Classic Gameplay - What needs to be Fixed

[Cola]

Hey, welcome to the SSMB! Those points are great, and I'm pretty sure we all agree, but there is already a similar thread to this one. It's right here:

http://board.sonicstadium.org/topic/9421-sonic-generations-technical-oddities-flaws-unpaid-betatesting/

It pretty much covers most things in this thread. I predict the mods will lock, but of course, I could be wrong.

But yeah, welcome!

[Spooky Mulder]

I hope they don't lock this thread. It seems useful to have a specific thread dedicated to helping SEGA get C.Sonic right.

[Marcello]

I'm tired of waiting for the sega forums to go back online, damn hackers, so I've registered here to talk about this issue.

I know there is an unpaid betatesting thread, but I feel this specific issue (imo the most important issue of the game) deserves it's own thread.

So here's hoping this does not get merged.

As a big fan of the MD era games, and someone who has not really enjoyed any of the modern Sonic games that much, bar Colours, I have been very excited about SG.Finally getting my hands on the demo on Sonic's b-day further excited me but at the same time was dissapointing.

As you guys know, the basic physics of Sonic are correct and the gameplay is a MASSIVE improvement over S4 but there are a few important aeras of the gameplay that need to be fixed.

ROLLING / UNCURLING- Sonic rolls correctly on flats and does not uncurl, but when he rolls downhill his speed decreases and he tends to uncurl. In the original games, whenever the player rolled Sonic downhill his speed would greatly increase and his momentum build dramatically, also he would not uncurl unless he came to a stop or the player pressed jump and he landed back on the floor. ST needs to fix the rolling so it works how it did in the original games.

JUMP- I don't expect Classic Sonic to feel EXACTLY like he did in the MD games- his jump does not have to have the same hangtime, tho it would be nice, but he DOES need to be able to jump slightly higher as a lot of the time it is a struggle to reach platforms with the jump as it is in the demo. So I think Sonic's maximum jump height needs to be increased by half a hedgehog.

BOASTING RAMPS- The distance/angle that Sonic flies off the edge of ramps into the sky should only be the result of his own momentum and the angle of take off and nothing else. A number of the ramps in the SG demo have weird and un-needded boosts built in. The best example of this is after the two s-bends there is a big ramp that sends Sonic rocketing skywards for the ringgrab. But if you go back to that ramp, after the s-bends, and stand in front of it and spindash through it, Sonic will shoot the same 100ft or whatever into the air off the ramp as if he had come through the two s-bends because that ramp has a ridiculous boost which is activated if Sonic flies off it in a ball. THIS IS WRONG. NONE OF THE RAMPS SHOULD HAVE BOOSTS.

Sonic Team- You have done a great job so far with this game, the level design, graphics and basic physics of Sonic are all spot on.

But these three issues are very important and will be the difference between how well this game is received by the fans and the press.

Please rectify these issues.

All the best.

Damn ramps always boasting.

[Pelly <3's U]

K I won't lock it then, I'll merge it with the other topic.

[Jimbo]

I'm tired of waiting for the sega forums to go back online, damn hackers, so I've registered here to talk about this issue.

did you only register here to talk about this one issue, then will never post again?

The biggest thing that needs to be nerfed is the auto-spindash. Not taken out, but toned down so it does not seem so overpowered. There's still a few collision errors in the game but I think that it will be sorted out by the time of release (i.e. Sonic falls through the corkscrew).

[Dangerous]

Cripes, thanx for not locking it Pelly, LOL.

Really - we should all be working together to try to get ST to acknowledge these problems.

Previous poster- I'll post here until the SEGA forums are back up.

As for auto Spindash, you can ignore that if you wish and not use it it, but the rolling/ jump / boosting ramps are unavoidable and thus the priority imo.

[Indigo Rush]

I'd really only want the weird swinging platform's automatic guiding system removed. It makes Sonic flip out in mid-air when I'm trying to mess around with the slope.

Also, rolling physics are nerfed. They're better than Sonic 4, but still ineffective. The spindash is something I'm okay with, though.

My very first run on the Sonic Generations demo i fell through a rope bridge enuf said. Some serious things need to be addressed. Delay it to 2012 give it another year in developmenet make sure it comes out the other end of the tunnel running at full speed like sonic would.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[MrROBOTO1988]

BOASTING RAMPS- The distance/angle that Sonic flies off the edge of ramps into the sky should only be the result of his own momentum and the angle of take off and nothing else. A number of the ramps in the SG demo have weird and un-needded boosts built in. The best example of this is after the two s-bends there is a big ramp that sends Sonic rocketing skywards for the ringgrab. But if you go back to that ramp, after the s-bends, and stand in front of it and spindash through it, Sonic will shoot the same 100ft or whatever into the air off the ramp as if he had come through the two s-bends because that ramp has a ridiculous boost which is activated if Sonic flies off it in a ball. THIS IS WRONG. NONE OF THE RAMPS SHOULD HAVE BOOSTS.

