A Beautiful Union of Two Very Different Worlds

[Chaos Walker]

There is no other way for Sonic, in all of the formulas he's been privy to, to go fast without some semblance of horizontal or somewhat barren roads, or a series of ramps, or an automatic contraption of some sort. What we need is a completely different formula and- surprise surprise- no one here, funnily enough the angriest and most vocal of opponents, are actually concerned with thinking up any such ideas where speed and platforming are truly harmonized, as that would truly be the way to getting rid of lines altogether. It always boils down to "return classic/Adventure level design!!!" which isn't solving a goddamn thing. =/

I keep trying to make suggestions for this, but my posts end up ignored. So maybe starting a topic JUST for this will help out. Warning: THIS TOPIC IS NOT ABOUT WHETHER THE BOOST SHOULD EXIST OR NOT. I WANT ZERO BOOST FLAME WARS. k? Thanks.

The topic here is: How can platforming and speed truly come together? Can you have both at once, or must they stay seperate? If seperate, then how should that be handled?

Personally, I think having both at once requires too much skill. Platforming at high speed gets reduced to memorization, which is what gets labelled as fake difficulty. Sonic team is doing their darnd'st to have both, but right now they are keeping them seperate. And personaly, I think that is the way to go. But instead of having 2D flip to 3D, we would have 3D platforming shift to 3D speed. Imagine a level that looks like this:

Start in regular 3D mode. Lalalala. Casual running. Exploring. Complex enemies that can only be hit from one side, as well as generic simple ones. Oh look. A gigantic slope... guess it's time to go seriously effing fast. Wooo! My face is comming off! Look out for that boulder! Wooo! Well, that was fun. Wow, the roses actually do smell good when you stop to smell them. Who knew? Say, has that bonus stage ring always been there? Man, I just love using my spindash to get through loop-de-loops. Whoops, looks like I'm caught in traffic. Better dodge these cars. Yep. Look out for that hole the road! Oh no, flying badnicks. Man, I love running. Time for some exploration. Oh my, look an item hidden under a rock! Ooh, I've never seen this path before. Oh no, tricky platforming. I guess it's over. ... OH NO! A GIANT ANIMAL/ROCK! GO FAAAAAAST! DODGE THIS! DODGE THAT! AAAAAH! Whew. That was cool. Can't wait to do it all again.

[Blue Blood]

The topic here is: How can platforming and speed truly come together?

See Megadrive games.

[Noir]

See Megadrive games.

There's literally no other answer.

It's been done before.

It's almost somewhat baffling that so far it hasn't been done again. Hopefully Generations will fix that, in the classic levels at least.

[Chaos Walker]

See Megadrive games.

Really? Cuz they arn't 3D, and everyone seems to be telling me that Unleashed/ Colors is more exhilerating in terms of speed, so I think we could stand to have a little more zoom. If playing the classics again is good enough for you, then great, but I'm talking new games. That mentality is why platforming was only in the 2D sections of colors. We are talking TRUE union here. Full 3D. I should have specified.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

See Megadrive games.

There's literally no other answer.

It's been done before.

It's almost somewhat baffling that so far it hasn't been done again. Hopefully Generations will fix that, in the classic levels at least.

Are the Megadrive games 3D as was mentioned in the OP, or did you two completely overlook/disregard everything else that was mentioned?

To answer the OP, the solution is a bit difficult to figure out how to mesh the two together, and that's where the lack of input comes from. No one really knows where to start, and very few of us have any experience with designing a game.

The best answer I can say is that it's possible, but you'd have to completely re-invent the gameplay to where it can work. Some people have pressed their ideas in a number of topics to get a grasp of how they would do it, but there's not much of anything that shows it coming into fruition. Azukara could probably come in and fill his thoughts on whether it is possible, since he's one of the members who's been involving himself in this sort of thing.

But coming up with a solution to combine these elements are as easy as we would think they are.

[Noir]

So do the same thing but in 3D.

I said in the boost topic: the great thing about the classic was that they always had a middle path that was simple and easy to speed through, an upper path with difficult platforming but plenty of powerups and rings, and a lower path that sometimes punished you for falling or sometimes had some rewards, depending on the level.

