Why do people hate the modern sonic design so much?

[Kiah]

I don't know of a place that encourages strawmen, but it doesn't cease to be fun anyway. Well, let's see how I can respond to that.

EDIT: Oh, but before I start, this one comment

Very much came across as what I said up there. "These people have issues"... heh.

Why did you cut off my sentence, as I explained what issues I was talking about with the rest of the sentence. Please don't twist my words. This isn't the first time you have been asked not to put words in other' people's mouths in this thread.

Alright. Look. Many people in this thread have expressed what I feel towards this problem. They presented possible reasons and causes, some talked about personal experiences.

That's all good, that's all fair. An argument that implies that a whole chunk of mankind is just plain stupid and/or unreasonable and/or crazy, however, isn't.

Where did you get this from? Neither I nor anyone else in this thread said such a thing, nor implied it even. Once again, please don't twist my words as I neither am making an argument nor saying an ignorant statement like that.

Two objections: a-) If the lifespan of Classic Sonic is enough to drive some people to insanity and ignore the time modern Sonic has been around, doesn't that make it someting else? Wouldn't that indicate some kind of unalienable charisma instead of, I don't know, black magic? b-) if it makes it so absurd, have you considered the possibility of that not being the reason at all, instead of using this as yet another nebulous offense to those you disagree with?

I'm sorry, but what in the world are you talking about? Who said something about people being insane? As for the rest of your post, I'm not sure where you are getting at either.

Adapt? Tolerance...? Sonic is not my father, neither am I his. I'm not in love with him, he doesn't buy my groceries. I don't owe him money, I have no appointments with him whatsoever. I'm a costumer, not a devout. If the brand still holds the same name as before, but the products don't match, I have no obligation of "adapting". And that's why people like me don't like the modern design. It's not that it's the same Sonic, except different. To our eyes, it's a completely different entity.

Again, what are you talking about?! I said nothing about being under obligation to adapt. It was suggested, not demanded to do so, and I explained why. But once again, you are picking pieces of my posts and interpreting them a different way than I intended.

So you don't like the modern design. That's fine, I understand that; although from your post I don't understand why you don't like it. But I want you to understand what I said and not have you come to your own conclusions/interpretations of my words which, by the way, are entirely false and convoluted with the topic at hand.

[Yoko/葉子]

Some people hate it because they don't want to realize that it's the same damn character just slightly different externally. Just like all of us when we get older in real life.

[Mangoaxe5]

I personally think that the modern design looks cooler. Classic Sonic is too cute looking for my taste.

What annoys me are the fans who believe that if Sega goes back to the classic design it will magically save the franchise.

[iDEATH]

I think people are pretty much over the change now. At the time SA came out if was a big deal because the design change was such a big one, especially in terms of the promo art.

Now i think ol' green eyes is pretty much accepted.

I do still think the original design is better,but that's just personal preference and I don't dislike the modern look at all, especially with the unleashed/generations model.

[Mr. Taxi]

I'm not even goig to answer to this right now.

Some people hate it because they don't want to realize that it's the same damn character just slightly different externally. Just like all of us when we get older in real life.

It's almost that in my opinion too, but the problem is that it does't carry only the meaning of the character. It's the whole art and concept. Modern Sonic design carries an art atyle that also brings a lot of cnvoluted environments - it's not "oh the games are bad", but "oh the games aren't Sonic - they are random games with Sonic in it". They make him look displaced and, therefore, it's more likely for one to find it ugly.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Palas

[Cortez]

I kinda wish they'd just create a hybrid design using bits of both Classic and Modern Sonic and stick to it to give us the best of both worlds.

Although that then creates a third entity for us to argue about... Which is better Classic Sonic, Classic Modern Sonic or Modern Modern Sonic? Lol

[theoriginaltrio3210]

I kinda wish they'd just create a hybrid design using bits of both Classic and Modern Sonic and stick to it to give us the best of both worlds.

Although that then creates a third entity for us to argue about... Which is better Classic Sonic, Classic Modern Sonic or Modern Modern Sonic? Lol

Hehe I see your point there professor J

It has come to my attention that most of these arguements are truely based around personal preference, but in response to someone who posed this question, no, I am not entirely sure what the initial reaction was to Sonic's redesign, but from what I have gathered, most people did not give two damns about it. Please could someone verify what your personal reactions were to the redesign were in '98, it would be much appreciated

The association of classic equaling good and modern equaling medocricity is my personal reasoning behind this hatred. My concern for this however, stems from the vocal side of modern sonic's hate, the aforementioned boycott of Sonic 4:episode 1 mentioned by one of you lovely contributers to my topic coming to mind instantly.

