Is Shadow the Hedgehog really a bad game? Or was a underrated gem?

[sonfan1984]

 And like it or not the information in this game about Shadows backstory is canon to the games and here to stay and I doubt sega is going to contradict essentially a entire background story of a character just because the fans don't like it.

 

The more reasons why I don't want a remake or for Sega to 'fix it. I'd rather forget the events about Shadow's backstory in his game ever happened and just go with his more likeable and simpler backstory from SA2.

Edited December 15, 2012 by sonfan1984

[Diogenes]

Because it's needlessly exaggerated in a clear-as-day attempt at defining him from Shadow and drumming-in the concept of them being polar opposites without any subtlety whatsoever when he was defined perfectly well from Shadow in SA2 with subtlety and whilst staying true to his personality.

Or, and this is a radical idea, I know...maybe he was excited? Because that's a thing Sonic is supposed to be capable of.

I swear, I just don't fucking get it. Sonic is a touch more animated than normal and suddenly people act like he's some horrible parody of himself.

 

Maybe instead of trying to rationalize away how Sonic acts and then getting angry about that rationalization you made up, you can just accept that Sonic enjoys and gets excited about adventures.

[Kuzu]

Sonic's just Flanderized to make him epitomize the exact polar opposite of his dark rival when we've been shown before that nothing about Sonic's personality and outlook needs to be exaggerated to make him contrast with Shadow.

[Vertekins]

Here's a thought, you ever think because Sonic isn't the main focus of the game, meaning the story is NOT told from his perspective at all, he's not going to be as expressive as he normally is? The entire conflict is more Shadow's than Sonic's so what reason does he have to suddenly start treating these run of the mill aliens like they just killed his best friend? I mean seriously, it's like complaining if Batman suddenly started being more secretive than usual.

 

This point would only have credibility if the games were actually told from the perspective of the character that stars in them. I interpret 'perspective' to mean that we see the game through the characters eyes and we hear the intimate thoughts on what they are faced with from their POV i.e We hear what they are thinkinh and what they are seeing all of the time. Whilst there are tiny instances of seeing things through characters eyes (See Unleashed for a couple of examples in which the camera work when the focus turns on Chip in the cutscene after the opening is strongly implied to be what Sonic is actually seeing), the cutscenes never really go beyond that to my memory (Except for SatSR's self-proclaimed Soliloquy from Sonic when he gets the White World Ring), it is not a constant and we only hear what they personally, intimately think in the story recap screens in the Adventure games.

 

It's never even been vaguely hinted that Sonic's characterization in ShTH is an amalgamation of Shadow's personal interpretation of him. And I still stand by my point that he was exaggerated for the sake of making him a bigger contrast from Shadow than what he actually is.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Vertekins

[Diogenes]

Not that I think this is what ShtH was doing (because I don't think Sonic was so out of character that we need to concoct some explanation for it), but you can tell a story from a particular character's perspective without literally putting the camera in their head.

[MegasonicZX]

Okay well obviously if you dislike the game which Santa you have made apparent, you aren't going to really have positive ideas about improving the game. Basically what you said there was just vague because you dislike it.  I didn't mean changing the core of the game either I mean't improving structural things like levels and such not the entire theme and foundation of the game or else it might as well not be Shadow the Hedgehog and something else. And like it or not the information in this game about Shadows backstory is canon to the games and here to stay and I doubt sega is going to contradict essentially a entire background story of a character just because the fans don't like it.

 

I know i've gotten a lot of heat for even showing interest and actually being positive about this game but I stand by it and don't think that everything has to be negative because in reality its not.

 

Its fine if you hate the game but i'd rather there be more elaborate responses that actually have nice ideas. Thanks

 

Who said obsession? I never said that it was just an idea. There is no "deal" unless your taking something else from what others opinions are and just assuming. Maybe I feel that Shadow could be good with some improvements and people are entitled to like the game you know I being one fan who does appreciate its positives and just wish for a little more.

I'm just gonna say that I would fully support a remake or sequel of this game cause like you said this game has a lot of potential and should be worked upon a bit more, the mechanics were cool though a bit weird at times and the guns were a nice addition too without taking away much, maybe reduce the amount of swears and stuff and make the first level less depressing and its cool, I honestly don't know why people put this game down so much anyway without atleast giving more of a good reason as to why this cannot be improved especially when anything is possible.