I don't imagine it's too hard to just make levels that are three tiered like that rather than the straight lines with slightly branching paths that have become a new staple of the series. That way the people who want to just run through the like they're playing a racing game have their part of the level and people who actually want to do platforming in their platforming game can go to the top of the level and do it there. The switching between each style also helps to keep the game interesting and makes it so that you play the level in the same way less often, unlike Unleashed where you're rewarded for memorizing specific routes.

[Blue Blood]

Are the Megadrive games 3D as was mentioned in the OP, or did you two completely overlook/disregard everything else that was mentioned?

3D mentioned where? The OP just asked about how to balance speed and platforming and used a 3D game example.

The thing is, you can do what the MD games did in 3D anyway. Speed just has to be toned down some to a more manageable level.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Blue Blood

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

3D mentioned where? The OP just asked about how to balance speed and platforming and used a 3D game example.

Let me help:

But instead of having 2D flip to 3D, we would have 3D platforming shift to 3D speed. Imagine a level that looks like this:

The thing is, you can do what the MD games did in 3D anyway. Speed just has to be toned down some to a more manageable level.

Speed isn't the whole equation to the issue, it's just a variable like platforming, physics, and the surroundings around you. If you could do that in 3D, then's it's a wonder why the 3D games were completely different from the 2D ones in those very areas.

Even worse, it's a wonder why they didn't do that in the first place the first time!

They're currently a hundred times faster than they were before. The physics have you doing far more than going up, down, left, or right, and the surroundings haven't been as multitiered as they were for their 2D counterparts to where platforming needs you to be a lot more precise unless you actually slip and fall down an abyss below.

So do the same thing but in 3D.

You honestly think it's that easy? You don't seem to know much about how designing that kind of thing would even work, because it's not a simple matter of doing the same thing in 3D. If it was, then why didn't we get it the first time in the Adventures?! Sonic Team wasn't as incompetent during that time than they were after SA2-Heroes, and if it was that easy, we would've already had it.

An extra dimension comes with extra hurdles, and were that not the case this discussion would've never came into fruition since Sonic Team wouldn't have had any problems. Every fan would've had solid gold game documents detailing it and with very little effort to the point that they would've already been in Sonic Team by now.

Edited September 7, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Chaos Walker]

So do the same thing but in 3D.

My god. I never thought of it that way. I'd better go tell Sonic Team.

I'm not usually the sort for sarcasm. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

The thing is, you can do what the MD games did in 3D anyway. Speed just has to be toned down some to a more manageable level.

But people want the boost. Especially the newer fans. And to be honest, I feel like that is dodgeing the problem: "We can't do speed and platforming? Slow it down then." You need to keep the platforming without sacraficeing the speed, hence the difficulty.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Chaos Walker

[Noir]

You honestly think it's that easy? You don't seem to know much about how designing that kind of thing would even work, because it's not a simple matter of doing the same thing in 3D.

An extra dimension comes with extra hurdles, and were that not the case this discussion would've never came into fruition since Sonic Team wouldn't have had any problems. Every fan would've had solid gold game documents detailing it and with very little effort to the point that they would've already been in Sonic Team by now.

Of course I don't know how designing a game works; that's not my job.

But let's take Heroes for an example, just because. A lot of the levels were straight lines. Cool. Make that the "middle" section of the level. Instead of bottomless pits, put a few platforms down there. Awesome, you have a "bottom" section. Put a few springs or homing attack chains or secret paths or something, have them lead to some platforms in the sky where there are lots of lives and rings and whatever but you've got to be careful to reach them. There's your "top."

You're done. As far as design goes, it's a matter of adding two more layers to the levels. I don't know how difficult that is to program or something, but it's a very simple idea anyway.

[Blue Blood]

But people want the boost. Especially the newer fans. And to be honest, I feel like that is dodgeing the problem: "We can't do speed and platforming? Slow it down then." You need to keep the platforming without sacraficeing the speed, hence the difficulty.

Without trying to steer the discussion too much over to the boost, other people don't want it. It's not dodging any problem. You need to have speed to make it Sonic, but Unleashed speed is a game changer. There's no real way to have Unleashed speed without the platforming being separate and, ultimately jarring.

GHZ from SA2 meshes platforming and speed really well- and in 3D to boot. It's not without it's fair share of problems mind (most of which stem from it being direct 2D to 3D transformation), but all blends together seamlessly.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Blue Blood

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Of course I don't know how designing a game works; that's not my job.

