Why the animosity towards one another?

[Stacy]

I personally now try to avoid debates where the overall argument is sided against me, I have encountered some shit-stirrers in my time on here especially when I was prone to ranting in the status updates and I myself these days try to avoid stirring the pot.

I sometimes read the Sonic Discussions and rarely post there because usually their some big master debate over something that just seems so trivial to me.

Edited October 31, 2012 by BW199148

[Blackthorne]

Personally i lurk now and barely post because of the rough and tumble with the NSFW stuff, after Remy posted that topic, i got rained on pretty hard from a ton of members, i expressed my anger and distress in the status feed to release tension, and it was somehow interpreted as me "leaving SSMB" suddenly, pages and pages and Pages of status feeds rolled up with mixed responses, and a lot of hurtful things were said while i was AFK, i came back to people encouraging me to leave, calling me stupid, "let the door hit you on the way out" etc. and now everyone immediately refers to me when it comes to the NSFW topic, even though it was nothing to do with having NSFW "anime titties" in my avatar, because of your action Remz, i feel tense about posting here, as if i'm walking on eggshells and one wrong move will get me into hot water again, because of your action i now have members i try to avoid because i honestly feel hated, and still you joke about the whole ordeal as if it's a joke, but it still fucking hurts me in the process.

I told you i fully back the rules, yet people completely took it the wrong way and claimed i was just "butthurt" and causing drama, when i was just expressing my side of the story, i think it's pretty upsetting when you're too annoyed and disappointed with a Mod you used to be tight with, it honestly hurts Remz i'm not sure what to think about it...

Just had to get that out in the clear, it's been on my shoulders this whole time.

It's all water under the bridge now, i try not to hold grudges.

I hope you and Remz are cool again at this point. To be fair to him, I don't think he had any intention of starting the drama that followed, I think he was just trying to explain the new policy without trying to be too serious about it.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Blackthorne

[goku262002]

When did this go down Soniko? I must've been Retro lurking or something because I can't recall any of this.

[tenchibr]

I am sorry, but the lack of news does not excuse anyone from being inconsiderate.

I also noticed that for every piece of main news, there's always a complaint. You can't please everyone, but if you ever are unhappy or have a valid complaint, I'd appreciate if you express it in a civil manner.

[Lady Soniko]

When did this go down Soniko? I must've been Retro lurking or something because I can't recall any of this.

the following morning-mid day after the Thread was made if i remember correctly.

[goku262002]

the following morning-mid day after the Thread was made if i remember correctly.

This thread or another one?

So big-boobied displays are forbidden now? aww damn! there goes my genderbent idea...

[Lady Soniko]

no no, the NSFW made a few weeks ago.

[goku262002]

no no, the NSFW made a few weeks ago.

Ah well PM me more about it because I can recall any of this or remember this topic and were derailing the topic here.

[Nepenthe]

I don't believe opinions automatically need to be respected. I'm sorry, but I just don't. I respect that everyone has a right to express them, but not that the opinions themselves have to be respected simply because they are uttered.

Know that I've read your whole post Tornado and I understand where you're coming from, but I want to use this one bit as a springboard for what I think the collective here are referring to when talking about all of this, as well as other thoughts I've had about this:

In general, I don't think anyone who has posted in this thread has advocated that their opinion deserves respect insofar as it does not deserve criticism. One of the big themes in this thread has been "By all means, tell me why I'm wrong, but don't be an asshole in the process of it." In the overwhelming majority of cases here, there's really no reason why a counterargument needs to be laced with any kind of douchery directly intent on insulting the poster and making them feel bad because they hold different opinions than you, or opinions that aren't as well-researched and founded on reason as you would like them to be. It's true that we'll get people who don't accept any form of counterargument no matter how pleasant it is (the recent Boost thread), but it's an exception to the rule I think and doesn't justify the behavior.

It's especially ironic in the context of Sonic discussion too, because we have a tendency to readily defend the fanbase's wide variety of thought as a good thing, but the attitude some people take doesn't follow this notion. Indeed, we would much rather no one think anything positive about the games, characters, stories, shows and whatever else most others absolutely hate or vice versa, or at least be aware that their opinion is "wrong" (a stupid sentiment which makes me want to post Binky's Opinion Game every time I see it), and will certainly brute-force our opinions down someone's throat anyway.

Indeed, treating topics as intellectual and word-count dick-waving contests or opportunities to rip people apart the moment they post something you don't like is problematic. The only thing you're really doing by adopting this attitude is giving people the impression that needing to walk on eggshells is warranted, keeping them out of threads where you lurk even if they otherwise might have something interesting to say because they know you're going to pounce on them for it, forming echo chambers where a difference in opinion is needlessly complicated to the point of being inefficient to express (One example I remember was "What do you like about ShtH?" thread where the majority of otherwise smart people completely missed the point of the thread and dogpiled on this one fan who, while he wasn't the best debater, seemed like a decent guy, and I genuinely felt sorry for him), which in turn causes meltdowns, which in turn causes mods to coalesce discussion into one thread if not banning it outright, which people ironically start complaining about and which causes the mods anguish.

