Grinding

[Xenos]

I'd prefer the boost not be in the game at all.

We can talk about 'Why The Boost Is Cancer Devil-Span' Later, can't we just focus on grinding ideas? :V

EDIT

All these topics about how X and Y should work, of what Sonic games should be always come back to the boost. That's practically where a big divide comes into play, whether or not it's what the topic was initially about. As it stands, most things about Unleashed gameplay, be it the platforming, level design, grinding or whatever can't be changed with the boost still in place. It's kinda funny that we end up in this same discussion over and over.

You're stating that as if it was fact.

Again, all the boost is, is a mechanic, mechanics in games can be changed depending on what game we're playing, the boost doesn't make the game.

It seems that way because they've built the gameplay around the boost, instead of building the gameplay around the boost and implementing other things that keep it from being linear, similar, etc. whatever. It is funny we end up in this discussion over and over though. Only because it's getting a bit annoying trying to point out the boost mechanic doesn't make the game any different from what it is.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Xenos

[Diogenes]

We can talk about 'Why The Boost Is Cancer Devil-Span' Later, can't we just focus on grinding ideas? :V

I was!

[Gaming Misfit]

I find it funny that on a forum I go to for an MMO they discuss grinding too, but it's not even the same definition.

Grinding @ MMO site = Fighting and dragging through fights to level up or get something

Grinding @ Sonic site = Sliding down poles

Anyways, I really don't give a shit. :/

[Indigo Rush]

EDIT: Frack, I can't count!

Two Three interesting things to note:

- In Generations, City Escape ironically has far fewer grinding sections than Green Hill, despite being the level where the mechanic originated.

- If I'm not mistaken, Starlight Carnival and Asteroid Coaster from Sonic Colors were completely devoid of grind rails. Same for Cool Edge from Unleashed.

- The best implimentation of the "Game and Watch" grind rail segments were in Unleashed, particularly for Skyscraper Scamper, where there were a HUGE ton of paths to take by jumping and switching at the right moments.

These 3-lanes in the middle of space do have opportunities to be strategic when implemented properly, albeit with great reserve. Also, if we can judge Colors and what we see in City Escape Generations, it's looking like we'll be seeing less grind sections. I understand that they're still very prevalent, but it's looking like they're starting to let up a bit.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[Blue Blood]

- City Escape ironically has far fewer grinding sections than Green Hill in Generations, despite being the level where the mechanic originated.

Yeah, I was just thinking about this. It's quite nice. The only rails are the very well thought out bits in the boarding section and and a few stair case banisters near the part area.

- If I'm not mistaken, Starlight Carnival and Asteroid Coaster from Sonic Colors were completely devoid of grind rails. Same for Cool Edge from Unleashed.

Hm, you're right on this. Aquarium Park hardly had any either. Complete and utter lies. There was one iddy-biddy rail in the Holoska hub, which by extension is Cool Edge. It's just as bad as all the others!

- The best implimentation of the "Game and Watch" grind rail segments were in Unleashed, particularly for Skyscraper Scamper, where there were a HUGE tone of paths to take by jumping and switching at the right moments.

You mean that bit after the Interceptor Chase? That was Unleashed grinding done right! Different paths, it was broken up with enemies and, route depending, you took a detour scaling some buildings on foot. Yeah, definitely good implementation.

[Soniman]

That's another thing I wouldn't mind, small, short, floating rails that lead to different sections of the level, possibly to hidden secrets and such.

[Semi-colon e]

I never really had much of an opinion in the 2D games for grinding, except the Rush games where you can trick off them and give them a purpose. I kind of liked grinding in SA2 with the balancing and whatnot, but grinding seems to work pretty well now, and they seem to be using it less and in a more effective way as of Colours anyway. This is pretty good because it seemed like they just became there to be there.

Also Sky Rail was a mess of a level because of the really fucking weird level design and rails that just drop into pits with no warning, as well as being so arbitrary and short. I loved Final Rush though, because of all the different alternate routes and shortcuts you can take using the rails.