In the spirit of off-topic conversation, the Mario's overalls were actually red and his shirt blue in the 80's, but I think since Super Mario World they have been blue overalls and red shirt. I agree whole-heartdly with the change of Mario being rather minimal due to the lack of change in the world he traversed as opposed to Sonic's drastic changes since Adventure, and I must admit I was very dissapointed with the choice of Sonic being on Earth (I also wanted to enter that big, psychedelic casino city in the background of Casino night or the trippy hills of Hill top zone, not the costal city paradise of station square , despite how appealing that sounds on paper). However, in defence of the change of setting, we have to realize that the West even spiced up sonic's continuity, and I have to say, it is VERY much different compared to the Japanese continuity. That is a story for another time. Thank you for all of your contributions.

[Frogging101]

I'm not even goig to answer to this right now.

You just did it again. You quoted someone and completely misrepresented their post by replacing it with something else/changing it. I know you can do better than that; I've seen your other posts.

[Mr. Taxi]

I'm not even going to try answer to this right now.

I lied.

Why did you cut off my sentence, as I explained what issues I was talking about with the rest of the sentence. Please don't twist my words. This isn't the first time you have been asked not to put words in other' people's mouths in this thread.

What do you mean, "don't twist my words"? You said those words yourself and even reinforced them later with something along the lines of "I find the hate petty and unjustified". Unless you are intending to explain me you were being incoherent, I could have quoted the whole post and still have highlited that part. Moreover, "explaining" doesn't make this statement any less abnoxious. It's like going "you suck! Oh, did I say 'you suck'? I meant you need improvement".

Where did you get this from? Neither I nor anyone else in this thread said such a thing, nor implied it even. Once again, please don't twist my words as I neither am making an argument nor saying an ignorant statement like that.

Here:

Because these people have issues, notably being intolerant to change and hanging way too tightly onto nostalgia. It's ridiculous when you think about it considering the Modern Sonic design has been around way longer that the Classic Sonic design (14 years compared to 7 years).

According to you, kt's not that you don't understand the reason behind it or is something you can't comprehend; it's something you know very well and find it stupid, irrational. Dismissing it as "blind nostalgia" and "intolerance".

I'm sorry, but what in the world are you talking about? Who said something about people being insane? As for the rest of your post, I'm not sure where you are getting at either.

I have a feeling you don't get my point because you don't want to. Here is what your train of thought seems like to me:

*People don't like the modern design because they can't accept changes

*But the change has been there for more time than the original

*So either that's not the problem or... people can't see what I see even though it's a mere question of counting.

*Therefore, people can't see what I see BECAUSE I CAN'T BE WRONG

More than that. Ever considered there might be a reason behind such case of blind, desperate nostalgia? I mean, if it's as you say (intolerance or difficulty to adapt to changes), there are only two possiilities: either the Classic Sonic design and era attracts people with questionable mental health regarding changes or it somehow stimulates such behaviour on them on his/its own. It's an endemic case, isn't it? So it's more likely to be "Classic Sonic's fault" than people's.

Where am I getting at? It's Sonic Team's fault. Hadn't they changed absolutely everything about the series - not talking about the design itself, it's just a part and a sympton of the problem - and fewer people would complain. It doesn't matter how gorgeous Sonic might be right now because it's just not recognized as "Sonic" by some people. And they are very unlikely to bring themselves to "accept" such changes because, you know, for them, it's not the same franchise anymore. Since it's marketed as being the same, they may EVEN keep on following it, but I think we've all seen the contempt this "it is, but it's not" conflict brings.

You just did it again. You quoted someone and completely misrepresented their post by replacing it with something else/changing it. I know you can do better than that; I've seen your other posts.

So suddenly going "I have no idea what you are talking about and have no intention of trying to know" is not denial?

Anyway, I'm sorry. It just annoys me when one side of the debate simply wants to believe there is no reasoning in the opponent.