That's not my job either...yet. But even then, don't reply "So do it in 3D" when you have know idea how it works. That's a sign of sheer ignorance, and will make your point less than credible.

But let's take Heroes for an example, just because. A lot of the levels were straight lines. Cool. Make that the "middle" section of the level. Instead of bottomless pits, put a few platforms down there. Awesome, you have a "bottom" section. Put a few springs or homing attack chains or secret paths or something, have them lead to some platforms in the sky where there are lots of lives and rings and whatever but you've got to be careful to reach them. There's your "top."

Heroes has got to be the poorest example. Unleashed actually does a much better job at that and it still doesn't come anywhere close to what the Genesis games were like. It has straight lines, a middle section, a bottom section, and a top section which lead to some platforms in the sky and a number lives and rings and such, of which you have to be careful to reach them, and yet it still fall short in accomplishing the same feel as the Genesis.

Once again, it's not a simple as adding something to it. You're going to need to re-make some things into many forms to get the same feel, of which it hasn't been accomplished to where we look at it as the very "3D version of the Genesis games" you said earlier.

You're done. As far as design goes, it's a matter of adding two more layers to the levels. I don't know how difficult that is to program or something, but it's a very simple idea anyway.

The idea may be simple, but the execution is a different story and it's the very thing that makes or breaks the initial idea.

[Diogenes]

First order of business is to define our terms.

Speed, I think, is obvious enough that I don't need to state a definition. All I have to add is that speed does not necessarily mean Unleashed-boosting-speed; there's a whole continuum between merely quick and supersonic, and the failure of one to not mesh properly does not necessarily indict all others.

Platforming, though...now that's a question. The "obvious" answer of jumping on platforms doesn't satisfy me. For one, does it have to be a jump? Imagine a Sonic game with no jump, only a spindash, where every platform had quarter pipes at its ends. Is this not a platformer, just because you use level geometry to convert horizontal speed into vertical speed rather than having a jump button? What about

is it not a platformer because your only ability is to flip gravity?

I think that may be the key word; "gravity". Platforming is a struggle against gravity, one usually fought with jumping, but not exclusively by jumping. If we accept that definition as sufficient, though, we have to accept as platforming a lot of things we wouldn't normally consider. The most relevant example being, in proper Sonic physics, a loop is platforming. Climbing the loop is a struggle against gravity, with your weapon being speed rather than jumping. I'm not sure I'm ready to accept this, but I'm also not sure what my definition is missing (the requirement of leaving the surface? Hm).

So in defining terms I've already linked speed and platforming. Speed is the weapon with which to fight gravity to achieve platforming. What we need to do is get some ramps and take this hedgehog off some sweet jumps.

[Blue Blood]

What we need to do is get some ramps and take this hedgehog off some sweet jumps.

Allow me to add to this- non-scripted jumps.

[Nepenthe]

You cannot platform at high speeds, thus making the marriage people like to talk about a bit of a misnomer. The "speed" at which Sonic traditionally platforms at can be found in Mario and Donkey Kong games, and last I recall, they're not speedy platformers. The highest speeds attainable in the games are separated for good reason. To have raw speed and tight platforming occur at the same time, you need unorthodox platforming that facilitates a constant gathering of speed depending upon your precision. This needs to be designed so that low-level entrants don't have to learn high-level speed-run tricks to keep going. Also, this design needs present throughout the entire level; in other words, not stopping should be possible.

Edit: Oh hey, you used my post to springboard from! I know I'm late in noticing that, but still. Wiggy.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Nepenthe

[Chaos Walker]

I agree that both at once is too hard to implement. The only way I think it COULD work is if the speed was used only to defy physics to get you to new places, like running up/along walls, doing loop-de-loops, pefroming ramp assisted jumps, etc.

Otherwise, I really don't mind having the game switch every once in a while like it is now.

Adventure, adventure, adventure, Unleashed, adventure, adventure, unleashed, adventure, adventure, adventure, Unleashed, end.

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

Well I think that the boost

I suppose that the most manageable way to execute the tiered level format would be to expand on Unleashed's branching paths. The problem with the Unleashed paths is that they end rather quickly and are only usually good for a medal or somesuch. Therefore, I propose digging up our old friend, the Special Stage, and re-integrating it into modern play.