[lounge]

I never thought it was a bad game. I enjoyed it much more than Heroes. Loved the story too. I do think the game could've definitely used an extra year of fine tuning. Stuff like controls, graphics, vehicles, stupid heroes models, design, multiplayer needed more work.

And as cool as the CG scenes were, they should've scrapped all that and put the money that went to making those toward the actual game engine. Nintendo understands this.

 

I had the gamecube version so I didn't have any problems with cheap deaths or anything like that. The controls were adaptable for me. But someone who isn't used to sonic would definitely have a hard time.

[Diogenes]

I honestly don't know why people put this game down so much anyway without atleast giving more of a good reason as to why this cannot be improved especially when anything is possible.

I gave damn good reasons for hating the game, and if you changed every one of them, it wouldn't be the same game anymore. And if you think anything is possible, there's literally nothing I can say to convince you it's a bad idea, so there's no point in talking to you about it.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Diogenes

[Kuzu]

This point would only have credibility if the games were actually told from the perspective of the character that stars in them. I interpret 'perspective' to mean that we see the game through the characters eyes and we hear the intimate thoughts on what they are faced with from their POV i.e We hear what they are thinkinh and what they are seeing all of the time. Whilst there are tiny instances of seeing things through characters eyes (See Unleashed for a couple of examples in which the camera work when the focus turns on Chip in the cutscene after the opening is strongly implied to be what Sonic is actually seeing), the cutscenes never really go beyond that to my memory (Except for SatSR's self-proclaimed Soliloquy from Sonic when he gets the White World Ring), it is not a constant and we only hear what they personally, intimately think in the story recap screens in the Adventure games.

[Xenos]

Didn't we already have this argument..?

 

Even if we were to say Sonic is completely in character which can be argued just as well, there are instances where Sonic is a little too excited about things.

 

I'm not gonna say his character is outright derailed because this is a quality of Sonic we're seeing here, although it's bloated and seen a lot more compared to what we usually see from Sonic in other games. But this could also be because we don't see Sonic so much, so there isn't really a lot of time to focus on ever aspect of his character, so they probably took one aspect and ran with it more. Take that as you will.

 

I highly doubt we're seeing all of this from Shadow's perspective, because by the end of SA2 Shadow comes to somewhat respect Sonic before his death, so why the second time around, even with amnesia, he suddenly sees Sonic as slightly more annoying and/or excited over things? There isn't a real explanation for that.

[Diogenes]

Didn't we already have this argument..?

We are always having this argument.

I'm not gonna say his character is outright derailed because this is a quality of Sonic we're seeing here, although it's bloated and seen a lot more compared to what we usually see from Sonic in other games.

By how much? Really, how many times does Sonic act that way in ShtH?

I highly doubt we're seeing all of this from Shadow's perspective, because by the end of SA2 Shadow comes to somewhat respect Sonic before his death, so why the second time around, even with amnesia, he suddenly sees Sonic as slightly more annoying and/or excited over things? There isn't a real explanation for that.

Shadow thought Sonic was a pest through most of SA2, it's not unreasonable that he'd think likewise after a bout of amnesia wiped out his reasons to respect him.

[Xenos]

We are always having this argument.

By how much? Really, how many times does Sonic act that way in ShtH?

Shadow thought Sonic was a pest through most of SA2, it's not unreasonable that he'd think likewise after a bout of amnesia wiped out his reasons to respect him.

How much? I can't really say.

 

Mostly because again, we don't see Sonic all that often. But from most of what I've seen he's at least a little more hyperactive than usual. Maybe not to the point of being outright derailed but it's a bit more than he usually shows in other games to me.

 

And if that was the case, where do we have an exact explanation if the entire game is all in Shadow's viewpoint? There could be some scenes that do focus on his viewpoint, but the entire game?

[Diogenes]

But from most of what I've seen he's at least a little more hyperactive than usual. Maybe not to the point of being outright derailed but it's a bit more than he usually shows in other games to me.

Even if he is more energetic than usual I would hardly call that a problem. Sonic too often comes off as bland for a guy who's supposed to be about action and adventure.

There could be some scenes that do focus on his viewpoint, but the entire game?

Well it's his game, isn't it? He is the title character, he is the sole protagonist and playable character. If they were going to filter things through his viewpoint, without calling attention to it as different from the facts, wouldn't it make sense to extend it to the whole game (excluding the few scenes that he isn't in)?

