Would the American story have been better

[Phos]

Bah, "Eggman Empire" is better than both of 'em.

You can have both. I'd like to see Robotnik be treated as a name (rather than a plot point) and Eggman treated as a title. So he would be called Robotnik by other characters, but thing he created would fall under the "Eggman" brand.

[Dr. Mechano]

I may despise the concept of humans co-existing in Sonic's world, but I command Archie for their story development. The writers actually invest thier efforts to give the humans some exposition unlike Sega of Japan who randomly throws them in the games with no explaination. I'll even admit that Archie rendered Shadow and Rouge's character to the point of being likeable.

No explanation? What explanation do they need? They've simply always existed.

They didn't appear in the older games because NPCs in general didn't appear. I mean, for Eggman to exist, humans have to exist. Eggman couldn't just spontaneously appear out of nothing, with no human family. It's all or nothing- Eggman is a human, and his existence confirms the existence of other humans.

Also, Witchcart. She was before Sonic Adventure supposedly introduced non-Eggman humans as well.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You're underestimating how different the US and Japanese stories are. The US story focused a lot on crap that didn't actually have anything to do with the plot. In the US story, Sonic and Robotnik both have origin stories. Early version of these stories have them taking place in Kansas. Sonic (currently named Sonny) "learned" his super speed from Johnny Lightfoot, his jumping prowess from Sally, and his Spin Attack accidentally in an incident involving the chicken who"s name escapes me.

Reeeheeaally?

I wonder what the heck I've been reading? Oh well, I still don't think it would've changed anything...It's not like the western version was good from the start, at least the way I look at it.

[a knothole resident]

Weather it was the early games or 90s cartoons, Robotnik being the only human is what made his character intriguing. We all knew he didn’t spawn out of nothingness, but after reading his lineage in the comics, he and other overlanders experienced alot of hardships during the Great War.

Edited April 28, 2009 by a knothole resident

[Dr. Mechano]

Weather it was the early games or 90s cartoons, Robotnik being the only human is what made his character intriguing. We all knew he didn

Edited April 28, 2009 by El Gran Gordo

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Weather it was the early games or 90s cartoons, Robotnik being the only human is what made his character intriguing.

Well if it was the games it didn't matter anyway. Nobody gave that much of a care during the 1990s on how or why Eggman was the only human, nor did they give that much of a care about whatever he had (or lacked) as a character.

If it was the 90s cartoons...they still didn't exactly care, as those who watched them as kids couldn't care less so long as we saw Sonic tear up the place he was in.

We all knew he didn’t spawn out of nothingness, but after reading his lineage in the comics, he and other overlanders experienced alot of hardships during the Great War.

If only that happened in the games instead of the comics.

[Dr. Mechano]

Well if it was the games it didn't matter anyway. Nobody gave that much of a care during the 1990s on how or why Eggman was the only human, nor did they give that much of a care about whatever he had (or lacked) as a character.

If it was the 90s cartoons...they still didn't exactly care, as those who watched them as kids couldn't care less so long as we saw Sonic tear up the place he was in.

Not that this applied to the cartoons either.

AoStH, like the modern games, had random humans all over the place. Robotnik even had a high-school crush on Lucinda, one of said humans. In a way, AoStH predicted the future games- Humans and animals living together in modern cities, although it had about as many animals as it did humans. But still, non-Robotnik humans played a recurring role on AoStH.

SatAM had Lazaar the wizard, who still counts.

[Sean]

There wouldn't have been any difference. For one, every game before Sonic Adventure has been largely inconsequential to whatever overarching plot the 3D games have attempted, barring some minute, ignorable references such as MHZ or Sonic CD. If I cared about canon anymore like I did in the past, I'd say that the games before and after SA1 were two entirely separate canons, and that SA1 was a complete reboot of the franchise. In fact, it probably was.

The old games' stories never had an effect on the current ones, and they wouldn't have even if the American storylines had taken over somehow.

