Uganda - "Kill Gays Bill" Passes - President Expected to Sign

[no one]

Precisely what Condor has said here, or, curiosity and experimentation isn't exactly choosing a sexual orientation either.

I'm sure you're not being purposefully offensive (I at least hope so anyway) but your posts so far have only contained ignorance of the whole subject.

 

 

Precisely what Condor has said here, or, curiosity and experimentation isn't exactly choosing a sexual orientation either.

I'm sure you're not being purposefully offensive (I at least hope so anyway) but your posts so far have only contained ignorance of the whole subject.

Oh hi, Azzy ^^

 

But anyway yeah, while I myself am heterosexual, I think it's easy to assume that sexuality is in the genes. It just takes a bit of time for the person to develop it during puberty, I imagine.

[Tornado]

I can have sex with a woman right now

Calling bullshit on this.

[Big Panda]

Calling bullshit on this.

Metophorically speaking. If I was asked by a woman to have sex, I'd be capable of doing so. But the only way it could be done is if I was using my imagination.

I can screw as many chicks as I wish, but the fact that the actual source of my sexual arousion is coming from an image of a hot guy in my head still makes me gay.

[Willsy]

I'm bisexual myself I think. I have an attraction to both sexes, so that makes me bi I guess. I do sort of have a crush on a male celebrity (I guess you could call him that), but I won't say who. That's private info. But yeah, being gay, straight, or bi isn't a choice, it's what you feel naturally.

[Conando]

Maybe not all the time, but...

If one person who is heterosexual decides to do an act that is considered homosexual, then by then, it can be a choice.

That doesn't follow. Either they were only saying they were hetero out of fear and they are gay, or they are bisexual. Same deal as before, became that way in the womb.

[The Egg WAH]

I'm afraid you are woefully uneducated on sexuality and how things are for LGBT discovering themselves in a predominantly heterosexual society.

 

If a heterosexual performs a homosexual act out of curiosity and discovers they don't enjoy it, then that is not them choosing temporarily to be homosexual, it is simply experimentation.

 

If someone who THOUGHT they were heterosexual performs a homosexual act out of curiosity and discovers they do enjoy it, then that is not them choosing to become homosexual, bisexual, etc, it is them discovering that they might indeed be of a different orientation than what they thought.  For many it is a relief because they have felt out of place in a heterosexual society their whole life without ever knowing why.

 

Oh god so much this.

 

What so many people fail to understand is that much like gender sexuality is not simply black and white (hence why there are so many labels) and no one ever chooses their sexuality, why would someone who lives in a place like Uganda or the middle east choose to be something a lot of people hate, despise and even kill?

[Brad]

Maybe not all the time, but...

If one person who is heterosexual decides to do an act that is considered homosexual, then by then, it can be a choice.

 

Experimentation is far different to "choosing" your sexual orientation. Case in point: choose to be homosexual for the next year. I'll choose to be heterosexual for the next year. This IS how it works, yes? We can just pick and switch ourselves around at any point? This is what the definition of choice implies - the ability to have a free decision in something. Unfortunately, as I'll probably guess, you're not going to pick to be a homosexual for the next year for multiple reasons, and this is because dear friend, we cannot choose these things. These things happen and are sealed into us much like our genetics. 

[Tani Coyote]

What has given rise to tolerance in the West is better access to education and the ease in which new ideas can spread. These poor countries come off as backwards because they haven't had the opportunity to develop as we have, with education remaining a privilege and many people still living in rural locations where old customs prevail. It goes beyond homosexuality - whereas most Western countries have toned down their nationalism, it still is a daily part of life in the developing world, hence its stability issues.

The West was no different at one point. We used to believe in witchcraft and that the best way to cure a disease was to drain the "bad blood" from the body. We are only the way we are because (among other events) reformers started to open governments to the people and started brainstorming ideas such as legal protections. This was in part funded by exploitation of countries such as Uganda.

The best way the West can atone for its sins would be to extensively fund education and urbanisation in these nations. There is a strong correlation between wealth, education, peace, liberty, and democracy. It'd take a few generations but really, the only way Uganda, Iran, etc. will ever see things our way would be to give them a similar economic position as us. That in itself is a whole other issue given that there's nowhere near enough energy to go around for that to happen, but that's not the point of this thread.

Thank you, Colonization for taking the land and instilling Christianity into Africa.

To be fair, even without Christianity Uganda would probably be the same on this issue. Homosexuality is near-universally reviled by the various faiths. There are some anomalous cultures that went the other way and actively encourage it (in some cultures having sex with your elders of the same sex is a rite of passage into adulthood), but for the most part, gays have never really been tolerated. As a minority, they've always been given the short end of the stick; the religious movements just codified it.

