Chaos Emeralds

[Scar]

It's more of an inconstancy honestly; after Sonic Adventure, the series shifted towards a slightly more realistic tone so everything pre-Adventure was more or less retconned which is why it seems so jarring. In short, the world of Sonic has a very inconsistent stucture when it comes to the world, it's either realistic or cartoony, it never really decides on one.

 Unleashed and beyond managed to combine realistic with cartoony fairly well.

Generations even managed to make the hellish distopia that Crisis City was, seem like a setting suitable for Sonic.

 

 I mean what makes him(and Shadow) special enough to control this supposed Ultimate Power.

Haha, yeah they need to bring this back. After 06, it seemed that anybody could use their power innately (Eggman harnessing their power with machines is slightly different....and he still can't use Chaos Control)

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Realistic in terms of population, Station Square and the like, the levels are just something fucking bizzare, But then again Adventure tried to bridge the gap between Sonic's fictional gyroscopic landscapes with a world more realistic whilst trying to keep the staples that made the Sonic series memorable, also adding Human populace, you can't expect me to believe that the world Sonic inhabits in SA/SA2 and so on is the very same world that has places like Green Hill Zone, Mystic Caves, Chemical Plant, Collision Chaos, Wacky Work Bench, Rail Canyon... I can go on for hours, It's simply not possible from a realistic viewpoint and in before "Videogame Logic."

The first mistake you're making is applying realistic logic to the Sonic series, and it's not even a matter of video game logic.

 

You are failing to keep in mind that this is a work of FICTION, in other words, not everything is going to make sense in a way that we're suppose to compare to our world and they will take whatever creative liberties they see fit to do. They have a cartoon hedgehog in a world of humans, and you're suppose to roll with it. This isn't the first series to do this, with shows like Warner Brothers Looney Toons and Animaniacs, or Tex Avery cartoons like Droopy being shining examples. We could make a whole list. Shows like Bonkers and Quack Pack even do this by placing cartoon characters like Bonkers or Donald and Daisy Duck next to human characters and with other cartoon characters either being equal in number or lacking in comparison to humans.

 

And as Dio already said, but I feel a need to reiterate, Sonic Adventure 1 and S3&K share a level together: Ice Cap. Hell, they share Angel Island together, firmly establishing that the cast has been on Earth. Nowhere during, before, or even inbetween the games has so much as hinted that they came from somewhere else, and the fact that various ancient societies up to Prof. Gerald at the ARK throughout the world are aware of the Chaos Emeralds and sought to make use of them only further establish that connection of the cast being on Earth.

Edited January 13, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Lady Soniko]

I am not "Failing" to keep in mind this is all fiction fyi, this is a Sonic discussion forum, so I'll discuss anything within its verse and quite frankly everything post Adventure (with the exceptions of ice cap and Angel Island) wouldn't fit in with the world after Adventure period. As for the Emeralds role within the games has nothing to do with the Human's wishing to use them, The first Emerald they had in a Museum? Tail's won one as a reward for saving Station Square from Eggman's missile etc, I can buy that Gerald needed the sheer power from the Emeralds to power something like the Eclipse cannon, just feels stupid that for items that are supposed to be so rare and scarce, the humans seem to have easy access to them and can create machinery that can be powered by them, it kind of makes the entire point of Emeralds being mystical pointless if any person can use their power.

 

The Unleashed temples also got me thinking, if they exist for the sole purpose of restoring the Emerald's powers... Does this mean the Emerald's have lost their power before and perhaps the Shrines are connected to the Master Emerald altar in some way? Perhaps even the same people who made the altar made the shrines.

Edited January 13, 2013 by Black☆Rock Shooter

[SenEDDtor Missile]

I know this doesn't really have anything to do with the OP, but I personally think the Chaos Emeralds needs a definite set of rules, so that you can't pull a Deus Ex Machina with them for every single situation.

