Sonic Lost World VS Sonic Generations.

[Carbo]

Even SA1 was awesome at this. If that game could do it then Sonic Team's current output should as well.

We must have been playing different games then, cause half of the levels in that game were typical highway-in-the-sky type levels. Unless they had specific gimmicks built around them they were all very straightforward. The only exceptions to that rule was Emerald Coast and Twinkle Park. I'm not saying that to rip on the game though, because SA1 is still my favorite 3D Sonic game.

Aesthetically speaking the setup generally comes as a consequence from making most of the stages tubular in design. The aforementioned stages that Jez mentioned, including Lava Mountain 3, are much better at creating the sense of an environment, but they're still largely restricted by the design. Silent Forest feels like the only world where the tube design actually manages to look like it's fitting with the environment as the entire level is surrounded by all sorts of fauna and vegetation.

Ideally the game design and environmental structure should go hand in hand, and Sonic Lost World does a generally alright job in making due with the general complexity that the tube design provides. Frozen Factory 1 stands out as an example of when there are so many layers to the machinery and construct that it sort of manages to look good all the same and where it looks good in it's own way. Not all levels do this though and Sky Road comes across as a guilty offender of failing that, and I do hope to see more bigger environments to accommodate the gameplay, even if it's still largely going to account to squares and ramps since it's what games such as even Mirror's Edge had to utilize on a basic level.

I'd like to imagine the artistic simplification comes as a consequence of having to apply the game design to it's experimental grounds now that it's the first game with the new game play, and it'll most likely evolve in the future, but since the game already has a fantastic enough presentation it can really stand on it's own in a way. Design-wise it does what it hopes to achieve mostly well for the first half of the game and usually that's what ought to be important in putting as a priority - it's the main reason the games maintain replayability, as I can even give some plus points to the boost trilogy in those aspects.

[Scar]

It can go both ways in a sense, Generations rendering areas in the background that overall looked much bigger and free than the actual playable terrain felt like a pretty big cocktease as I was far less interested in what I was given to play with. It also ended up being a tad disorientating at times finding out where you aren't allowed to traverse. On top of that, Generations' Modern game play still mixes 2D sections into the game play rather than building more 3D worlds, and that really ends up hampering the potential for how the levels can be evolved.

Doesn't matter what you do, some part of the stage will inevitably be inaccessible to the player. There is no way to avoid that in a Sonic game. But that doesn't mean you should completely strip away all of the background stuff. Yeah you can't access it but do you need to? I like knowing that beyond the accessibly portion of the stage, there is actually stuff, if you know what I mean. You may not get to run free in that area, but at least you know that the level is a part of a bigger location, and isn't just a level.

 

Unless you're making a Bethesda-sized RPG it is generally hard to structure a game to feel vast through game play while still retaining defined limits because you have to find a balance between design, graphical direction and game play, and all of that has to meet the technical limitations. Banjo-Kazooie comes to mind as a game that actually struck a balance in comparison to say, Super Mario 64.

This is true. Sonic Team need to create somewhat larger levels. They don't need to be Skyrim-level gigantic overworlds, but they need to be large enough to allow Sonic's now expanded moveset, to feel versatile enough to let the player do what they want within the scope of the level. Makes it feel like Sonic's tearing through a place as he wishes, rather than being directed through a small route a la Generations/Unleashed etc. or the small route being the only thing that's actually there in Lost World.

I will grant you that some levels in LW handled it better than others, but its the weaker stages that often bring the rest of the game's aesthetics down a notch. Sky Road is offensively bad IMO.

 

Incidentally, 64's sequel, Super Mario Sunshine, ended up having much more defined worlds but faltered with a lot of design principles, in turn being considered the worst 3D Mario. On the other hand, the special stages of that game which were purely built around design and challenge served as the inspiration for Galaxy - a game which is seen as Mario's absolute pinnacle in terms of 3D.