[Speederino]

I would never ever go as far as to call ShTH an "underrated gem". But I will say that I didn't find it to be all that bad either. I rented it out of curiosity expecting something terrible beyond comprehension. Maybe it's just because of my really low expectations, but yeah, it was perfectly playable. I can honestly say I like it better then Sonic Heroes, which I found to be really mediocre at best.

 

However, since I didn't find this to be that bad, I suddenly thought "Hey, if the criticism towards this game was exaggerated, then maybe the same is true for Sonic 2006!" I still haven't forgiven myself for that one.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Speederino

[Straw Hat]

Nope.... It wasn't worse than 06, but no way can I consider this game an underrated gem.

[Kuzu]

Man , I take too long for these things.

Didn't we already have this argument..?

 

Even if we were to say Sonic is completely in character which can be argued just as well, there are instances where Sonic is a little too excited about things.

What counts as "too excited" and why is it out of Sonic's normal range of emotion?

 

 

I'm not gonna say his character is outright derailed because this is a quality of Sonic we're seeing here, although it's bloated and seen a lot more compared to what we usually see from Sonic in other games. But this could also be because we don't see Sonic so much, so there isn't really a lot of time to focus on ever aspect of his character, so they probably took one aspect and ran with it more. Take that as you will.[

 

Ok, just because Sonic is showing more emotion than he normally does doesn't suddnly mean it's a product of this game's shit writing, and I still don't see what is so wrong with Sonic being excited over fighting a new foe

 

I highly doubt we're seeing all of this from Shadow's perspective, because by the end of SA2 Shadow comes to somewhat respect Sonic before his death, so why the second time around, even with amnesia, he suddenly sees Sonic as slightly more annoying and/or excited over things? There isn't a real explanation for that.

 

Well....he is the game's protagonist for starters sooooo.

[Xenos]

Even if he is more energetic than usual I would hardly call that a problem. Sonic too often comes off as bland for a guy who's supposed to be about action and adventure.

Well it's his game, isn't it? He is the title character, he is the sole protagonist and playable character. If they were going to filter things through his viewpoint, without calling attention to it as different from the facts, wouldn't it make sense to extend it to the whole game (excluding the few scenes that he isn't in)?

Even so, Sonic doesn't spontaneously laugh in mid-sentence.

 

I dunno, maybe it's more because the tone Jason is giving Sonic in the game that makes it come across as more obnoxious. And that's what I'm saying we don't know if the game is all the way from Shadow's viewpoint or if it's just us, the player seeing everything from an outside perspective as usual.

 

It might be Shadow's game but it doesn't mean everything is from his viewpoint. If that was the case wouldn't every game where Sonic is the main character be from his viewpoint?

 

Man , I take too long for these things.

What counts as "too excited" and why is it out of Sonic's normal range of emotion?

 

 

 

Ok, just because Sonic is showing more emotion than he normally does doesn't suddnly mean it's a product of this game's shit writing, and I still don't see what is so wrong with Sonic being excited over fighting a new foe

 

 

Well....he is the game's protagonist for starters sooooo.

What counts as too excited?

 

Maybe if I had a way to replay the game right now I could show more stuff, but mostly I'm getting it from how Jason is making Sonic say some lines and it sounds really obnoxious. Not too mention the same video I showed a page ago with Sonic laughing for no reason making it seem very...out there.

 

Although I'm not getting one thing, Sonic is excited for fighting a new foe right?

 

Was he exactly super ecstatic to fight Shadow in Sonic Adventure 2?

 

Does he get the jitters when he meets Erazor in Sonic and The Secret Rings?

 

Was he jumping with excitement seeing King Arthur in Sonic and The Black Knight?

 

Not to mention two of those three games are said to have some of the better stories in the series, while also having more rounded characterization for our blue blur.

 

Hell, even if Sonic does get excited seeing a new foe or rival, (Jet comes to mind, "Oh, new competition!" was all he said, and after that Jet continued to make Sonic pissed bit by bit by challenging his speed, which Sonic keeps a lot of his pride in.) he still doesn't do so as constantly as we see him do in Shadow's game, as little as it is.

[Kuzu]

What counts as too excited?

 

Maybe if I had a way to replay the game right now I could show more stuff, but mostly I'm getting it from how Jason is making Sonic say some lines and it sounds really obnoxious. Not too mention the same video I showed a page ago with Sonic laughing for no reason making it seem very...out there.

I admit it's out there, but nothing strange enough to suddenly count as an exaggeration of Sonic's character.

 

Although I'm not getting one thing, Sonic is excited for fighting a new foe right?