 

Here is my own personal list:

1. How much power a Chaos Emerald gives to it's user is dependent on the strength of the person's will and/or mind. If a Chaos Emerald is used by a non sentient being, it is no different from a normal energy source.
2. Chaos Emeralds cannot create new powers, only enhance existing powers or awaken dormant powers.
3. After use, a Chaos Emerald will enter a dormant state, and cannot be reused until it regains it's power. How long it remains in a dormant state is dependent on how much power was used.

Anyone else wanna add?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I am not "Failing" to keep in mind this is all fiction fyi, this is a Sonic discussion forum, so I'll discuss anything within its verse and quite frankly everything post Adventure (with the exceptions of ice cap and Angel Island) wouldn't fit in with the world after Adventure period.

When you try to apply a realistic viewpoint where there obviously isn't any, you certainly aren't keeping in mind that it's a work of fiction. No one in this topic but you sees any problem with having settings from the Adventure games fit next to the settings after it, and it is an understatement to call that overthinking things like that.

[Kuzu]

 Unleashed and beyond managed to combine realistic with cartoony fairly well.

Generations even managed to make the hellish distopia that Crisis City was, seem like a setting suitable for Sonic.

 

True, but they aren't doing anything with it since the narrative took a hit.

 

 

Haha, yeah they need to bring this back. After 06, it seemed that anybody could use their power innately (Eggman harnessing their power with machines is slightly different....and he still can't use Chaos Control)

 

 

Like yeah, I know Sonic can use them because he's the main character and all, but there's never been an in story reason beyond "Because he can" and it just irked me.

[123654]

Just chiming in to say that assuming the more "realistic" games take place on a different planet just because of aesthetic differences like the absence of checkered soil is like saying the humans that appear in Unleashed must be different from the ones shown in the other games because they look like Pixar characters. And also that even Shadow the Hedgehog has really bizarre levels despite its attempts to be gritty.

 

As for the Chaos Emeralds, I liked them better when they weren't treated as token solutions to any given problem. Before, they were more like magical batteries than anything else, in addition to having mystical significance. Now they just do whatever the plot needs, be it teleportation, time travel, hopping dimensions or granting wishes. It all just feels really cheap now and their connection to the echidnas is rarely even mentioned anymore.

[Diz]

I know I am bringing up this game a lot, but I have not played that many Sonic games to make many references. In Sonic 3 & Knuckles, not only Sonic, but also Knuckles could benefit from having collected all of the Chaos Emeralds. Also, it is a long time since I tried Sonic Adventure DX, but does not Tails state that a Chaos Emerald is what powers his airplane? One could argue that even he can harness the Chaos Emeralds, though in a different way.

 

Perhaps the Chaos Emeralds can boost a character's strongest side. Or perhaps you just need to practise or be good at trying to adapt to their power? Though this might be going a little deep.

[Diogenes]

Like yeah, I know Sonic can use them because he's the main character and all, but there's never been an in story reason beyond "Because he can" and it just irked me.

The way I see it, it all ties back to "the emeralds change thoughts into power". Sonic's willpower is far greater than the average person. The emeralds react to the strength and purity of his will, and create enormous power from it. Having the will of a hero is what gives him the strength to be a hero.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I suppose that's an even greater reason why he remained himself despite having Dark Gaia's influence in him.

 

One thing that I don't see to often is the Emeralds being used malevolently. After SA2, the villains just use them once and then discard them rather than continue using them, only to get bit in the ass for doing so. Chaos did this as well, but that was because he had already had the power from them and merely thought he used them up.

 

But Mephilies? Teleports Sonic to his location, kills him, then scatters them across time and space.

Black Doom? Just teleports the Black Comet to Earth. He even fucking LEAVES them there for Shadow to use against him.

 

And Eggman at the very least turned that power against Sonic in Unleashed when he drained the emeralds completely to awaken Dark Gaia.

 

So I'd love to see the Emeralds be even more part of a power grab than they already are. It would be even more suspenseful if the villain actually acquired them and kept them instead of doing away with them, forcing the protagonists to use cleverness and be resourceful in order to win against someone who's all-powerful instead of using them as their "I win" tool that they have in the past.