EDIT: Now, as to why can't somebody accept that both Sonics are the same Sonic? I shrug to this matter. Would need to research. Even when people like the same things, they like them for different reasons. My story with the franchise is similar to Sonikku_Kiah's. I used to play Sonic 1 on Master System and watch AoStH and SatAM, but only until I was 7 or something. Then I found out about Sonic Heroes and had no idea of what was that - I didn't even know Knuckles existed. At first, I was just bewildered; no judgements. I started disliking the path the series took only after I started looking for it on the Internet and playing the games.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Palas

[Nepenthe]

Palas, you've construed nostalgia and by extension inability to adapt and irrationality- which may very well be characteristics worthy of criticism but are nonetheless indicative of the normal human experience- with insanity and serious mental incapability which has far deeper implications, in turn taking Sonniku's post far more personally than need be and subsequently you're still arguing against a straw man. Sonniku's claim about the length of time each design was employed is irrelevant to the point she was making other than to further highlight the ridiculousness of the kind of intolerant nostalgia she was talking about. Her argument doesn't hinge on this portion, so to set up her argument as such creates another straw man. Sonniku has also made no intention of not wanting to understand you known, but has so far been defending herself instead from what she sees as misrepresentation. These are not directly correlating behaviors, so again, you've made another strawman.

I am certain you have a point to make that would be far more substantial to talk about than people pointing fallacies out in your thoughts, but suffice to say it's being completely tainted and overshadowed by how personally you've taken her post and have decided to respond to her. It's also not helping in trying to take down the stereotype she's set up about ardent classic Sonic fans being irrational and petty towards the changes of the newer games. :/

Edited October 26, 2012 by Meito Anizawa

[Mr. Taxi]

if you say so, I'll have to concede. I've crossed the line and more than once. Let us start over, now discussing more lightheartedly. I apologize and intend to show my point in a more respectable manner.

Very well. Since we are talking about strawman... well, I think this is convenient, because that is how I see the way she put the situation. It's very easy to say a certain behaviour is caused by nostalgia, therefore invalid. But if we analyze the case further, we will see that there is no direct causation between nostalgia and inability to accept the current conditions, nor there is inherent evil in not accepting them. Normally, nostalgia leads to resignation, not uprising. So, actually, I think it's a little bit of a fallacy of accident rather than a strawman.

In any case, it comes down to what I said earlier: nostalgia may not be much of a reason to support something, but the fact that this "something" is able to generate nostalgia is still something to be considered. And, even then, that's not the main reason why one wouldn't like the modern design.

I hope I am being less of a jerk now.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Palas

[Bright Eyes]

if you say so, I'll have to concede. I've crossed the line and more than once. Let us start over, now discussing more lightheartedly. I apologize and intend to show my point in a more respectable manner.

Very well. Since we are talking about strawman... well, I think this is convenient, because that is how I see the way she put the situation. It's very easy to say a certain behaviour is caused by nostalgia, therefore invalid. But if we analyze the case further, we will see that there is no direct causation between nostalgia and inability to accept the current conditions. Normally, nostalgia leads to resignation, not uprising. So, actually, I think it's a little bit of a fallacy of accident rather than a strawman.

In any case, it comes down to what I said earlier: nostalgia may not be much of a reason to support something, but the fact that this "something" is able to generate nostalgia is still something to be considered. And, even then, that's not the main reason why one wouldn't like the modern design.

I hope I am being less of a jerk now.

Oh Palas! You are such a loveable character really!

[Nepenthe]

Your arguments don't really support your conclusion. A person need not "uprise" in order to be resistant to a current state of being; merely disliking something is being resistant to it to some degree. Besides, how is "uprising" even being defined: taking physical action against the things with which a person finds wrong or mere complaining on the Internet? And how is uprising mutually exclusive from resignation? It's very common to speak out against things with which a person may very well know they can't change in a timely manner, if at all, so ultimately I don't see how uprising is even relevant.

Anyway, nostalgia holds nothing inherent onto itself that is worthy of taking into consideration on its own. Nostalgia is defined only as a romanticizing of the past, which is ultimately a highly subjective interpretation of the state of things in the past clouded by a multitude of factors: lack of hindsight, ignorance, lower standards, irrationality, etc.. The 50s era generates nostalgia all the time despite its significantly higher crime rates, blatant racial inequality, and significant lack of technological advancements compared to today, therefore the nostalgia of the era is undermined by the actual truths of what was going on. I don't say this of course to compare Classic Sonic to lynching, but rather to make the point that nostalgia or the fact that Classic Sonic elicits it in some people means nothing without further consideration.

