New powers for Sonic characters.

[Scar]

Several problems with this:

1. Sonic gameplay is full of contradictions - for example, Cream the Rabbit can barely lift her own weight while flying in Sonic Advance 2, then in Sonic Heroes she can lift herself, Amy Rose and even the half ton Big the Cat indefinitely if she only moves vertically and doesn't move horizontally

2. Despite gameplay being bad proof your example doesn't actually contradict the established canon, it is proven that physical contact is not needed to harness Emerald power (I said this above with proof), if you watch the end of the opening Final Way cutscene, Doom floats away - he wasn't that far from Shadow during the level so Shadow could easily draw power from the Emeralds Doom had

And at no point did Doom talk about having no Emeralds for Chaos Control, all specifically Doom said having more Emeralds gives more power to Chaos Control, and his only point was to explain why he needed all 7; so according to what Doom said

0 CEs = 0 power for Chaos Control

1 CE = 1/7 of full power

2 CEs = 2/7 power

3 CEs = 3/7 power and so on until

7 CEs = full power

The a few plotholes are outweighed by how just about every game that explains Chaos Control defines it as using Emerald power

Just have Shadow use the Fake Emerald whenever he warps. Just say the Tails gave him the Fake Emerald so he could use chaos control, even when say Sonic or Eggman has all the real emeralds.

[Diogenes]

1. Sonic gameplay is full of contradictions - for example, Cream the Rabbit can barely lift her own weight while flying in Sonic Advance 2, then in Sonic Heroes she can lift herself, Amy Rose and even the half ton Big the Cat indefinitely if she only moves vertically and doesn't move horizontally

It's true that gameplay isn't always accurate to the story, but when there's so obvious an exception to the normal rules, I think it's something that should be considered. If Shadow requires an emerald to use Chaos Control, why create a level that not only allows, but forces him to use it, when he has no emeralds? Especially since they avoided this in the first level, by giving you an emerald so early it's almost impossible to build up enough energy to use Chaos powers before you get it. Gameplay can make a point, when it wants to.

2. Despite gameplay being bad proof your example doesn't actually contradict the established canon, it is proven that physical contact is not needed to harness Emerald power (I said this above with proof), if you watch the end of the opening Final Way cutscene, Doom floats away - he wasn't that far from Shadow during the level so Shadow could easily draw power from the Emeralds Doom had

We don't know where Doom was during the level; he may have poofed away to the goal as soon as he was out of view.

And at no point did Doom talk about having no Emeralds for Chaos Control, all specifically Doom said having more Emeralds gives more power to Chaos Control, and his only point was to explain why he needed all 7; so according to what Doom said

0 CEs = 0 power for Chaos Control

1 CE = 1/7 of full power

2 CEs = 2/7 power

3 CEs = 3/7 power and so on until

7 CEs = full power

There's absolutely no proof that it breaks down like this; you're making baseless assumptions as much as anyone. And if we're going to be specific, Doom said:

The Emeralds amplify the space-time control powers of Chaos Control.

And "amplify", to me, sounds more like a multiplicative effect than additive; if you "amplify" zero, it's still zero.

The a few plotholes are outweighed by how just about every game that explains Chaos Control defines it as using Emerald power

No one's saying Shadow's fueling his Chaos Controls with gasoline and batteries. Chaos energy is required to use Chaos Control, but that energy doesn't necessarily have to come from an emerald. We've seen artificial sources before (Tails' fake emerald, the Chaos Drives), so who's to say Shadow isn't like a living Chaos Drive, able to create Chaos energy within his own body?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I didn't say he was invincible, I said he was one of the most powerful characters in the series. He can do just about everything that Sonic can (and Sonic is one of the most powerful characters in the series, too), he's got superhuman strength (he can flip buses with one hand in ShtH), and he can warp time and space to his will to teleport, slow time, and fire destructive blasts of energy. And on top of all that we're supposed to accept that he can become even more powerful than that just by taking off some jewelry? Na-ah, not gonna fly.

Well look on the bright side. He is incapable of:

• Flight
  
• Pyrokinesis
  
• Telekinesis
  
• Matter manipulation
  
• Invisiblity
  
• Etc
  

At the most he can manipulate time, space, energy, and has superspeed and strength, and while only the later three can be amplified it's still bound under those categories.

