Your Ideal Sonic Game?

[SilentDoom]

I notice you mentioned jumping on enemies in Sonic's part. The thing is, wouldn't that be hard as fuck in 3d? IMO, you should have the homing attack do the same damage as the jump.

Not really. It's more than possible in Generations and in a lot of cases it's more efficient to jump off enemies than it is to Homing Attack them. Homing Attack should not be the most efficient way to dispose of enemies or the best way to go about moving because it's a fairly mindless technique. Jumping will always be trickier and require a little more skill and as a result deserves more of a reward. Not to mention, Generations has a pretty stiff jump but there's a few cases where jumping on enemies isn't too difficult. You offer more control with that jump and it's not exactly impossible.

As weird as a comparison this is, look at Mario 3D Land. Although it's slower than Sonic, jumping on enemies is still relatively easy yet feels very satisfying no matter what speed you're going because Mario has enough control and weight in his jump.

Edited July 2, 2012 by SiLeNt PyRrH0n

[Chaos Warp]

Not really. It's more than possible in Generations and in a lot of cases it's more efficient to jump off enemies than it is to Homing Attack them. Homing Attack should not be the most efficient way to dispose of enemies or the best way to go about moving because it's a fairly mindless technique. Not to mention, Generations has a pretty stiff jump but there's a few cases where jumping on enemies isn't too difficult. You offer more control with that jump and it's not exactly impossible.

As weird as a comparison this is, look at Mario 3D Land. Although it's slower than Sonic, jumping on enemies is still relatively easy yet feels very satisfying no matter what speed you're going because Mario has enough control and weight in his jump.

Doesn't the 3d screen (on the 3ds) of Mario 3d land really help with the depth perception needed to land jumps on enemies in 3d? And about the "Mario is slower then Sonic but logic still applies", argument, Mario never goes much faster then his dash button speed. In addition to being far faster then him (which IMO already destroys the possibly of jumping on enemies in 3d with Sonic, TBH I never do it in Gens and I find it awkward), his speed can also be much faster then his base speed, making it even harder to land proper jumps. The only time it would work is at the lowest speeds.

To solve this problem, maybe there could be some sort of homing jump (Maybe accomplished by holding down the HA button instead of tapping it), that just kinda directs your jump in the general direction of the enemy so it's not flow-breaking and frustrating to aim for them, but not exactly on target so you still have to use some skill to him him? And then you get the bigger reward for doing that instead of the standard HA.

Also, I'd like to bring something else up.

In your original Wall-O-Text, you mentioned less powerful attacks and more powerful ones. Does that mean that some enemies would take more then one hit to kill if you used a weaker attack or character? I think that's a flow-breaking idea no matter the variety of Sonic game. All enemies should die in 1 hit. Unless you had something else in mind.......

Edited July 2, 2012 by Chaos Warp

[Stritix]

I love the homing attack. It's my favorite move. I'd hate to see it be disposed of.

[Scar]

Not really. It's more than possible in Generations and in a lot of cases it's more efficient to jump off enemies than it is to Homing Attack them. Homing Attack should not be the most efficient way to dispose of enemies or the best way to go about moving because it's a fairly mindless technique. Jumping will always be trickier and require a little more skill and as a result deserves more of a reward. Not to mention, Generations has a pretty stiff jump but there's a few cases where jumping on enemies isn't too difficult. You offer more control with that jump and it's not exactly impossible.

As weird as a comparison this is, look at Mario 3D Land. Although it's slower than Sonic, jumping on enemies is still relatively easy yet feels very satisfying no matter what speed you're going because Mario has enough control and weight in his jump.

Jumping on enemies reliably will always be really hard when you're moving at a speed higher than a brisk jog.

Yeah, jumping is possible and the option to do so should remain, but to simplify and streamline the gameplay the homing attack, pretty much needs to exist. Only problem is the current implementation of it. It can (as has been mentioned on numerous occasions by others) be modified to work better.

Beyond that, I think it introduces a minor, but interesting dynamic. If there are still advantages to jumping, then it would mean the player (a good one at that) would have to choose between reliability (that is the homing attack) or the faster/whatever option (that is straight jumping. The latter may give you a faster time, but its easier to fuck up and could just as equally cost you time should you fail.