[Rainbow Boom]

It's a video game. nuff said

[Carbo]

It's a video game. nuff said

This isn't an answer to anything, and posts like these are incredibly nonconstructive and spammy. Cut it out.

[Scar]

Skyscraper Scamper <3

Best Unleashed grinding ever. Brilliant stage through and through.

[Chibinuva]

I haven't played SA2 yet, but I think that would probably be the way to go (for 3D games at least.) I prefer parts with optional rails or multiple rails for paths to take in order to get more rings, but with the chance of missing and falling (preferably not to your doom though, unlike the beginning of Crisis City [second part.]) Shadow's game did provide an easy way to switch rails, though that's basically the same as quick step aside from the fact that the game didn't have quick step. Hopefully not like Secret Rings, as while the rails were not required, switching them without jumping was a pain and I always overshot and had to jump back on (I blame the motion controls.) Being able to jump on rails in the middle is nice (like 06,) but you should be able to jump on them from below (unless you can glitch through walls,) so in 2D games it should be Sonic Advance style, not Rush.

[Eternal EX]

*Pops in*

Wait a day where everyone agrees with Dio? Did I miss something?

[Chaos Warp]

I would like boosting to be removed from Unleashed grinding, and the crouch and balance to be added. I never liked boosting on rails because it never felt natural to me or made much sense (I know it's a video game, but at least when Sonic is boosting on foot, his feet can dash him forward, but when he's on a rail, that can't happen). Other then that, Unleashed did it best.

[Nitwit_Speed]

In current games, transferring from rail to rail is easy and you're glued down. SA2 made a point of how thin what you're grinding on truly is and required you to be precise when landing on them.

And sole rails as part of the environment are groovy, but if you have a rail for the sake of it, you may as well have a rail jungle- a mini FR, persay- for the sake of it.

[lounge]

rather than like Heroes' "dance your way forward"

[Blue Blood]

Also another thing that needs to come back to grinding are the original sound effects. Seriously, SA2's grinding sound effects were the best. Especially when you hit the rail at full speed, mmmmm it felt and sounded so satisfying.

[Xenos]

Haha! This is so true! When '06 came about they changed many of the stock sound effects, mostly for the worse. The sound when you when you land on a rail now is really soft and almost sounds like someone taking a breath. The OTT metal clunk sound was much better. Same for the springs. They sound lame now.

While we're at it, how about that jump sound effect?! Sounds way to realistic and flippy!

oH, OH! What about when hitting enemies in Generations?! Those explosions are clearly inorganic!

I was being serious with that^ Though. not

The spring sound effect I actually prefer though, that *Boing! Zoom!>>>* Effect is cool to me. The other one? it didn't give me that feeling that I was getting launched a fair distance at high speeds.

The grinding sound effect? Yeah, I think the most current version when boosting sounds good enough. "He's hot stuff, look at those sparks!!!" Is what comes to mind.

[Chooch]

Sonic Adventure 2 grinding was shit. Yeah, I said it.

There's next to no point in having multiple grind rails running parallel to each other with no proper way to reliably switch between them without risking losing a life. Not to mention they don't really branch off to different pathways (outside of I think Final Rush/Chase?) or offer anything interesting outside of 'Let me jump off here and see if I don't die by falling between the lower rails!' It's just stupid to me, honestly.

There's all these comments about how the Sonic Adventure 2 rail system allegedly required 'more skill' and I can't even fathom why people would bother saying such things when the majority of Sonic Adventure 2 grinding constituted as hold down the crouch button until you get until the end.

The 'balancing' system on the rails didn't even work properly at higher speeds most of the time because you'd be going too fast to react and alter your balance in a way that would help you out. Hell, even if you did react it probably wouldn't register your inputs correctly anyway, so you would just slow down or immediately stop and be stuck on the rail for a while longer.

Balancing didn't even come into play most of the time because as I said earlier, you get past the vast majority of rail sections just holding the crouch button until it's finished.