Also lets remember Silver. Shadow may have roundhouse kicked him in 06, but telekinesis alone make Silver too damn powerful as it is, and whats worse is that you can evolve it to do almost all the shit Shadow can do and more. Of course, that may be stretching it too far. Still, if you're so much as near him when he activates his telekinesis, you can't fight back because IT'S NO USE! *shot*

We don't know where Doom was during the level; he may have poofed away to the goal as soon as he was out of view.

It can safely be said that he went through the floor/wall/ceiling to get to where he is or teleported there, since he does that on a regular basis in the game.

Edited December 28, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Darth InVaders]

Just have Shadow use the Fake Emerald whenever he warps. Just say the Tails gave him the Fake Emerald so he could use chaos control, even when say Sonic or Eggman has all the real emeralds.

yes, he could have that unexplained extra Emerald from his Sonic Heroes Team Blast (the one that shows up before the player collects a single Emerald in the game)

It's true that gameplay isn't always accurate to the story, but when there's so obvious an exception to the normal rules, I think it's something that should be considered. If Shadow requires an emerald to use Chaos Control, why create a level that not only allows, but forces him to use it, when he has no emeralds? Especially since they avoided this in the first level, by giving you an emerald so early it's almost impossible to build up enough energy to use Chaos powers before you get it. Gameplay can make a point, when it wants to.

We don't know where Doom was during the level; he may have poofed away to the goal as soon as he was out of view.

It would have been quite easy to animate Doom teleporting away, I'm sure they would have if they meant for it - but instead they animated him floating away with Shadow giving chase. And even if he did teleport, he may not have necessarily gotten out of the vaguely defined range in which an Emerald's power can be drawn (if you watch the final Super transformation in Colors, it's a pretty big range).

There's absolutely no proof that it breaks down like this; you're making baseless assumptions as much as anyone. And if we're going to be specific, Doom said:And "amplify", to me, sounds more like a multiplicative effect than additive; if you "amplify" zero, it's still zero.

There is lots of proof in the quotes I posted earlier:

It was defined as breaking down as 0 CEs = 0 power in SA2

- Shadow, Adventure2 cutscene: "It was a Chaos Emerald, wasn't it? But... there's no way you could have activated the Chaos Control... using an Emerald that's fake."

Then Black Doom said that having more Emeralds amplifies Chaos Control; and "amplify" doesn't necessarily mean multiplicative, it just means "make larger or more powerful, increase". Furthermore, there has been no change in the language used defining Chaos Control as using Chaos Emeralds, even in the most recent material Shadow has appeared in, Sonic 06 and Sonic Rivals

- Shadow, Sonic06 cutscene: "With a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space"

- Shadow profile, Sonic Channel website: "He is given the ability of Chaos Control to distort time and space using the Chaos Emeralds"

- Shadow profile, Rivals website: "Possessing the power to use Chaos Emeralds to perform Chaos Control..."

Even in Shadow's Sonic Channel bio it says this, and that is linked even more directly to Sonic Team as it can be updated, yet it has been kept even through website redesigns.

No one's saying Shadow's fueling his Chaos Controls with gasoline and batteries. Chaos energy is required to use Chaos Control, but that energy doesn't necessarily have to come from an emerald. We've seen artificial sources before (Tails' fake emerald, the Chaos Drives), so who's to say Shadow isn't like a living Chaos Drive, able to create Chaos energy within his own body?

But there is no evidence for Shadow being a 'living Chaos Drive' - no character or official source has speculated or hinted or anything about such a connection. Connecting fake Emeralds and Chaos Drives to Shadow is far more speculative than anything I've said.

I guess saying Shadow is pulling the energy to power his powers from a fake Emerald is a reasonable compromise that covers even most plotholes related to Chaos Control - after all Shadow did pull an extra Emerald out of no where in Heroes and could still have it (perhaps saying he can pull the energy from Chaos Drives is comparatively reasonable too despite not having non-speculative evidence of anyone ever doing so or being capable of doing so - at least an official source says they were specifically created from Chaos Emerald research)

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'll let Diogenes cover all the other parts, but there is one thing I have to say...

It would have been quite easy to animate Doom teleporting away, I'm sure they would have if they meant for it - but instead they animated him floating away with Shadow giving chase. And even if he did teleport, he may not have necessarily gotten out of the vaguely defined range in which an Emerald's power can be drawn (if you watch the final Super transformation in Colors, it's a pretty big range).

