So That Poll That Resulted in ShTH...

[Diogenes]

Still better than ShtH.

[Nepenthe]

If they can fuck up a Sonic anniversary game far more spectacularly just one year after the fact, what makes you think Knuckles is somehow immune from any outright embarrassment?

Edited October 29, 2012 by Meito Anizawa

[Linkabel]

Seriously though. Even if Knuckles' game would have been shit, it would not have been the spectacularly awful blend of shit that ShtH was. Can you think of anything they could've plausibly done with him that would've been as embarrassing as this?

They could've done this instead:

[BlazingTales]

Seriously though. Even if Knuckles' game would have been shit, it would not have been the spectacularly awful blend of shit that ShtH was. Can you think of anything they could've plausibly done with him that would've been as embarrassing as this?

*runs away*

[UltDevilDoom]

I only heard about it after they had announced Shadow the Hedgehog at Sony's Walk of Game. If had the chance, I would have voted for Shadow.

And Shadow didn't win. He was right behind Sonic, and that is part of the reason that Shadow the Hedgehog mas made. Another part was people asking Sega to give Sonic a gun. They knew they couldn't have done it with Sonic, but they thought about Shadow and went with it.

In the game, the gunplay was used too much with too few moves. If Shadow is so powerful, why does he need constant gunplay to destroy his enemies in the game? Why do I need to fill up a bar to use chaos powers? That made so little sense to me. I still liked it, but Sega really needed to fix certain parts of the game.

[Linkabel]

I only heard about it after they had announced Shadow the Hedgehog at Sony's Walk of Game. If had the chance, I would have voted for Shadow.

And Shadow didn't win. He was right behind Sonic, and that is part of the reason that Shadow the Hedgehog mas made. Another part was people asking Sega to give Sonic a gun. They knew they couldn't have done it with Sonic, but they thought about Shadow and went with it.

In the game, the gunplay was used too much with too few moves. If Shadow is so powerful, why does he need constant gunplay to destroy his enemies in the game? Why do I need to fill up a bar to use chaos powers? That made so little sense to me. I still liked it, but Sega really needed to fix certain parts of the game.

People didn't ask for Sonic to have a gun. Sonic Team just wanted to make a "darker" game and the weapons were part of this philosophy.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Seriously though. Even if Knuckles' game would have been shit, it would not have been the spectacularly awful blend of shit that ShtH was. Can you think of anything they could've plausibly done with him that would've been as embarrassing as this?

Sonic 06 says hi.

Considering it managed to outdo ShTH in being terrible and with Sonic himself to boot, it's really foolish to think they couldn't possibly have made a Knuckles game to be as shitty and embarrassing as ShTH.

Edited October 29, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

'06 was terrible for a lot of reasons, but story and themewise I don't think there's any one problem in it as poisonous as "Shadow on a motorcycle with a gun". No, not even Elise. Elise could've been okay, but there was no way to salvage ShtH once it got going.

Again, yeah, the hypothetical Knuckles game probably would suck. But it probably wouldn't be a uniquely universal failure like '06, nor would it likely have such a profoundly terrible seed like ShtH. It would most likely have been crappy like Heroes, but with more plot.

[Kuzu]

But there's no way to assume that tho, the series was already going down a dark path, and using Knuckles arguably would have been just as big a mark considering he's an even more established character than Shadow.

[Diogenes]

Of course there's no way to know for sure, I'm just saying I don't see any way they could've come up with something as poisonous as they did with Shadow.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Of course there's no way to know for sure, I'm just saying I don't see any way they could've come up with something as poisonous as they did with Shadow.

No one could see where they would take Shadow before his game is announced, so you not seeing something worse for Knuckles doesn't really fly. No one predicted guns, no one predicted a dark and edgy story that unintentionally parodied itself, no one predicted aliens, and no one predicted vehicles and cussing. All we could predict was Shadow getting his own game.

Considering the amount of unknowns before the annoucement, it doesn't matter whether you could see or not. You can't honestly say for good that a Knuckles game wouldn't have been any worst than Shadow's game at the time. If they were willing to jump off the cliff with any random thing for Shadow, I'm pretty sure they could make any random plot idea for Knuckles.

Here, let me give you an example of what they could have done with Knuckles: Angel Island could've been made by aliens that were part of Knuckles ancestry, creating it as a hidden fortress in case they needed to return to earth to recieve the Master Emerald and established Chaos as their weapon system to guard it from intruders. Knuckles ends up discovering this huge cache of technology that he's never seen on his own island in all his life, and in the process he opens a wormhole with the Master Emerald that leads to an force of extra-dimensional creatures that invade the planet. Knuckles needs to stop these aliens and figure out the mysteries involving his island and the Master Emerald that brought them into his world. I mean, I could keep going, but you can already see it's not starting decently in concept.