But personally, I'm not nostalgic for Classic Sonic; I always say it's hard to be nostalgic for something that never actually left in the first place. Just because Sonic's design has changed in the games does not mean I was never privy to a consistent echo chamber on the Internet from fans about its superiority over the modern design or the overwhelming use of the design in popular culture and merchandising. Classic Sonic has always been around in some form, and subsequently the design's placing on a pedestal has made me completely apathetic to it with the exception of his performance in Generations. I'm just really tired of it, to be honest.

[Ferno]

I like both, but I like modern more, as that was the one I was generally exposed to first, and it wasn't until some web browsing in 2003 or so that I found out that Sonic even had a design change. As for the change itself, I know that some people are still upset about it, but honestly, Sonic's design kinda needed to change with the times and with technology.

Classic and Modern Sonic both represent different things, different time periods, and different game mechanics, as well as technical things that required a design change to begin with.

Classic Sonic was as round as he was because back then, rolling was the big thing in the gameplay. These days, Sonic's slimmer, lankier, and less circular in shape, because nowadays, running is the big thing. Another thing, as Generations showed, Classic Sonic doesn't completely "look right" in a 3D environment. During the teaser trailer, we all remember how Classic's legs would sorta be "cheated" onto his stomach area during certain frames to make his running animations. For Modern Sonic this isn't an issue because he has more of a pelvic region that I assume was added back in 1998 specifically for this reason.

Also this:

Sonic's in-game animations.

Certain things like the wheel-of-feet were made for a 2D perspective. in 3D, stuff like that doesn't quite look right:

It becomes clear that for 3D, Sonic needed to become something like this:

He needed things like a bigger head, (spines included) more exaggerated limbs, and more exaggerated animations, so that Sonic himself was easier to see as you played a stage, as well as being more fun to look at as well.

I still like both, but there were reasons for the change.

[Mr. Taxi]

Your arguments don't really support your conclusion. A person need not "uprise" in order to be resistant to a current state of being; merely disliking something is being resistant to it to some degree. Besides, how is "uprising" even being defined: taking physical action against the things with which a person finds wrong or mere complaining on the Internet? And how is uprising mutually exclusive from resignation? It's very common to speak out against things with which a person may very well know they can't change in a timely manner, if at all, so ultimately I don't see how uprising is even relevant.

Remember~! English is not my first language. Expressing myself is not my specialty. So uprising is not the right word. How about... "actively coming to the internet and voicing negative opinions towards a state of affairs, even though it does not directly affect one's life in any way, instead of simply dropping the interest and letting go completely, more specifically not looking after any interest in the franchise or any of its merchandises"?

In this sense, even if people are being driven by nostalgia alone, there is something weird with the fact that they just won't let go. This is the piece missing in the jigsaw puzzle and this is where I'd like to put a giant "SONIC TEAM'S FAULT FOR CHANGING CORE ELEMENTS TO THE SERIES BUT STILL MARKETING IT AS THE EXACT SAME FRANCHISE, UNLIKE WHAT HAPPENED TO MEGAMAN REGARDING MEGAMAN X OR SHINING FORCE TO SHINING FORCE EXA"... because that's what seems to fit.

(In other words, Sonic's design is a mere scapegoat as well as the first parameter we have to evaluate how Sonic's very concept has changed)

Anyway, nostalgia holds nothing inherent onto itself that is worthy of taking into consideration on its own. Nostalgia is defined only as a romanticizing of the past, which is ultimately a highly subjective interpretation of the state of things in the past clouded by a multitude of factors: lack of hindsight, ignorance, lower standards, irrationality, etc.. The 50s era generates nostalgia all the time despite its significantly higher crime rates, blatant racial inequality, and significant lack of technological advancements compared to today, therefore the nostalgia of the era is undermined by the actual truths of what was going on. I don't say this of course to compare Classic Sonic to lynching, but rather to make the point that nostalgia or the fact that Classic Sonic elicits it in some people means nothing without further consideration.

Individually, nostalgia doesn't hold anything indeed. The feeling one has towards a decade can't matter, even moreso if it's not true. But the object of nostalgia is what's worth investigating. Why is it that people worship the 50's? Sure, there is that theory in political science about how people for some reason always like the past better. Well, alright. But even then, the object of unearned affection needs some key to trigger this nostalgia.

