The Derailment of Knuckles the Echidna

[Kuzu]

Shadow reverts back to his antagonistic side for the sake of competition, but when the world is on the line (06 & Colors) he lacks that same holier than thou attitude.

As for Knuckles and Rouge, Sonic Team hasn't forgotten about them yet. The two got some more screen time in Colors, which was entertaining, and they were partners in Rivals 2 not too long ago. The two still clearly have it in for the other, I can tell you that much.

Yeah in more ways than one, Bow Chicka wow wow.

Anyway, well obviously Shadow is going to help save the world, I mean he may be a cold asshole but isn't called an Anti-Hero for nothing.

But in any case, I new trope popped up that I think fits Knuckles pretty well "Heroic Neutral I mean he is usually described as a reluctant ally, and think about it most of the plots(The ones that involve the M.E. anyway) he only gets involved because he has no other choice.

[Rusty Spy]

Chaotix are too busy with their detective work. You want my solution? I got THREE.

1) BRING OUT SHADE THE ECHIDNA!

I said once before on here that Shade could be the very key to unlock Knuckles' shackles to the ME and give him more freedom. You got two badass echidnas - one with strength, the other skilled in assassination and stealth - would you want to fuck with either one trying to steal the ME? Really, choose your poison...And god help you if BOTH of them are around.

That just leaves development for Shade.

2) BRING IN G.U.N.

Okay, so if there is something that requires great strength and needs Knuckles to leave the island, why not have GUN keep watch over it? Say Rouge or Shadow needs Knuckles for something, or that Omega arrives on the island for whatever reason. Punches/kicks are throw, forests are leveled, war breaks out, then at the end GUN settle things and make Angel Island a protectorate. Rouge can look at the shiny stone as much as she want (no touchy tho ), GUN can set up a new base, and Knuckles is free to come and go as he pleases from then on with FULL authority on his island.

Should anyone so much as TRY to get the balls to try to fuck with the M.E. at that point, not only do they have to deal with Knuckles, but they also have Team Dark to deal with...if not the full force of the GUN military for invading a highly secure installation in the first place.

3) Do #1 AND #2

Okay. So, Knuckles...Shade...Team Dark...GUN...

All of which will end up with getting Sonic and Tails involved in SOME way no matter what.

I'm sorry, but WTF are you smoking to even think about invading the Island? You either have to be Dr. Eggman himself (in which that's too crazy even for him), or you got balls of titanium and sheer dumb luck on your side.

I still don't see how ANY of this is necessary when A, nothing has stopped Knuckles from doing whatever he wanted before, and people just won't leave the damn thing alone, constantly screaming about who's babysitting it, when it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the current story, and B, IT'S A GIANT. FLOATING. ISLAND. Someone tell me how this is SOMEHOW insufficient protection. The only 2 people who have both a motive and means of even setting FOOT on the island are either the main villain of the story or completely out of the picture.

Is there honestly, HONESTLY a reason to include some half-assed reason for the M.E's status to constantly be shoehorned into the plot, when at the end of the day it has NO bearing on the overall plot, nor Knuckles as a character?

[batson]

On the subject of Rouge & Knuckles, anyone else think their rivalry needs to return?

Edited December 16, 2010 by batson

[Kuzu]

The whole Knuckles X Rouge relationship (whether interpreted as romantic or strictly as a rivalry) kinda leaves a bad taste in my mouth, since it seems to me like Knuckles interactions with Rouge in SA2 was the first time that Knux started being shown in a more comedic light. You know, with all the awkward accidental hand-holding and what not. And if there is one thing Knuckles shouldn't be, it's a comic relief character (not saying he isn't allowed to be the basis of an joke every now and the, but he shouldn't be it more often than most other characters). Please Sega, you have Amy, Big, Team Chaotix and now also Marine to clown around, let that be enough.