[Spin Attaxx]

Super Emeralds do not seem to be used more these days though. Have they only been in that game?

 

Yes.

 

And considering when Sonic 3&K was originally one game there were meant to be just the 7 Chaos Emeralds, my guess is that the Super Emeralds were a way to handle the fact that there were an extra 7 Special Stages and an extra set of emeralds. Iizuka's statement that Super Tails was a "one time thing" as well as the lack of references or appearances of the Super Emeralds likely means that they never canonically existed.

Edited January 13, 2013 by Spin Attaxx

[iDEATH]

The things that annoy me about the emeralds are, if sonic finds all 7 at the end of every game, why has he lost them by the time his next adventure rolls around, why can't he keep a hold of them?

STC fixed this by saying that the emeralds have too much power to be kept together, when they all get together their power kind of, explodes and sends them flying away from each other.

This is obviously the comic continuity though and either isn't the case in the games or at least has never been confirmed.

 

Also, if there's only 7 emeralds in the world, shouldn't they be super rare?

Instead characters just seem to trip over them when they walk down the street these days. Shadow is the worst example of this where you get two chaos emeralds in the first stage by.....walking down a road? Awesome.

 

If the emeralds power angel island...how do they gather them in other games?

 

what happened to the hyper emeralds?

 

The continuity in the series has been fucked from the start but it's almost like they go out of their way to make the chaos emeralds make no sense....

[Carbo]

I think this whole subject of "consistent continuity" is something that'd be considered a completely moot point when drawing parallels between what existed during the Genesis era and what existed starting the Modern era because if you want to bring Chaos Emeralds into the subject of discussion, there has to be some way for the games to explain what happened to the Special Zones which was where the Chaos Emeralds were supposed to reside. Now they're just scattered wherever.

It's possible to make a case that worlds like Green Hill Zone and Chemical Plant would exist in a realistically inclined Sonic world in the modern era but it's clear that it was something Sonic Team never cared about, and that for them it's mostly a case of taking Sonic and implementing him in a setting the developers find interesting. Sonic Unleashed arguably complicated those things with the entire "world" approach where every aspect was considered a region and Sonic Generations only really hammered home the fact that continuity is not really that big of a deal beyond simple nods.

The continuity and canon in general is rather loose and you'll lose a deal of explanations in order to have liberty with others. The same goes with characters such as Blaze and Silver. It almost reminds me of Zelda but with far less time travel malarkey.

I remember first obtaining Super Emeralds in S3&K and thinking how cool it was and if they'd be explored more in future games, but there's no denying that Sonic Adventure and onward really was one massive shift of atmosphere, world and tone, and it's just one of those things that'd be pointless to explain in this particular direction of the franchise.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Honestly, I'd like a more tighter continuity which still allows more creative freedom to develop the unknowns of the Sonicverse. Every game there's always something different in terms of setting, and this isn't a bad thing; we haven't really explored every nook and cranny of Sonic's world, so when we see a futuristic metropolis like Grand Metropolis or the stages in Sonic Riders next to regular places like Station Square or even villages like Mazuri, we merely just shrug and say "so not every place is the same."

 

Same can be said for the emeralds. We've seen them power superforms, power world ending laser canons, power gods of destruction, and then be used to alter time and space, open dimensions, seal demons and gods, and resurrect people from death. I'd like to think that some restrictions allow for some more creativity as we use those restrictions to think outside the box to where it takes advantage of a loophole.

 

Like saying that you need to make contact with an item (it didn't say physical contact, so you can make eye contact instead), you can say the Emeralds shouldn't be allowed to bring back someone from the dead while still being allowed to alter time and space; although it can't bring someone straight out of the afterlife and back to the real world, it didn't say you can't rewind time back before the person died so you can save their life.

 

Eh, maybe I'm thinking too above some people....