Eh, well Mario has rarely ever considered location to be a huge factor, aside from providing a distant background to set the scene. I feel that Sonic games have placed greater emphasis on a sense of place. Particularly in S3K, where the game tries really hard to convey the idea that every stage is connected. Even within an individual stage, like Lava Reef act 1 and 2, you get the sense that you're moving around through magma chamber and inching closer and closer to the fallen Death Egg. Best example being Launch Base, where the Death Egg starts off on a construction site in the background and ends up in the foreground by the end of act 2.

Edit:

Ugh, this reply is SOOO late...

Edited October 21, 2013 by Scar

[azoo]

If they could just build these massive, organic environments like Sonic Unleashed/Gens where there is so much background stuff, as well as a sense of progression and world-building; but give you the freedom to access more of it and take your own pace like Lost World, then we may be getting somewhere.

 

I'm not asking for them to make everywhere a new route (theres always your barriers), but there's got to be much more than a small corridor of level design to work with, as much of Lost World proves. I just hope they don't associate the planetoid design as the only way they can pull that off, and will actually try applying it to more traditional Sonic level design.

 

And although the parkour mechanics may require some flatter walls in places, I think they should also attempt to balance that out with slopes, loops and ramps in stages, since I feel the lack of that (minus it being sprinkled here and there) is what really made SLW's level design seem so different from the norm. Sonic is fast and Sonic is cool, but whats so exciting about Sonic running on flat ground all the time? There's no spectacle, no speed to gain or lose, no potential obstacle when the stage gets too steep, to say. I'm not saying SLW goes completely without them though, its just way too far and few inbetween.

 

God this has nothing to do with comparing Gens and Lost World directly, I'm so out of.. *shades* the loop. BU

Edited October 21, 2013 by Aspoopkara

[JezMM]

I think 2D Segments can still have a place in a wide open level design, even if I'd rather they just do away with them in the 3D games.  The trick is to have whole 2D sections be routes of their own.  Seaside Hill is often praised as the most open 3D Sonic level they've made, but all the routes still reconvined at the end for the sake of a 2D segment.  If they just make it so any 2D segment you are funneled into is one of MANY that you can reach, we might be onto something.

 

Though again it raises the question of "why waste time designing three or four awesome 2D sections if most players will only see one or two unless they love the game enough to play again enough times to discover other paths".

 

 

 

But yeah I have no doubt the envioronments might get more complex in a follow-up to Lost World.  I was also going to cite Lava Mountain as a stage with more sense of place.  But it still wasn't quite like Unleashed.  When I think about it... I think it's the loading breaks that kind of ruin it for me.  You're forever going into black doorways or off-camera and having the screen fade to black before Sonic is dumped into the next area, standing totally still, chopping up the level into little pieces, rather than getting anything resembling the deliciously transitionless 25 minute descent into Eggmanland's depths.

Edited October 21, 2013 by JezMM

[ChikaBoing]

I thought Adabat day nailed it really well. Felt like a 3&K stage.

[TheUltimateZ-MAN]

I think 2D Segments can still have a place in a wide open level design, even if I'd rather they just do away with them in the 3D games.  The trick is to have whole 2D sections be routes of their own.  Seaside Hill is often praised as the most open 3D Sonic level they've made, but all the routes still reconvined at the end for the sake of a 2D segment.  If they just make it so any 2D segment you are funneled into is one of MANY that you can reach, we might be onto something.

 

Though again it raises the question of "why waste time designing three or four awesome 2D sections if most players will only see one or two unless they love the game enough to play again enough times to discover other paths".

 

 

 

But yeah I have no doubt the envioronments might get more complex in a follow-up to Lost World.  I was also going to cite Lava Mountain as a stage with more sense of place.  But it still wasn't quite like Unleashed.  When I think about it... I think it's the loading breaks that kind of ruin it for me.  You're forever going into black doorways or off-camera and having the screen fade to black before Sonic is dumped into the next area, standing totally still, chopping up the level into little pieces, rather than getting anything resembling the deliciously transitionless 25 minute descent into Eggmanland's depths.