But to be fair, i realize of course that Knuckles interactions with Rouge certainly doesn't have to be comical per definition or anything. Also, this just occured to me, but does anyone else find it strange that Knux and Rouge barely even aknowledged each other presence in Chronicles? Speaking of which, neither did Rouge and Shadow. But im drifting of topic now, so ill just be quiet for a moment.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I still don't see how ANY of this is necessary when A, nothing has stopped Knuckles from doing whatever he wanted before, and people just won't leave the damn thing alone, constantly screaming about who's babysitting it, when it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the current story,

It'll let Knuckles do what he wants without anyone questioning the M.E.'s protection permanently...

If that any of that was done, people WILL leave the damn thing alone, they will SHUT UP about who's babysitting it, and they WON'T WORRY about whether or not it has anything to do with the current story. Would you want folks to continue arguing about it, or would you actually like to have a way that will finally lay the issue to rest?

and B, IT'S A GIANT. FLOATING. ISLAND. Someone tell me how this is SOMEHOW insufficient protection. The only 2 people who have both a motive and means of even setting FOOT on the island are either the main villain of the story or completely out of the picture.

It's not insufficient, and I never said it was. But in addition to what I said previously, people tend to hold some of the more well known newer characters by the balls so keep them from appearing that I say it's fair game to do so for a Classic character in a similar position.

Is there honestly, HONESTLY a reason to include some half-assed reason for the M.E's status to constantly be shoehorned into the plot, when at the end of the day it has NO bearing on the overall plot, nor Knuckles as a character?

That ignoring it or forgetting about it for Knuckles can just about allow the same thing to be done for any other character in a similar position, i.e. Blaze belonging to an alternate dimension.

As I've said many times before, if you're going to disregard something that ties one character down, you'll end up having someone do the same for another character in a similar position using whatever excuse they can. Unless you're cool with that; which even if you were, I wouldn't be.

The idea I made would make a complete loophole around that risk to achieve the same effect with absolutely NO problem for the character should he decide to randomly go out because he can. I'd say that's pretty necessary to finally close off the problem many people keep shouting about it, as they wouldn't have anything about it to criticize from that point on.

Personally, I'd be packing my life preservers. That Island is going down fast. Rouge would make off with the Emerald first chance she got.

And make an enemy of GUN who would be watching it in exchange for a tactical location above the earth causing even more problems than just having Knuckles on her ass? That would be pretty ballsy of her, and as much of a thief she is I don't think she would risk that.

She may have gotten away with her involvement in blowing up Prison Island in SA2 for the sake her mission (if we even want to say that), but I doubt she would get away with something like that. If GUN doesn't do anything about it, Knuckles, and eventually Sonic and Tails, will.

Edited December 16, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

Ok lets clear somethings up, shall we. The Master Emerald isn't going to always be involved in the plot, just like how the Chaos Emeralds aren't going to always be apart of the plot. But just because it doens't appear a few doesn't mean we should axe the damn thing, its just as important as the Chaos Emeralds. Why? Even though he's tame now, it still serves as the seal for Chaos, whom can come back at anytime. And its more powerful than the Chaos Emeralds, so hypothetically speaking, if the Eggman gets all 7 gems, the M.E. is the only logical alternative to stopping Eggman.

Despite all of the above, Knuckles can, and will leave the island from time to time for whatever reason it may be, why? Like we said its a continent in the sky so someone getting there would be difficult(Actually now that I think about it, how does Knuckles get up there?), and he's probably filled the island with traps to deal with anyone who even go nears the damn thing.

[Rusty Spy]

It'll let Knuckles do what he wants without anyone questioning the M.E.'s protection permanently...

If that any of that was done, people WILL leave the damn, will SHUT UP about who's babysitting it, and NOT WORRY about whether or not it has anything to do with the current story. Would you want folks to continue arguing about it, or would you actually like to have a way that will finally lay the issue to rest?

[...]

But in addition to what I said previously, people tend to hold some of the more well known newer characters by the balls so keep them from appearing that I say it's fair game to do so for a Classic character in a similar position.

But that only sidesteps the issue that the M.E is just a massive crux to Knuckles in every story that doesn't involve it directly in some form, and it seriously annoys me how people are being so anal about that stupid rock and just accept the fact that nothing's gonna happen to the damn thing.

That ignoring it or forgetting about it for Knuckles can just about allow the same thing to be done for any other character in a similar position, i.e. Blaze belonging to an alternate dimension.