What in classic Sonic makes people feel nostalgia over it? And what has been lost? The 50's people worship is not a period of time: it's a cultural mark. The cars, the dress code, the music. It's not the 50's itself but the aura built on it: a specific set of highly attractive standards about life and aesthetics, nothing more. Is nostalgia irrational? Yes. Is it unjustified? Hell no. Nostalgia is not born from thin air and it's worth taking into account why it happens.

But personally, I'm not nostalgic for Classic Sonic; I always say it's hard to be nostalgic for something that never actually left in the first place. Just because Sonic's design has changed in the games does not mean I was never privy to a consistent echo chamber on the Internet from fans about its superiority over the modern design or the overwhelming use of the design in popular culture and merchandising. Classic Sonic has always been around in some form, and subsequently the design's placing on a pedestal has made me completely apathetic to it with the exception of his performance in Generations. I'm just really tired of it, to be honest.

That's great. I have to agree with you. You know, the fact that Classic Sonic has always been there is actually part of the problem. It's there, but it's not quite there. A Green Hill remix here (and there and everywhere, sadly), a cameo there... but not full classic Sonic and all it means. It's as if we were all seeing a zombie. By the way, distinguishing "classic" and "modern" Sonic as two separate entities is just further proof that the devs have acknowledged that there is a huge difference within the same franchise, and that can't be helped.

[Sean]

I'm not even goig to answer to this right now.

[Jack / Joker]

I love the Modern design and the Classic one has never really been my cup of tea, it's like the whole Robotnik vs. Eggman debacle, they're both the same motherfucker, and that's what counts to me. Sure Sonic has a few eyesight troubles, and he needs to put in some green contacts now and again, well I say good on him for being such a dapper bloke who cares deeply about his looks and what not. Big up on that modest lad.

...what was I talking about again?

Edited October 26, 2012 by -The Joker-

[Chris]

Alright guys, I've rolled back the topic slightly to encourage actual discussion instead of flinging poop. Consider it a nudge in the right direction, yeah?

[Nepenthe]

Remember~! English is not my first language. Expressing myself is not my specialty. So uprising is not the right word. How about... "actively coming to the internet and voicing negative opinions towards a state of affairs, even though it does not directly affect one's life in any way, instead of simply dropping the interest and letting go completely, more specifically not looking after any interest in the franchise or any of its merchandises"?

In this sense, even if people are being driven by nostalgia alone, there is something weird with the fact that they just won't let go. This is the piece missing in the jigsaw puzzle and this is where I'd like to put a giant "SONIC TEAM'S FAULT FOR CHANGING CORE ELEMENTS TO THE SERIES BUT STILL MARKETING IT AS THE EXACT SAME FRANCHISE, UNLIKE WHAT HAPPENED TO MEGAMAN REGARDING MEGAMAN X OR SHINING FORCE TO SHINING FORCE EXA"... because that's what seems to fit.

(In other words, Sonic's design is a mere scapegoat as well as the first parameter we have to evaluate how Sonic's very concept has changed)

The dissonance of someone continuing to complain about something with which they believe has been fundamentally changed to the point that it's not the same anymore is not the fault of the producer of that thing, but rather the person who takes it upon themselves to continue to be miserable, because they have a choice to stop taking interest. Sonic Team is not obligated to cater to cynical people if they're still giving them money for products with which they find significant problems with. They really don't care that you bought Generations just to find out how bad Classic Sonic plays and then rant about it online; just that you bought it. It's also not entirely weird for people to do this on the Internet when you take into account basic human behavior: we like controversy, we like drama, we like complaining, we like having vehicles with which to vent and "take a stand," we like being heard and feel like we're making a difference with our complaining. There's nothing really weird about it from basic observations.

Individually, nostalgia doesn't hold anything indeed. The feeling one has towards a decade can't matter, even moreso if it's not true. But the object of nostalgia is what's worth investigating. Why is it that people worship the 50's? Sure, there is that theory in political science about how people for some reason always like the past better. Well, alright. But even then, the object of unearned affection needs some key to trigger this nostalgia.

What in classic Sonic makes people feel nostalgia over it? And what has been lost? The 50's people worship is not a period of time: it's a cultural mark. The cars, the dress code, the music. It's not the 50's itself but the aura built on it: a specific set of highly attractive standards about life and aesthetics, nothing more. Is nostalgia irrational? Yes. Is it unjustified? Hell no. Nostalgia is not born from thin air and it's worth taking into account why it happens.