Okay, the problem here is that you don't seem to realize that at this point Doom had ALL SEVEN CHAOS EMERALDS AND KNEW HOW TO USE THEM.

Teleportation would be pretty damn minor compared to whatever else he wanted to and could possibly do. With that much power, he could teleport to any part around the globe he wanted from the Comet, to the Ark, or on the surface of the Earth itself.

Edited December 28, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

Yeah, but there's no proof he has a fake emerald or not, and like you said gameplay sometimes contradict the story, and Shadow having that emerald in Heroes is a prime example, its never explained if its fake or real.

I hate to use Shonen logic when talking about Sonic, but you ever think Chaos Energy is their version of Ki/Chakra/Reitsu and all that other crap? I mean it makes sense, and having any amount can give you the ability to use Chaos Control, and its not like anyone calls him out on teleporting so it can be assumed its Chaos Control.

Or maybe having no emeralds means you can only teleport in short distances, and the more you have the greater and farther Chaos Control is amplified.

There's also the final Sonic & Shadow fight in Sa2, where Shadow is clearly using Chaos Control without an emerald on him, and we know he didn't take it from the eclipse cannon, because Eggman is getting ready to fire the thing with all seven emeralds in it.

[Darth InVaders]

I'll let Diogenes cover all the other parts, but there is one thing I have to say...

Okay, the problem here is that you don't seem to realize that at this point Doom had ALL SEVEN CHAOS EMERALDS AND KNEW HOW TO USE THEM.

Teleportation would be pretty damn minor compared to whatever else he wanted to and could possibly do. With that much power, he could teleport to any part around the globe he wanted from the Comet, to the Ark, or on the surface of the Earth itself.

Edited December 28, 2010 by Darth InVaders

[Kuzu]

Well, comparing Chaos energy to Ki/Chakra etc is a huge reach (especially since Chaos energy is created by the Emeralds through a process of turning thoughts into power - so your theory would contradict this by the Emeralds instead pulling energy from living things around it to give to one I guess? There is no evidence the Emeralds act like Spirit Bombs). And like I proved before, the Chaos Emeralds do not need physical contact for characters to harness their energy, just a vague proximity - even though I don't like using gameplay for proof, even the SA2 final Sonic vs Shadow kept to the canon requirement of using Emerald power because Sonic had the fake Emerald on him (and thus within Shadow's proximity).

[Darth InVaders]

Yeah a FAKE emerald, an emerald that Tails specifically said is LESS powerful than a real one, and keep in mind Sonic passed out from only using Chaos Control once with that emerald, so it can assumed only one person at a time can use it. And Sonic & Shadow were fighting at really high speeds so unless Shadow was 2ft away from Sonic throughout their fight, it can be said Shadow was using Chaos Control without an emeralds power.

And keep in mind the Rivals, and 06 examples he had to cross space and time respectively so I would imagine that would require an emerald to make possible, wheras anytime he teleports its only a short distance and doesn't seem like it would require to do(I.e. Teleporting behind his opponent).

Edited December 28, 2010 by Darth InVaders

[Blacklightning]

Well look on the bright side. He is incapable of:

• 
  
• Flight
  
• Pyrokinesis
  
• Telekinesis
  
• Matter manipulation
  
• Invisiblity
  
• Etc
  

Actually...

- Shadow is commonly depicted as flying in most of his Chaos Control-esque moves. Most notably during Chaos Control in his own game, but also with his midair jump in Sonic Battle where it was fully controllable, albiet impossible to gain any altitude. There's also Super forms, if you count that. And his jet shoes, which occasionally depict him as flying (notable example: first appearance in SA2's Dark story)

- In at least one of the Riders games, Shadow is seen telekinetically retrieving his board just prior to a race.

- In Sonic Battle, you could turn invisible by equipping Chaos Blast as a ground move and holding the button down, then reappearing with the Blast as soon as you released it. This was an amazingly cheap tactic btw.

- Hell, the very definition of Chaos Control is an oxymoron that could literally amount to outright reality control and consequently literally every possible feat imaginable, and even disregarding that, even oversimplifying it down to control of time and space could techically still make him potentially capable of exhibiting most if not every trait on that list.

Not to make a bearing on anyone's argument here, though. Just making an observation. I would rather that Shadow's powers weren't quite that broad in scope though.