As I've said many times before, if you're going to disregard something that ties one character down, you'll end up having someone do the same for another character in a similar position. Unless you're cool with that; which even if you were, I wouldn't be.

Less so that I'm okay with that, but more so that there's no physical force preventing Knuckles from tagging along on adventures, unlike Blaze, where for one, the thing that's tying her down is a more immediate aspect that simply handwaving feels like a total asspull and a pretty big dangling plot thread if you were to do that, where as for Knuckles, the only thing between him an the current story is a short glide over to the action.

Which is why it sounds so stupid for people to go out of their way to want to know who's watching the emerald when really, WHY DOES IT MATTER?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But that only sidesteps the issue that the M.E is just a massive crux to Knuckles in every story that doesn't involve it directly in some form, and it seriously annoys me how people are being so anal about that stupid rock and just accept the fact that nothing's gonna happen to the damn thing.

That's pretty much the whole point in doing that.

Less so that I'm okay with that, but more so that there's no physical force preventing Knuckles from tagging along on adventures, unlike Blaze, where for one, the thing that's tying her down is a more immediate aspect that simply handwaving feels like a total asspull and a pretty big dangling plot thread if you were to do that, where as for Knuckles, the only thing between him an the current story is a short glide over to the action.

I still wouldn't tolerate either one happening without an explanation in some form. And it's not like there isn't more than one way to do it.

Which is why it sounds so stupid for people to go out of their way to want to know who's watching the emerald when really, WHY DOES IT MATTER?

It matters to me because I don't like knowing that these things are disregarded or unacknowledged just to have the character in the plot. If I see a problem I want it fixed, and since people want Knuckles to be around more even with this problem dangling over our heads I made a solution that addresses both our wants without making further problems as a result.

Hell, in addition, you could very well say it could serve to build even more into Knuckles character in future plots. Now why fight that solely for the sake of necessity when it can make both sides happy and not worry about it anymore?

Edited December 16, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[The Weeb with No Name]

I don't know if you guys have noticed, but the Master Emerald hasn't been mentioned or alluded to in almost ten years.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

^And you want those who are concerned about it to leave it at that and ignore it? Well I'll be damned if I do.

Every character other than Sonic, Tails, Amy, and Eggman haven't made a appearance on a mainstream title in 4 years, you want us to leave it at that as well?

Edited December 16, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Sega DogTagz]

And make an enemy of GUN who would be watching it in exchange for a tactical location above the earth causing even more problems than just having Knuckles on her ass? That would be pretty ballsy of her, and as much of a thief she is I don't think she would risk that.

She may have gotten away with her involvement in blowing up Prison Island in SA2 for the sake her mission (if we even want to say that), but I doubt she would get away with something like that. If GUN doesn't do anything about it, Knuckles, and eventually Sonic and Tails, will.

Rouge has never let her day job ruin her thievery practices. In Battle and Heroes, Rouge was more than will to to some stealing. In fact, in Battle Rouge practically gave her pass to the GUN laboratory to Tails. She clearly could care less what the higher ups think. Her past actions leave me to believe that she would swipe the Master Emerald from under their noses without a second thought. She can technically pull rank on them anyway.

Rouge has never been afraid of Knuckles ire either. So that only leaves Sonic and Tails. Now I'll ask you a question. Why would Knuckles leave himself open to a mess that Sonic and Tails (or even himself) be forced to clean up. He's better off alone than involving Rouge in any way possible.

[The Weeb with No Name]

^And you want those who are concerned about it to leave it at that and ignore it? Well I'll be damned if I do.

It's practically been retconned.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Now I'll ask you a question. Why would Knuckles leave himself open to a mess that Sonic and Tails (or even himself) be forced to clean up. He's better off alone than involving Rouge in any way possible.

Well for one, he's been willing involving himself in a some messes that don't even concern him much at all and with other people, so I don't see how he's better off alone and yet he should still be helping in other peoples business.