Nostalgia may not always be unjustified, but there's no reason it cannot be. And note, I do not argue unjustified to mean that the feeling manifests out of thin air, but that the justifications for it are unsound or poorly supported. Just because someone is nostalgic for Jem and the Holograms and uses that nostalgia as the basis to deride Adventure Time does not mean that Adventure Time is a worse show than Jem or that the nostalgia in question is important to note in the criticism of Adventure Time. It could very well mean that the person in question just has no taste or foresight whatsoever and thus their nostalgia and any arguments stemming from it are unjustified.

That's great. I have to agree with you. You know, the fact that Classic Sonic has always been there is actually part of the problem. It's there, but it's not quite there. A Green Hill remix here (and there and everywhere, sadly), a cameo there... but not full classic Sonic and all it means. It's as if we were all seeing a zombie. By the way, distinguishing "classic" and "modern" Sonic as two separate entities is just further proof that the devs have acknowledged that there is a huge difference within the same franchise, and that can't be helped.

I disagree; Classic Sonic is there, insofar as the design goes. Merchandise, pop culture, the aforementioned echo chamber on the Internet I mentioned, constant re-releases of the same five classic games of which I've played millions of times and yet get no increasing satisfaction from doing so. I literally cannot get away from Classic Sonic if I'm to continue interacting with the Sonic community, and this subsequent over-saturation of the design has resulted in burn-out; I just don't care to see Classic Sonic anymore and won't lose sleep if he's never seen again in the games.

Sonic Team also recognizing the designs as two separate entities, and thus actually significantly legitimizing the people who had a problem with the modern design, was a mistake of the highest order, one of the biggest they could've ever made in their attempt to solidify the franchise from now going forward.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Meito Anizawa

[Mr. Taxi]

The dissonance of someone continuing to complain about something with which they believe has been fundamentally changed to the point that it's not the same anymore is not the fault of the producer of that thing, but rather the person who takes it upon themselves to continue to be miserable, because they have a choice to stop taking interest. Sonic Team is not obligated to cater to cynical people if they're still giving them money for products with which they find significant problems with. They really don't care that you bought Generations just to find out how bad Classic Sonic plays and then rant about it online; just that you bought it. It's also not entirely weird for people to do this on the Internet when you take into account basic human behavior: we like controversy, we like drama, we like complaining, we like having vehicles with which to vent and "take a stand," we like being heard and feel like we're making a difference with our complaining. There's nothing really weird about it from basic observations.

Hey now, I think this is being my turn of being misinterpreted. I know Sonic Team couldn't care less about why you decided to spend money on them; I know Sonic Team is not obligated to cater to anyone but SEGA high-ups (side note: and, even then, I believe they are now in a very funny situation in which they both command and obey. Stuff for another thread~!). But the thing is: why is it that these people chose not to stop following? I can't help but believe this is due to what you said up there: they keep on merchandising classic Sonic in some shape or form. Human nature is not enough for me.

Well, if we can draw some elements from classic Sonic, important or not, we'll see that they've used them in dribs and drabs. 2D gameplay; cartoonish visuals; "the long-awaited sequel" etc. But never fully. They believe this is to bring as many different kinds of fans and is the whole concept behind Sonic 4: they tried to cater to everyone. That might somehow work commercially (even if its effect will fade over time), but, needless to say, the divergence of opinions will be impossible to avoid.

Nostalgia may not always be unjustified, but there's no reason it cannot be. And note, I do not argue unjustified to mean that the feeling manifests out of thin air, but that the justifications for it are unsound or poorly supported. Just because someone is nostalgic for Jem and the Holograms and uses that nostalgia as the basis to deride Adventure Time does not mean that Adventure Time is a worse show than Jem or that the nostalgia in question is important to note in the criticism of Adventure Time. It could very well mean that the person in question just has no taste or foresight whatsoever and thus their nostalgia and any arguments stemming from it are unjustified.

That was not a very sound statement, senhorita. Before I proceed, let me talk a little about my own opinion: I'm not even saying the modern design is worse than the classic one, for instance. I prefer the classic one, yes, even though I wouldn't say it's because of nostalgia, since I... well, I didn't know what a loop was until I was 15 or so. My point is not "classic is better", it's "it's not absurd to hate".

