Darker Atmosphere for Sonic?

[Blacklightning]

When it comes to darker themes and Sonic games, I tend to think the best way to do it is essentially how Majora's Mask did it. MM wasn't dark because it was trying to be dark, and I'm sure most of us have found out the hard way that trying to be grimdark and trying too hard usually causes it to backfire (ShTH being the most blatant case in point, with some instances here and there in '06). Hell, when you think about it, the overall atmosphere of the game really wasn't much different from your typical Zelda game - you didn't see them stressing on with immature dialogue with pointless amounts of g-rated cussing or watered down, sepia-filtered environments or even any meaningful amount of violence more than other Zelda games.

So how does Majora's Mask fare so much better as a dark Zelda game than ShTH or '06 fares as a dark Sonic game? Writer competency aside, a lot of it had to do with the fact there were really, really grim implications about the consequences of failure surrounding the game, and it had that big goddamned rock in the sky constantly remind you of that almost everywhere you went. As if that wasn't bad enough, MM actually had a condition of failure beyond simply running out of life and dying, there was never a single moment in the game where you felt you could afford to dawdle (which is a sense of purpose any good game should have, even if not so blatantly. But I digress), and best of all, you were constantly gripped by the feeling that you couldn't actually save everyone and had to make difficult choices who to go for - granted, that's all moot in the end because the solutions somehow overlap in the credits, but nonetheless it hits the point home that having a situation where things don't actually end in the best case scenario despite the player's best efforts can singlehandedly darken the tone of the game quite considerably, and tastefully to boot. Even in a franchise starring anthropomorphic technicolour animals.

If I were to apply any of this to Sonic? Make it mean something bad for once if you happen to finish the game without a full set of Chaos Emeralds - not just the "muahahaha, I'm not dead! I'll be back!" shenanigans that the Genny games pulled. Make the player feel as though there's actually something at stake and time is scarce enough to be important, even if you have to put an actual time limit on the actual playthrough of the game to do so. Hell, even just establish a context where dying isn't the only way to lose the game. Any of these things could work, and considering they're largely gameplay changes you could almost literally do it without a single damn change in tone from what we have right now.

[Diogenes]

Zero has animesque character designs with characters having exaggerated head and eye proportions like Sonic, designs which could practically be considered "cute".

Man there is a big difference between anime people and cartoon animals. Just look at, say, Fullmetal Alchemist. Oh hey bright eyed anime kids doing magic, this'll be fun, right?

Hahahaha

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Man there is a big difference between anime people and cartoon animals. Just look at, say, Fullmetal Alchemist. Oh hey bright eyed anime kids doing magic, this'll be fun, right?

Hahahaha

Meh. Fullmetal Alchemist character designs aren't as cute as Megaman or Sonic.

Edited April 3, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[John F. Kennedy]

I wouldn't mind since I don't like these 24/7 happy Sonic themes we've been getting lately.

[Kuzu]

If I were to apply any of this to Sonic? Make it mean something bad for once if you happen to finish the game without a full set of Chaos Emeralds - not just the "muahahaha, I'm not dead! I'll be back!" shenanigans that the Genny games pulled. Make the player feel as though there's actually something at stake and time is scarce enough to be important, even if you have to put an actual time limit on the actual playthrough of the game to do so. Hell, even just establish a context where dying isn't the only way to lose the game. Any of these things could work, and considering they're largely gameplay changes you could almost literally do it without a single damn change in tone from what we have right now.

You mean like how in the end of the 8-bit Sonic 2, the implications that Tails is dead?

How serious any particular character or group of characters takes it is not necessarily the same as how serious it is. There's no rule that says the way the protagonist sees it is how things really are. It would be perfectly valid to write it so that Sonic is taking it less seriously than it is, having him be full-on cocky thrill seeker while everything else is pointing to this being serious shit, because that's the kind of character Sonic is; someone who sees Eggman's schemes as a chance for adventure, someone who expects he'll come out on top even if he's not deadly serious about it.

But doesn't that cause a sort of dissonance between the medium and character? Let's say for instance that Eggman had just blown up an entire town filled people,do we really expect Sonic to treat something like as "Oh That Eggman"?

[Diogenes]

Do you think it's in Sonic's character to react like that? The problem in that situation isn't so much the dissonance between Sonic's reaction and how the situation "should" be treated, but in it being completely inappropriate for the character and, really, for almost any hero. My point is that different characters will react differently to the same situation, and there is no rule that says the protagonist must have the "correct" reaction; if anything, the rule is that they should have the reaction befitting their character. Sonic is a cocky thrill seeker, so when he sees Eggman's robots approaching, he's going to want to have some fun with it. Tails is still a kid and is more a support character than a direct fighter, so he might get nervous. Shadow is all serious business, so he's going to put on his extra serious face. The fact that these characters react differently, and differently from the player, is what makes them interesting.

[DC111]

I just want a good story with the elements a good story has: some kind of conflict and urgency, the characters reacting to circumstances and interacting with each other in their own in-character ways, and scenes that are interesting enough to keep me immersed. A story shouldn't TRY to be dark or light, but if it happens to end up that way, so be it.

But even in a dark-ish story, the characters shouldn't turn into serious, dark versions of themselves just for the sake of plot tone (like Shadow swearing and being overly angsty in ShtH, and even Sonic being oddly serious sometimes in Sonic 2006). If the circumstances are dark enough where it actually WARRANTS characters acting consistently out of character... then it's not really the kind of story I want in my Sonic game. Same goes for light.

Personally, I quite like the atmosphere of the Sonic Adventures (especially 1), Sonic Heroes, the Rush series, the Storybook series, and Unleashed. Sonic 2006 is decent in theory but the execution was horrible, keeping it from what might have otherwise been an Adventure series feel.

Edited April 3, 2012 by DC111

[Diogenes]

A story shouldn't TRY to be dark or light, but if it happens to end up that way, so be it.

This is not how writing works.

[DC111]

This is not how writing works.

Yes it is. Shadow the Hedgehog's plot was aiming for darkness and 'maturity' and putting that notion above other things that should be considered in the writing of a story. The other games I mentioned were not. For the most part they turned out better, less forced, and more engaging than Shadow the Hedgehog, I think most people would agree. The Storybook series and Sonic Adventure 2 were somewhat darker in tone than some other games, but it was not intentionally forced into the stories for the sake of itself. The stories' contents are what gave them their tone, not the other way around.

Edited April 3, 2012 by DC111

[Diogenes]

You don't just scribble on a page, then look down and realize you've written a story. Where your story falls on the scale of light vs dark (and every other scale, really) is almost entirely a conscious choice. ShtH's story was shit for many reasons, but intentionally writing a dark story vs blundering into one is not one of them.

[DC111]

You don't just scribble on a page, then look down and realize you've written a story. Where your story falls on the scale of light vs dark (and every other scale, really) is almost entirely a conscious choice. ShtH's story was shit for many reasons, but intentionally writing a dark story vs blundering into one is not one of them.

Yeah, but you don't just think to yourself "Oh I want a grimdark story" and start shaping everything around that, either. I think that for many writers if not most, the concepts for things they want to happen, scenes that will take place, characters to be in the story, things that'll be said, etc. are the ideas that come first, not "what can I do to make this dark/light" or any other scale.

Maybe suggesting that stories just 'blunder' into darkness or lightness is a bit far-fetched, but so is suggesting the alternative.

[Diogenes]

Yeah, but you don't just think to yourself "Oh I want a grimdark story" and start shaping everything around that, either.

Why not?

I think that for many writers if not most, the concepts for things they want to happen, scenes that will take place, characters to be in the story, things that'll be said, etc. are the ideas that come first, not "what can I do to make this dark/light" or any other scale.

That things are interconnected does not mean there should be no conscious attempts at shaping them.

[Vertekins]

Yes it is. Shadow the Hedgehog's plot was aiming for darkness and 'maturity' and putting that notion above other things that should be considered in the writing of a story. The other games I mentioned were not. For the most part they turned out better, less forced, and more engaging than Shadow the Hedgehog, I think most people would agree. The Storybook series and Sonic Adventure 2 were somewhat darker in tone than some other games, but it was not intentionally forced into the stories for the sake of itself. The stories' contents are what gave them their tone, not the other way around.

To add onto this, it was the mostly light-hearted mannerisms of the characters especially Sonic that offset and balanced out the story in terms of darkness in SA2 and the two Storybook games. The tone of the stories were not forced onto the characters to the point of making them responsible for the dark tone through their actions. Eggman in SA2 was a catalyst for the dark goings-on in SA2 and acted with a frequently single-minded ruthlessness a lot of the time but he still had his comical overtones and his dark villainy was overtaken by Gerald's batshit insanity.

Whilst in the Storybook games, the dark element to their stories is fairly subtle throughout until very late in the story and the implications of say, Shahra's emotional manipulation, Sonic's supposed annihilation of Erazor in Evil Foundry's molten metal and Merlina's antics after she's gained control of the Scabbard are only fleetingly implied/shown yet not really any less intentionally dark. And that's one of the reasons why I like their stories.

[DC111]

Why not?

I could ask the same about;

You don't just scribble on a page, then look down and realize you've written a story.

I guess I just don't think the idea of a dark plot/light plot on its own is enough to inspire the creativity needed to create a story. You need actual ideas and substance.

That things are interconnected does not mean there should be no conscious attempts at shaping them.

Agreed. I just don't think the shaping of tone should come before the shaping of characters and ideas. That's why we have games like ShtH.

[Diogenes]

I could ask the same about;

...because that is idiotic. You don't get good work out of not giving a shit and just doing whatever.

I guess I just don't think the idea of a dark plot/light plot on its own is enough to inspire the creativity needed to create a story. You need actual ideas and substance.

I never said otherwise! Just that it's not wrong to set down the general tone early on, and to keep it in mind so you can guide your story in the proper direction.

Agreed. I just don't think the shaping of tone should come before the shaping of characters and ideas. That's why we have games like ShtH.

No, it isn't. Them saying "let's make a darker game for Shadow" has nothing to do with how terrible it is. What's terrible is what they did with it.

[DC111]

...because that is idiotic. You don't get good work out of not giving a shit and just doing whatever.

Neither of us said that. And I didn't mean to imply so.

I never said otherwise! Just that it's not wrong to set down the general tone early on, and to keep it in mind so you can guide your story in the proper direction.

I don't think it's wrong to set the tone early on either. I just don't see how that taking precedence over everything else is any good for it in the long run. If nothing else, there should at least be a balance between focus on tone and focus on ideas.

No, it isn't. Them saying "let's make a darker game for Shadow" has nothing to do with how terrible it is. What's terrible is what they did with it.

I guess I should amend my original statement to "tone shouldn't be put FIRST" instead of implying that tone shouldn't be considered. My bad. Having said that, I think it's terrible because they forced what didn't need to be there by adding swearing, guns and generic grimdark villains. Their tone direction is there, but the ideas to make that tone convincing are not.

[Good Company]

How serious any particular character or group of characters takes it is not necessarily the same as how serious it is. There's no rule that says the way the protagonist sees it is how things really are. It would be perfectly valid to write it so that Sonic is taking it less seriously than it is, having him be full-on cocky thrill seeker while everything else is pointing to this being serious shit, because that's the kind of character Sonic is; someone who sees Eggman's schemes as a chance for adventure, someone who expects he'll come out on top even if he's not deadly serious about it.

Well Sonic seems to get serious when he interacts with Shadow.

[Kuzu]

Well Sonic seems to get serious when he interacts with Shadow.

"Now that was sweet Shadow, how about a little competition?"

"Well talk about being stubborn and full of surprises?"

"Not bad Shadow, you beat both Jet and his gang"

Yeah, completely serious. And I swear to god if you are Total Shadow again!!

[sonfan1984]

Sonic ruins pretty much every serious moment whenever he interacts with Shadow in the Shadow game. I love it, lol.

[Phos]

Back when I was trying out every crappy Sonic game, I had a friend of mine try to act as player 2 in the story mode to see what it entailed. I discovered that if player 2 uses Sonic to attack the soldiers, he will berate shadow for doing it as though player 1 was the one doing it.

Sonic has never really had a dark atmosphere. Even when they tried their hardest, it just didn't happen. What they had kind of reminds me if someone were tro try and rewrite No More Heroes to be serious. It's just as well, I suppose, it would have been wasted if they pulled it off. Dark atmospheres seldom do well with fast paced events. I can't imagine anyone being intimidated by Pyramid Head if he jumped around like a power ranger.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Exactly what kind of "Dark" are people even talking about here?

If you're talking dark as to make it more for adults, then I think you should take a step back over the line because you're going to have some very shitty luck pulling that off. No way that's gonna work very well. You dealing with a franchise that is 20 years old, and darkening the series in that manner isn't going to flow well if at all for this franchise. There's not much you can actually get away with for a series like this.

If you're talking "Dark" as in "more intense action", then you have a jacked up perception of how action-packed you can get with a lighthearted series.

But if you're talking "darker yet still good for kids and the general audience", then I personally think it's a matter of the elements you use as well as not being so "in your face" with it. I've seen a number of media for general audiences that can pull of darker elements while still being a franchise appropriate for children, and a few are rather lighthearted franchises to boot. You can't really say it's impossible for a cartoony series like Sonic to pull off when there are other cartoony franchises that have managed to pull it off.

Edited April 10, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[The Weeb with No Name]

Hey man, I think it'd actually be a good idea for Sonic to explore more adult themes, you know?

The Sonic franchise would be the perfect medium through which to teach kids early on about the responsibilities and stresses of working a 9 to 5 job, creating a budget and supporting a family.

[Omega]

there is a one in shadow the hedgehog

[Burnt Ash]

there is a one in shadow the hedgehog

Well, it wasn't particularly good. A dark atmosphere could work, if something along the lines in what CSS said.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Hey man, I think it'd actually be a good idea for Sonic to explore more adult themes, you know?

The Sonic franchise would be the perfect medium through which to teach kids early on about the responsibilities and stresses of working a 9 to 5 job, creating a budget and supporting a family.

As long as we're pulling off a Majora's Mask and not a Bad Fur Day with the themes, it shouldn't be an issue with how far they try to go before they get slaped with a higher ESRB/CERO/PEGI rating.