Dragon Ball (Warning: Untagged Spoilers)

[Kuzu]

24 minutes ago, サイヤ人の王子 said:

It's definitely contradictory. Are we expected to believe Boohan conveniently absorbed Vegetto just before his fusion was supposed to end? Also, why didn't Elder Kaioshin know of this weakness, and if he did, why didn't he inform Goku of it? Say Vegetto's fight with Boohan lasted for over an hour, they would have been screwed. A lot of people rationalized Vegetto's defusion inside Boo by pointing out that Boo and the Kaioshin don't jive. Dabura points out earlier in the Majin Boo arc that Kaioshin's and Kibito's energy couldn't be used to revive Boo.

And are you willing to believe that Vegetto just defuses simply because he's inside Buu, just because....? See what I mean, it honestly depends on what you're willing to believe. Everything you pointed out isn't a contradiction, but more writing convenience. Is it good writing? Not at all, but it's not contradictory like you claim it is. 

[Ratcicle King]

Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

And are you willing to believe that Vegetto just defuses simply because he's inside Buu, just because....? See what I mean, it honestly depends on what you're willing to believe. Everything you pointed out isn't a contradiction, but more writing convenience. Is it good writing? Not at all, but it's not contradictory like you claim it is. 

Buu is a being of magic, the entire problem to kill him is that, he's too powerful because of his magic, he can warp reality, he can copy moves, he can absorb people and constantly regenerate not needing to obey any sense or logic for his biology.

DBZ and even Super at first made it look like the Potara cannot be separated by normal means, however, being a fusion produced by magic, other magical forces can fuck it up, so once they were inside a being that is pure magic power, said power messed up the earring's power and defused them, same with the Dragonballs cancelling Kibito Kai's fusion.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

24 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

  Hide contents

Well let's be perfectly fair, this retcon doesn't contradict anything, even if it was just used as a convenient way to get Vegetto out of the way. Because let's be honest, Vegetto is TOO broken, if the permanent effect of the Potara was still in effect, then there'd basically be no tension at all. 

 

Hell, I think everyone is forgetting they bullshitted an excuse for him to defuse the first time for the exact same reason, at least this time they bothered to explain it.

 

Nope, it really is contradictory. I haven't seen the entirety of the Buu Saga, but I know for a fact that:

Spoiler

They made a huge deal out of the fusion earrings because when it was used by two fighters, they were fused together for good. Even Goku says this to Vegeta "Once we join our bodies join, we will be stuck in that form forever " "IMBECILE, YOU TELL ME NOW, DON'T YOU THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT INFORMATION?!". Literally the only reason they were defused is like here, Toriyama wrote himself into a complete wall because he didn't want to keep this OP fighter around, but also didn't want to end the arc there and then, so decided to just write a Deus Ex Machina to explain away the fusion. 

The problem is that Vegito has pretty much been devalued into a half-ass Gogeta clone, and now has the exact same limits as Gogeta as well. That also doesn't remove the fact that they've now just removed the only excuse not to go and abuse the fusion now every single time a massive threat pops up. Originally, they couldn't because they were thrown into a corner by Buu and finally decided to put their differences aside for the benefit of their friends. That was the only reason they fused. They got lucky to get unfused previously, and that was the reason for not fusing again, they didn't want to share a body, and they had managed to get inside of Buu and attack him from the inside, having dealt with the bigger threat of Buuhan.

Now, what's going to stop them from doing this every single time there's a huge threat? They're obviously going to have a villain that tops Black's power, so what's going to stop Goku and Vegeta from just deciding every time they're in huge trouble, "fusion?" "fusion." I mean after all, the biggest weakness of the form is now gone. That two friendly rivals who hate having to rely on help would be forced together as one being forever. Why should it matter now? It's only an hour long fusion, so why should it matter if they're fused together now?

 

 

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

And are you willing to believe that Vegetto just defuses simply because he's inside Buu, just because....? See what I mean, it honestly depends on what you're willing to believe. Everything you pointed out isn't a contradiction, but more writing convenience. Is it good writing? Not at all, but it's not contradictory like you claim it is. 