So ultimately, this attitude has wide-reaching and exclusively negative consequences for everyone involved on the board, so I see absolutely no good in it. I of all people don't mean to stifle debate, but I don't think the attitude I've described is even debate so much as it is just aggressively culling thought. And it's not like we're talking about deep-rooted social issues where education is actually in the interest of bettering the social fabric of our society either. All of this generally happens over a video game series, and an ailing one at that. Think about that for a second and please tell me I can't be the only one who finds this whole "I need to rip you apart when you step out of line" attitude ridiculous and amazingly arrogant.

[Frogging101]

One of the big themes in this thread has been "By all means, tell me why I'm wrong, but don't be an asshole in the process of it."

I read your whole post, and I'm not disregarding your other points (which were very good) but I felt that this was worth repeating most of all. This is what we should remember and this quote should be somewhere in our minds whenever we post something that criticizes an opinion. Criticism is fine, debate is fine (in fact, without debate, the discussion would be very dull). But I know that it is possible to have a debate while still being nice and wording our posts in a way that is not insulting.

I can combine this with the theme of Diz's and say this:

If you post in a topic, you are going to contribute. If you don't want to contribute, then leave it be. And while contributing, keep this in mind: There's nothing wrong with telling someone that they are wrong or disagreeing with their opinion, but be friendly and don't be insulting or condescending while doing so.

I hope I summed up the important things with that paragraph. That's the attitude we should have when we post on SSMB.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Frogging101

[Celestia]

So uh, I don't think I've contributed to any of the animosity lately, but if I have and it's just slipping my mind, I apologize sincerely for anything hurtful or just plain annoying I've said. I generally consider myself an alright guy, but I know I can be a jerk sometimes. Especially when I've had a bad day. So yeah, sorry for any jerky-ness.

I have to say though, I don't understand the "no Sonic news = everyone hates each other!" theory. I mean, I can see being a bit frustrated by no announcements or anything, but I don't think it'd cause stuff like this, would it?

[Coral]

I have to say though, I don't understand the "no Sonic news = everyone hates each other!" theory. I mean, I can see being a bit frustrated by no announcements or anything, but I don't think it'd cause stuff like this, would it?

I'm thinking when people say that, they mean that to keep interest in discussion people will start mini fights to entertain themselves in the downtime between game releases. I don't think that's an excuse for being a cranky jerk, but I guess it's an interesting theory.

[Nepenthe]

I really don't think it's a theory with much weight to it because the moment the next Sonic game is announced, its announcement article and/or trailer is going to be torn apart by the people who are not happy with the current direction of the series, which in turn will continue to inflame the same arguments we've been having for years now on top of ones pertaining exclusively to the new game.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Meito Anizawa

[Coral]

I think there's a fine line between a passionate fan with plenty of points to criticize/critique a game's style and a cranky jerk that says things just to instigate an arguement. There will be arguements, this is inherent in most types of discussion, but whether they become rage induced depends on the participants in the discussion and does not necessarily mean people are becoming jerks when they speak their mind passionately.

[tenchibr]

There's a difference between showing your genius and giving others an attitude for their "inferiority". What I have noticed though is most of our regular, more experienced members are showing a tendency of agreement towards this matter, which will in turn set an example for others to follow.

[Sean]

Personally i lurk now and barely post because of the rough and tumble with the NSFW stuff, after Remy posted that topic, i got rained on pretty hard from a ton of members, i expressed my anger and distress in the status feed to release tension, and it was somehow interpreted as me "leaving SSMB" suddenly, pages and pages and Pages of status feeds rolled up with mixed responses, and a lot of hurtful things were said while i was AFK, i came back to people encouraging me to leave, calling me stupid, "let the door hit you on the way out" etc. and now everyone immediately refers to me when it comes to the NSFW topic, even though it was nothing to do with having NSFW "anime titties" in my avatar, because of your action Remz, i feel tense about posting here, as if i'm walking on eggshells and one wrong move will get me into hot water again, because of your action i now have members i try to avoid because i honestly feel hated, and still you joke about the whole ordeal as if it's a joke, but it still fucking hurts me in the process.

I told you i fully back the rules, yet people completely took it the wrong way and claimed i was just "butthurt" and causing drama, when i was just expressing my side of the story, i think it's pretty upsetting when you're too annoyed and disappointed with a Mod you used to be tight with, it honestly hurts Remz i'm not sure what to think about it...

