A Beautiful Union of Two Very Different Worlds

[Nepenthe]

Would anyone care to bring me up to speed on what the hell "parkour" is?

It's amazing that in a world of Google and Wikipedia we still have questions like this.

Parkour...is a method of movement focused on moving around obstacles with speed and efficiency. Originally developed in France, the main purpose of the discipline is to teach participants how to move through their environment by vaulting, rolling, running, climbing and jumping. Traceurs (parkour practitioners) train to be able to identify and utilize alternate or the more efficient paths. Parkour can be practiced anywhere, but areas dense with obstacles offer many different training opportunities. Parkour is often confused with free running, even though these terms refer to distinct disciplines.

[Chaos Walker]

Running and through an area and not stopping. If that means running up a wall and jumping off of it, then so be it. It involves speed, acrobatics, and a good deal of strength, all of which Sonic has.

[Rusty Spy]

So Generations?

See my previous post.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Black Spy

[Chibinuva]

They've been doing this shit for years, it's called parkour. If you translated the definition of Parkour in video game terms, it literally translates to platforming as fast as possible. I am of the firm belief that Sonic has been living the form of parkour since Sonic 1 and has yet to recognize it. He's the fourth Cutie Mark Crusader.

People keep suggesting the gameplay "switching" between a platforming mode and a speed mode, and frankly that kind of fixated, predefined structure really doesn't capture what made Sonic fun. It's not simply the at of going fast, it's going fast, against you're environment. Normal levels in the Genesis games had specific long stretches with lotsa loops for going fast, but what was equally fun was moving fast while going through obstacles and enemies. That feeling of not being restricted with how has you could go within reason. Point I'm trying to make is, forcing the player to stop and go slowly isn't fun and isn't what made the classics fun.

Parkour alternatively, is, by it's very definition, the harmonization of speed and platforming, and pretty much shares it's definition with how Sonic games play.

How do you define a Sonic game: getting from point A to point B as fast as possible through an obstacle.

How do you define parkour: getting from point A to point B as fast as possible through an obstacle.

Sonic CD's intro is Sonic doing parkour, Sonic OVA, parkour. Implement parkour moves and design philosophy into a Sonic game and the rest should do itself. Look at Mirror's Edge. If that were a 3rd person game and had a Sonic skin replacement you could easily call it a Sonic game without most of the insane speed sections and rolling. It's speed, it's platforming, it's flow. Those 3 things, I think define the design philosophy behind a Sonic game, because those are the 3 things that become most apparent when I play a really good level in a Sonic game. Just the speed alone feels just empty and shallow with little juxtaposition. Just platforming is a Mario game. Just and flow is like glue, it holds the two together and makes the player feel comfortable and in control of the game.

YES. I know this was suggested in another topic, and I definitely agree with you that some aspects of it already exist (rolling, plus wall-running and wall-jumping for instance.) I swear if they do this I will love them eternally (and whoever convinces them to do it.)

[Chaos Warp]

Unleashed speed is a game changer. There's no real way to have Unleashed speed without the platforming being separate and, ultimately jarring.

[Chaos Walker]

What if you had a boost that needed a long enough straight section to reach full speed, so you could only attain full Unleashed speed in, I don't know, one or two levels(that had a long enough straight section)?

I think the best way to put that would be to raise Sonic's speed cap. It would mean having a point where his acceleration rate vastly drops, but he IS still increasing in speed.

The Genesis games showed of Sonic's speed by having straight paths at the bottom of donward slopes, or other areas where speed was guarunteed to happen. This continued in 3D for a bit with things like dash pad fests (see whale chase) and super easy down hill running (see G.U.N. chase). Since the introduction of the boost though, we have wanted to be able to actually play the game at high speeds, not just watch or hold one direction like we used to.

I wonder how it would be if there were just parts of the level that told you: "We are going to get faster now. Sonic is going to get harder to controll, and you will be able to do drift and quick-step." This would have to be explained in a tutorial, like: "When you see this symbol, Sonic gets faster and the controls change. When you see this symbol, things go to back to normal."

For example, Sonic gets the the top of a hill, the symbol shows up, and Sonic starts running down as boulders cascade down behind him. Or perhaps he runs on to a street, the symbol shows up, and he suddenly find himself amongst speeding cars and badniks.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Chaos Walker

[MrROBOTO1988]

Platforming, though...now that's a question. The "obvious" answer of jumping on platforms doesn't satisfy me. For one, does it have to be a jump? Imagine a Sonic game with no jump, only a spindash, where every platform had quarter pipes at its ends. Is this not a platformer, just because you use level geometry to convert horizontal speed into vertical speed rather than having a jump button? What about

is it not a platformer because your only ability is to flip gravity?