[Jack / Joker]

For me my only flaw with the Chaos Emeralds is what they can't do.

 

On the other hand, Tails obviously can't fully harness their power as proven in Sonic 2, 3&K and 4: Episode II, and that has something to do with his age and lack of experience if I recall correctly. Characters like Amy and Rouge have never been given a chance to use them, and something about Blaze (probably her otherworldly nature) only allows her to use the Sol Emeralds from her dimension. Knuckles and Shadow have an important deep connection to the Emeralds, so they can use the Emeralds' full power as seen in Sonic 3&K and Sonic Adventure 2/Shadow the Hedgehog. Sonic has some kind of "Chosen One" shit going on, which the Hidden Palace prophecy thing showed off, so that's probably why he can use them so much. Silver... uh... he can use them because Sonic '06 I guess. So apparently you need some kind of special connection to the Emeralds to use them, I guess? Not to mention Unleashed and Adventure show that the Emeralds are easy to drain. So they, like Sonic, have their weaknesses, they're just rarely expanded upon. Neat.

[Potada]

I know a lot of the earlier games had the "find the emeralds on your own time" with the Special Stages, but I always thought the Game Gear games(more specifically, 1 and 2) took an interesting approach in finding the emeralds directly in the stage. It was a bit restrictive with having to find them every time or else "Oh no, bad ending," though.

[Jolt_TH]

Well in terms of sonic's world I think it's perfectly fine and believable that it's all the same world. Sonic 1 was set on south island, Sonic 2 was set on Christmas island (I believe anyway) and sonic 3 was set on Angel Island. In term of classic sonic that's 3 games, 3 islands, we don't know how big said islands are so it's possible that they are islands like Hawaii ect?

When we get to adventure that is just one continent, heck only one city! adventure 2 spans slightly more but could again be one country and unleashed is when things start getting global, so if you apply a bit of thought its easy to see how the sonic games fit geographically together! And CD, well that takes place on a whole new planet (Little Planet, albeit connected with a giant huge chain!)

As for the chaos emeralds well. I think maybe some should be collected as you go through, but maybe have some in a special stage. Although the dynamics of that would be wierd, so I doubt that would work!

As to how they are used, I'm fine with them being used by eggman and such e.g. Because that is via a machine that is harnessing the power not using them durectly. Knuckles has some link to the emeralds and he appears to be able to contol them to an extent (given he is the guardian of the MASTER EMERALD) although main thing you see him do is nullify them "the servers are the seven chaos, chaos is power, power is enriched by the heart, the controller is the one that unifies the chaos..."

Shadow is a chaos creature as I believe he was created using the power of at least one emerald I'm not too sure on this) so it's understandable he could use them, as well as his chaos powers (some of them not requiring an actual chaos emerald) as when you fight him at the end of sonic's story in SA2 he uses chaos spear and chaos control without a chaos emerald as they are all in the eclipse cannon, so it wouldn't surprise me if shadow had some sort of chaos energy reserve. Also because he always seems

to find at least one (or have one on him) wouldnt surprise me if he could sense their presence, making them easier for him to find, due to his link with them.

As far as I am concerned with sonic he just has strong enough will power and a pure heart to be able to use them. He may have been predetermined o be able to use them (as the mural in hidden palace suggests) but I think it has something to do with his experience and the fact he is the hero (he took it upon himself to stop eggman selflessly) shows he ha a pure heart. But hey it's just speculation!

Edited January 16, 2013 by Jolt_TH

[Jango]

Well, dividing Sonic's world by islands like it always been seems reasonable. Sonic 1, 2 and 3 all have their own islands, not to mention Sonic 4 island, which according to Ken Balough, takes place on an island near Sonic 2's island. What is weird tho, is that Mystic Ruins is conected to Angel Island in SA1. As for me, I like  to believe every single game has it's own locations, no matter how realistic or not it looks, and they all belong to the same planet. Some places of the world has nature, other cities just like... just like Earth. And the way each character differs from other, it's just the way Sonic see them, and also, different art directions. This is what makes Sonic's world so special and imaginative. Someone take the dibs to draw the entire Sonic's world?