[Badnik Zero]

With the human discussion going on, I'd like to bring it up again that the game canon has no furry NPCs. This upsets me to no end. I know there's more anthros living out there on Sonic's Earth, we just wont see them until they have hoverboard contests to join or their corner of the world is at stake. Where are all the other Mobians. That's something from the Western canons I would have saved.

[Dr. Mechano]

With the human discussion going on, I'd like to bring it up again that the game canon has no furry NPCs. This upsets me to no end. I know there's more anthros living out there on Sonic's Earth, we just wont see them until they have hoverboard contests to join or their corner of the world is at stake. Where are all the other Mobians. That's something from the Western canons I would have saved.

Well, they wouldn't even logically be called Mobians.

I mean, the humans from AoStH would be "Mobians" because they lived in Mobius. Just throwing that out there.

[Sean]

Sonic Adventure had the echidna clan.

Also, it's probably a lot easier to design human characters than animal ones. Humans are what we see everyday, and among the crowd, we don't distinguish between them whatsoever.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Also, it's probably a lot easier to design human characters than animal ones. Humans are what we see everyday, and among the crowd, we don't distinguish between them whatsoever.

I wouldn't really say that actually, considering how a lot of the NPC of Sonic Unleashed differed massively from one another in style and form. They really made each one stand out, and you can easily tell who's who by one single glance after your first meet.

And depending on what factors impede them from making said anthro NPC, I'd even argue that they're not that hard to design if you're trying to make them stand out.

[Badnik Zero]

I mean, the humans from AoStH would be "Mobians" because they lived in Mobius. Just throwing that out there.

I sometimes refer to the minor furries of the series as Mobians. Just because they exist in the Mobius continuity and not in the games. I know they wouldn't really be from Mobius if they appeared in games. I guess that was a little confusing.

Sonic Adventure had the echidna clan.

And I didn't think of the Ancient Echidnas. But that's not even humans and anthros living together, that's a dead civilization that may not have even had human contact. I guess I look at a universe like the Zelda series, and we have all these exotic people living in towns and getting along in the world, but when it comes to the Sonic series which is about a hedgehog, all we have is humans and a handful of animal friends. It gives them too much superhero persona, IMO. Where are the ordinary animals in the Sonic universe? Did they disappear like the Echinda clans? It's the same question people asked about Robotnik in the classics, all over again.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Badnikz

[Nattala]

I doubt changing the story/setting of the Sonic games to that of a more American influence would be "better", really today the story isn't the problem but the gameplay and making it more like American Sonic would have had little impact. The question is would the American story have had the same appeal? Sure it was popular in the days of the classics but would it have attracted the same kind of fans you can find in the fanbase today? Many modern fans came in through SA2 but how different been if it had used American story instead? Were people drawn in simply from the gameplay or did the story play a part in cementing their fandom too? Would the American story have the same effect?

Its hard to say but it certainly would have been different.

But really the Sonic we have today has been influenced by both the Japanese and American stories. The Japanese influences are more obvious but the American influences are there. It is impossible not to be influenced by the other interpretations of Sonic. Besides lets not forget that without SOA Sonic would be in a band and have a girlfriend named Madonna.

[Gamenerd]

I would have to respond with an emphantic YES. Sonic would be a major hit and be placed next to other revered franchises like Metal Gear and Halo. He wouldnt be the butt of the gaming industry and instead be more respected and treated with dignity. The insufferable storyline the Japanese has forcing down our throats for the past decade is a huge failure and the cause of Sonic's downfall. Sega of Japan just needs to learn how to compromise with their other branches and allow their neglected yet more developed characters have a shot in the games.

So what you're saying is that they could fix the big problems of the series - camera problems, linearity, deviating too far from the standard formula (e.g. Werehog), voice acting, restricted development under SAMMY's influence, glitches, overuse of brand, and lacklustre stage layouts - just by throwing in some crap from the SATAM/Archie canon's?

I think you're far too blinded by nostalgia for your own good; you associated Sonic with words like "Knothole", "Robotnik" and "Freedom Fighters" for years, and then when the confirmed absence of these elements in the games (there was no real story pre-1998) coincided with the decline in quality of gameplay, part of your mind associated the two factors as somehow being cause and effect.