But it's not like he's intentionally opening himself to the mess from the start if you read my entire scenario in involving GUN in the first place. As a matter of fact, in that very solution I made the mess had already begun before the clean up came in to have GUN consider taking in the Island as a protectorate and allow Knuckles more freedom to explore while they help guard it during his away times. If anything, it was the mess that built up a solution in the end when things came to an understanding, if that makes any sense to you.

It's practically been retconned.

Says who? As far as I'm concerned, it's been disregarded than retconned.

Edited December 16, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[The Weeb with No Name]

EDIT: holding, I'm typing an answer.

Says who?

It doesn't need to be said. The fact that it's been gone for ten years implies it as such.

Seriously, with a "canon" as loose as Sonic's, does the Sonic Team of today really care about the consistency of some plot device that hasn't been used for nearly a decade?

Edited December 16, 2010 by Jayhawker30

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It doesn't need to be said. The fact that it's been gone for ten years implies it as such.

Really? Because the fact that it's been gone for ten years has pretty much implied neglect where I'm standing.

Seriously, with a "canon" as loose as Sonic's, does the Sonic Team of today really care about the consistency of some plot device that hasn't been used for nearly a decade?

Yes?

Why shouldn't they when they've continued to use other plot devices for almost 2 decades? Or remembered other aspects of characters that shaped them to who they are? Why should this one plot device be the exception and be considered "retconned" when it can very well be assumed that it isn't? This series canon isn't that damn loose.

Edited December 16, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Sega DogTagz]

Well for one, he's been willing involving himself in a some messes that don't even concern him much at all and with other people, so I don't see how he's better off alone and yet he should still be helping in other peoples business.

But it's not like he's intentionally opening himself to the mess from the start if you read my entire scenario in involving GUN in the first place. As a matter of fact, in that very solution I made the mess had already begun before the clean up came in to have GUN consider taking in the Island as a protectorate and allow Knuckles more freedom to explore while they help guard it during his away times. If anything, it was the mess that built up a solution in the end when things came to an understanding, if that makes any sense to you.

That's all fine and well, I just think Knuckles would have too much of an issue with giving the Fox the key to the Chicken Coop. Especially considering the grudge he hold against her. In Colors he was watching her as if she might steal his shoes if he blinked.

[Kuzu]

I dunno Afro(Jayhawker) makes a good point, I'm not saying it should be retconned, but unless it gets a role in a future storyline, does it really need to go into detail why he left it alone? Seems like a waste of time, He left it alone and now he's here. That's all I really need to know.

I have a problem when he's off the island, but not contributing anything to what's going on.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

That's all fine and well, I just think Knuckles would have too much of an issue with giving the Fox the key to the Chicken Coop. Especially considering the grudge he hold against her. In Colors he was watching her as if she might steal his shoes if he blinked.

Oh no, don't give her the key...although, with her being a thief she probably doesn't need one.

But really, if GUN is protecting the Island with Knuckles, Rouge would more than likely have to follow suit and I doubt she would be allowed to get away with stealing the M.E..

In SA2, she wasn't assigned to protect anything throughout the whole, she was assigned to get information on the events going on with Eggman along with gathering data on Project Shadow IIRC. While I still have no clue how that even trumps her involvment on Prison Island (although she did get busted by a GUN personnel), she did do her duties regardless.

But that could still make a good plot.

I dunno Afro(Jayhawker) makes a good point, I'm not saying it should be retconned, but unless it gets a role in a future storyline, does it really need to go into detail why he left it alone? Seems like a waste of time, He left it alone and now he's here. That's all I really need to know.

I need to know, like every other character who gets involved, why he's getting involved and how the events going on are of any of his business. You don't need to be Shakespeare to be able to explain those two simple things, and each character has unique qualities about them (Rouge and Shadow with GUN, Chaotix with their Detective work, and Knuckles with his ME/Floating Island) that would need their business to intertwine with the plot. There are hardly any execptions with me on this.

Edited December 16, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[The Weeb with No Name]

Why shouldn't they when they've continued to use other plot devices for almost 2 decades? Or remembered other aspects of characters that shaped them to who they are? Why should this one plot device be the exception and be considered "retconned" when it can very well be assumed that it isn't? This series canon isn't that damn loose.