Now. Once again. It's not about the people who feel nostalgia, it's about the object of the nostalgia. No matter how poor one's reasons may be to adore Jem and the Holograms (and that much is very personal, yes). What matters is the social part of it. If I'm here saying that the modern design itself is not the problem, it's only natural that I should point this out. It's not even "modern games are bad, therefore the design is bad; classic games are good, therefore the desig is good". It's perfectly possible for one to experience the same phenomenon having played only Sonic Spinball. The trick is classic Sonic's "aura". No matter how detached from reality one's reasons might be to feel nostalgia over Classic Sonic, what matters is the whole amount of elements sorrounding him that don't appear anymore.

Hey, I don't even need to go as far as Classic vs. Modern. Adventure fans will often claim the Boost is the root of all evil, while Adventure Sonic played nice and swiftly. But the Boost is only a scapegoat - what truly matters is the whole concept around, how the Chao garden is gone, the multiple playstyles... everything.

I disagree; Classic Sonic is there, insofar as the design goes. Merchandise, pop culture, the aforementioned echo chamber on the Internet I mentioned, constant re-releases of the same five classic games of which I've played millions of times and yet get no increasing satisfaction from doing so. I literally cannot get away from Classic Sonic if I'm to continue interacting with the Sonic community, and this subsequent over-saturation of the design has resulted in burn-out; I just don't care to see Classic Sonic anymore and won't lose sleep if he's never seen again in the games.

Sonic Team also recognizing the designs as two separate entities, and thus actually significantly legitimizing the people who had a problem with the modern design, was a mistake of the highest order, one of the biggest they could've ever made in their attempt to solidify the franchise from now going forward.

...Then you don't disagree, because that's what I said. EDIT: It even compliments what I said earlier in this post. These scattered elements, made to cater to everyone, eventually end up displeasing everyone. But it's a marketing strategy. And yes, it was a horrible mistake to acknowledge was already there - which is why it's different from Megaman to Megaman X. But the thing is - it was already there and couldn't be helped. All they did was to recognize. Not saying it was the best choice.

EDIT [2]: Oh, I'm really pushing the topic towards that of essence, aren't I? Well, what can I do?

Edited October 26, 2012 by Palas

[SpencertheCat]

When did this thread turn into Psychology?

Not trying to back seat moderate but this thread is starting to sound like a really complicated argument.

Either you like Classic Sonic or you don't.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

When did this thread turn into Psychology?

At the point nostalgia was thrown into the equation over the dislike of Modern Sonic.

Edited October 26, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

If I sat down and thought for a second, I could get all philosophical too, but meh...too lazy.

I admit Nostalgia plays a massive role in people's preferences, it's natural for everybody to remember things more fondly in their youth because of how idealized you felt about everything back then, and it's a lot harder to enjoy something to that extent when you're older than when you're younger as well. I mean weren't the happiest moments in your life when you were a lad without a care in the world, as opposed to when you're a young adult who analyzes and can see thing more clearly.

[Nepenthe]

Hey now, I think this is being my turn of being misinterpreted. I know Sonic Team couldn't care less about why you decided to spend money on them; I know Sonic Team is not obligated to cater to anyone but SEGA high-ups (side note: and, even then, I believe they are now in a very funny situation in which they both command and obey. Stuff for another thread~!). But the thing is: why is it that these people chose not to stop following? I can't help but believe this is due to what you said up there: they keep on merchandising classic Sonic in some shape or form. Human nature is not enough for me.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Meito Anizawa

[Kuzu]

The happiest moments of my life in regards to entertainment aren't relegated to my childhood. The feelings of fun and engagement I had and still maintain for Unleashed are the same ones I had for Adventure which in turn are the same ones I had for Sonic 3. My heightened ability to criticize art may not lend itself to complete bliss if I feel something is off enough with a game to warrant notice, but I had this capability even when I was younger to some degree; I simply didn't enjoy every game I played. At the same time, the ability to look at art more objectively also allows me to enjoy things on a level I could not possibly experience beforehand, which in turn makes me even more emotional and attached to the things I like now (for example, my 5 year old self didn't give a shit that Mufasa died; now I can't watch that stupid scene without tearing up because I can rationalize the scene better). So I personally don't think I'm less happy with entertainment than I used to be.

I didn't say all people are like that, but most are. Growing up does help us rationalize things better, but being young mostly means living in bliss, and some people find more enjoyment out of that.