[Sean]

I wouldn't really say that actually, considering how a lot of the NPC of Sonic Unleashed differed massively from one another in style and form. They really made each one stand out, and you can easily tell who's who by one single glance after your first meet.

And depending on what factors impede them from making said anthro NPC, I'd even argue that they're not that hard to design if you're trying to make them stand out.

I think any anthro NPC is going to stand out no matter what. What I meant about it being easier to create human NPCs is that all humans share much more common features with one another than anthros do. Sure, you can tweak their skin color, their eye shape, their height and thickness, but they're all built upon the same mannequin. Making anthro characters takes a new level of effort, one the designers may not want to indulge upon. First, you have to judge their species, and then adapt them to your style to accommodate that. It'd be pretty easy to churn out hedgehog recolors, but then everybody is going to want different species, and then we're probably going to be needing wolves and giraffes, which are unlike anything we've seen in the series among Sonic's main cast.

When I draw, it's easier for me to make up a well-designed human on the spot than it is for an anthro. Humans are just easier to churn out than furries are if you want a multitude of inconsequential background characters.

Also, SA1's anime style fit surprisingly well in the Sonicverse, but Sonic 2006 went fucking overboard. Unleashed was perfect. I don't care whether they have humans or furries, just as long as the style fits and is cool to look at.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Sailor Jakey

[Mollfie]

I never read the manuals lol I just made up the story that the Robotnik was up to no good and Sonic didn't want him to spoil the countryside and steal baby animals!

I don't like the idea of Sonic being a hero. I like him simply being a hedgehog who doesn't like being pushed around and having his freedom compromised.

[Dr. Mechano]

The only American storyline I could tolerate was AoStH, if only because it didn't melodramatically try to take itself too seriously. But even I don't want the games to be like that.

SatAM puts me off. Aside from its portrayal of Robotnik, it goes deeper than that. It's essentially "The good, pure, perfectly always right animals fighting to beat the big, bad, completely evil and unsympathetic human." There's no complexity whatsoever in a completely black-and-white struggle like this- It feels like a heavyhanded jab at humanity, which makes no sense if the animals are essentially portrayed with all the intelligence of humans(and logically, all their foibles and flaws) themselves.

This is one reason that, as far as American storylines, I vastly preferred AoStH to SatAM. It had human and animal citizens peacefully coexisting in what was essentially a cartoonier, off-model Sega world. Though of course I prefer the Japanese storylines (Games, OVA, X, etc.) overall for taking this a step further and giving Eggman more of a developed backstory(In the case of the games and X at least. OVA doesn't really explain his lineage, but it was an hour long, so.)

[Kiljoy]

The only American storyline I could tolerate was AoStH, if only because it didn't melodramatically try to take itself too seriously. But even I don't want the games to be like that.

SatAM puts me off. Aside from its portrayal of Robotnik, it goes deeper than that. It's essentially "The good, pure, perfectly always right animals fighting to beat the big, bad, completely evil and unsympathetic human." There's no complexity whatsoever in a completely black-and-white struggle like this- It feels like a heavyhanded jab at humanity, which makes no sense if the animals are essentially portrayed with all the intelligence of humans(and logically, all their foibles and flaws) themselves.

This is one reason that, as far as American storylines, I vastly preferred AoStH to SatAM. It had human and animal citizens peacefully coexisting in what was essentially a cartoonier, off-model Sega world. Though of course I prefer the Japanese storylines (Games, OVA, X, etc.) overall for taking this a step further and giving Eggman more of a developed backstory(In the case of the games and X at least. OVA doesn't really explain his lineage, but it was an hour long, so.)

uhhmm I think you may have read too far into it. I watched it as a Sonic cartoon wich just happened to have some pro environmental messages, but didn't push them on you and ruin it. Compared to cartoons today and how they do it I prefer SatAM. I don't see it as human bad animal good, but Robotnik bad, Sonic and friends good. Plus I think this was the best Robotnik of them all, you say he was two dimensional and the game character was more developed, but I say simply adding a good side does not mean he is more developed. The SatAM Robotnik was developed and genuinely evil, that's why I prefer him.