I mean, I would be. No explanation is better than the one we got, but I don't think it's for no reason, as I clearly outlined. Boo and the Kaioshin don't jive, so I assume that the atmosphere within Boo negated the Potara because they were made with Kaioshin magic. Regarding consistency, I don't see how this limitation isn't a contradiction. If this new rule doesn't jive with how the fight progressed between Boohan and Vegetto, how could it not be a contradiction? Surely the battle between Vegetto and Boohan didn't last for just under an hour.

[Kuzu]

17 minutes ago, Ratcicle King said:

Buu is a being of magic, the entire problem to kill him is that, he's too powerful because of his magic, he can warp reality, he can copy moves, he can absorb people and constantly regenerate not needing to obey any sense or logic for his biology.

DBZ and even Super at first made it look like the Potara cannot be separated by normal means, however, being a fusion produced by magic, other magical forces can fuck it up, so once they were inside a being that is pure magic power, said power messed up the earring's power and defused them, same with the Dragonballs cancelling Kibito Kai's fusion.

This is never explained within the series itself, so it's really no better than someone's headcanon. The truth is, there was no actual explanation for why Vegetto defused when he went in Buu, it just sort of happened and they went along with it and they never focused on it until now.

13 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Nope, it really is contradictory. I haven't seen the entirety of the Buu Saga, but I know for a fact that:

  Hide contents

They made a huge deal out of the fusion earrings because when it was used by two fighters, they were fused together for good. Even Goku says this to Vegeta "Once we join our bodies join, we will be stuck in that form forever " "IMBECILE, YOU TELL ME NOW, DON'T YOU THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT INFORMATION?!". Literally the only reason they were defused is like here, Toriyama wrote himself into a complete wall because he didn't want to keep this OP fighter around, but also didn't want to end the arc there and then, so decided to just write a Deus Ex Machina to explain away the fusion. 

The problem is that Vegito has pretty much been devalued into a half-ass Gogeta clone, and now has the exact same limits as Gogeta as well. That also doesn't remove the fact that they've now just removed the only excuse not to go and abuse the fusion now every single time a massive threat pops up. Originally, they couldn't because they were thrown into a corner by Buu and finally decided to put their differences aside for the benefit of their friends. That was the only reason they fused. They got lucky to get unfused previously, and that was the reason for not fusing again, they didn't want to share a body, and they had managed to get inside of Buu and attack him from the inside, having dealt with the bigger threat of Buuhan.

Now, what's going to stop them from doing this every single time there's a huge threat? They're obviously going to have a villain that tops Black's power, so what's going to stop Goku and Vegeta from just deciding every time they're in huge trouble, "fusion?" "fusion." I mean after all, the biggest weakness of the form is now gone. That two friendly rivals who hate having to rely on help would be forced together as one being forever. Why should it matter now? It's only an hour long fusion, so why should it matter if they're fused together now?

 

Two things.

First, Vegetto and Gogeta are, thematically, the same character. They serve the same purpose for both mediums they exist, to force an opponent so powerful that two rivals who can't stand working together are forced to combine their strengths to save the day. That's it. So how the hell is Vegetto a "half assed Gogeta clone" If they did the dance and formed Gogeta, the entire result of this episode would play out exactly the same. I mean sure, it removes the Potara retcon, but it hardly changes the outcome in any significant way. 

Secondly, the reason why they won't do this anymore is why I already explained. Goku and Vegeta hate working together, and will only do so when given absolutely no other option. Even if they know the result isn't permanent, it's more of a matter of pride for them to fight using their own strength. Yes, they'd rather get the crap beat out of them before fusing. Combine that with how much power Vegetto burns through as SSJB now, then you have an even further justification for no more fusion.

Like, I don't get why this retcon pisses people off so much. it doesn't contradict anything, and Vegetto is still hilariously broken but with an actual weakness and a reason why Goku and Vegeta can't just fuse and solve all of their problems beyond just being stubborn dickheads.

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, サイヤ人の王子 said:

I mean, I would be. No explanation is better than the one we got, but I don't think it's for no reason, as I clearly outlined. Boo and the Kaioshin don't jive, so I assume that the atmosphere within Boo negated the Potara because they were made with Kaioshin magic. Regarding consistency, I don't see how this limitation isn't a contradiction. If this new rule doesn't jive with how the fight progressed between Boohan and Vegetto, how could it not be a contradiction? Surely the battle between Vegetto and Boohan didn't last for just under an hour.

But you're still assuming, there's nothing concrete about it, so you can't just force your own headcanon just because you don't agree with the explanation they gave.

As for the second point, you just answered your own question; there's nothing suggesting the Buu vs. Vegetto fight wasn't an hour. I mean sure, that's a flimsy fallacy and I will wholly admit to that, but it's not contradictory. It would be contractory if the fight had an explicit time limit, like say 15 minutes. Then yea, it'd be a blatant plothole. But no time was given, you can't say the fight didn't last an hour when there was no estimated time limit to begin with. 

If you really want me to grasp at straws, keep in mind this is the same series that stretched out "Five minutes" over about five episodes :V

 

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

Well, I can, since I don't really consider Super canon. That's the beauty of Dragon Ball's non-definitive canon.

Well, actually, if you read the manga, you'd be stretching it a great deal if you said the fight was anywhere close to an hour TBH. That battle between Vegetto and Boohan is incredibly short. Only 2 chapters long in fact.

 

Wouldn't that only strengthen my assertion that the battle between Boohan and Vegetto is far less than an hour? The idea seemed to be that Goku and Freeza were so fast that they could squeeze all of that fighting into a 5 minute period. This is 2 chapters vs 8 chapters.

[DiamondX]

The retcon is really stupid and has no reason to exist.

In the Universe Arc we had Supreme Kai and Kibito debuse by using the Dragon Balls.

Plus, like Ryan said, now they will use the Potaras for possibly every villian.

Also, why was the life risking attack a 10 second SSBKK?

I still enjoy this arc and its in my top 5.

 

I should've known they showed Vegetto like it was nothing for all the preview for a reason.

[Pawn]

 

I'm not too bothered about them retconning Potara fusion, but I wonder why the restriction was even stated in the first place when SSB ended up making it unstable anyway. What I am confused about is Trunks' little victory there. This could have been set up better had he learned (or hell, had he even seen) the Spirit Bomb technique and if Vegito had caused more substantial damage to Zamasu beforehand, but as it stands it just seems unbelievable that he could take down the fused god so easily. Goku and Vegeta could have at least managed to transform one more time and given him SSB energy... yet somehow all he needed was their reserves plus the ki of a few humans?

[DiamondX]

As a break from Super, LOG4 was announced:

https://m.facebook.com/WebfootGames/

It seems that fan choices will be important:

Either 3D or 2D.

Platofrms: Android and PC are the ones they want to make it on, but 3DS, iOS and Wii U are options.

 

Opinions?

 

[Marcello]

Just now, SS Blue Vegetto said:

As a break from Super, LOG4 was announced:

https://m.facebook.com/WebfootGames/

It seems that fan choices will be important:

Either 3D or 2D.

Platofrms: Android and PC are the ones they want to make it on, but 3DS, iOS and Wii U are options.

 

Opinions?

 

Those are just concepts. They want to make it, but that doesn't mean it's happening.

[DiamondX]

They seem pretty sure on it.

But lets hope it happens, right?

[-Robin-]

The main problem that comes with the Potara Fusion now being relegated to an hour time limit is that it removes so much tension and risk to the fusion that was present in Z.