[goku262002]

K I won't lock it then, I'll merge it with the other topic.

Edited June 29, 2011 by goku262002

[Dangerous]

I believe this is actually due to the overpowerment of the spindash. I've played around on the level quite a bit, and I'm looking forward to posting all my thoughts sometime soon, but this instance to me seems to be more related to the spindash. However, there are a couple of spots in the level where a ramp does seem to propel sonic a little further than it physically should.

R u serious?

No the reality is that this ramp boosts Sonic WAY higher than any other ramp in the level which you spindash off.

The reason for this is because it follows the two s-bends and ST added the ridiculous boost to help create the right amount of height in the jump following the s-bends instead of using real physics.

Other ramps have a hidden boost too, which is all wrong, but it's most pronounced in this particular ramp.

These boosts need to be removed, it's BS.

Was the topic title changed when it was merged or was my topic merged with his?

Didn't even notice there was a second topic. must've happend when i wasn't around...

I made a thread under this title, our threads got merged and my title was selected.

Hope you don't mind, I think my title would more likely attract Sonic Team's attention, which after all is what we want-

Them to read our posts.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Dangerous

[Autosaver]

It's fun, though from my four or five play throughs, it seemed kinda off, like the way you do everything, jump, spindash, sonic spin is a tad stiff, not to mention, Sonic can't really jump as high, I then played Sonic 4 after it and Sonic 4's physics felt more like the originals to me, but that could be just my opinion, and uncurling in this...I didn't see why it should be here :/ It does more bad than good!

But if I sound like I prefer Sonic 4 over this, forget it, it was a great experience, it's built up my hype and I am more than excited and eager to try the rest of the game, still day 1 purchase for me.

Shame we didn't get to try the Modern version of Green Hills, but either way, thank you SEGA <3

[MrROBOTO1988]

R u serious?

No the reality is that this ramp boosts Sonic WAY higher than any other ramp in the level which you spindash off.

The reason for this is because it follows the two s-bends and ST added the ridiculous boost to help create the right amount of height in the jump following the s-bends instead of using real physics.

Other ramps have a hidden boost too, which is all wrong, but it's most pronounced in this particular ramp.

These boosts need to be removed, it's BS.

I stand corrected, I just investigated further. Previously, I had only tried it once with the spindash and just figured, oh, overpowered spindash to the rescue with this, but yeah, you are right.

[Spooky Mulder]

I really don't get what's with the automation and the weird jumping. This game would play fantastically with the Sonic 1, Sonic 2, or S3&K physics engines, I don't understand why they can't just Copy/Paste one of them and make small modifications as needed.

I sort of understood why they did it in S4, since the level layouts were clearly designed for the craptastic Rush engine and they'd have to rebuild chunks of the levels. This I don't have any legitimate explanation for.

Seriously, SEGA, just fix it. It's not hard to do.

[Scar]

There is nothing wrong with the physics, make no mistake about that. The momentum and inertia that is so often talked about is all present and far better than Sonic 4. The problem is the friction value attributed to the rolling is too high (probably because its the same as Modern Sonic's slide, i.e. they didn't change any of the friction values).

As a result of the unecessarily high rolling friction, Sonic doesn't accelerate as much as he should when rolling. This means they added scripted ramps and s-tubes in order to compensate. Whether this is permanent or just a temp fix to get a demo out quickly, is beyond me.

[SilentDoom]

There is nothing wrong with the physics, make no mistake about that. The momentum and inertia that is so often talked about is all present and far better than Sonic 4. The problem is the friction value attributed to the rolling is too high (probably because its the same as Modern Sonic's slide, i.e. they didn't change any of the friction values).

As a result of the unecessarily high rolling friction, Sonic doesn't accelerate as much as he should when rolling. This means they added scripted ramps and s-tubes in order to compensate. Whether this is permanent or just a temp fix to get a demo out quickly, is beyond me.

[Patticus]

Rolling (assuming you mean sans spindash) was always slow, even back in Sonic 1. Go play the original GHZ and tell me that rolling is any better, go on.

Rolling is not the biggest issue here. The problem is the sheer number of automated sequences. There is no freedom, or certainly there's no feeling of it anyway. That and Sonic feels a tad heavy for my liking. Spindash is fine, rolling is fine.