[The Adventurer]

I like the world being semi-realistic. I also like the idea that Robotnik can field his armies and weapons independently. So no, I wouldn't have liked the american story so much.

[Dr. Mechano]

A prospective "What if" question, relevant to the topic, might be: Would the franchise have been better off using the Japanese story in all territories from the very start?

I'm not really concerned with the Eggman/Robotnik name debacle so much as I am the look and feel of the characters and their personalities.

For example, knowing Robotnik was supposed to look like this, even in America in the early 90s:

Could've led to a whole different breed of Sonic pop culture, such as the cartoons and comics being more on-model to the games for starters.

Indeed, the shift to the Adventure series would've been a simple change of clothes for the characters(And more dialog of course) rather than an awkward transition for people who took the cartoons' plot as relevant to the games.

[SchemingMinor]

uhhmm I think you may have read too far into it. I watched it as a Sonic cartoon wich just happened to have some pro environmental messages, but didn't push them on you and ruin it. Compared to cartoons today and how they do it I prefer SatAM. I don't see it as human bad animal good, but Robotnik bad, Sonic and friends good. Plus I think this was the best Robotnik of them all, you say he was two dimensional and the game character was more developed, but I say simply adding a good side does not mean he is more developed. The SatAM Robotnik was developed and genuinely evil, that's why I prefer him.

Uhh, buddy? I totally got that message. And I was SIX at the time too and didn't read too far into it. You must also remember that at the time that Sonic (O.K., it was really Knuckles too.) was my favourite character and Robotnik was written off as a complete tyrant and douchebag with a technopunk dystopian future and a penchant to pollute and kill any living thing, basically the ramming of the popular idea of animals vs. humans (remember, this was the 90's where the destruction of the rainforest was constantly being drilled into our heads, and in popular media at that time most of the humans were being portrayed as the evil icky villains that wanted to slash and burn the cute, innocent animal's habitat.) The reason why as I recalled from my days of youth is that the American manual presented him in this form alongside other promotional materials and media forms. It wasn't until my best friend told me that he was also called "Eggman" in Japan that I was blown away. I always thought he was the real Robotnik and that Japan copied us (remember, kid logic here).

And SatAM Robotnik was like a cardboard cutout of any other run-of-the mill villain from (insert 90's cartoon show here). Whether you like to hear it or not, he had no redeeming values far from that. Sure I hesitantly admired him, and yes he had personality, but the man lacked substance and originality. You don't need to be pure evil to acquire great characterization status as I recall. If you love him, great, I'm not going to hold that or your opinion against you, but that's the bare bones of it.

[redmenace]

I prefer the current games version. Sonic and Eggman are way more interesting in the Japanese version than in the American, where one is a yes-man and the other a bland villain. I always liked the setting being an Earth as well, just to show that polution and nature abuse can cause a lot of trouble to everyone. That struck me when I was a kid and I was concerned with the environment since then, because I didn't want little Sonic's getting sick for the sake of evolution. Ah, sweet things when we are kids. Not to mention the colourful and funky setting of the Japanese one, which contrast with the bland one we've got on the cartoons and comics, which is ironic as hell, since the Japanese is set on Earth and the American is set on a fictional and yet looks more realistic than the first. I'm glad I'm European and I didn't get exposed to America's version when I was young, only when I was older and curious. I don't feel any sympathy for the American Sonic or any kind of feeling for American Eggman either. They're very blandand not original. Not to mention Tails, who is "one of the team" in the American, and the sidekick in the Japanese.

At this time, changing the storyline would only lead to confusion, like the Americans were when SA was released. I think it would be worse. And it's not the storyline that it's broken with the franchise. Quite frankly, I don't think the franchise is that broken. It needs more respect from both parts and a bit more work from both parts as well. The storyline isn't the problem here. It needs no patch up. Unleashed's portrait of Earth and humans was very good, as was Sonic 1 to a degree. All very colourful and not very serious, yet, problems in the suposedly ideal world still arise.