There. See? It's easy to use your imagination and think of how they could make a Knuckles game as shitty as Shadow's. The key is to add unnecessary junk to the backstory like they did with ShTH.

Edited October 29, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Phos]

I imagine someone in this thread has cited Iizuka's comment about always having planned to make a Shadow game, and I'm popping in to remind people how often Iizuka makes stuff up in interviews.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I imagine someone in this thread has cited Iizuka's comment about always having planned to make a Shadow game, and I'm popping in to remind people how often Iizuka makes stuff up in interviews.

Examples? You've said that before, but I'd like to see the stuff he lied about.

[Phos]

Examples? You've said that before, but I'd like to see the stuff he lied about.

It's a pretty obvious exaggeration that they had always planned on making a game about him, I really doubt they were planning to make a game about a character that they just killed (even though they brought him back the first chance they got), for example.

Dredging through a bunch of Iizuka interviews to fact check him isn't my idea of a good time, so I guess you can believe him if you want.

[Kiah]

My hands are clean of this, since I wasn't super big on the internet back then.

But truth be told, if I had the choice, 10/11 year old me would have probably voted for Shadow.

But today? Definitely Knuckles.

Guess my hands are clean of this as well, because not only was I not big on the Internet, I was currently in hiatus of the Sonic series for 10 years at that point in 2005.

But let's say under those circumstances that I just happened to stumble upon the poll via the Internet. I would of looked at the choices being puzzled at some of them as I had absolutely no idea of who any of the Sonic characters aside from Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Dr. Eggman were until 2010 when I made my return to Sonic. So that defintely meant that I didn't know who Shadow was back then. I would of picked Tails, as he's my second favorite character next to Sonic, not to mention I think a game starring him would of been very interesting. Knuckles would of been a good choice as well. The potential of excellent characterization of either Tails or Knuckles could be huge if they starred in their own game.

Today I would make the same choice with Tails as my pick with the same reasons I mentioned in the previous paragraph. If Knuckles had won I would of been fine with that too. I understand that Shadow is very popular among the fans (and don't get me wrong as I like him too), but I just feel that he shouldn't of had his own game in the main series before Tails and Knuckles did. I think they deserved it more than Shadow did.

I must admit I find this whole thing with Sega conducting the poll interesting along with the results. Although Shadow won the poll, it's a shame he was the main character of such a terrible game. I wouldn't wish that on any character, even if I hated them.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's a pretty obvious exaggeration that they had always planned on making a game about him, I really doubt they were planning to make a game about a character that they just killed (even though they brought him back the first chance they got), for example.

Dredging through a bunch of Iizuka interviews to fact check him isn't my idea of a good time, so I guess you can believe him if you want.

Unless someone has inside depth to what their plans were whether they intended to leave him dead or they revised things so that he can still be around (be it through fan demand, developer interest, or a combination of the two), I'd like to have a clear "Word of God" source than just making assumptions.

That, and arguing about whether they actually killed Shadow in the ending is just going to ignite a massive debate on whether it was ambiguous or not.

[Cortez]

Who the hell wanted Sonic to have a gun anyway?? I mean seriously.

SA2 was dark, but it wasn't that fucking dark to give anybody the idea of putting a gun in Sonic's hands.

[...]

Who the hell wanted Sonic to have a gun anyway?? I mean seriously.

SA2 was dark, but it wasn't that fucking dark to give anybody the idea of putting a gun in Sonic's hands.

>sonic fanbase

They could've done this instead:

He isn't chuckling.

Picture ruined forever.

[Your Vest Friend]

I just feel that he shouldn't of had his own game in the main series before Tails and Knuckles did. I think they deserved it more than Shadow did.

Nope, I'm not going to go ahead and say "LOL but they did", because technically that would be wrong (all their solo games are pretty much non-canon). Instead I'm going to see how they were treated in those spin-offs and stuff.

Tails: Extreme genre roulette both times (well, three times counting Music Maker). One was a pseudo-RPG, the other was nothing but flying (and was shit).

Knuckles: His game was more in line with the main Sonic gameplay...but he was arguably thrown in just to get in a few more sales from the familiarity of his character (which wasn't even utilised in Japan anyway), so that barely counts.

So...yeah, given their past treatment, combined with what was going on at the time, I can predict that we wouldn't have got anything that much better than Shadow turned out to be.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I understand that Shadow is very popular among the fans (and don't get me wrong as I like him too), but I just feel that he shouldn't of had his own game in the main series before Tails and Knuckles did. I think they deserved it more than Shadow did.