 

Let's think about the Buu Saga for a quick second. Buu was successful in two-shotting a nerfed SSJ2 Gohan, surviving a sacrificial blast from a Vegeta leagues beyond SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell Saga, was able to fight Goku to a standstill while Goku was Super Saiyan 3, previously-established as the pinnacle of power a Saiyan could ever hope to reach, and then he transformed and got stronger than that. Super Buu was then able to treat a Super Saiyan 3 Fusion as little more than a warm-up in preparation for Mystic Gohan, for whom he revealed he can transform manually via absorption and usurped Gohan in strength once again. And then he absorbed Gohan himself for good measure in case the Potara Fusion was too much for him to handle. There was so much anguish and tension going on when realizing that Majin Buu simply refused to die, that Goku and Vegeta decided to give up their very selves for the Fusion, just so they could have one final shot at killing Buu and bringing everyone back.

 

It's not just that Vegetto is super strong and dominating that people like about him. It's also about how breaking this guy out required so much in the way of selflessness, desperation, and sacrifices, in a series where death is typically a revolving door, between the last and the proudest of the Saiyans when faced with an invincible threat.

 

Goku went Super Saiyan because it was thought Krillin couldn't come back to life. Gohan went Super Saiyan 2 partially because Android 16 couldn't come back. There was a totality present in both of those moments, just like there was with Vegetto's initial birth, and people fondly remember those moments partially because of those reasons.

 

We accepted the "Super Buu's magic nature" excuse because that meant it required a highly specific circumstance - one we did not know whether or not it could be replicated because we don't know if Majin Buu can perform the same absorption technique as Super Buu could - for a Potara Fusion to be undone, and so the finality of it could remain intact. Now, the "selflessness" and "sacrifices" aspect of the Potara Fusion has been completely retconned out for a longer time limit than a Fusion Dance has. That's what's got people annoyed. It's convenient for keeping the Z epilogue intact and consistent, but it gives up a chance for exploration on how to undo a Potara Fusion in an alternate way and coming to grips that a Potara Fusion may not ever be able to go away without incurring some great risk in some way.

[Yoko/葉子]

I know Trunks' new form was already named, according to the wikia, but I think Super Saiyan Demiblue might be a decent one for now.

[goku262002]

4 hours ago, Lime/Key said:

I know Trunks' new form was already named, according to the wikia, but I think Super Saiyan Demiblue might be a decent one for now.

First off don't believe anything on a wikia unless it has proper backup, the DB Wikia has 50/50 reliability.

Second, what? the form was named?! by who and when?! I didn't know we had lore behind it yet thought it was still surrounded in mystery.

[Ratcicle King]

3 minutes ago, goku262002 said:

First off don't believe anything on a wikia unless it has proper backup, the DB Wikia has 50/50 reliability.

Second, what? the form was named?! by who and when?! I didn't know we had lore behind it yet thought it was still surrounded in mystery.

The Wiki named it Super Trunks.

I THINK one of the episode titles called it that.

Honestly I'll just steal a joke from TFS and call it Maximum Oversaiyan until we have an actual name.

[Cassius]

I was hoping for Gogeta to appear in Super. You know, since he's noncanon and Akira Toriyama has the power to canonize him.

[AngelSlayerN64]

The next story arc of Dragon Ball Super has been revealed!
 

Spoiler

 

http://yonkouprod.com/dragon-ball-super-enter-new-story-arc-starting-december-18th/

Yamcha vs. Champa in baseball?! Sign me up! Also, Goku vs. Arale is gonna be lit!

 

 

 

 

[DiamondX]

That sounds so Dragon Ball-ish

Its perfect!

[AngelSlayerN64]

In regards to the "big mystery" for the next arc, I'm going to predict how the scenario will play out.

Spoiler

 

I believe that Hit was sent to kill Goku Black, but instead he confuses Goku Black for Goku. Hit would be going after the wrong person, thus leading to Goku telling him that he's the real deal and Goku Black is dead.

As for the identity of Hit's client, this person could be one of the top 5 fighters of all universes that we don't know about yet. It would make more sense for the "unknown individual" to be a brand new character.