Edited December 28, 2010 by Blacklightning

[Rusty Spy]

- Shadow is commonly depicted as flying in most of his Chaos Control-esque moves. Most notably during Chaos Control in his own game, but also with his midair jump in Sonic Battle where it was fully controllable, albiet impossible to gain any altitude. There's also Super forms, if you count that. And his jet shoes, which occasionally depict him as flying (notable example: first appearance in SA2's Dark story)

Actually, I believe that this is an illusion. In the game, and presumably through Shadow's eyes, Chaos Control appears as if he is flying at super speeds, but in reality, the teleportation is (or at least should, given how it's depicted in almost every other form) instantaneous, similar to how it also allows him to stop time.

It COULD be that the teleportation and the time stop are one and the same. Teleportation could actually be Shadow stopping time and moving to a new location. To everyone else, it would look like nothing had happened. Though this is more of an idea rather than a theory on how it actually works, since there's some obvious flaws in that logic.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

He was capable sure, but there are lots of examples of plot induced stupidity - and he is still only shown floating away, he was still on the Comet, heck he could have phased like you said earlier, we don't know what he did, but he didn't get away from Shadow so Shadow could have still have been in range.

No, he got away from Shadow, and it can safely be assumed such with his abilities. He can appear just as quickly as he can leave, and he's done so in several cutscenes in the game.

The only thing he didn't do was travel off the comet, and that's the only range he was around.

Gameplay is filled with plot holes moreso than the cutscenes and other material (manuals, websites), I don't want to fixate on it.

I wasn't talking gameplay when I quoted you...

Actually...

- Shadow is commonly depicted as flying in most of his Chaos Control-esque moves. Most notably during Chaos Control in his own game, but also with his midair jump in Sonic Battle where it was fully controllable, albiet impossible to gain any altitude. There's also Super forms, if you count that. And his jet shoes, which occasionally depict him as flying (notable example: first appearance in SA2's Dark story)

Okay, then would it still be off to say he hasn't mastered flight? I'm not sure we could class his Chaos Control moves as flight, it looks more like it's just to show how he teleports.

The jet shoes are really the only thing that throw a monkey wrench here.

- In at least one of the Riders games, Shadow is seen telekinetically retrieving his board just prior to a race.

Now I don't like to consider using spin-offs, but if all is fair here, I'm not sure how that would make him even close of a telekinetic as Silver, who was also capable of using said telekinetics to induce EMP/Paralysis on his enemies.

That kind of puts Shadow in a tricky place. Could we just say he called his board using the boards flight system itself? It is capable of flying, but I'm not very knowledgable on the first Riders game.

- In Sonic Battle, you could turn invisible by equipping Chaos Blast as a ground move and holding the button down, then reappearing with the Blast as soon as you released it. This was an amazingly cheap tactic btw.

I looked up some sources, and it was said to be hiding in space/time. Although that doesn't make your point any weaker...then again, he could have frozen time and space and made it seem like invisibility.

Of course, that's just pulling something out of my ass to explain the physics.

- Hell, the very definition of Chaos Control is an oxymoron that could literally amount to outright reality control and consequently literally every possible feat imaginable, and even disregarding that, even oversimplifying it down to control of time and space could techically still make him potentially capable of exhibiting most if not every trait on that list.

Not to make a bearing on anyone's argument here, though. Just making an observation. I would rather that Shadow's powers weren't quite that broad in scope though.

Well damn, there goes finding any kind of limitations on him. At best we can only say that he hasn't mastered any of the things I mentioned.

They need to find some lid on Shadow to keep him from stretching to those lengths, I like to think of him only being able to manipulate the 3 things I mentioned that are induced by his chaos abilities.

Edited December 28, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

A fake Emerald with the same wavelength & properties as a real Emerald would still turn thoughts into power like a real Emerald and thus be regenerating that power. And we don't know how much less powerful it was - it was vague, so you're being speculative again, the proximity could still have been large enough for Shadow to use its power. Also Sonic was weakened after using Chaos Control for the first time - then Sonic also used Chaos Control in the fight without getting weak. And remember, moments before this battle Shadow nearly crapped himself from realizing Sonic activated Chaos Control with a fake Emerald - even if it was true that Emeralds aren't required, he could not have put together that he didn't even need one so quickly after learning that a fake that had power so convincing it could fool a computer was enough.

In respect to all the quotes I've quoted, the best conclusion is that Chaos Control uses the power from the Chaos Emeralds. Otherwise they don't make sense, take the Sonic Rivals profile quote, if Shadow doesn't need Emeralds, then the quote seems to be saying that while Chaos Control is itself rare, being able to enhance Chaos Control with Chaos Emeralds is an even GREATER feat that fewer are capable of. And nobody agrees with that right?