I feel like DesSert Ruins Zone 3 should be the ideal style for 2D sections. I mean Sky Road Zone 2 could've been as crazy an creative as DesSert Ruins Zone 3, but that was a missed opportunity. I feel like 2D sections in a Sonic game need a hell lot more dynamic angles.

[Narukami07]

I still kinda think that the boost style gameplay gave people the wrong impression of Sonic emphasizing more on speed than platforming.

[DarkRula]

I don't live by that. I avoid using the boost unless I need to.

[Sami]

I still kinda think that the boost style gameplay gave people the wrong impression of Sonic emphasizing more on speed than platforming.

 

Look at the marketing - speed has always been emphasized over platforming, even since the beginning.

[Narukami07]

But you actually had to pull off and gain momentum of speed in the original Sonic games compared to the boost style (i'm not saying boosting is bad btw!).

[SenEDDtor Missile]

But you actually had to pull off and gain momentum of speed in the original Sonic games compared to the boost style (i'm not saying boosting is bad btw!).

there are people who think Sonic 4 is somehow a worthy sequel despite having zero momentum. I think that clearly shows that most people don't notice any of the nuances fan do.

[Sami]

But you actually had to pull off and gain momentum of speed in the original Sonic games compared to the boost style (i'm not saying boosting is bad btw!).

 

That's irrelevant though. The marketing and entire message surrounding the games is that they're fast fast super wowwy blast processing. Speed has always been emphasized.

[Narukami07]

That's irrelevant though. The marketing and entire message surrounding the games is that they're fast fast super wowwy blast processing. Speed has always been emphasized.

I don't think you understood what i meant.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Narukami07

[Sami]

I don't think you understood what i meant.

 

No, I understand what you're saying. That Sonic's more about the platforming than the speed, and that the recent games have given people the wrong impression.

 

I'm just disagreeing. It's not the recent games that did this, it's every single piece of Sonic media before it.

[Narukami07]

I'm just disagreeing. It's not the recent games that did this, it's every single piece of Sonic media before it.

 

Hmm.....i don't see the same reflection with this. Not every single piece of Sonic media (are you talking about the games themselves or different formats of Sonic-related material?) prioritized speed over platforming despite that "speed" being one of its key appeal.

 

Wait! I know, maybe you could try playing Sonic 1 and tell me if that the game itself was meant to revolve around speed instead of platforming, rather than both syncing correctly. 

Edited October 22, 2013 by Narukami07

[azoo]

The advertisements and marketing blatantly sold it as all about "fastfastfast", but when you played the game there was more depth to it than that (think EarthBound's gross-out humor marketing). It wasn't until Unleashed when Sega started building the entire game on the concept.

[Autosaver]

One thing to note about 'fastfastfast', the slowest speed Sonic has gone is still much faster than competition.

[Narukami07]

The advertisements and marketing blatantly sold it as all about "fastfastfast", but when you played the game there was more depth to it than that (think EarthBound's gross-out humor marketing). It wasn't until Unleashed when Sega started building the entire game on the concept.

 

THANK YOU. This is exactly what i was trying to get at.

[BonkersTheAutomaton]

Since I have completed the 3DS version of Lost World I think it is okay for me to compare it to generations.  Gameplay wise it is the same as the Wii U version just with less tighter controls (which honestly make it better then the Wii U version IMO).  Personally, comparing it to Generations.  I can't help but feel like this was a step backwards in quality.  the controls are okay but compared to generations which had a more momentum based design they aren't that great.  I don't mind the level design that much (though I will quit with the bottomless pits, that got annoying really quickly) besides that fact the levels themselves really overstay their welcome.  Like REALLY overstay,  we are talking 10 - 20 minutes long levels.  In all honesty I feel as do if their quit with they get rid of the 3 speeds mechanic.  Have the second speed be the natural speed set and get rid of the boost and replace it with the spindash then this could have been just as good as generations.  Of course how can I not talk about the parkour system.  I LOVE IT SO MUCH.  it is amazing.  the parkour system alone is the reason why I don't need the boost.  It is just amazing.