[PerfectChaos]

I notice you mentioned jumping on enemies in Sonic's part. The thing is, wouldn't that be hard as fuck in 3d? IMO, you should have the homing attack do the same damage as the jump.

This. However, if the boost DOESN'T make Sonic blast through enemies in the air and actually lets you bounce off them, this might work. Picture it: there's a large gap up ahead with one enemy over it. You line up with it (not hard to do, you're given enough time, and guidance by ring placement) and jump while still boosting (this increases the size of your hitbox, making the process easier/possible), bounce upwards off it and keep going. The boost (and new extra powerful jumpdash) then effectively replace homing attack but they don't home in or break momentum.So in homing attack chains (which would need to be MUCH more spaced out) you have to press the boost button when level with the enemy. Too high and you'll fly over, too low and you'll miss and fall.

[frokenok3]

Hmm, ideal Sonic game...might as well post mine since i was talking about it recently with Eddy.

That would be to have the length of Unleashed. Around 9 stages with 2 acts and a boss around the 4 minute mark. I love Scar's idea with the clock setup. That way it gives you replayability. So you can play the acts either Day or Night. That would be sweet.

Gameplay i want it just like Generations HD. Nough said.

To have a nice story. I'd like to see something close to the Storybook series with some Colours elements. I'd like to have happy go moments with funny stuff and seriousness when needed.

For the CGI opening/ending and important scenes to return. I think Unleashed achieved that perfectly. 60fps if possible otherwise keep it Generations.

I'd like to see Ice stage and Lava stage returning(no city/lava) more like Volcano stage. Also if possible i'd like to see how a labyrinth dark stage looks like in 3D.(something like Lost World) but current graphic/design blah blah stuff.

The music...really doesn't need to say anything. Just make a theme and i'd like to keep the ending a medley of the stages music.

Trophies of course that give a challenge but not impossible stuff. Option stuff for watching scenes and unlockables. Make those red Rings worth getting.

Super Sonic fixed in regular stages. Tails to follow you around in stages. Doesn't need to actually do something. Shadow to remain a rival battle. I think that's better and has more chances in appearing in games. Metal Sonic should be around too.

Online with leaderboards and a Versus mode where you go against others online. Fastest to reach the goal wins or maybe add another mode too. Fastest to collect 100 rings or something. Will give the game tons of replay value.

Finally some missions Generations style. Optional and not something you need to do to finish the game.

I know a lot and sorry for the long post. Well that's my ideal game anyway.

[The future]

On the 2D front:

A Sonic game split into 3 episodes, with 9 full length zones each, with 2 full acts (18 levels), and a boss battle in the end of the 2nd act. Make E3 a little longer so that it can have a series of single acts in a zone that will bring the conclusion of the game.

Some acts can have 2 back-to-back major boss battles past the 5th zone in E1. Not all have to be Eggman.

Want a slight plot twist in the end of each episode.

Make at least one other major enemy other than Robotnik, that also has problems with both Sonic/ Knuckles/ Tails as well as him. Make sure that it isn't an god like enemy of the week type of thing.

Put Nack the Weasel and The Hunter from the comics as side enemies, sorta like Knuckles in S3&K.

Make Metal sonic have multiple forms, ranging from his Sonic CD model, to the S3 & K model

Put 2 more shields (wind, gold) in the levels.

Make some zones have a day to dusk to night setting as the player progresses through the same level.

I come back for more later.

to expand on that, Make the first 5 zones on the same order as Sonic 3, but in a slight variation. Like a tropical beach on the first zone, an underwater stage with a twist in the 2nd zone, an ancient ruins that is raining in the 3rd zone, a carnival in the sunset in the fourth zone, a snow weather w/ snowboarding at night at the 5th. When the 6th zone comes in, bring in even more surprises that expands on the Sonic franchise and add original elements in it. Like an entire zone (zone 6) that is similar to the Gumball bonus stage, but with gimmicks like shields not being in monitors, but in spheres in the sky. And the first zone to have 2 major bosses back to back at the end of act 2.