[Shiny Gems]

Oh god so much this.

 

What so many people fail to understand is that much like gender sexuality is not simply black and white (hence why there are so many labels) and no one ever chooses their sexuality, why would someone who lives in a place like Uganda or the middle east choose to be something a lot of people hate, despise and even kill?

 

Having learned it all just now, I agree.

 

That said, with sexuality not being a choice at all, I think more people should understand that the ones who are homosexual can't really control or help that. Some people are just born to be homosexual, as that is just the way they are. With that said, people shouldn't really be that discriminatory over people who are something they can't really help to be.

[Tani Coyote]

While the jury is still out on whether homosexuality is genetic, based on upbringing, or some mixture thereof, it's blatantly clear that it is not a choice. It is most certainly NOT a conscious choice, if it could somehow be conditioned into one over many years... and sins are generally decisions you can make then and there. You can decide whether to kill someone or not, whether to steal, whether to rape, at a whim. If you could somehow change your orientation, it's obvious you can't do it on a whim (and to any heterosexual who says otherwise, I encourage them to try and decide that someone of the same sex is hot just for five minutes).

The moderates on the debate have conceded that homosexual emotions are not sinful; that's just idiotic and flies in the face of reasoning. What they instead contend is that homosexual sex is sinful, normally because it does not produce children. If one views sex as being for procreation, well, I can't fault them on that; at least they're not telling people who they can and can't love. Now, having a celibate romance, that generally doesn't work out, but that's another issue.

As was mentioned, I absolutely facepalm when someone says that there's proof you can choose to be homosexual based on straight people who have had homosexual sex before and enjoyed it. Does it not occur that they were homosexual to begin with but were just too afraid or otherwise repressed about it? I convinced myself I was straight for a while... then bisexual... then I just came to terms with the fact I like guys. I assume all those "changes" are likewise the same and primarily the result of pressure being applied or removed... that "therapy" stuff, in particular, is most likely simple conformity because of fear of social rejection. It happens on every other subject - a lot of people don't want to admit they're atheist around religious family members, or that they vote Democrat among Republicans, etc. If homosexuality is something that makes your relatives and friends lose their shit, well hey, it's not unreasonable you'll try and convince yourself you've been "cured."

"But he had sex with a woman instead of a man!" That doesn't mean jack. There have been several homosexual rulers throughout history, but they all were able to father heirs with women. There have been plenty of heterosexual men who will gladly have sexual relations with other men, but would not pursue a romance with them. Sex and romance are connected, but they are likewise entirely different kettles of fish. Overall you'll be amazed how easy it is to have sexual relations when under pressure or simply, well, just want such. Doubt the power of familial expectations? Look at arranged marriages; people for the longest time happily put aside their personal preferences in favor of social expectations... and it was people rebelling against those same expectations that led to our modern perception of sex and romance.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well this is one fucked up early Christmas present for the LGBT community...

[Dizcrybe]

...so am I dumb for believing we're all born asexual? Because that's the vibe I'm getting.

[Conando]

Pretty sure people are born as whatever they're going to be, at least current understanding is that sexuality seems to be related to neonatal development. In other words, hormone levels in utero have an effect on what sexuality a person is going to have. So yeah, not a decision.

[Big Panda]

...so am I dumb for believing we're all born asexual? Because that's the vibe I'm getting.

No your not dumb, 'cos I think your right.

Asexuality is the inability to feel any kind of sexual feelings. When you're a young child, of course you're not going to have sexual feelings, because you're a child. Sexuality doesn't come into play until puberty.

What ever sexuality you'll have in the future is most likely there, under the surface. But until it makes itself known at puberty, you won't feel sexual desires, which means your asexual.

[Conando]

Well yeah, I don't think anyone is going to know what they're attracted to until they're a little way into puberty, even more for plenty of people. It's formed before puberty, though.

[Big Panda]

Well yeah, I don't think anyone is going to know what they're attracted to until they're a little way into puberty, even more for plenty of people. It's formed before puberty, though.

Oh I'm not denying that it's formed before puberty. But at the same time it's not like you have sexual feelings from the moment you exit the birth canal...

[Conando]

Nope, you're right on that one. Well, at least I don't remember having any until 11 (started kind of early, or so I'm told)!

[SchemingMinor]

I don't know if anyone has touched upon this in this topic before, but the reason why we are in this whole mess in the first place is because of backwards fundamentalist pastors and missionaries. Those people ( though I have a strong urge to refuse to label them as anything human) realized that we (the U.S.A.) saw through their bullshit agenda, and they knew that they were helming a sinking ship. So in order to try to do the damage that they wanted to enforce over here under the disguise and mockery of the Judeo-Christian god, those people had to find a less educated, more gullible audience and they found it in the third-world countries. By using the same tactics and fever pitch furor that native religions use to convince people, they were able to slide the leash over the sheep's neck and lead it to the slaughterhouse. They were able to stupidly convince the natives of these countries under the guise of religion and as a mouthpiece for a Abrahamic deity that a group of people were evil.