I think that may be the key word; "gravity". Platforming is a struggle against gravity, one usually fought with jumping, but not exclusively by jumping. If we accept that definition as sufficient, though, we have to accept as platforming a lot of things we wouldn't normally consider. The most relevant example being, in proper Sonic physics, a loop is platforming. Climbing the loop is a struggle against gravity, with your weapon being speed rather than jumping. I'm not sure I'm ready to accept this, but I'm also not sure what my definition is missing (the requirement of leaving the surface? Hm).

I actually find wikipedia's definition of a platform game to be quite encompassing:

A platform game (or platformer) is a video game characterized by requiring the player to jump to and from suspended platforms or over obstacles (jumping puzzles). It must be possible to control these jumps and to fall from platforms or miss jumps. The most common unifying element to games in this video game genre is a jump button; other jump mechanics include swinging from extendable arms, as in Ristar orBionic Commando, or bouncing from springboards or trampolines, as in Alpha Waves. These mechanics, even in the context of other genres, are commonly called platforming, a verbification of platform. Games where jumping is automated completely, such as The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, fall outside of the genre.

I like your VVVVVV example though. That game would likely fall under the platforming genre, but I think it's safe to say it's not your traditional sort of platformer.

[Chibinuva]

I think the best way to put that would be to raise Sonic's speed cap. It would mean having a point where his acceleration rate vastly drops, but he IS still increasing in speed.

The Genesis games showed of Sonic's speed by having straight paths at the bottom of donward slopes, or other areas where speed was guarunteed to happen. This continued in 3D for a bit with things like dash pad fests (see whale chase) and super easy down hill running (see G.U.N. chase). Since the introduction of the boost though, we have wanted to be able to actually play the game at high speeds, not just watch or hold one direction like we used to.

I wonder how it would be if there were just parts of the level that told you: "We are going to get faster now. Sonic is going to get harder to controll, and you will be able to do drift and quick-step." This would have to be explained in a tutorial, like: "When you see this symbol, Sonic gets faster and the controls change. When you see this symbol, things go to back to normal."

For example, Sonic gets the the top of a hill, the symbol shows up, and Sonic starts running down as boulders cascade down behind him. Or perhaps he runs on to a street, the symbol shows up, and he suddenly find himself amongst speeding cars and badniks.

This could work. However, I think they should do something different than just changing the boost mechanic, particularly making it into a parkour game. For instance, keeping the pinball mechanics could work, but making it less automated and requiring more input from the player (other than just QTEs.) For instance, a part where you have to get from one place to another by using homing attacks to jump from one missile to another before killing a robot and crossing a large gap. Heck, even adding less stuff that uses homing attack and adding other moves instead would work (so you wouldn't mainly be relying on homing attack and boost to clear levels.)

[Chaos Walker]

Flying Battery

Hydro City

^Some fan favorite fast levels from the classics. After watching those, I realized that the genesis games pretty much just used 'dash pads' for extra speedy sections too. That's why they were so common in Adventure/2: They were basing it on classic design, and the only way to get full speed was by pushing him, or having him go down a steep incline. A major offender in self playing levels is the fast part of Crisis city. As Sonic has gotten a new capitalization on speed, gameplay was changed to better accomodate play during fast movement. But this sacraficed the use of speed to augment basic platforming, something that now only works in two dimension where you won't need to drift or sidestep.

In summary, the genesis games included speed by creating parts of the level that simply caused it to happen, not where it was ideal for progression. Modern games use speed as the main mode of gameplay, but it kills platforming. Is there a gameplay style that will let us platform, AND go at high speeds while still playing the game? Or are we forever forced to switch between two styles?

[Chibinuva]

Flying Battery

Hydro City

^Some fan favorite fast levels from the classics. After watching those, I realized that the genesis games pretty much just used 'dash pads' for extra speedy sections too. That's why they were so common in Adventure/2: They were basing it on classic design, and the only way to get full speed was by pushing him, or having him go down a steep incline. A major offender in self playing levels is the fast part of Crisis city. As Sonic has gotten a new capitalization on speed, gameplay was changed to better accomodate play during fast movement. But this sacraficed the use of speed to augment basic platforming, something that now only works in two dimension where you won't need to drift or sidestep.

In summary, the genesis games included speed by creating parts of the level that simply caused it to happen, not where it was ideal for progression. Modern games use speed as the main mode of gameplay, but it kills platforming. Is there a gameplay style that will let us platform, AND go at high speeds while still playing the game? Or are we forever forced to switch between two styles?

A) As suggested before, parkour is a good combination of speed and platforming.

I don't mind, hence why I bought Unleashed and Generations. However, maybe they could bring the Werehog back *reflects bullets* and could make him faster, along with improving on some of his moves (maybe adding boost to help with speed.) But think about it, the Werehog used his stretchy arms to platform, with things like grabbing poles, ledges, and moving "enemies," along sprinting to clear larger gaps. By bringing back the werehog, eliminating some (if not all,) of the fighting sections, maybe replace punching with boost, increase speed (faster than before but slower than modern Sonic,) and keep the sprinting and stretchy arms while eliminating some of Sonic's moves like drift and sidestep since it would be as fast. Honestly, I can only think of two reasons why this hasn't been suggested yet:

A) People hate the werehog (well, most people, but some such as myself like him, and they probably wouldn't mind if it meant a good combination of speed and platforming)

Coming up with a story to explain the werehog's return, as well as why he's only partially transformed.