Well keep in mind Shadow could use Chaos Control 50 years prior to the events of SA2, its not like he learned it as soon as he was born. It could also be said that the more control you have over it the more potent it becomes, to the point where you don't need an emerald to perform it(Though having one can still amplify the power behind it), and as I said above Shadow already had Chaos Control when he as born, so he had more than enough time to hone it to the point of not needing one. Sonic on the other hand, never used it before or even knew about Chaos Control until he saw Shadow use it, and the fact the first time he was able to use it with a fake emerald, I think that's what surprised Shadow more.

Shadow has more potency of Chaos Control over everybody else, so its not too farfetched to believe he can use it without one.

Besides there are just too many connections for it to be not true, I mean we already know that Chaos Control can teleport you to a different location right? So the fact that there's a random teleportation power(Which looks very similar to Chaos Control mind you) in addition to Chaos Control, and the fact that Shadow(The most frequent user of Chaos Control) is the only one who uses it, just seems odd.

[Rusty Spy]

Now I don't like to consider using spin-offs, but if all is fair here, I'm not sure how that would make him even close of a telekinetic as Silver, who was also capable of using said telekinetics to induce EMP/Paralysis on his enemies.

I think your thinking a little too broadly here. If we were to include spinoffs, things would really start getting tricky trying to explain all the contradictions they have with the canon. Anything that contradicts canon can just be ignored, anything that can work can be included in canon.

There's little explanation on how Shadow could move his board telekinetically like that, so it's just easier to assume it was for Rule of Cool and leave it at that. There's no explination as to why all the characters move relatively slowly when off their boards aside from Gameplay-Story Segregation, so it's best to leave it at that.

Though the invisibility could be chocked up to Shadow abusing the invisibility of teleporting with Chaos Control and simply using it indefinitely in Battle.

Well damn, there goes finding any kind of limitations on him. At best we can only say that he hasn't mastered any of the things I mentioned.

They need to find some lid on Shadow to keep him from stretching to those lengths, I like to think of him only being able to manipulate the 3 things I mentioned that are induced by his chaos abilities.

Just don't write them in. If you don't want Shadow's abilities to canonically be that wide, then don't write them like that, and simply leave the spinoffs as non canon, or at the very least, very loosely based in canon.

There isn't going to be massive outcry as to why Shadow doesn't simply use his implied telekenisis like he did in that one small, vague instance in Riders, or why Shadow can't pull off moves like in Battle. If you simply forget about them and focus on the main canon, no one's gonna notice or care.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think your thinking a little too broadly here. If we were to include spinoffs, things would really start getting tricky trying to explain all the contradictions they have with the canon. Anything that contradicts canon can just be ignored, anything that can work can be included in canon.

It's because of that reason that I try to avoid them. The main series is tricky enough, but not convulted to the point that we can't explain it. The spin-offs just fuck shit up sometimes.

Just don't write them in. If you don't want Shadow's abilities to canonically be that wide, then don't write them like that, and simply leave the spinoffs as non canon, or at the very least, very loosely based in canon.

I don't plan to, but every now and then someone is going to throw a bone in that direction, and it just helps to find some way to be prepared in case it happens.

There isn't going to be massive outcry as to why Shadow doesn't simply use his implied telekenisis like he did in that one small, vague instance in Riders, or why Shadow can't pull off moves like in Battle.

I'd definitely laugh my ass of if there was.

Edited December 28, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Blacklightning]

Actually, I believe that this is an illusion. In the game, and presumably through Shadow's eyes, Chaos Control appears as if he is flying at super speeds, but in reality, the teleportation is (or at least should, given how it's depicted in almost every other form) instantaneous, similar to how it also allows him to stop time.

It COULD be that the teleportation and the time stop are one and the same. Teleportation could actually be Shadow stopping time and moving to a new location. To everyone else, it would look like nothing had happened. Though this is more of an idea rather than a theory on how it actually works, since there's some obvious flaws in that logic.

Like the fact he can perform the timestop and the "teleportation" seperately perhaps? Just off the top of my head there's the Chaos Control ability in SA2's multiplayer and its effects in ShTH's boss fights for time stops, and in addition to the aformentioned midair jump in Battle there's a few other instances like the end of ShTH's intro and the fact he can hover in said game as long as he's firing a gun, and if you really want to stretch things he had that ridiculous aircombo HA in '06 that held him in place in the process, all of that would support him having a flying ability or at the very least a hovering one.