And on the shield/ powerups portion, make a level up slelection. Like when you get a flame shield, that can protect you from weaker fire attacks. Get another one when you already have one, you get a level 2 flame shield, that grants you more powers such as to break stronger walls for hidden routes, melt ice and burn bushes for hidden powerups. Level 3 (maximum level) flame shield can grant you the ability to burn badniks simply by approaching them and the strongest flame fireball attack for Sonic. Same for lightning shield, and same for water as well as the wind shield.

On the level selection, have a "branching" zone for alternative routes being taken and alternative bosses for that as well. Like for example, on Zone 15 (in E2) you can go to Zone 16a or Zone 16b. After you finish Zone 16a or b, you can go to Zone 17. Not too many branching zones, but a few for variety.

Zone themselves, of course for the Sonic fans, should not have too many loops or springs, especially in the later levels. Need special level gimmicks to keep it different and exciting.

I come back with a list of zones soon....

[SilentDoom]

Beyond that, I think it introduces a minor, but interesting dynamic. If there are still advantages to jumping, then it would mean the player (a good one at that) would have to choose between reliability (that is the homing attack) or the faster/whatever option (that is straight jumping. The latter may give you a faster time, but its easier to fuck up and could just as equally cost you time should you fail.

This is pretty much exactly what I'm trying to imply in my big post and that quoted one.

Also, if it's of any interest to anyone, I've edited my post on page 1 with more new stuff. There's quite a bit more now. Props to those who have read it though. I commend you for being patient enough to read the wall.

Edited July 2, 2012 by SiLeNt PyRrH0n

[Chaos Warp]

This is pretty much exactly what I'm trying to imply in my big post and that quoted one.

Also, if it's of any interest to anyone, I've edited my post on page 1 with more new stuff. There's quite a bit more now. Props to those who have read it though. I commend you for being patient enough to read the wall.

Cool.

Not to be a dick or anything (sorry if I come across that way), but do you mind addressing my post? I'm interested as to what you have to say.

[Tani Coyote]

I liked Sonic Adventure's idea of six modes of gameplay, even if fishing was a horrible idea.

I'd suggest:

Story:

Some sort of overarching plot. I like deeper plots, but not too deep it becomes a soap opera.

Some plot twists are nice. I liked Black Knight because it had two of them. It's good to see twists I honestly did not expect.

As for gameplay:

-Sonic for speed, obviously.

-Shadow for speed, but with more difficulty. He should have tougher enemies and DEFINITELY tougher bosses. While speedy, he should have a range of energy-based attacks. I want to see him be able to go all Xemnas on his enemies' butts with energy blades! He offers plenty of opportunities for more varied gameplay, though don't make it sluggish speed a la the Werehog.

Tails and Knuckles can fit it here somewhere I'm sure, though I'm not quite sure what exact formula should be followed. Emerald hunting is often a mixed bag, though Tails' beating Sonic to the goal by cheati- er, flying, seems to be popular.

I chose the Big 4. 5 characters is probably good enough, so Amy or Silver or some such can probably be fit in.

As a general note: please lock Silver in the past if he's ever introduced as a main character again. It makes things so much easier to follow.

Overall, one should aim for speed-oriented gameplay, though exceptions can be made a la Classic Sonic for platforming, but don't slow it down TOO much.

The main issue is everyone has different ideas on what they want. Some want pure speed(spam the X button), whereas others want more varied gameplay types with speed being only one of the types.

Voices:

I'm content with all the new choices except Shadow's. Oh god. Please, can him and replace him with someone more Humphrey-esque.

[SilentDoom]

Doesn't the 3d screen (on the 3ds) of Mario 3d land really help with the depth perception needed to land jumps on enemies in 3d? And about the "Mario is slower then Sonic but logic still applies", argument, Mario never goes much faster then his dash button speed. In addition to being far faster then him (which IMO already destroys the possibly of jumping on enemies in 3d with Sonic, TBH I never do it in Gens and I find it awkward), his speed can also be much faster then his base speed, making it even harder to land proper jumps. The only time it would work is at the lowest speeds.