Here are my solutions.

A) As said before, people probably wouldn't mind as much if it was a combination of speed and platforming, and on top of that, he would only be a partial transformation, so he'd not only look more like Sonic, but also retain some of his moves.

Dark Gaia was merely laid to rest, not destroyed. As such, he affects people even when asleep. Perhaps Dark Gaia could become somewhat stronger, and because of Sonic's previous transformation, would be able to transform, but only partially, and as such would look more like regular sonic, but with some of the werehog's features. (such as somewhat larger, stretchy arms, an overbiting fangs, and somewhat furrier,) but retain some of his own features (longer legs, slenderer frame, lighter colored fur.)

LMK what you guys think, as I've wanted the Werehog to come back, and I think this would be pretty sweet.

[Diogenes]

Honestly, I can only think of two reasons why this hasn't been suggested yet:

A) People hate the werehog (well, most people, but some such as myself like him, and they probably wouldn't mind if it meant a good combination of speed and platforming)

Coming up with a story to explain the werehog's return, as well as why he's only partially transformed.

C) For this to be of any use, it needs to be a long-term thing, which means keeping the werehog around, which makes for a pretty huge shift in the gameplay and story of the series. It'd no longer be a series about Sonic, the fastest thing alive, but about Sonic, the half-werewolf with stretchy arms.

Plus the werehog grabbing things is basically just the homing attack anyway.

[Chibinuva]

C) For this to be of any use, it needs to be a long-term thing, which means keeping the werehog around, which makes for a pretty huge shift in the gameplay and story of the series. It'd no longer be a series about Sonic, the fastest thing alive, but about Sonic, the half-werewolf with stretchy arms.

Plus the werehog grabbing things is basically just the homing attack anyway.

Well I meant for at least one game, to shut up all the people complaining about speed and platforming being separate (though as I've pointed about before, they could do a parkour game. "Green HIll's Edge" anyone?) But yeah, I guess it's not that different from homing attack. I mainly just want you to have several different moves so you can do pinball physics without either doing a boost, homing attack, or QTE.

[Chaos Walker]

Parkour is a pretty good example, especially since there is something real to base it on. While it sounds like it might be a fancy fix to the speed and platfroming problem we can't forget about pinball mechanics, the thing that defined Sonic's platforming to begin with. Having a wall jump, and a stomp, and all that stuff is all well and good so long as he can still roll, which does not limit him but exponentialy increases the possbilities. I have one last gripe with parkour though :It doesn't do long term forward speed. Of course the simple fix would be things like chase sequences and running bosses.

[Rusty Spy]

Parkour is a pretty good example, especially since there is something real to base it on.  While it sounds like it might be a fancy fix to the speed and platfroming problem we can't forget about pinball mechanics, the thing that defined Sonic's platforming to begin with.  Having a wall jump, and a stomp, and all that stuff is all well and good so long as he can still roll, which does not limit him but exponentialy increases the possbilities.  I have one last gripe with parkour though :It doesn't do long term forward speed.  Of course the simple fix would be things like chase sequences and running bosses.

Edited September 11, 2011 by Black Spy

[Chaos Walker]

The main purpose of parkour is to implement smooth platforming that doesn't sacrifice speed and flow. The only aspects that would be affected are the platforming and the level design. Anything related to Sonic's ability to go fast is another point entirely.

As we have seen, level design very much affects Sonic's ability to go fast. There's a reason Chemical plant zone feels so much faster than aquatic ruin despite being in the same game. It's not enough to just tweak his acceleration and max speed, there need to be places for him to go straight. With a parkour/ pinball emphasis in the level design, such areas would be included sparingly like they were in the classics, avoiding over linear levels without replay value.

Edited September 11, 2011 by Chaos Walker

[Rusty Spy]

As we have seen, level design very much affects Sonic's ability to go fast.  There's a reason Chemical plant zone feels so much faster than aquatic ruin despite being in the same game.  It's not enough to just tweak his acceleration and max speed, there need to be places for him to go straight.  With a parkour/ pinball emphasis in the level design, such areas would be included sparingly like they were in the classics, avoiding over linear levels without replay value.

Edited September 11, 2011 by Black Spy

[Chaos Walker]

Remember that parkour is not a specific piece of level design, it is a set of moves used to interact with generic set pieces in a level. Parkour is basically an expansion on the jumping aspect of platforming. The amount of emphasis a level has on parkour is dependant on how the level itself is designed, the same way we think about how much platforming any one level has as parkour = platforming.

Edited September 11, 2011 by Chaos Walker