Edited January 16, 2013 by Undead Jango

[Jolt_TH]

If i was any good at drawing I'd give it a go, but it would look like a little kid drew it! Hey I might give it a go yet

In terms if Angel Island, I can't see why the power of the master emerald can't make it move? Who has to say it cant move slowly anyway? In Sonic 3 it looks by itself above the ocean, in Sonic Advbture it's above mystic ruins, maybe it floated Iover there?

Edited January 16, 2013 by Jolt_TH

[Spin Attaxx]

Does anyone remember when the old manuals implied that there were more than 7 emeralds? Like how Angel Island had it's own set of emeralds that were destroyed when the Death Egg crashed onto it?

[Indigo Rush]

Does anyone remember when the old manuals implied that there were more than 7 emeralds? Like how Angel Island had it's own set of emeralds that were destroyed when the Death Egg crashed onto it?

 

Nope. Where did you get this idea?

[Spin Attaxx]

Well, I read on a website (Concept:Mobius, I think) that the whole "Angel Island has it's own set of emeralds" thing was from the Japanese manual of either Sonic 3 or Sonic and Knuckles.

[Indigo Rush]

Ah, I see what you're talking about. It is mentioned in the Japanese manual... however, any hope that multiple sets of emeralds being the status quo is totally shattered by practically every single game after S3&K. (sparing Sonic Spinball and Sonic the Fighters, of course) Even if this was the original intention, it has without a doubt been retconned. There is also the possibility of it being an error in translation. I would like to point you to a post by Sonic Retro's Frozen Nitrogen, he deals with the apparent plothole very nicely:

 

Just because it said it IN KANJI doesn't stop it being woefully inconsistent with all other evidence.

It's pretty clear from the games overall that there are seven Emeralds, there are ONLY seven Emeralds, and there have ALWAYS been seven Emeralds. If we can overlook the 6 in Sonic 1 or the 8 in Sonic the Fighters or the however-many in Sonic Spinball, then we can overlook one line from a Japanese manual.

Besides:
[Prospective timeline follows; I AM a fanfic writer so ]
(Assuming that the Super Emeralds are just the normal Chaos Emeralds that sometimes get (for some reason) supersized in the presence of the ME)

* 4,000 years ago there's a shrine in the Mystic Ruins for the ME and Super-Emerald-sized CEs
* Pachacamac kills Chao; Perfect Chaos ROID RAGES; emeralds scatter a'la Dragonballz
* Remaining echidnas on Floating Island get Troll's Remorse and decide to guard the ME underground; build Hidden Palace
* Build Hidden Palace WITH SPACES FOR the Chaos Emeralds even though they don't actually have them right now; but they want somewhere to put them if/when they ever get them back
* Many years later, Sonic gets the Emeralds on South / Westside Island
* Brings them to Angel Island
* Knuckles takes them MAINLY just because Robotnik told him to, but also because there's vague ancient records about how 7 smaller emeralds belong with the Master Emerald
* Chaos Emeralds warp themselves back into the special zone (as they do between EVERY GAME) before Knux can do anything with them
* Sonic gets them back while on the Floating Island
* And Sonic eventually takes them to the HPZ. When Sonic stepped through the big ring was the first time those 7 plinths had ever actually been occupied.

 

Original topic link.

[Spin Attaxx]

Yeah, I know that the whole thing's been retconned, but I'm still sure that canonically Sonic never went to Hidden Palace until he fought Kunckles, so that last point doesn't make much sense.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Spin Attaxx

[Indigo Rush]

Yeah, I know that the whole thing's been retconned, but I'm still sure that canonically Sonic never went to Hidden Palace until he fought Kunckles, so that last point doesn't make much sense.

 

 

?

 

I do believe that is Sonic in Hidden Palace Zone prior to fighting Knuckles.