I think people need to stop with this nonsense, because the question of who deserves what isn't up for decision based on seniority. And quite frankly I'm just getting sick of people talking about how it should feel that way. It's no different from people who use Shadow's popularity and similarities to Sonic as a reason why he deserves more than other characters like Tails and Knuckles.

Whoever deserves a game is a matter of whether the folks behind the series want to make one for them. If they decide to give a fairly popular and recent character at the time a game over those who were around earlier, then you're shit out of luck. The same would be true if it were Tails or Knuckles.

[Emmett L. Brown]

It's not like Knuckles and Tails didn't get their own games when they were brand new and exciting characters.

Tails Adventures is a far, FAR superior game to Shadow the hedgehog, and possibly the best Game Gear game ever made (though that's not saying much). And then there's Knuckles Chaotix, end sentence.

[Nepenthe]

And in turn, the main rebuttal you'll find to that is that Tails' games were Game Gear titles and Knuckles' was shared between a whole cast of characters on a little-known system; it's a stark difference between those games and Shadow's regardless of your observation being technically correct.

[UltDevilDoom]

It's not like Knuckles and Tails didn't get their own games when they were brand new and exciting characters.

Tails Adventures is a far, FAR superior game to Shadow the hedgehog, and possibly the best Game Gear game ever made (though that's not saying much). And then there's Knuckles Chaotix, end sentence.

Knuckles had a cheap knockoff. Tails' games didn't fare much better.

Knuckles game was on an already dead system. Back in the day, I didn't know anyone who knew anyone who owned a 32X. Maybe somebody did, but was too embarassed to admit it. It was the first "Virtual Boy" of Sega, the second being the Sega Saturn. But damn, I loved the Saturn. Panzer Dragoon and Nights all the way. I will never forgive the Playstation.

Tails had two games on the Game Gear, Tails' Adventure and Tails's Sky Patrol. While I cannot bring myself to play these games, I played as Tails in Sonic Triple Trouble and Sonic Chaos, not counting the Genesis games. They are good. No bad comments here.

Shadow had a big budget production and was Sega's cash-in for the year. They put a lot of effort into it. Whle more than a few people hated it and it got bad reviews for the most part, more than a few liked it aa well. It sold over a million copies, a very impressive feat even by today's standards.

Comparing that to Knuckles' Chaotix and Tails' Adventure (and Tails' Sky Patrol) doesn't make much sense. I don't think either sold a thousand copies, and they are mostly forgotten. Shadow the Hedgehog, whether you like it, hate it, or just don't care, lives on.

[Nerfuffle]

Examples? You've said that before, but I'd like to see the stuff he lied about.

I was hunting for a different quote and Sandy wouldn't let me sleep anyway...

Mentioned quote;

"Since we first introduced him in Sonic Adventure 2, we have wanted to feature Shadow in his own game,"

http://www.nintendow....com/news/10414

Iizuka Before;

1UP: Was Shadow the Hedgehog designed with a more American audience in mind?

TI: No, I did not create Shadow the Hedgehog only to make it appealing for the U.S. market. I had all regions in the world in mind when I created this game.

http://www.1up.com/p...the-hedgehog_11

Iizuka After;

We wanted to offer other game systems to attract a different audience from traditional Sonic fans. In the US, first and third-person shooters were popular and we decided to go with a character who could work with them.”

http://www.sonicstad...was-u-s-gamers/

The topic starter?

GameSpy: Out of all the characters currently in the Sonic story, why did you choose to focus on Shadow for a new game?

Naka: When we took a look at which Sonic characters were popular among fans, Shadow was ranked right behind Sonic. We've also wanted to do a "gun action" game for a while now, and he seemed to be the best fit for that idea.

http://cube.gamespy....4/654735p1.html

Reason Shadow game was created number 56.

Yuji Naka: "We had received letters from kids, and many of them had asked for Sonic to have a gun," he said. "We felt that it was not appropriate for Sonic to have a gun, but maybe it would be ok with Shadow and that's how we started on the game."

http://www.1up.com/n...stling-hedgehog

Then the other hand says...

Iizuka: We wanted to expand the Sonic franchise by offering a more mature game with features that has never been possible before in a Sonic game.

http://www.ign.com/a...w-the-interview

Hmm, I wonder what Sega employees thought about all this …

.....“Revolving door of terrible managers” ....“Stay away” ....“Going nowhere…slowly” ....“wrong people promoted”..."poor communication" ...

http://www.glassdoor...views-E4174.htm

Yep, this was all probably the fanbase’s fault.

Edited October 30, 2012 by DuraV

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Nice dig. Tho not seeing anything about whether they intended to keep him dead or not, which is the main reason why I used one of the articles explaining they intended to use him more.

Edited October 30, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic