Who else wants another game like Generations?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Wow, you guys sure make a lot of posts within 2 hours.

Anyway, as much as I loved Generations I'd like something new myself. Besides, despite it being a good Sonic game that garnered back some of Sonic's reputation, the game has so much wasted potential that I kinda wanted to strangle something everytime I keep thinking about what they could have done better. And that's more to do with them playing it safe mind you.

But if there is ONE thing I would like them to take cues from regarding Generations, it's revisiting old levels and mixing them with new ones. The later games would allow you to go to the newest stage they made while making a throwback stage like Sky Sanctuary.

Story could be summarized this way: After laying seige to a city with a flying battleship, Eggman is about to launch a massive fleet towards the various capitals of the world. Along the way, he tries to capture the floating island and use it as a mobile launch pad and refuel station for his fleets. Yadda yadda, and so on.

[azoo]

The game completely lacked a sense of immersion or involvement, relied way too much on nostalgia and throwbacks, kept you from playing as any other characters than the Sonics, and was harbor to 18 relatively short levels (minus the last two, which were just tedious), all thinly connected by a nearly nonexistent story.

And you know what? That's fine for an anniversary title! It did exactly what it was supposed to do: give a short and sweet experience that celebrated Sonic's legacy, even if in some places it did it sort of haphazardly..

But should there be another Sonic game in the same vein as it? Please no. I could always say they should keep the visual style or the gameplay style, but both of those were already in Unleashed & Colors, so why bother? I mean it's not like they're gonna take what they did gameplay-wise with Generations and regress anyways, since every game since Unleashed has been evolving off of that.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Azukara

[Tornado]

CD's got some dumb things (the time travel mechanics are screwed all to fuck, and a lot of levels are too chaotically designed to put Sonic's abilities to good use), but the core mechanics of a 2D Sonic are still there and still solid, and there are still a lot of opportunities to use them.

Other than rolling still actually being there, I can't think of a single thing that Sonic CD did that wasn't them (and I'm quoting because I'm too lazy to type something else out) "copying the abilities at the surface level without understanding why they existed or how they worked together" like you leveled at Generations. The spin dash operates differently. It has that weird ass aerial speed cap that you can't around like the one in Sonic 2 and 1. The camera doesn't follow the character the same way (Stardust Speedway can give you motion sickness from how much it jerks around). Spring and pinball/flipper physics don't seem to operate in a way that is consistent with themselves, let alone the other 3 games (the former working more like they did in the 8-bit games). And the really fast levels don't have any flow to the physics, with stuff like Stardust Speedway only seeming to work because they hacked it together specifically for that level rather than the physics working that way all the time. Then we have the level design.

In fact, the very first thing that came to my mind when I first played the original Generations demo all those months ago was that it had failings similar to those of Sonic CD, and I hope they fix it up for release (though they obviously did not). And while I understand the issues people have with Generations Classic, I'm not seeing how the similar problems CD has with superficially emulating what the 3 main games did makes it exempt from criticism.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Tornado

[Diogenes]

The spin dash operates differently.

Yeah, and I much prefer the more traditional Sonic 2 style spindash (one reason I prefer the recent remake over the original), but I don't think it works against the game's mechanics, it's just not as much fun as the other version. Plus, CD was basically inventing the spindash from scratch; it wasn't getting an existing thing wrong, it was trying to figure out how it should work in the first place.

It has that weird ass aerial speed cap that you can't around like the one in Sonic 2 and 1.

Nnnot sure what you're talking about here. It's been a while since I've played the original but I don't remember any weird air speed cap, at least not anything that 1 and 2 didn't also have.

The camera doesn't follow the character the same way (Stardust Speedway can give you motion sickness from how much it jerks around).

The only real difference is that CD tries to shift it forward when you're going fast, right? Well I think they had a good idea here, it makes sense to try and give the player a better view of what's ahead when they're moving as fast as Sonic moves. Personally I've never had any problem with motion sickness with it, but even if I did...well it's something that sounds good on paper but ends up not working out in practice.

Spring and pinball/flipper physics don't seem to operate in a way that is consistent with themselves, let alone the other 3 games (the former working more like they did in the 8-bit games).

The flippers are kind of wonky, but that's just an example of a level gimmick that isn't programmed especially well, nothing that goes against the concept. And I've never had any problem with the springs, and the only difference I know about is that CD's are more accurate in how they handle how fast diagonal springs launch you, so I don't know what you're getting at here.

And the really fast levels don't have any flow to the physics, with stuff like Stardust Speedway only seeming to work because they hacked it together specifically for that level rather than the physics working that way all the time.

Again, no idea what you're seeing here. The physics seem perfectly consistent throughout the game to me.

[Phos]

That's what I want too (original content).

But that's barely much different to Generations. It's just a visual change.

Why yes in fact, visual differences are the only things differentiating the modern levels.

And hey what's it matter that Classic Sonic's physics and level designs barely resemble the original? In fact, while we're at it, let's just use Super Mario Brothers physics. Remember, if you disagree, you're blinded by nostalgia.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Phos

[Sarah Jane Smith]

As much as I loved Gens, I wouldn't want to see a sequel too soon, otherwise Sonic might end up heading down the same road Mario did with NSMB.

If they did do a sequel though, they would need to actually harness all the potential that they missed in the first one. On top of that, instead of remaking mainstream levels, I would like to see something different for a change. Zones that aren't well-remembered but were still interesting; Bridge, Sunset Park, Gimmick Mt., Gigalopolis, et cetera. I know this won't happen, but a guy can dream.

What I'd prefer is them finally releasing actual DLC instead of a lame minigame, such as Wing Fortress and Ice Cap, and playable Tails and Knuckles. Not that they'll do it as it's been out forever...

[Chaos Warp]

He's become fucking Bubsy.

Okay that's a gross over-exaggeration and you know it. Bubsy is responsible for sub-par 2d games and one of the worst 3d platformers of all time. Okay you can make the Sonic 4 episodes and 06 parallel, but those are only 3 of Sonic's games out of many more and in Bubsy's case, those were his only 3 games.

[Diogenes]

Okay, it's an exaggeration, but the worst of Sonic is not that far off.

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

Would I want another Generations? That's a bit of a loaded question, so I'll try taking it in parts.

Would I like another Classic Sonic outing? Of course! I love the little guy, and there's lots to improve in the gameplay department. Seeing him race around places as fantastical as the reimagined Green Hill Zone would be lovely if done right. But ultimately, I can stand it if he won't make a comeback. Modern's just getting his act together, so I wouldn't want Sonic Team to throw all that out just to grab the overly-nostalgic fangirls/boys.

Would I want another game showcasing large portions of the supporting cast? Certainly, as long as they have a reason to stick around. There's a lot of interesting characters in Sonic's history, so finding one to put to good use shouldn't be tough. Iffy writing is the only thing that makes this option a bit uncomfortable to propose.

Would I want a game with lots of replay value, solid level design, and lots of bonus content? Who honestly wouldn't? Who am I to say "no, solid level design does not belong in a good Sonic game?" If this is what you meant by making this topic, then you're preaching to the choir, comrade.

Would I want a game with a paper-thin plot, shoddy writing, and thousands of missed opportunities? I would probably say no. If there's anything I'd rather the series did not take from Generations, it's this idea that plot is an inherently bad trait to platforming games and that Sonic should recycle boring, meaningless plots faster than New Super Mario. I'm not asking for Hamlet here, just a good, solid story that I'd want to come back to. Look at Zelda games, for example. They got plots so simple that describing them would take two sentences at most, and yet playing through that story was a very engaging, immersive, entertaining experience. I just ask that they try to get there.

Would I want another Modern Sonic game, seeing as how we've basically perfected the Unleashed formula now? Surprisingly, no. Generations played almost like closing the book to the Modern era, putting a new and improved Modern Sonic through all sorts of old haunts. It was like Sonic Team bid a long, heartwarming farewell to lots of beloved and not-so-beloved adventures, like this was one last go before we left to new horizons. This was perhaps the best Modern had to offer. And really, where do we go with Unleashedstyle from here? Stick in extra characters? Put in shields? I suppose that's possible, but it would just be extra polish on a game we've played three time already. I think it's time to test the waters and move forward. We've learned a lot from Unleashed, Colors, and Generations; now it's time to make those things feel like new again.

[Chaos Warp]

Okay, it's an exaggeration, but the worst of Sonic is not that far off.

Even 06 is a lot more playable then Bubsy 3d. At least you can fucking turn.

[Diogenes]

Even 06 is a lot more playable then Bubsy 3d. At least you can fucking turn.

Not in the mach speed sections.

[Chaos Warp]

Not in the mach speed sections.

Only 3 areas in the whole game, and in Bubsy 3d, the whole game you can't turn.............

[Tornado]

For the record, I legitimately prefer the way the first Bubsy title plays to Sonic CD and (to a lesser extent) Generations Classic.[/digging my own grave]

not sure what you're talking about here. It's been a while since I've played the original but I don't remember any weird air speed cap, at least not anything that 1 and 2 didn't also have.

Sonic 1 and 2 also had a speed cap, but it was easily gotten around if you just let off the D-Pad when jumping. Sonic CD's is, I'm pretty positive, an absolute cap in the air, though I'm having a lot of difficulty getting up to speed to find an example. I know it bothered the fuck out of me in the Metal Sonic fight but I'm so awful at regular Sonic CD that I can't build up the momentum to test it.

The only real difference is that CD tries to shift it forward when you're going fast, right?

Not that. How it is so tight to Sonic's location on screen. It's not like it in the remake (or, it's not when you use Sonic 2 physics), but the camera has no "give" whatsoever:

It never (or almost never) allows Sonic to leave that horizontal area (well, I'm ballparking) on the screen (unless he reaches the bottom of the level), and it becomes very disorienting on fast zones because it jerks around all over the place to keep him there. Sonic 1, 2 and 3 it allowed Sonic to get much closer to the edge of the screen when he was going fast through loops and whatnot.

And, since we are making them anyway, Sonic CD's camera reminds me a lot of the one in Bubsy II.

The flippers are kind of wonky, but that's just an example of a level gimmick that isn't programmed especially well, nothing that goes against the concept. And I've never had any problem with the springs, and the only difference I know about is that CD's are more accurate in how they handle how fast diagonal springs launch you, so I don't know what you're getting at here.

Sonic 1, 2 and 3 they had a variation roughly like this:

Where angle of incidence and speed when hitting the spring did have an effect on how far they shot you and at what angle, but it wasn't that much of one.

For example, here's what happened when I just walked into it from there:

And here is what happened when I want SPIN DASH MOTHERFUCKER! and went all out into it:

Sonic CD's deviation from where it shoots you is more like this:

And the speed and angle you hit it with have far more of an effect on where it sends you (with speed appearing to be the bigger factor), and you can't jump on them straight from above and have them send you in the same direction they would in Sonic 1/2/3.

Again, no idea what you're seeing here. The physics seem perfectly consistent throughout the game to me.

The S-curve thingies in Sonic CD don't work the same as the ones in Sonic 1/2/3.

(Those things).

In Sonic 1/2/3 they give you a small boost of speed, but momentum is what builds you up the rest of the way (which is why in some of them you can change direction). In Sonic CD, they instantly push you to full speed (which is another annoying thing about CD, but meh. Should have remembered it earlier.), but in Stardust Speedway (and as far as I can tell nowhere else) they keep recharging your speed to full speed until you are out of them so you are going full speed when you do get out of them.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Tornado

[Jack / Joker]

Classic Sonic wasn't a perfect translation of 20 year old physics... but it sure as hell was fun. I don't care what something plays like as long as I have fun playing it.

[Nepenthe]

For what little that was there in Generations, the production values were pretty good. Everything it offers is serviceable; pretty fun the first time through and it doesn't really lose momentum that fast, considering the whole hook of the thing propels you to want to get to the next big remake and see what Sonic Team did differently from the last time. But ultimately Generations offers nothing that makes it stand up on its own two feet. Speed Highway, Perfect Chaos, and ultimately Classic Sonic are there for nostalgia's sake, because these things are popular and only because they're popular, not as any significant narrative or design point within the game itself that help elevate the experience. If you took out the cut scenes, hubs, and missions and really structured it as a classic game, you wouldn't have a product that's all that different from the actual release, which makes it reek of lost potential.

So I really don't want another Generations. The whole "Hey, remember this?!" gimmick can only work so many times, and I would rather more proper, original and fleshed-out games to helm our anniversaries from now on.

[Scar]

Whilst I appreciate the stability Generations offered, I'd rather they didn't go down this road again, both in terms of "Trip down memory lane" gimmick and general gameplay.

They need to take more risks with development and create gameplay with generally better mechanics (ideally around the classic) which can be taken a step beyond what Generations acheived.

[Johnny Boy]

As amazing as Generations was I don't think I'd want to see another game with a concept like it. Hell Iizuka said himself that this is the only time Sonic Team would do something like this in order to keep the concept fresh.

[Diogenes]

Sonic 1 and 2 also had a speed cap, but it was easily gotten around if you just let off the D-Pad when jumping. Sonic CD's is, I'm pretty positive, an absolute cap in the air, though I'm having a lot of difficulty getting up to speed to find an example. I know it bothered the fuck out of me in the Metal Sonic fight but I'm so awful at regular Sonic CD that I can't build up the momentum to test it.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Diogenes

[Autosaver]

It's not all that great imo. Sure, I had lots of fun on my first playthrough, but it sure as hell wasn't worth 60 bucks.

THIS! The problem I have with Sonic games is that they're usually short on content and their resale values drop a week after launch. I never understood 2 weeks later the game is already at $19.99. I barely played the game when I had it and now it is barely worth anything?