Even if the rail system in Sonic Adventure 2 really did take more skill, I'll say right now that I didn't think it was anywhere near as fun as grinding in Sonic Unleashed. Gaps in rails and hazards like spiked bombs for you to jump over, various points where switching rails is necessary in order to avoid death, enemies chasing and attacking you while you're grinding on rails.. come on now. That's a hell of a lot more interesting.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Chooch

[EXshad]

Grinding, in my opinion, has always been a pain in the ass in some way, shape or form. In Sonic Adventure 2, keeping your balance to maintain speed was an arduous task. In Heroes, when you switchedrails , you some how managed to dive over the fucking rail, usually to your death. In Shadow the Hedgehog, it was boring, and while switching rails was more well done than in the previous 2 games, it took longer than it should, resulting in you taking damage if something was in the way. In Sonic 2006, you couldn't even switch rails without jumping OFF the rail and homing in on the rail. And in Unleashed and Colors, Sonic Team gave up completely and took all physics away from rails, turning them into mini-games that took for-fucking-ever unless you had boost energy, in which case you'd be vaulted off the rails into a bottomless pit if you weren't fast enough to switch.

I say we should have a fusion of what we have in Sonic Adventure 2 and Unleashed. Let's say we're using an Xbox 360 controller as a basis. I say the rails should have similar physics to that of Adventure 2, in that you can slow down or speed up while on the rail based on how you handle the curvature of the rail. For example, when the rail curves to the left, if you turn with the contour of the rail, you can maintain your speed, rather than slowing down as you go along. Of course, for some crazy corkscrews in the rails, or for some grinding segment where you need to be moving at high-speeds the boosters should still be there to give you automatic bursts of speed, but they should be limited in supply to really showcase how your skill can impact your grinding experience. With a system like this, and that fact that boosting essentially replaces crouching, crouching on a rail to gain speed is no longer necessary. Of course, I think the boost should be severely limited, but.. that's another post for another time.

Now, in Unleashed, the B button could slow you down in case you were going too fast. I say this should return, in case you need time to switch rails in case an obstacle is coming and you're moving too quickly to react to it. It just seems like a smart idea, but in a game like that where the rails were predictable and automated, it served no purpose. Here? it actually could!

The bumpers should still be used to switch from rail-to-rail, since the control stick would be used to maneuver the contours of the rail, as I previously mentioned. Meanwhile, no matter which direction you are leaning, the jump button gets you directly off the rail, in case you just want to get off without being thrown to the left or right, like you usually were in Adventure 2 or Heroes. Also, you can actually homing attack the rail to get an initial head-start when it comes to gaining high-speed, just in case for some reason you start with a low base-speed when initially boarding the rail. Or, what if for some reason you manage to miss landing on the rail and could fall to your death? The homing attack could be a nice second chance.

Also, rails need to be more cleverly implemented. In levels like City Escape, they were part of the level, flowing cleanly with the rest of the level design rather than acting as some mini-game over the fucking ocean. Likewise, once in a while the rails CAN serve as a really cool set-piece, like they did in Final Rush. I believe if they can be implemented with the same cleverness and care as they were in those levels, then rails can be cool again.

Lastly, and most importantly, Sonic needs his soap shoes again. Without them, rail grinding is lame and drags down the quality of every game they are in. This is the most crucial step upon which all other steps in this post are based on. dur

Edited September 27, 2011 by EXshad

[Spooky Mulder]

Grinding is an excuse to easily extend the lengths of levels. It's stupid and lazy.

[Nepenthe]

Sonic Adventure 2 grinding was shit. Yeah, I said it.

There's next to no point in having multiple grind rails running parallel to each other with no proper way to reliably switch between them without risking losing a life. Not to mention they don't really branch off to different pathways (outside of I think Final Rush/Chase?) or offer anything interesting outside of 'Let me jump off here and see if I don't die by falling between the lower rails!' It's just stupid to me, honestly.