Now see, this is exactly what's wrong with Chaos powers. They're ridiculously vauge and inconsistent to the extent they could amount to anything, and it really needs to be narrowed a lot. If Chaos Control really were just a teleportation-esque time stop and that alone I'd be perfectly fine with it, but the writers just seemed to want to write so many new purposes into it it just started getting ridiculous.

Okay, then would it still be off to say he hasn't mastered flight? I'm not sure we could class his Chaos Control moves as flight, it looks more like it's just to show how he teleports.

As already mentioned, he can do it seperately from the teleport itself in many instances. It kinda depends on which sources have more credibility though, but I'd say ShTH's intro is enough to go by.

Now I don't like to consider using spin-offs, but if all is fair here, I'm not sure how that would make him even close of a telekinetic as Silver, who was also capable of using said telekinetics to induce EMP/Paralysis on his enemies.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to imply it's anyware near Silver's leauge. Just implying that he's technically capable of something like it.

That kind of puts Shadow in a tricky place. Could we just say he called his board using the boards flight system itself? It is capable of flying, but I'm not very knowledgable on the first Riders game.

I dunno, it drifts about in a pretty intricate pattern before Shadow catches it, and considering the Extreme Gear only applies thrust in one direction (ie: down), it would be pretty much impossible to replicate that kind of pattern without applying external pressure to it, body weight, telekinesis or otherwise.

I looked up some sources, and it was said to be hiding in space/time. Although that doesn't make your point any weaker...then again, he could have frozen time and space and made it seem like invisibility.

I remember seeing something vaugely like that in the move description, and honestly, I don't really understand it. I mean, when you see the effect in motion, Shadow is clearly moving foward at a relatively slow pace, just invisible to the naked eye (the camera follows him when he uses it). It can't have been anything time related, otherwise it would have been an instantaenous jump between two points (kinda like how it happens in the arial version, where he warps directly to the ground from the air to blow up). Trying to explain it with space control gives me a headache just trying to think about it - even if you were to explain it as "lol hammerspace", it would imply that he's not even on the field at all, when the game implies a slow, gradual movement between two points, and that Shadow still had a presence in the current arena, albiet invisible. Gah, my head hurts.

Then again, this is coming from the game that tried to justify Sonic having a healing ability powered by extreme speed. No, I'm not making that up. Trying to understand Battle's logic is simply futile, I was only really trying to state that Shadow had performed a feat like that once.

Well damn, there goes finding any kind of limitations on him. At best we can only say that he hasn't mastered any of the things I mentioned.

They need to find some lid on Shadow to keep him from stretching to those lengths, I like to think of him only being able to manipulate the 3 things I mentioned that are induced by his chaos abilities.

Honestly at this stage, I'd rather they just retconned Shadow's powers entirely and narrowed them down to a few more easily explainable fields. If it were just "lol, I can teleport and throw energy bolts", that would be perfectly fine, but that the writers have capitalized on the vaugeness of Chaos Control to make plot points is infuriating.

Fuck, maybe I should've just kept my mouth shut and made a seperate thread. I might be dragging things a bit offtopic here.

Edited December 28, 2010 by Blacklightning

[SykoTech]

Depends on the power I guess.

Random, superpower moves like in SA2? Hell no! I never want to see Knuckles shoot lightning and Rouge rip holes in the space/time continuum again.

But if the ability works with making the gameplay fresh and the story, then sure.

There should be limits though. Knuckles shouldn't be able to punch mountains to pieces at all, unless he's in super form or something. I don't think even the Hulk could do that.

[Diogenes]

Well look on the bright side. He is incapable of:

• etc...
  

Yes, in a certain sense I am glad he is merely overpowered rather than omnipotent. But that doesn't make him any less overpowered.

It would have been quite easy to animate Doom teleporting away, I'm sure they would have if they meant for it - but instead they animated him floating away with Shadow giving chase.

And then you don't see him until the end of the level, so there's no way to tell how close or far he is at any time.