The last game that truly gave me a ton of content was Sonic Colors. I thought the game had a lot of good ideas with the Wisps which gave the gave a little more replayability. I'd like to see Sonic Colors 2 on the Wii U. It is kind of funny because Sonic Colors had little 3D and was mostly 2D. I'd kill for a Classic Sonic styled (NOT FLOATY) 2D sections with some 3D Generations style sections. All with the love of Wisps and unique gimmicks. Oh, and NO rehashed environments please. I wish Generations had some sort of "time rift" zone that was totally unique to the game.

[Milo]

THIS! The problem I have with Sonic games is that they're usually short on content and their resale values drop a week after launch. I never understood 2 weeks later the game is already at $19.99. I barely played the game when I had it and now it is barely worth anything?

The last game that truly gave me a ton of content was Sonic Colors. I thought the game had a lot of good ideas with the Wisps which gave the gave a little more replayability. I'd like to see Sonic Colors 2 on the Wii U. It is kind of funny because Sonic Colors had little 3D and was mostly 2D. I'd kill for a Classic Sonic styled (NOT FLOATY) 2D sections with some 3D Generations style sections. All with the love of Wisps and unique gimmicks. Oh, and NO rehashed environments please. I wish Generations had some sort of "time rift" zone that was totally unique to the game.

I personally disagree about Colors-sure there's the Sonic Simulator/Chaos Emeralds to collect and that E.G.G. Trial thing in addition to the 50+ levels of the main six worlds; but once you beat the game 75%-100% there's really isn't any remaining lasting appeal to bring you back.

I thought Sonic Unleashed was the last Sonic game who's storyline did not take within 6 hours to beat, and found the spinoff Sonic games to have a longer lasting appeal that made me come back to play them even after beating the storyline/game 100%.

[Jimbo]

Would love to see DLC to Generations instead of another Generations type game.

Even though I love Generations, it was definitely not worth the $60. Should have waited a few weeks and grabbed it at $20, but oh well.

Edit: Off topic, but did they ever release the Casino Night DLC to people who didn't preorder from Gamestop?

Edited September 23, 2012 by o T a iIi lL sS

[UltDevilDoom]

I definetly like Generations, but I don't want another. Sega should move on to the next game.

[Megabox!]

Wasn't there a lot of content cut from the final built of Generations? I remember reading about one of the skills you can buy in the shop were the wisp power ups which could be used in ANY level. It certainly feels like a lot of stuff was cut out(especially the story)

[JBrewer]

I agree with the opening post in this topic completely. I think that Sonic Generations absolutely nailed it. A game that plays like Sonic Generations but set up like Sonic 3 & Knuckles (different playable characters like Tails and Knuckles with alternate routes and new areas to explore) would be amazing in my opinion.

[Kiah]

Do I want another game like Sonic Generations? Personally, no, I don't, and I'll explain why:

Don't get me wrong, Sonic Generations was truly delightful, filling me with awe and excitement. A lot of love was put into Sonic Generations, I could definitely sense that with all the fun that I had with it, even though it was short-lived. Yes, Sonic Generations was a fun game, but in the end it was disappointing.

One problem was with the story. The story, while it isn't the most important thing in a video game (I know that gameplay is the most important thing in a video game [i thought it in Sonic Generations was okay, nothing to complain about really besides the physics still needing work and the boost gameplay being old and stale]), was very shallow and left me scratching my head in wonder on more than one occasion. The unanswered questions and the blown opportunities for interaction between Sonic and his friends irritated me to no end.

I really disliked the way Sonic's friends were "used" in the game. Aside from the challenges/side missions they did nothing but stand around and talk way too much. Surely Sonic's friends can have better use than that! That and the game being so short left me wanting more, a lot more.

Another problem I thought was that the game was too dependent upon nostalgia. While it was nice to see Classic Sonic in Sonic Generations I hope that was the last of him and I never want to see him again in a Sonic game in the future. Nostalgia is a powerful thing, but it's best at times to move on and move forward. We can't live off of nostalgia forever...The modern gameplay has much to offer...if only the Sonic Team would get their act together and execute it properly...the results would be amazing!

There just seemed like much was missing from Sonic Generations with selling itself short with content amid a ton of blown potential. The last thing I want to see is another Sonic main series game released that appears to be rushed and is so short (also having a shallow story) that it can be beat within a few hours at most. Whatever Sega and Sonic Team does in the future, I want them to take their time to make future Sonic games enjoyable and exciting, yet challengable that it would take us longer than a day to beat it; giving us plenty to do in the game like Sonic Unleashed did. As others have mentioned, I really felt like I didn't get my money's worth with Sonic Generations as well.

While Sonic Generations was good for the time being, to celebrate Sonic's 20th Anniversary, I think it's best that Sega and Sonic Team move on and show us something new and improved in regards to gameplay, even with Anniversary games. The concept of going back replaying levels from the past 20 years was clever and was fun, but I don't think that concept should be brought back into a Sonic game again anytime soon, if ever again.