 

Was he exactly super ecstatic to fight Shadow in Sonic Adventure 2?

 

Does he get the jitters when he meets Erazor in Sonic and The Secret Rings?

 

Was he jumping with excitement seeing King Arthur in Sonic and The Black Knight?

Well Shadow kind of framed him for a crime he didn't commit in Sa2, Erazor killed a close friend of his, and he compared King Arthur's rule with "Halloween" soooo

 

The point is, the Black Arms didn't really do anything to warrant Sonic taking them seriously; Ooohhh a bunch of generic aliens, I mean why should he take them seriously? What have they done on par with the above to warrant Sonic taking them seriously as a threat and not just a bunch of run of the mill mooks? 

 

 

Not to mention two of those three games are said to have some of the better stories in the series, while also having more rounded characterization for our blue blur.

 

Hell, even if Sonic does get excited seeing a new foe or rival, (Jet comes to mind, "Oh, new competition!" was all he said, and after that Jet continued to make Sonic pissed bit by bit by challenging his speed, which Sonic keeps a lot of his pride in.) he still doesn't do so as constantly as we see him do in Shadow's game, as little as it is.

 

That's not what we're talking about, and I'm starting to get the feeling people will just consider Sonic(or any other character for that matter) acting any other way than they want him to as "Character Derailment". Like there's something wrong when the writers don't do what their fans want.

 

You know what Character Derailment is? It's when a character acts contrary to their established characterization? Last time I checked, Sonic was still a hero in Shadow's game, he was still an upbeat guy, he was still cracking corny one liners, and he was still a compassionate guy. So please tell me, what character derailment did Sonic go through that apparently I'm not seeing, that everyone else can?

Edited December 17, 2012 by Ragna Claus

[Mega]

Can I just say that I find Shadow's attitude incredibly jarring in this game?

In Heroes, he's... pretty hammy. He's also oddly upbeat in a lot of cases, smiling, cracking a few snarky jokes. Then in ShtH it's like all the 'humor' got sucked out of him, which is weird given that he still had amnesia IN Heroes.

[Diogenes]

Even so, Sonic doesn't spontaneously laugh in mid-sentence.

That line, I don't know what exactly they were going for, but I really don't see how it's obnoxious or out of character...it's just odd.

It might be Shadow's game but it doesn't mean everything is from his viewpoint. If that was the case wouldn't every game where Sonic is the main character be from his viewpoint?

I'm not saying a story's automatically from the viewpoint of its main character, just that we're at least seeing things solely from over Shadow's shoulder (as opposed to, like, SA2, where we're following a bunch of characters), so if they're showing some things through his eyes it's not a stretch for them to be showing the whole game through his eyes.

Was he exactly super ecstatic to fight Shadow in Sonic Adventure 2?

Shadow's a bit of an exception, because he really touched a nerve and pissed Sonic off. But once he pulled it together?

Does he get the jitters when he meets Erazor in Sonic and The Secret Rings?

Was he jumping with excitement seeing King Arthur in Sonic and The Black Knight?

Not to mention two of those three games are said to have some of the better stories in the series, while also having more rounded characterization for our blue blur.

Hm, which two? Anyway I'm not going to argue that ShtH doesn't have a shitty story (it does, an absolutely, unredeemably bad story), and given that Sonic's only a sidekick in it it only makes sense that he was trimmed down to only the essential details. Yeah, Sonic's been better characterized in games that were better written and gave more attention to him, but that doesn't mean there's necessarily anything wrong with how he was shown in ShtH.

Hell, even if Sonic does get excited seeing a new foe or rival, (Jet comes to mind, "Oh, new competition!" was all he said, and after that Jet continued to make Sonic pissed bit by bit by challenging his speed, which Sonic keeps a lot of his pride in.) he still doesn't do so as constantly as we see him do in Shadow's game, as little as it is.

And what qualifies as "constantly"? I still don't know what scenes you find problematic aside from the Black Bull scene and that laugh that you're stuck on.

[Kuzu]

Well since we're on the subject of this game, let's see what Johnny has to say about it: 

 

Edited December 17, 2012 by Ragna Claus

[TheOcelot]

Well since we're on the subject of this game, let's see what Johnny has to say about it: 

 

 

Johnny really fucking hates ShTH. It's hard to disagree with what he said, he makes good points.