Just had to get that out in the clear, it's been on my shoulders this whole time.

It's all water under the bridge now, i try not to hold grudges.

While the rule still stands, it was not our intention to have a mockery made of you, and we locked the topic because of how ridiculous the situation was becoming. Having people gang up on you is terrible and it is my biggest peeve on the boards, but I don't think Remy is in any way to be blamed for it. Especially since the topic was a decision made by the staff team as a whole and not just by one person, and you were not in any formal trouble.

We take your well-being seriously, but I'd rather you didn't pin the blame on Remy or on our enforcing this rule.

[Nepenthe]

I think there's a fine line between a passionate fan with plenty of points to criticize/critique a game's style and a cranky jerk that says things just to instigate an arguement. There will be arguements, this is inherent in most types of discussion, but whether they become rage induced depends on the participants in the discussion and does not necessarily mean people are becoming jerks when they speak their mind passionately.

That's very true, so I'll back up and say that I don't mean to construe all arguing as incitement. At the same time however, there's not been a Sonic game I've seen announced and released since I've come back to SSMB that has not eventually resulted in the kind of personally insulting behavior we're all talking about.

With both Sonic 4 episodes, it was: "Anyone who likes this game is defending mediocrity and doesn't give a shit about the series!" as well as "The cynics are being way too picky and unreasonable expecting a carbon copy of S3&K!"

With Colors, it was: "You're absolutely crazy if you don't like the best 3D Sonic game that's ever made!" along with a lot of port-begging that in some instances led to us discussing the immorality of exclusive games and being okay with exclusive games, which was kinda weird.

With Generations, it was: "If you don't like the way the game looks to play/the level list, you're a hater bringing the good cheer down and should leave the rest of us alone!"

Those were the major points of contention for each game I remember, but needless to say the various topics were also privy to many smaller squabbles due to either a misunderstanding or just feelings running high to the point of blowing over. I personally remember merely talking about how Modern City Escape's level was laid out in one of the platforming sections, and someone went off the deep end on me and said I was needlessly complaining like every other person unimpressed with the game, complete with a reaction gif to top it off. It blew my mind how a person could construe me merely making observations as complaining, and in turn I snapped back.

So in my experience, this behavior we're discussing tends to be the norm when a Sonic game is announced, so I'm not expecting SSMB to be any more friendlier than it is when that inevitable announcement is made. In fact, I'm expecting it'll be worse, although I would love to be proven wrong. It'd be nice to discuss some Sonic news for once without anyone pointing a finger at you or feeling backed into a corner. xP

[Coral]

Oh yeah, I'm well aware of the power of the vocal majority when it comes to arguements. It's why I tend to keep quiet when discussions about Colors comes up and I don't want to be "that person" that just never liked the game. With those kinds of arguements, I agree with tenchibr in that it seems that small groups of people flaunt their superiority over the smaller groups on the other end of the spectrum, ending up convincing others to join in and make a mockery of the unpopular opinion like some kind of witch hunt. Though I haven't actually seen these shenangians on this board, being rather new, I have seen it on other boards and other fandoms. It's a really annoying perk and really discourages good discussion value for the people that are scared of getting a target placed on their forehead.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Coral

[Chooch]

You can't say "Sonic Adventure 2 is the best game ever in my opinion" without people questioning the hell out of you, attacking, or just plainly making fun of you. (of course it's just an example, SA2 is not my favorite game actually.)

This happens with literally every single game you can bring up.

Just because a number of people disagree with you and state reasons why, that doesn't mean that you're being attacked. People just want to you to defend your statements. I really think that's the problem more than people actually being antagonistic and holding animosity towards one another.

I'm finding that a lot of people just plain get offended when they're met with a lot of opposition at one time. I guess you could say I'm being mean, but I think people just need to learn not to be so sensitive. Sensitivity is what breeds a lot of these really angry, heated responses and, if you're like me, if someone brings it to you, you're sending it back at them tenfold.

I certainly don't hope you guys think I hate you just because I may have gotten into a lengthy back and forth with you about something. I've gotten into shit like that with some of my absolute favorite members here. We're different people so we're not always going to agree about every little thing. If we weren't so different it would be boring as hell! That's the beauty of communities like this.

Maybe I just look at things differently than everyone else? I am brash by nature and I know a lot of people may be thinking of me when they think of Sonic Stadium being full of assholes, but really, I'm a nice guy I swear! I also like making really bad jokes.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Chooch

[Nepenthe]

I preface this with saying that I don't want to defend people trying to stifle debate and conversation merely on the basis that people don't agree with them, because that's just plain indefensible, but I find it really difficult to believe that SA2 topics have been completely free of personal attacks and have instead been all about people merely trying to get a few posters to defend themselves, considering the game has now become notorious as the go-to favorite for thirteen year-old fanatics who apparently don't know any better. Whether it's intentional or not, that is effectively a stereotype that SA2 fans are going to have to overcome when talking about the game favorably, that there's a clear deficiency with their opinion in general because it's apparently obvious now that the game's a piece of crap.