No, Im being serious. If the Archie Comics went out of publication during the Sonic Adventure 2 era I wouldve left this fanbase. Nothing in this decade has be of quality value aside from the portable games (which really isnt saying much.) In fact, I would say that Archie Comics is keeping the franchise on life support. Otherwise, I can safely bet that the marjority of the old school fans wouldve left too.

Can't say I agree. In fact, I think if the comic had went out of business long ago, preferibly before humans appeared inside a cave with an artificial sky, it would have been better for the franchise as a whole.

[KittyNakajima]

No, not really.. I say this mostly in part to the fact that the American continuity really seemed to take itself too seriously. Sonic and co. scurrying around like terrorists trying to take down a tyrannical figure who's taken over pretty much 98.9% of the world? That's a damn long way off from how the original games of freeing Eggman of his animal battery supply and collecting rings and/or Chaos Emeralds first. Any way you cut it I doubt that's what the original developers had in mind for the story, or even what most people merely playing the game for the first time were thinking. It's pretty much a good example of someone taking something remotely vague and adding on to it bit by bit that it's completely a shadow within itself.

Also, the U.S. story is just too top heavy, especially if you take into account the current status quo of the comics. It just really seems to be too much info to put into the current status quo of the games, especially given how sales/popular opinion have been doing as of late. With all the gimmicks, quirks, and downright WTFs that some other casual gamers have been griping about (i.e. additional new characters, Werehog, hero vs. dark), I highly doubt it'd be a good idea to just throw in more crap to something that's not faring so well.

No, Im being serious. If the Archie Comics went out of publication during the Sonic Adventure 2 era I wouldve left this fanbase. Nothing in this decade has be of quality value aside from the portable games (which really isnt saying much.) In fact, I would say that Archie Comics is keeping the franchise on life support. Otherwise, I can safely bet that the marjority of the old school fans wouldve left too.

I'm going to be an ass and just throw out another franchise that had a similar issue -TMNT. I don't hear folks screaming about the franchise being on life support without the Archie Comics adaptation around, especially now that the series has basically been revamped to make it appeal to today's kids while - get this - staying true to the original comic storyline by Eastman and Laird! Sure, they have a bit of fan service here and there for older fans of the old cartoon/Archie comics, but I don't hear folks screaming/crying/boycotting the series because it doesn't feature characters/plot devices from said comic.

Edited April 29, 2009 by KittyNakajima

[Kiljoy]

Uhh, buddy? I totally got that message. And I was SIX at the time too and didn't read too far into it. You must also remember that at the time that Sonic (O.K., it was really Knuckles too.) was my favourite character and Robotnik was written off as a complete tyrant and douchebag with a technopunk dystopian future and a penchant to pollute and kill any living thing, basically the ramming of the popular idea of animals vs. humans (remember, this was the 90's where the destruction of the rainforest was constantly being drilled into our heads, and in popular media at that time most of the humans were being portrayed as the evil icky villains that wanted to slash and burn the cute, innocent animal's habitat.) The reason why as I recalled from my days of youth is that the American manual presented him in this form alongside other promotional materials and media forms. It wasn't until my best friend told me that he was also called "Eggman" in Japan that I was blown away. I always thought he was the real Robotnik and that Japan copied us (remember, kid logic here).

And SatAM Robotnik was like a cardboard cutout of any other run-of-the mill villain from (insert 90's cartoon show here). Whether you like to hear it or not, he had no redeeming values far from that. Sure I hesitantly admired him, and yes he had personality, but the man lacked substance and originality. You don't need to be pure evil to acquire great characterization status as I recall. If you love him, great, I'm not going to hold that or your opinion against you, but that's the bare bones of it.

That is reading to far into it, it was pro nature, but it did not push it as bad as cartoons today. And as far as the character I think you are trying to argue with me, despite us having the same opinion. I liked him being evil, I liked him not having any real redeeming qualities. My argument is that he was a good villain, I prefer him over the game version.