And even if he did teleport, he may not have necessarily gotten out of the vaguely defined range in which an Emerald's power can be drawn

The main issue I have with this "vaguely defined range" is that I can't think of a single instance in which the user and the emerald(s) weren't a stone's throw away. The most damning (I'd say) is Shadow saving Rouge in SA2: He has to run through a stage, then actually get into the sealed room and run to her to warp. If he could do it from a mile away, why wouldn't he? And giving it a huge range just ends up being a mess, storywise; if he can access its power from miles away, there's very little you can do to "take" it away from him; even if you grab it and run, unless you're as fast as Sonic, it's still in his range. It just gets silly.

(if you watch the final Super transformation in Colors, it's a pretty big range).

What? At what point does turning Super in Colors involve the emeralds being anything more than an arm's length away?

There is lots of proof in the quotes I posted earlier:

It was defined as breaking down as 0 CEs = 0 power in SA2

No it wasn't. Shadow isn't outright stating that it's impossible to use Chaos Control without an emerald; he's surprised that the "faker" managed to figure out how to do it, and with a fake emerald (that is, a weak energy source) no less. Chaos Control isn't easy, even with an emerald; there aren't many people who can tap into their power in any meaningful way. Besides, Sonic did CC with a fake emerald, so it is possible to do it without a real emerald. This opens up the possibility that there are other ways to collect enough Chaos energy to CC.

Then Black Doom said that having more Emeralds amplifies Chaos Control;

He said that the emeralds amplify it, in general. Obviously more emeralds=more power too, but taken as it's worded, one emerald amplifies it too.

and "amplify" doesn't necessarily mean multiplicative, it just means "make larger or more powerful, increase".

In what sort of situation would you use "amplify" that isn't taking a nonzero value and making it "more"? Amplifying a positive value gives a "more positive" value. Amplifying a negative value gives a "more negative" value. Amplifying zero gives you zero.

Furthermore, there has been no change in the language used defining Chaos Control as using Chaos Emeralds, even in the most recent material Shadow has appeared in, Sonic 06 and Sonic Rivals

Yes, because he (and anyone else, on the rare occasion that it's not him) still uses the emeralds to perform Chaos Control. Presumably the stone of infinite power works better than using his own energy.

But there is no evidence for Shadow being a 'living Chaos Drive' - no character or official source has speculated or hinted or anything about such a connection. Connecting fake Emeralds and Chaos Drives to Shadow is far more speculative than anything I've said.

I didn't mean that to be evidence for him being able to use CC without an emerald, but a possible explanation as to why he could.

I guess saying Shadow is pulling the energy to power his powers from a fake Emerald is a reasonable compromise that covers even most plotholes related to Chaos Control - after all Shadow did pull an extra Emerald out of no where in Heroes and could still have it

You really think it's a good idea to have a fake emerald literally appear out of nowhere just so Shadow can use it? You don't solve plotholes by causing plotholes.

And if not having Emeralds meant only warping short distances - that wouldn't be Chaos Control - that would just be an unnamed warp / teleport since Chaos Control is defined as using CEs, there is no evidence Shadow is capable of that either

If you are tearing space/time using Chaos energy, that is Chaos Control. It doesn't matter if you move 5 feet or 5 million miles, or if you use real emeralds, fake emeralds, or whatever.

[The Weeb with No Name]

I think Shadow should sprout wings and fly.

[Rusty Spy]

and in addition to the aformentioned midair jump in Battle there's a few other instances like the end of ShTH's intro and the fact he can hover in said game as long as he's firing a gun, and if you really want to stretch things he had that ridiculous aircombo HA in '06 that held him in place in the process, all of that would support him having a flying ability or at the very least a hovering one.

Well that's all par for the course. No Chaos powers going on here.

If Chaos Control really were just a teleportation-esque time stop and that alone I'd be perfectly fine with it, but the writers just seemed to want to write so many new purposes into it it just started getting ridiculous.

Well they also came up with Chaos Control being able to initiate TIME TRAVEL (which in hindsight would actually be Fridge Brilliance and really freaken sweet since CC is always described as manipulation of space and time; stopping/slowing time is already a common attribute, so it'd actually feel like a natural progression for Chaos Control users to be able to unlock the complete ability to move THROUGH time, but since the Sonic games can't take the same kind of liberties as comic book writers to really go into extreme detail about stuff like that, it'd be a horrible imbalance).

Then again, this is coming from the game that tried to justify Sonic having an ability powered by extreme speed. No, I'm not making that up.

Maybe he drew from the Speed Force.

Fuck, maybe I should've just kept my mouth shut and made a seperate thread. I might be dragging things a bit offtopic here.