Even if I did believe that there was no attacking going on whatsoever, you really don't need fifteen people telling you to defend your statements or repeating the same thing that one or two posters leading the pack say. It just makes the topic all the more overbearing and impenetrable, especially if someone isn't expecting to have to be on the defensive such as when the topic directly calls for them to express a particular thought they have regardless of whether or not it jives with everyone else. I think it would be much more productive to not post if someone has basically said what you're about to say and just click that "Like" button than merely telling someone to grow a pair and just take the dog-piling in stride. Even my argumentative self has been pushed away from topics where I was clearly overwhelmed by numbers even if I didn't post in it, such as nearly every Shadow topic made in the past few years. At the very least, it's an absolute time sink having to respond to that kind of opposition.

By the way, I don't think you hate me or that you're a bad guy. 8( And in fact, I hope no one here thinks I hate them either.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Meito Anizawa

[Chooch]

Oh I'm not saying that there isn't any attacking whatsoever, but I really think it goes both ways rather than just substantially one way and never the other. I don't know, I don't pay attention to every single topic, but most of the ones that immediately come to mind have been like that.

They really only got as bad as they did because the person whose opinion was being opposed made a really big fuss about it and resigned to having a really obnoxious attitude throughout the whole discussion.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Chooch

[Diogenes]

Just to comment on the "no news makes us rage" angle...I do think it's a factor. Definitely not the main factor, and it doesn't excuse poor behavior, but it does have some effect. A new game is an unknown, which levels the playing field a bit; we all still have our own preferences and our suspicions, and as more information comes out there's a more solid base for arguments, but when we're dealing with a lot of unknowns I think it's natural for people to be less aggressive, to hold back a bit until we actually know what the deal is.

But when there's no new news and we're dealing with subjects we've already argued about, the facts are out there, most people have formed their opinions, and the people that like to argue especially have probably refined those opinions quite a bit. That makes things a little more edgy; we've seen where this goes, so we're quicker to move through the opening arguments and quicker to hit whatever wall stopped the discussion last time. The Knuckles discussions are an example of this; seems like we're pretty much all burnt out over the subject just because of how long its been going in circles.

[Dr. Crusher]

The main problem I personally have with the "no games = no joy" reasoning is that the franchise can occasionally be criticised for bringing out so many so frequently (whether justified or not). So when there's complaints about the exact opposite and taking a break, let alone having arguments be justified by that, I'm ready to start waving a white flag in exhaustion.

I do see the point of how it makes sense, but I still very it's a weak excuse.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Dr. Crusher

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well there's that and how certain topics have made us edgy because of the logic behind others points. For example, most of the veteran members here have come to a consensus. Like say something with the characters: we realize they've been shit, but we want to fix them because we understand they're broken. So when someone comes here and says we should throw them away, that just seems to instantly press upon peoples berserk buttons, and from what I've seen it's pressed when the idea to fix them is ignored.

Person A: "X character sucks!"

Person B: "I happen to like that character, but I agree: he does suck right now. I think we can fix him if we did Y."

Person A: "No. We should get rid of him."

Person B: "Why?"

Person A: "There's no reason to have him around."

Person B: "Then we can come up with a new reason to have him around."

Person A: "Why do you want to keep X around? There's no use for him. Throw him away!"

Person B: "What the fuck kinda sense does that make? You realize we could actually fix him by taking care of Y?"

We've come to a state where there's always a contingency for many ideas. So when someone comes and says we should throw something away, I've seen it aggravate the hell out of members who see that as nothing more than the laziest kind of logic there is.

I don't think I want to go pointing members out. I will at the very least admit that this has happened to me. I guess you could say we pride ourselves on our logic so fiercely that we're incredibly antagonistic.

Also....

The Knuckles discussions are an example of this; seems like we're pretty much all burnt out over the subject just because of how long its been going in circles.

I want to take credit for this.

I think this has got to be one of the greatest debacles I've ever ignited on these forums since I first started it back in 2006. My very first opponent of the debate was Professor J, and it just proceeded to become one of the longest debacles ever since until it died down about last year.

Maybe we should make a medal for those who participated?

Edited October 31, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

I do see the point of how it makes sense, but I still very it's a weak excuse.

I'm not saying it's an excuse, I'm just saying it's a factor. One reason out of several that tensions have been a bit higher than usual.