[Derg]

Rolling (assuming you mean sans spindash) was always slow, even back in Sonic 1. Go play the original GHZ and tell me that rolling is any better, go on.

Rolling is not the biggest issue here. The problem is the sheer number of automated sequences. There is no freedom, or certainly there's no feeling of it anyway. That and Sonic feels a tad heavy for my liking. Spindash is fine, rolling is fine.

[Dangerous]

There is nothing wrong with the physics, make no mistake about that. The momentum and inertia that is so often talked about is all present and far better than Sonic 4. The problem is the friction value attributed to the rolling is too high (probably because its the same as Modern Sonic's slide, i.e. they didn't change any of the friction values).

As a result of the unecessarily high rolling friction, Sonic doesn't accelerate as much as he should when rolling. This means they added scripted ramps and s-tubes in order to compensate. Whether this is permanent or just a temp fix to get a demo out quickly, is beyond me.

Yea good post, that's exactly what they have done.

They just need to decrease the friction attributed to the rolling so Sonic increases in speed when rolling.

That and stop him uncurling into running, remove the ramp boasts & slightly increase Sonic's jump height.

Then Classic Sonic would play beautifully since the basic physics are good.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Dangerous

[Djawed]

There is nothing wrong with the physics, make no mistake about that. The momentum and inertia that is so often talked about is all present and far better than Sonic 4. The problem is the friction value attributed to the rolling is too high (probably because its the same as Modern Sonic's slide, i.e. they didn't change any of the friction values).

As a result of the unecessarily high rolling friction, Sonic doesn't accelerate as much as he should when rolling. This means they added scripted ramps and s-tubes in order to compensate. Whether this is permanent or just a temp fix to get a demo out quickly, is beyond me.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Jaouad

[TrueBlue]

Jaouad, why don't you stop coming off as a douche?

Everything that needs to be fixed has already been listed here. It's now up to Sega. I believe it's a perfectly enjoyable and playable experience as is, but these changes will be needed for greatness to be achieved.

[Voyant]

Ugh..

Just for once, stop being a tool.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Voyant

[ChikaBoing]

Playing the GG version of Sonic 1, it feels the most similar to this.

Edited June 30, 2011 by ChikaBoing

[Djawed]

Jaouad, why don't you stop coming off as a douche?

Everything that needs to be fixed has already been listed here. It's now up to Sega. I believe it's a perfectly enjoyable and playable experience as is, but these changes will be needed for greatness to be achieved.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Jaouad

[Scar]

Ugh..

Just for once, stop being a tool.

No, why don't you stop being a tool. Stop talking about physics when you clearly cannot tell the differences between physics and automated segments. In this case you are flat out wrong. There is no opinion involved at all.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the physics. When you press forward Sonic moves forward. When you spindash and them jump (and let go of the d-pad) Sonic will continue to move forward due to his correctly implemented inertia and will come to a halt, either when he hits a wall or the ground, or will deccelerate slowly through the air, unlike in Sonic 4.

Scripted spings, ramps and S-tubes has absolutely nothing to do with physics.

The slight input lag, has nothing to do with physics. The Weightiness of the jump is mainly to do with incorrect/different jumping variables. The slightly nerfed rolling is probably caused by incorrent/different friction values (probably lifted straight from the slide from Modern).

The physics themselves are perfectly fine, the laws of motion are all properly implemented.

So I say to you again, there is nothing wrong with the physics. The problem are the scripted events (which again are not related in any way to the physics).

Oh wait sorry, the physics are perfect. The scripted events are nescesary because the player might fuck up by jumping from a wall, since that sort of freedom is not good at all.

Rolling down a hill made the games cheap so it's better that they decided to not have the terrain affect rolling. It made the games especially cheap when the stages existed of a lot of steep hills like marble garden zone.

The insta spamdash however does compensate for those who can't handle changes. It's great that sonicteam deeply thinks about these said elements. They're geniuses and probably know how to make every sort of gameplay perfect with the best balance possible.

I vow to you sonicteam. Keep being great at making good BALANCED game design

Thanks in advance for the +reps

Its amazing how pretentious you can be, dispite not being able to tell the difference between physics and scripted events.

Again, physics =/= improper control implementation.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Scar

[TheDanimator]

Alright, Ive never worked on a game before so I dont know much about how they are made but I have a question.

Lets say they took out the scripted events...

What would happen if Sonic jumped on a spring?

Your saying the physics would still operate properly if Sonic jumped on a spring?

Im just wondering.

Or is this more of a matter of programming the spring on how far to launch sonic?

Im just a bit confused.

Edited June 30, 2011 by TheDanimator