye. That I think we can let pass. Of course it's dumb but I can see it making sense. Teamwork is the team working toghter. Doesn't mean we have to Teamwork the whole game. Also it is portrayed in the whole Team mechanic. Can we reach a middle ground and talk about some more Knuckles (that last part is half joke half serious by the way).

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I get the whole point, but the problem is that Heroes doesn't give any of that any weight, which ruins it's theme as a result. Whether I like you or or not, and whether we get in a scuffle doesn't mean we try to punch each others lights out as soon as we meet when we have the exact same interests, and for us to have the same goal, should we have a disagreement that needs to be made light of. Team Dark and Sonic essentially tell each other their out to beat Eggman, and from that point they just go at it. Like seriously? Nothing different beyond that to justify going at each other, just "we have the same goal, so let's fight"? That's like saying "I fully agree with you, so let's bicker about it."

 

Regardless, I'm not reaching a middle ground with Heroes story, because even disregarding the theme of Teamwork it's an all around poorly made narrative mess that could have done better: Metal Sonic betraying Eggman with no lead in or build up to explain it, Shadow being brought back without an explanation until later that could have saved us a number of narrative troubles in the next game, and on the subject of Knuckles, it being the start of his shoehorning and ditching of things associated to him, etc.

 

Only things salvagable is the stuff outside of that: the gameplay, returning the Chaotix, and making Big useful than before. But all of this is for another topic.

[SlickEvan]

Point taken. Well my defense for Heroes has been broken Good points though.

[Splash the Otter]

Having the four teams merge prior to the final boss would have ruined the game for me, because the thought of Sonic leading a small army (except when push comes to shove) makes me uncomfortable. So while I understand why people are disappointed that the teamwork aspect didn't go further than controlling three characters at once, I honestly think it was for the best.

[Kuzu]

No, but fighting each other off drop of a hat while the going after the same guy should have more substance than that. Nevermind there was hardly anything between them to warrant beating each other up over it, making their fight even more pointless.

And what unfinished business did Sonic and Shadow have exactly? Because Shadow hardly remembered anything done in SA2 thanks to amnesia, and there was hardly any business other than surprise towards seeing each other again.

I never said it was done particularly well brah, just that just because there is a theme of teamwork doesn't mean there wouldn't be a reason for each side to conflict with one another. It was done like shit I admit.

From the way the dialogue sound, it made it seem like Shadow partially remembered Sonic, and just wanted to fight.

Like I said, it's stupid

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[10e10]

I get the whole point, but the problem is that Heroes doesn't give any of that any weight, which ruins it's theme as a result. Whether I like you or or not, and whether we get in a scuffle doesn't mean we try to punch each others lights out as soon as we meet when we have the exact same interests, and for us to have the same goal, should we have a disagreement that needs to be made light of. Team Dark and Sonic essentially tell each other their out to beat Eggman, and from that point they just go at it. Like seriously? Nothing different beyond that to justify going at each other, just "we have the same goal, so let's fight"? That's like saying "I fully agree with you, so let's bicker about it."

 

Regardless, I'm not reaching a middle ground with Heroes story, because even disregarding the theme of Teamwork it's an all around poorly made narrative mess that could have done better: Metal Sonic betraying Eggman with no lead in or build up to explain it, Shadow being brought back without an explanation until later that could have saved us a number of narrative troubles in the next game, and on the subject of Knuckles, it being the start of his shoehorning and ditching of things associated to him, etc.

 

Only things salvagable is the stuff outside of that: the gameplay, returning the Chaotix, and making Big useful than before. But all of this is for another topic.

 

I have to agree. Even though I loved the gameplay, Sonic Heroes was the first Sonic game where the story wasn't very good, or clear.

Knuckles actually is very fun to play with, but they should have had a better explanation on why he is helping Sonic. Maybe the message saying "conquer the world" had a good enough influence, but it should have been done better.