 

Now if I was to choose between the 2 I would still pick Generations thanks to the better level design and not having me go into my inner assassin's creed (has anyone else made that similarity yet?).  unfortunately I would much rather see the unleashed formally back then lost worlds one.  But I would love to see the 2 merged together since I think that has great potential.

[Sami]

The advertisements and marketing blatantly sold it as all about "fastfastfast", but when you played the game there was more depth to it than that (think EarthBound's gross-out humor marketing). It wasn't until Unleashed when Sega started building the entire game on the concept.

 

Oh, this is true, I'm not denying it. 

 

The point I thought Narukami was trying to make, though, was that the boost games gave a wrongful impression to casual consumers that Sonic games are all about "fastfastfast". While they did prioritize it in the gameplay more than the games of the past, it's not the fault of those games that people think this. People have always thought of Sonic as "gottagofast". That was his appeal. 

 

Sonic 3 & Knuckles is an awesome game with tons of depth, but ask a kid in the 90's what he thought, and I think he'd be more inclined to say "WOWEE SONIC'S SO FAST" rather than "hmm yes the physics based platforming really inspires a great degree of depth in the level design".

[Kuzu]

Oh, this is true, I'm not denying it. 

 

The point I thought Narukami was trying to make, though, was that the boost games gave a wrongful impression to casual consumers that Sonic games are all about "fastfastfast". While they did prioritize it in the gameplay more than the games of the past, it's not the fault of those games that people think this. People have always thought of Sonic as "gottagofast". That was his appeal. 

 

Sonic 3 & Knuckles is an awesome game with tons of depth, but ask a kid in the 90's what he thought, and I think he'd be more inclined to say "WOWEE SONIC'S SO FAST" rather than "hmm yes the physics based platforming really inspires a great degree of depth in the level design".

 

No one is denying Sonic wasn't blatantly marketed "speedspeedspeed", but it becomes something of a problem when Sega actually make the gameplay simply about that, which is what I think they're getting at. Or when people complain that the games aren't "fast enough" as if they expect to do nothing but running in Sonic games.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Dark Yakuzu

[Jolt_TH]

I have yet to play my copy of Lost World , but I have played Generations, I think what Sonic Team really need to do is keep the levels about the same length, maybe a tad shorter? I'm not sure of the length of lost Worlds levels, irrespective they need to add more width, not loads, just make the overall shape of the level a fatter rectangle than a road, have the level bordered by natural walls, a cliff? A wall TOO HIGH to parkour over, rivers, oceans, strong winds that can't be overcome, things like that, I think people would be happier if they had more of the background to explore, not all of it obviously, that's ridiculous, but more width to explore

[Autosaver]

"Sonic's speed has always been more of a marketing gimmick. It's never been a lead foundation on the games design. Unleashed and other games perhaps fell for their own blast-processing catch phrase, but throughout most games Sonic has only ever given the illusion of being the fastest thing alive. Sonic games have never truly been about speed at all. It's my no means slow, but the speed is just right to be able to base the game on platforming and not just visual spectacle."

 

This quote was found in a Sonic Lost World review. I feel it fits perfectly here.

[JezMM]

I'm not a fan of that quote really.  Who cares whether "speed is not what sonic is about", if they make a game that is fun due to speed that isn't to be disrespected.

 

And besides, Sonic kind of was always designed around speed.  It's exactly what the original designers were going for.  For example, even the iconic look of the Green Hill Zone was designed completely around speed, which is why we have the staple checkerboard environment design since it visually shows you exactly how fast you're going.  They just kinda lost track of how to fit in platforming with it which is why we got Marble and Labyrinth.

 

To be honest, the first thing I thought when I played Unleashed was "holy shit, I get to play Sonic being as fast as he is in the cut-scenes".  Flawed or not they finally pulled off gameplay where Sonic lived up to his name, and I'm of the camp that loved it.

[Kuzu]

You're speaking as if Sonic has never been a fast character tho. Yes, I like the fact that Unleashed gave you an amazing sense of speed and thrill, but once that wears off there really isn't much depth to the gameplay beyond speed running. And since I'm not a speed runner, I'm left without any reason to replay the game.