To be perfectly honest, I don't see the huge deal with the 3D. I can jump on enemies is games like 64 and Galaxy just fine (even without using the Spin). It's a little harder but actually that's partially down to them tweaking the jumping physics in 3D Land to accustom to the fact that you're mainly jumping. The jumping physics feel a little weightier and overall a little better to control in 3D Land than they do in Galaxy 1/2 for example. Again, it's also down to tweaking how Sonic's jump works so that he can jump on enemies with relative ease. Generations' jump is pretty stiff for instance, so although it's possible to jump on stuff and it helps maintain the flow better if you can do it, it's hard to pull off.

To solve this problem, maybe there could be some sort of homing jump (Maybe accomplished by holding down the HA button instead of tapping it), that just kinda directs your jump in the general direction of the enemy so it's not flow-breaking and frustrating to aim for them, but not exactly on target so you still have to use some skill to him him? And then you get the bigger reward for doing that instead of the standard HA.

I actually very much like the sound of this idea. Another alternative could also simply be making enemies a fair bit bigger so that you have a larger target.

Also, I'd like to bring something else up.

In your original Wall-O-Text, you mentioned less powerful attacks and more powerful ones. Does that mean that some enemies would take more then one hit to kill if you used a weaker attack or character? I think that's a flow-breaking idea no matter the variety of Sonic game. All enemies should die in 1 hit. Unless you had something else in mind.......

I feel this is only an issue if there are forced sections where you have to stop and kill enemies (which in my opinion should just be abolished completely because they're a stupid waste of time and do nothing but break the flow of the game). If the enemies are just there for the sole purpose of increasing the difficulty and acting as an obstacle, then not being able to kill them in a single hit isn't an issue at all because killing enemies isn't compulsory.

[Chaos Warp]

Let's see now,

-Momentum-based gameplay and level design in 3d, with SA1 acceleration and low speed handling and Gens top speed and a turning arc that widens as you go faster as the base character controls.

-Multiple playable characters (Sonic and Tails are a given, anyone else depends on the plot), fully optional, everyone plays in the same levels S3k style, minimum of 3. All characters share certain moves such as the jump, roll, spindash and some form of turning assist move. Sonic has speed-based moves, a more powerful spindash and a higher normal speed cap (as opposed to the normal Gens speed cap, Sonic can run on his own power all the way to Unleashed boost speeds given a absurdly long stretch), Tails can fly, Knux (if he`s there) can break certain walls and can climb and glide, Shadow (again, if he`s there) has some of Sonic's speed-based moves and Chaos Powers, etc etc you know how it goes.

-Level design that is open and less path-based, but not so open that you lose your sense of direction. Basically what Dio has touched on before.

-A plot that has a perfect balance of dark and serious ala SA1 or Unleashed. Speaking of, this game should have the scope and budget at around Unleashed standards.

-Story customization. What I mean is that you can turn off all cutscenes except absolutely needed-to-understand ones. You can also turn off Hub Worlds and have a SA2 or Unleashed-style level select (it`s always there if you have the hubs on to enter previously played acts and to enter the hubs themselves). This is to ensure good reviews from people (or reviewers) who hate hub worlds and a story in Sonic games.

Just making clear, a Sonic game does not have to be exactly like this for me to love it. This is just my dream scenario.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Chaos Warp

[Burnt Ash]

Eh, this is just me, but I'd rather not have Tails being a main in the plot being a given.

[- Eternal Paradox -]

You know what I'd like to see return to the series?

Drop in drop out 3D co-op.

Something like they did in Shadow, only with the modern formula. Tails was always meant to be a co-op character anyway.

[\Lennox]

Okay, here goes a massive re-posting of a topic post for a hypothetical formula for a Sonic-verse Action-RPG.

That's right, I'm pretty ambitious.

So anyway, after the disaster-fest that was Sonic Chronicles, the confusing EXP system and failed beat-em-up night stages of Sonic Unleashed as well as the hub worlds of Sonic Adventure, I decided to try and reconstruct them into a platforming Action-RPG.