...has it really been 20 years? My God, where has the time gone...

Er, anywho... I'm not saying that there's a good reason why they stopped using the Master Emerald, I'm just stating the fact that they did, and that it can't be realistically expected for them to go back to a forgotten plot device just for the sake of bringing it back.

The team of today has other shit to worry about, I'm sure.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Jayhawker30

[Kuzu]

...has it really been 20 years? My God, where has the time gone...

Er, anywho... I'm not saying that there's a good reason why they stopped using the Master Emerald, I'm just stating the fact that they did, and that it can't be realistically expected for them to go back to a forgotten plot device just for the sake of bringing it back.

The team of today has other shit to worry about, I'm sure.

Well if they did get rid of the M.E. I guess it wouldn't be a huge loss considering like you said, it hasn't served a role in over 10 years(Or 2 if you wanna count Chronicles, and even then it wasn't a huge role).

Maybe Knuckles can be an Indiana Jones type character, ya know he is a treasure hunter, and it would give him another duty to be tied to. Also it can be an excuse to bring back his awesome hat from the OVA.

[The Weeb with No Name]

Holy shit Chaos, you're close to Japan.

Where u at?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Er, anywho... I'm not saying that there's a good reason why they stopped using the Master Emerald, I'm just stating the fact that they did, and that it can't be realistically expected for them to go back to a forgotten plot device just for the sake of bringing it back.

Yes it bloody well can.

Exactly how is it unrealistic for them to go back to something they haven't used in a decade? They haven't made use of Metal Sonic or the Chaotix as characters since Sonic CD and Knuckles Chaotix respectively until they made Heroes, and bar it's paper thin plot, we weren't expecting them to do that.

With that said, I fail to see how going back to M.E. would be unrealistic.

Holy shit Chaos, you're close to Japan.

Where u at?

What are you talking about?

Edited December 16, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[The Weeb with No Name]

Yes it bloody well can.

Exactly how is it unrealistic for them to go back to something they haven't used in a decade? They haven't made use of Metal Sonic or the Chaotix as characters since Sonic CD and Knuckles Chaotix respectively until they made Heroes, and bar it's paper thin plot, we weren't expecting them to do that.

With that said, I fail to see how going back to M.E. would be unrealistic.

Riddle me this.

Why would they bring the Master Emerald back?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Riddle me this.

Why would they bring the Master Emerald back?

Simple. I got four answers:

1)To use it in a plot. It doesn't have to be the typical break the ME and find the pieces either.

2)To build a character involved with it. I'm sure Knuckles, Shadow, or Sonic could definitely use its energy for something to help with answer #1

3)To show that it still exists and isn't neglected. Lord knows that would ease a lot of debates about it here.

4)To show that Knuckles is still it's guardian. Which he hasn't much of as of late.

You got something challenging?

Hell, riddle me why would they bring back Metal Sonic or the Chaotix? I'm sure you would end up with very similar answers, right?

Edited December 16, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[The Weeb with No Name]

Simple. I got four answers:

-To use it in a plot.

-To build a character involved with it.

-To show that it still exists and isn't neglected.

-To show that Knuckles is still it's guardian.

You got something challenging?

Hell, riddle me why would they bring back Metal Sonic or the Chaotix? I'm sure you would end up with very similar answers, right?

Saw that one coming.

Metal Sonic: Robotic foil and doppelganger of the hero and general fan favorite, brought back to action for surprising effect as not only a returning nemesis but the true mastermind behind a generally predictable plot.

Chaotix: A quirky bunch of misfits returning to add some variety and another team to help round out preexisting ones. Why make new characters* for another team when we can just snatch some of the old ones and call it a day? Besides, they're cool as shit.

Master Emerald: Second rate Mac Guffin primary to the lore of a side character, based on seven preexisting Mac Guffins that already pretty much do whatever the plot needs them to do.

...yeah.

By the way, let me add one other thing. Has everyone noticed just how different Colors and Unleashed are to the other main games? Not only in their thematic elements, but with their focuses being on the plot at hand rather than the events of the past, whether it be the old school, new school, or Iizuka's own school.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Jayhawker30