Speaking of "top 5 fighters", we already know that the Daishinkan is one of them. Well, because there's a Daishinkan, it would make sense to have multiple Shinkans too. The Shinkan of North, Shinkan of South, Shinkan of West, and Shinkan of East. They all form the top 5 fighters of the multiverse, standing above the Gods of Destructions' attendants and below the Omni King.

Of course, all of this is mere speculation. This is the theory that I'm sticking with until proven otherwise.

 

 

[DiamondX]

Just saw this comment on Youtube:

''If you are both a sonic and db fan you'll get this Goku , vegeta and trunks = sonic , shadow and silver Zamasu = mephiles Black goku = Iblis Merged Zamasu = Solaris ''

[Ratcicle King]

...shit that actually kinda works

[goku262002]

*watches current episode of DB Super*

Holy shit, Timey Wimey nonsense gone to 1000 here. but the existence of Time Patroller/ Purple Hair Trunks makes sense now (sort of, doesn't confirm anything just theories are starting to make more sense).

I posted this theory on NeoGAF eariler, I'll repost it here:

Spoiler

Crazy theory time: Its a problem that any being from another era or timeline is in another era or timeline they are not supposed to be in, Xenoverse drills this into our heads. 2 trunks being in the same timeline is a HUGE timerift even if Zeno did it himself.

So, after Blue Hair F-Trunks and Mai arrive in the Purple Hair F-Trunk's timeline where the Black Arc didn't happen this would trigger the Supreme Kai of time to take action, and after gathering both Trunk's together and mom'ing them that time travel is a breaking the universe laws, what you did was bad bla bla bla, she purposes that 1 of the Trunk's becomes a time patroller seeing as shes below Zeno and can't reverse any decisions an Omni-King does she really can't send Blue Hair Trunks back to his own timeline but still can sort of heal the rift in time he created.

Purple Hair Trunks, knowing his alternate self is basically a demi-god at this point, decides it would be better if a stronger Trunks was left behind in his timeline where he can keep everyone safe and giving Blue Hair Trunks another chance at protecting the future. thus starting Purple Hair Trunk's adventure of being a time patroller.

As for F-mai, the 2 Mai's that exist wouldn't really act the same so its a good chance they would never see eachother in their natural lives and Purple Hair Trunks has no feelings for the Mai in his timeline since they never met. So long as the 2 never meet, I'm sure the SKoT would overlook it.

Crazy I know but its stable, sort of. don't know why I'm trying to make Xenoverse a thing but its been bugging me for a hell of a long time why TP Trunks just lives outside of time now and this arc end makes it sensible.

 

[Vec]

Spoiler

I didn't care about any time paradoxes after Gohan came to say goodbye to Trunks

 

[-Robin-]

Spoiler

 

What makes that scene with Trunks and Gohan so goddamn heart-rending is that Future Zen'o didn't just eliminate Earth or the solar system. He nuked everything. Including the Other World where Future Gohan's at. Future Gohan no longer exists.

 

Trunks was forced to migrate to another timeline. The original timeline, the one where Gohan trained and motivated Trunks, and gave his life for protecting, is now just a memory. A saved Earth was Future Gohan's legacy, and Trunks can't even have that now.

 

Earth's dead. Future Gohan is completely gone. Trunks is forced to go on knowing he failed in the greatest of ways. And yet here's Present Gohan, telling him to "Be well", and continue living and protecting. Future Earth may be no more, but Trunks is still Future Gohan's legacy, and nothing can take that from him.

 

God damn. 

 

 

[Ratcicle King]

Spoiler

I think Zen'o only nuked the Alternate Universe 7, or else Goku and Trunks wouldn't be able to reach him with the time machine, I mean, if he erased the timeline, it'd most likely be impossible for the time machine to reach him, as the place he's in DOESN'T EXIST anymore.

So I'd say only U7 got nuked, doesn't make it much better, but I think the Other World survived maybe? Unless it's not a shared universal thing but a thing every universe has.