Earlier, I read the topic on whether or not to expand or linearize the Zones in Sonic games, and I came across an image Diogenes created that would be suitable for several hub-based and even action-based areas that could probably create a Sonic-styled RPG. Of course, this will have to drop several of the 2.5D elements introduced by games with incarnations of the Hedgehog Engine (Colors used parts of it for shaders and vertexes apparently, so it can be called a Hedgehog Engine Lite) in order to make room for exploration.

Here is the aforementioned image from Diogenes:

Of course, this gameplay will have to be suited to the various Zone clichés of the Sonic games, such as rolling green hills, cool and edgy ice caps, urbanized areas with speedy highways and industrial fortresses possibly in chemical plants. When I thought of the gameplay for a Sonic-styled RPG,

I imagined the transition from hub to action Zone should be eliminated entirely. Final Fantasy XIII-2 always used a checkpoint that was able to determine your next destination, and a checkpoint like that could trigger an event full of battles and high speed platforming skills. The event would then become an Act of a Zone, much like the Classic Sonic games. Besides, even without the RPG elements, City Escape Zone sounds very catchy (because of that goddamn z-sound).

To increase exploration, the hubs could have multiple floors: like running along the sides of Spagonia's Clock Tower, to speeding and battling all those Eggman's robots in its hypothetical catacombs. Some Acts can take place in one floor, or occur throughout all levels of a Zone.

That way, the hub Zones become the Zones in that enemies appear on sight, and a goal point is placed somewhere around a city. And of course, there has to be an ending checkpoint complete with a goal ring, but the goal ring won't appear unless you've completed the objective, which may very well be, make the goal ring appear, defeat all the enemies or save the citizens in distress.

Also, for every RPG, there is a party. However, Sonic will be the one mostly in control, relying on AI party members for assistance, like Tails for his flight and gadget usage, Knuckles for digging and battling hordes, Amy for seeking treasure through tarot cards and protecting Sonic like a madwoman, while Cream and Cheese could potentially be like healers and enemy hindrances.

Each party member also has its own set of stats, which are the following:

Like any RPG, these party members also have classes as well. Each character type has its own set of classes and they are built to work with each other.

Some of these classes can belong to a certain theme, some of them involve wearing different outfits, and some of them can even become continuity nods to different Sonic games. Each class has its own little set of bonuses, and you can merge skills from other classes and even set a secondary class. For now, I'm not so sure what classes should go to which, but they should be able to apply to each character to create a party whose strengths build on each other's weaknesses.

In case there are any flaws, please change this if you want, or direct any comments here!

Also,

Edited July 8, 2012 by Lennox

[Multikaris]

A game infested with Sonic/Blaze ship tease.

[Jin.]

A game infested with Sonic/Blaze ship tease.

[Scar]

A game infested with Sonic/Blaze ship tease.

Last I checked, Sonic isn't about romance.

[Diogenes]

If it's an infestation we ought to call an exterminator.

[Kuzu]

Last I checked, Sonic isn't about romance.

Didn't stop 06, and it sure as shit ain't stopping the comics.

[Scar]

Didn't stop 06, and it sure as shit ain't stopping the comics.

06 was a bastardisation of the Sonic series at large. The comics are a different medium.

I for one would like dense, usually cringeworthy romance to stay out of the games.

[Multikaris]

A full 3D game with everyone playable, including Wave, Storm, Big, Chaos, Tikal, Nega, Mighty, Fang, Bean. Bark, Ray, and maybe even the unused chars like Tiara, Honey, Rocket Metal, Mr.Needlemouse, etc.

[Scar]

A full 3D game with everyone playable, including Wave, Storm, Big, Chaos, Tikal, Nega, Mighty, Fang, Bean. Bark, Ray, and maybe even the unused chars like Tiara, Honey, Rocket Metal, Mr.Needlemouse, etc.

Not even trying to camoflage the trolling now.

[Balding Spider]

A full 3D game with everyone playable, including Wave, Storm, Big, Chaos, Tikal, Nega, Mighty, Fang, Bean. Bark, Ray, and maybe even the unused chars like Tiara, Honey, Rocket Metal, Mr.Needlemouse, etc.

That sounds like a terrible mess.

[Anti Alias]

Didn't stop 06, and it sure as shit ain't stopping the comics.

It's your fault.

now miru won't stop talking about shipping!