 

It sounds just like every tactic used to justify tribal wars over in Africa. They knew how to play these people like a harp from hell.

 

So anyone saying that they had a problem with homosexuality before in Africa is misinformed. Many Shamanic and tribal religions accepted or didn't even care about same-sex relations. A majority of the religions in the world DO NOT shun homosexuality.

 

Let me repeat myself to make my message clear: A MAJORITY OF THE WORLDS RELIGIONS DO NOT SHUN HOMOSEXUALITY.

 

The shunning of homosexuality usually stems from colonial law introduced to native lands (which ironically India still holds as justifiable law despite wanting a system free from English influence and colonization) and the introduction of fourteenth century Christianity doctrine (before the 14th century Christianity didn't really care about or add homosexuality to a list of sins.)

 

http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Social-Tolerance-Homosexuality-Fourteenth/dp/0226067114

 

Native African religions varied from tribe to tribe, but a majority of them viewed homosexual behavior as helpful - even medicinal.

 

So homophobia is a recent development in a majority of the world's civilizations caused by the spread of Abrahamic 14th century doctrine.

[Tani Coyote]

Most cultures did not vehemently shun homosexuality as we see it today, but it wasn't necessarily equal either. In Greece and Rome, homosexuality was tolerated, but it was sometimes seen as shameful to be the bottom in the relationship, for example. Mostly because they were sexist jerks who associated that with being effeminate.

I think the demonisation of homosexuality in the modern decades primarily results from prior persecutions more or less vanishing. It's not kosher to discriminate on race anymore, or income, or religion, or sex, so romance is now on the chopping block for those seeking a scapegoat. Reformers have worked to alleviate the suffering of the aforementioned groups, and now this is their next campaign - and naturally the reactionaries come out against it.

 

Asexuality is the inability to feel any kind of sexual feelings. When you're a young child, of course you're not going to have sexual feelings, because you're a child. Sexuality doesn't come into play until puberty.

What ever sexuality you'll have in the future is most likely there, under the surface. But until it makes itself known at puberty, you won't feel sexual desires, which means your asexual.

I suppose it really depends on how you interpret the term "sexual." Children do have sexual feelings, but they're very underdeveloped and primitive. You can, as you say, get a hint as to what you'll like early on, but isn't really apparent until you reach puberty.

What I always found strange was how few children display homosexuality. I do think it might be our culture, however - how many shows have two boys kissing? I guess it's not until one reaches puberty that it clicks that "holy crap, some people actually like the same sex rather than opposite. All those episodes I watched as a kid about cooties and puppy love with the popular girl were wrong!"

[Blitz 'n Burst]

I was kind of "meh" about it until this

Ah, But it is the RIGHT kind of child rape. It is men raping girls and that is natural.

What in the actual fuck

[Tani Coyote]

A person can support torturing and killing human beings in the name of a country's interests, but then flip out when a chicken is in a coop.

A person can believe slavery is wrong, then turn around and say blacks don't deserve the right to vote.

We send billions of dollars overseas in aid every year when there are starving and homeless children in our own cities.

I am honestly not surprised that some cultures will say child rape is okay but loving someone of the same sex is cause to shut down everything. Humanity kind of sucks with getting its priorities straight.

While I'm here I'm going to fully admit to being a cultural imperialist. Raping kids is wrong, period, and I'm all for stamping out traditions that say otherwise.

[Blitz 'n Burst]

I was going through that statement in my head trying to at least somewhat justify it, but no
 

He's literally saying that homosexuality is worse than pedophilia

 

There are no words

[Tani Coyote]

I was going through that statement in my head trying to at least somewhat justify it, but no

 

He's literally saying that homosexuality is worse than pedophilia

 

There are no words

When we have people saying legal homosexuality leads to legal bestiality and legal pedophilia despite the fact the former involves consent whereas the latter two most certainly do not...

Yeah, logic isn't the strong point of a lot of anti-gay rights folk.

[Willsy]

I bet that even if only LGBT people saved the world from giant killer robots, there would still be people who would hate us. Those people just can't accept though that everyone is different, and everyone being the same would be monotonous. Those people also need to realise that basing their entire life around a moral they didn't understand from the bible is extremely stupid. Even God would be facepalming. But we will always get idiots as long as there are smart people. I guess they're there to make the smart people look smarter. Good strategic planning.