Now, given how easy it is to get rings in the newer games, let's say you need 100 rings to satisfy Special Stage conditions. Once you have your rings, passing a checkpoint would give you an option to go into Special Mode (with button prompt, if need be). The game would then distort the world about you, reshaping it into a rather crazy shell of its former self. Special Mode would provide the player with harder platforming challenges, but ultimately greater rewards in the form of rings or medals or whathaveyou.

If the player manages to make it to the end of the level in Special, they could be rewarded with some shiny bauble that gives them some sort of permanent power-up, in the form of a slight speed upgrade or something of that sort. If the player should fail their quest, however, they'd be dropped back in the game proper, and have to gather up 100 more rings should they wish to make a second attempt.

It definitely needs fleshing out, but I'm still recovering from my first day back to school.

[Chaos Walker]

Well I think that the boost

I suppose that the most manageable way to execute the tiered level format would be to expand on Unleashed's branching paths. The problem with the Unleashed paths is that they end rather quickly and are only usually good for a medal or somesuch. Therefore, I propose digging up our old friend, the Special Stage, and re-integrating it into modern play.

Now, given how easy it is to get rings in the newer games, let's say you need 100 rings to satisfy Special Stage conditions. Once you have your rings, passing a checkpoint would give you an option to go into Special Mode (with button prompt, if need be). The game would then distort the world about you, reshaping it into a rather crazy shell of its former self. Special Mode would provide the player with harder platforming challenges, but ultimately greater rewards in the form of rings or medals or whathaveyou.

If the player manages to make it to the end of the level in Special, they could be rewarded with some shiny bauble that gives them some sort of permanent power-up, in the form of a slight speed upgrade or something of that sort. If the player should fail their quest, however, they'd be dropped back in the game proper, and have to gather up 100 more rings should they wish to make a second attempt.

It definitely needs fleshing out, but I'm still recovering from my first day back to school.

I love this 8 ways to Sunday. I'm not entirely sure about the specifics of what you mentioned, but making the boost an upgrade would certainly do something for the level design. Imagine this: The levels are designed as if the boost is not there, so we get mid speed platforming levels with tiered paths and exploration. Then when you get good, you can unlock the boost, which lets you use the speed you are now skilled enough to handle. Crazy? I think so. Genius? It just might be.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Chaos Walker

[Rusty Spy]

They've been doing this shit for years, it's called parkour. If you translated the definition of Parkour in video game terms, it literally translates to platforming as fast as possible. I am of the firm belief that Sonic has been living the form of parkour since Sonic 1 and has yet to recognize it. He's the fourth Cutie Mark Crusader.

People keep suggesting the gameplay "switching" between a platforming mode and a speed mode, and frankly that kind of fixated, predefined structure really doesn't capture what made Sonic fun. It's not simply the at of going fast, it's going fast, against you're environment. Normal levels in the Genesis games had specific long stretches with lotsa loops for going fast, but what was equally fun was moving fast while going through obstacles and enemies. That feeling of not being restricted with how has you could go within reason. Point I'm trying to make is, forcing the player to stop and go slowly isn't fun and isn't what made the classics fun.

Parkour alternatively, is, by it's very definition, the harmonization of speed and platforming, and pretty much shares it's definition with how Sonic games play.

How do you define a Sonic game: getting from point A to point B as fast as possible through an obstacle.

How do you define parkour: getting from point A to point B as fast as possible through an obstacle.

Sonic CD's intro is Sonic doing parkour, Sonic OVA, parkour. Implement parkour moves and design philosophy into a Sonic game and the rest should do itself. Look at Mirror's Edge. If that were a 3rd person game and had a Sonic skin replacement you could easily call it a Sonic game without most of the insane speed sections and rolling. It's speed, it's platforming, it's flow. Those 3 things, I think define the design philosophy behind a Sonic game, because those are the 3 things that become most apparent when I play a really good level in a Sonic game. Just the speed alone feels just empty and shallow with little juxtaposition. Just platforming is a Mario game. Just and flow is like glue, it holds the two together and makes the player feel comfortable and in control of the game.

[Kuzu]

The problem with Unleashed is that its platforming sections are sandwiched between speed sections, so it kind of breaks the flow a lot. I admit that the Genesis games did a better job at mixing the two together, but you simply can't take what was in those games and transfer it over to 3D, not without a lot of trial and error at least.