Well this is a topic about Sonic character's powers, so it technically applies.

You know, all this talk about Chaos Energy and it's utter vagueness makes for some intersting ideas. We already know that Chaos Energy is capable of manipulating space time, allowing for teleportation, and a whole range of energy based attacks, but what ELSE can Chaos Energy do?

What other effects can be achieved by tapping into the Chaos Emeralds infinite powers?

Maybe then Chaos Energy can turn into The Force and be used to fill in plotholes. =3

Edited December 28, 2010 by Black Spy

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Like the fact he can perform the timestop and the "teleportation" seperately perhaps? Just off the top of my head there's the Chaos Control ability in SA2's multiplayer and its effects in ShTH's boss fights for time stops, and in addition to the aformentioned midair jump in Battle there's a few other instances like the end of ShTH's intro and the fact he can hover in said game as long as he's firing a gun, and if you really want to stretch things he had that ridiculous aircombo HA in '06 that held him in place in the process, all of that would support him having a flying ability or at the very least a hovering one.

I'm comfortable with it being limited to hovering. With jet shoes like his, that should just be expected.

I dunno, it drifts about in a pretty intricate pattern before Shadow catches it, and considering the Extreme Gear only applies thrust in one direction (ie: down), it would be pretty much impossible to replicate that kind of pattern without applying external pressure to it, body weight, telekinesis or otherwise.

Eh, fuck it. I'm just gonna write that one out and call it rule of cool.

I remember seeing something vaugely like that in the move description, and honestly, I don't really understand it. I mean, when you see the effect in motion, Shadow is clearly moving foward at a relatively slow pace, just invisible to the naked eye (the camera follows him when he uses it). It can't have been anything time related, otherwise it would have been an instantaenous jump between two points (kinda like how it happens in the arial version, where he warps directly to the ground from the air to blow up). Trying to explain it with space control gives me a headache just trying to think about it - even if you were to explain it as "lol hammerspace", it would imply that he's not even on the field at all, when the game implies a slow, gradual movement between two points, and that Shadow still had a presence in the current arena, albiet invisible. Gah, my head hurts.

Well he can control space and time: 3 dimensions of space, 1 dimension of time.

Unless he can control the other dimensions - with my findings mentioning that there are 11 dimensions from 0 to 10 (if you want a real headache, check this shit out) - I'd like to think that he's hiding on a higher or lower dimensional plain. Of course that would make no fucking sense if he was hiding on anything lower than a 3D plane, but it's as best an explaination I can bring up to dodge the invisibility factor.

Of course, that just makes the argument even messier than it should be.

Then again, this is coming from the game that tried to justify Sonic having a healing ability powered by extreme speed. No, I'm not making that up. Trying to understand Battle's logic is simply futile, I was only really trying to state that Shadow had performed a feat like that once.

That kind of makes it all the more reason to write it out...

Honestly at this stage, I'd rather they just retconned Shadow's powers entirely and narrowed them down to a few more easily explainable fields. If it were just "lol, I can teleport and throw energy bolts", that would be perfectly fine, but that the writers have capitalized on the vaugeness of Chaos Control to make plot points is infuriating.

As far as I'm concerned, it's limited Time, Space, and Energy and nothing else. We've seen all three of those shown and explained without no problems, so unless the writers end up expanding the ability any further, I think I want to be safe in the limitations here.

Fuck, maybe I should've just kept my mouth shut and made a seperate thread. I might be dragging things a bit offtopic here.

Actually, all you've done is make more headaches and made Shadow the potential candidate for being omnipotent, which is what I really wanted to avoid until you came in.

We are talking about giving Sonic characters, so you still on topic as far as I'm concerned.

Edited December 28, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Indigo Rush]

I think Shadow should sprout wings and fly.

Ah, but according to Sonic Riders,

"Even without wings, I can still fly!"

- Sonic, with derp face.

[The Weeb with No Name]

Chaos Emeralds can do whatever the writers want them to do.

Their power is limited by the word of God.

[Darth InVaders]

No, he got away from Shadow, and it can safely be assumed such with his abilities. He can appear just as quickly as he can leave, and he's done so in several cutscenes in the game.

The only thing he didn't do was travel off the comet, and that's the only range he was around.

Edited December 28, 2010 by Darth InVaders

[The Weeb with No Name]

Chaos powers are as variable as the writers want them to be.