There's all these comments about how the Sonic Adventure 2 rail system allegedly required 'more skill' and I can't even fathom why people would bother saying such things when the majority of Sonic Adventure 2 grinding constituted as hold down the crouch button until you get until the end.

The 'balancing' system on the rails didn't even work properly at higher speeds most of the time because you'd be going too fast to react and alter your balance in a way that would help you out. Hell, even if you did react it probably wouldn't register your inputs correctly anyway, so you would just slow down or immediately stop and be stuck on the rail for a while longer.

Balancing didn't even come into play most of the time because as I said earlier, you get past the vast majority of rail sections just holding the crouch button until it's finished.

Even if the rail system in Sonic Adventure 2 really did take more skill, I'll say right now that I didn't think it was anywhere near as fun as grinding in Sonic Unleashed. Gaps in rails and hazards like spiked bombs for you to jump over, various points where switching rails is necessary in order to avoid death, enemies chasing and attacking you while you're grinding on rails.. come on now. That's a hell of a lot more interesting.

There is a proper, reliable way to switch back and forth between rails: the directional stick and A. I can do it all day every day, with deaths few and far in between. Ultimately, having greater control tends to come with a greater risk of failure in using or overcoming certain gimmicks like that, so course it's difficult to die in later games; the rails are doing more work. That isn't something to commend as it's partly what makes the current iteration boring.

As for your comments about skill, the ability to bypass rails by using the crouch says nothing about the skill level needed to make the most use of them in terms of strengthening your overall performance and garnering good ranks. You can get through the Racing stages with a skill level that results in all Es. That doesn't mean SA2 is suddenly as easy as Colors. If you're not taking advantage of balancing (which I do admit is bunk, but at any speed) or even the trick system which you've seem to have forgotten, then you're not putting in a real level of effort in utilizing rails anyways, so your comments on that end are negligible.

Also, because of the linear nature of Unleashed gameplay, rails offer nothing the rest of the game doesn't already. If you substituted the rails for road but kept the obstacles the same, the difference in gameplay would be minimal to nonexistent. Ergo, I didn't find them significantly more fun than, well, running on the ground.

Grinding is an excuse to easily extend the lengths of levels. It's stupid and lazy.

Rails don't extend the length of levels anymore than road does. Your point is meaningless.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Nepenthe

[Goldenlink64]

I find it funny that on a forum I go to for an MMO they discuss grinding too, but it's not even the same definition.

Grinding @ MMO site = Fighting and dragging through fights to level up or get something

Grinding @ Sonic site = Sliding down poles

Anyways, I really don't give a shit. :/

I entered the thread with the same mindset thinking that this was going to be a discussion about Unleashed's grinding for Sonic and the Warehog's stats instead...

- If I'm not mistaken, Starlight Carnival and Asteroid Coaster from Sonic Colors were completely devoid of grind rails. Same for Cool Edge from Unleashed.

The Wii Version of Cool Edge had Rails to grind on.

[Indigo Rush]

STOP THE PRESSES.

THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE WAY TO GRIND.

Why Sonic Team hasn't implemented this variety of grinding, I'll never know.

[Chaos Walker]

No, they really should be. There's no excuse for sections like this:

Edited September 28, 2011 by Chaos Walker

[azoo]

Like Exshad had suggested, put Unleashed and SA2 style in a blender. Momentum is good, so allow Sonic to gain momentum by crouching down declines in the rail, and balancing. Easy switching is good, so put the rail switching on the bumpers for easy access. Remove the idea of randomly suspended rails for the most part, and focus on (like SA2) placing them in natural areas like as poles on staircases, on bridge beams, around curves and even powerlines or something like that. For a bit of a challenge in grinding, make rails with layouts functioning much like how they were in Empire City. And for extra thrills whilst grinding, bring back the "do trick on the rail's end" thing from SA2, as well as gimmicky rails like the short vertical ones from Final Rush.

Grinding is a fun and welcome gimmick. Used in an overly high amount with little realism put behind it is when it becomes unfun and a chore.