[Your Vest Friend]

I can disagree with the gameplay being like Heroes' Team Chaotix. Sometimes it can dabble in it (E.g. the Hero mission of Cryptic Castle), but otherwise it feels mostly like...well, Team Dark's gameplay, given that their extra missions focused exclusively on killing a given number of enemies. 

[Kuzu]

I can disagree with the gameplay being like Heroes' Team Chaotix. Sometimes it can dabble in it (E.g. the Hero mission of Cryptic Castle), but otherwise it feels mostly like...well, Team Dark's gameplay, given that their extra missions focused exclusively on killing a given number of enemies. 

 

 

Well Team Dark didn't have to search throughout the entire level just to finish it, it's more of a combination of the two. A really shitty combination which is just as tedious.

[Xenos]

I admit it's out there, but nothing strange enough to suddenly count as an exaggeration of Sonic's character.

 

Well Shadow kind of framed him for a crime he didn't commit in Sa2, Erazor killed a close friend of his, and he compared King Arthur's rule with "Halloween" soooo

 

The point is, the Black Arms didn't really do anything to warrant Sonic taking them seriously; Ooohhh a bunch of generic aliens, I mean why should he take them seriously? What have they done on par with the above to warrant Sonic taking them seriously as a threat and not just a bunch of run of the mill mooks? 

 

 

That's not what we're talking about, and I'm starting to get the feeling people will just consider Sonic(or any other character for that matter) acting any other way than they want him to as "Character Derailment". Like there's something wrong when the writers don't do what their fans want.

 

You know what Character Derailment is? It's when a character acts contrary to their established characterization? Last time I checked, Sonic was still a hero in Shadow's game, he was still an upbeat guy, he was still cracking corny one liners, and he was still a compassionate guy. So please tell me, what character derailment did Sonic go through that apparently I'm not seeing, that everyone else can?

What the hell?

 

Are you saying an entire alien invasion of the entire planet is something Sonic can't take seriously? I mean in the very beginning cutscene they've already outright destroyed an entire city that's half city and half rubble and ruin. Not to mention the giant fucking comet about to insert itself in Earth's personal space and obliterate it?

 

And why are you pointing out after he killed Shahra? Even before that instance Sonic is relatively cocky but he's still not exactly as cocky as in Shadow's game.

 

Wow, Sonic compared King Arthur's rule with Halloween. That isn't nearly anything like how Sonic reacts to most situations in Shadow! Not even close.

 

And I'm getting really fucking tired of having to say over and over that I stated before it isn't total derailment of character, just a small exaggeration of one quality Sonic has over others. So you can stop the lectures, please. And yeah, I do feel the laughter to be a weird thing, it's odd, and it also implies Sonic is slightly more...happy about things? I dunno, just felt out of character.

 

Hell, I don't know any character in the series that would randomly laugh like that give or take...

That line, I don't know what exactly they were going for, but I really don't see how it's obnoxious or out of character...it's just odd.

I'm not saying a story's automatically from the viewpoint of its main character, just that we're at least seeing things solely from over Shadow's shoulder (as opposed to, like, SA2, where we're following a bunch of characters), so if they're showing some things through his eyes it's not a stretch for them to be showing the whole game through his eyes.

Shadow's a bit of an exception, because he really touched a nerve and pissed Sonic off. But once he pulled it together?

Hm, which two? Anyway I'm not going to argue that ShtH doesn't have a shitty story (it does, an absolutely, unredeemably bad story), and given that Sonic's only a sidekick in it it only makes sense that he was trimmed down to only the essential details. Yeah, Sonic's been better characterized in games that were better written and gave more attention to him, but that doesn't mean there's necessarily anything wrong with how he was shown in ShtH.

And what qualifies as "constantly"? I still don't know what scenes you find problematic aside from the Black Bull scene and that laugh that you're stuck on.

Those are the two of the main ones he's in, and mainly the ones I want to focus on.

 

But if we were to run with the idea that we're seeing how Shadow thinks Sonic is, where does that leave the rest of the cast? Everyone else acts relatively the same don't they? You'd think Eggman would seem slightly different to Shadow considering Shadow seems to have some respect for the Doctor, and that he is also a descendant of his creator.

 

It was obnoxious because....you know, at this point maybe it's how Jason is saying his lines more than what Sonic is actually doing at this point. And those examples you showed? All have different ways of showing Sonic's cocky attitude, they're all similar but Shadow is a little different in how Sonic acts.

 

But the more I talk about this, the less bad it seems, so I guess that's a plus for this game.