Really, its all in the level designs

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

I love this 8 ways to Sunday. I'm not entirely sure about the specifics of what you mentioned, but making the boost an upgrade would certainly do something for the level design. Imagine this: The levels are designed as if the boost is not there, so we get mid speed platforming levels with tiered paths and exploration. Then when you get good, you can unlock the boost, which lets you use the speed you are now skilled enough to handle. Crazy? I think so. Genius? It just might be.

Something like that might work. You'd need to give the boost to the player in increments though. Give the meter an upgrade every time they ace special, or something.

I can see the vanilla game working more casually, being a rather intermediate but fair sort of deal, giving the player the freedom to boost wherever they please, should they wish. Special would encourage players to slow down to accommodate trickier jumps, but overall not punish the player too badly if they decide to boost. Just give them a little more challenge.

[Kuzu]

They've been doing this shit for years, it's called parkour. If you translated the definition of Parkour in video game terms, it literally translates to platforming as fast as possible. I am of the firm belief that Sonic has been living the form of parkour since Sonic 1 and has yet to recognize it. He's the fourth Cutie Mark Crusader.

People keep suggesting the gameplay "switching" between a platforming mode and a speed mode, and frankly that kind of fixated, predefined structure really doesn't capture what made Sonic fun. It's not simply the at of going fast, it's going fast, against you're environment. Normal levels in the Genesis games had specific long stretches with lotsa loops for going fast, but what was equally fun was moving fast while going through obstacles and enemies. That feeling of not being restricted with how has you could go within reason. Point I'm trying to make is, forcing the player to stop and go slowly isn't fun and isn't what made the classics fun.

Parkour alternatively, is, by it's very definition, the harmonization of speed and platforming, and pretty much shares it's definition with how Sonic games play.

How do you define a Sonic game: getting from point A to point B as fast as possible through an obstacle.

How do you define parkour: getting from point A to point B as fast as possible through an obstacle.

Sonic CD's intro is Sonic doing parkour, Sonic OVA, parkour. Implement parkour moves and design philosophy into a Sonic game and the rest should do itself. Look at Mirror's Edge. If that were a 3rd person game and had a Sonic skin replacement you could easily call it a Sonic game without most of the insane speed sections and rolling. It's speed, it's platforming, it's flow. Those 3 things, I think define the design philosophy behind a Sonic game, because those are the 3 things that become most apparent when I play a really good level in a Sonic game. Just the speed alone feels just empty and shallow with little juxtaposition. Just platforming is a Mario game. Just and flow is like glue, it holds the two together and makes the player feel comfortable and in control of the game.

So would you call Unleashed parkour then?

I do agree though, Parkour is pretty much Sonic's forte its pretty much the best way to define his type of platforming, and pretty much what the Genesis games were. You're constantly moving, never slowing down, avoiding every obstacle in your way and try to keep your flow as nice as possible.

[Rusty Spy]

So would you call Unleashed parkour then?

When it was done well such as in the DLC levels, yes pretty much. Only problem was that A] Levels like these were few and far between (from what I've seen of the game), and B] the majority of the levels and the game itself entirely revolved around simply going boost-bananas and the controls and level design were built around said boost.

The thing is, it may LOOK like parkour, but it isn't because it doesn't really incorporate it into it's design, the examples seen in Unleashed were an accidental blend of those two elements mingling together in just the right way, which pretty much reinforces my notion that Sonic is a parkour game just WAITING to happen. He has all the right ingredients in his core design but they aren't being put together in that specific way. It's like making a pasta dish made out of ground beef, with a ketchup and cheese sauce. It's not a cheeseburger, but some bites taste like a cheeseburger.

[Kuzu]

When it was done well such as in the DLC levels, yes pretty much. Only problem was that A] Levels like these were few and far between (from what I've seen of the game), and B] the majority of the levels and the game itself entirely revolved around simply going boost-bananas and the controls and level design were built around said boost.

The thing is, it may LOOK like parkour, but it isn't because it doesn't really incorporate it into it's design, the examples seen in Unleashed were an accidental blend of those two elements mingling together in just the right way, which pretty much reinforces my notion that Sonic is a parkour game just WAITING to happen. He has all the right ingredients in his core design but they aren't being put together in that specific way. It's like making a pasta dish made out of ground beef, with a ketchup and cheese sauce. It's not a cheeseburger, but some bites taste like a cheeseburger.

So Generations?

[Soniman]

Would anyone care to bring me up to speed on what the hell "parkour" is?