Spin Dash or Boost

[Sean]

I have amalgamated your memorandum with this antecedent proclamation. I inquire, how did the original bulletin sport a poll?

[Dummy Bear]

From the way some people seem to talk and crap, it almost sounds as if people care more about physics than a fun game.

Personally, I don't care much for the boost for one reason and one reason only: It makes you practically invincible. I mean, yes it makes you go so godamn fast, but it ultimately takes away from the challenge factor. It's probably one of the reasons we have more bottomless pits, because you can't kill a bottomless pit with your boost.

And I also agree that the super peel out was useless and stupid, except in Triple Trouble where it gave a second of invulnerablility. I don't mean to sound like a purist, but spin dash all the way.

[Phos]

From the way some people seem to talk and crap, it almost sounds as if people care more about physics than a fun game.

Hehe, You'll have to excuse those posts of mine that were dredged up, I was still very bitter from the release of Black Knight. Yeah, I know it was roughly a month later, but I don't exactly have many ways to vent that sort of frustration.

Much like Jaouad said, I don't think the boost would have much purpose within a properly designed Sonic level.

[redmenace]

Why can't we have both? If I have to chose though, spindash.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Why can't we have both? If I have to chose though, spindash.

I suppose we could just have a boost that curls you up into a ball. The PS2/Wii version of Unleashed sort of did that...You'd spin attack when you boosted into a dash panel or loop.

[Rusty Spy]

Why can't we have both? If I have to chose though, spindash.

We could, but not the way it is in Unleashed/Rush. That boost pretty much completely overpowers the spindash as well as several power-ups. If the boost were like Advance 2, it could work very well.

[Sega DogTagz]

I would think both could coexist if physics played a greater role in the newer games. Downhill slopes dont pick up speed in a roll like they used to in the Genesis games, or even SA2 for that matter.

You can leave the boost in its current form, and then use the spindash to increase the top speed by taking advantage of the environment (ala SA2).

[Blacklightning]

Ugh, I really wanted this post to be bigger but of all things, it seems I've hit a writer's block. Don't be surprised if this sounds stupid in some way.

Much like Jaouad said, I don't think the boost would have much purpose within a properly designed Sonic level.

To my understanding, the philosophy of "a properly designed Sonic level" is one that takes advantage of the game's existing core gameplay mechanics. Classic level designs are not designed to take advantage of the boost, but rather, rolling and slope physics - therefore in the context of the boost move they can actually be considered bad Sonic level designs. Which is to say, Captain Obvious says "hi".

Though what a good Sonic level design in context of the boost is, is anyone's guess. Probably something to do with fewer completely unpredictable insta-death hazards (Adabat is infamous for these) and setpieces designed for twitch reflexes and unflinching speed for the best result (Shamar's falling pillars, good example).

Edited September 2, 2009 by Blacklightning

[Phos]

Part of being a "properly designer Sonic level" is not having massive segments of doing nothing but running along a path that, from the perspective of what inputs are required, is basically linear. Apart from the few times you need to use it cause the wall slide to allow for a wall jump, that's mostly what it's for. Most of the other places where it was integral had their own problems. Water running, the Shamar pillars, and that cavern in Holaska with the giant stalactites falling were all basically based off of memorizing what was about to happen, with the primary difference being how the game punishes you for screwing it up.

There are a few boost focused parts that I actually did like. I kind of liked the bit in Rooftop Run where you you were on the rooftops of a few buildings running into the screen. It seemed more interesting because it didn't punish you for daring to question the route the designers laid out, and didn't massively hold you up if you screwed something up. It's kind of the same sort of this I say about a bunch of the gimmicks that appear in several levels of Unleashed, that they were interesting, but only interesting enough to be used in one level. Things such as skydiving, those things that shoot you in one direction or another, baloons, those sort of things. The bit in Rooftop Run I'm talking about is different from these in that it only appeared in one level. I will say that for how easy it was, it seems a tad long (details)

The other time I thought the boost was used really well was in Adabat, when you're running along and the floor starts rising up threatening to crush you against the ceiling. It was rather suspenseful. There were parts of the classic games that were a lot alike this, but the boost added something here, it added emphasis that you were going as fast as you could to escape the threat, as in a "Our hero has to give it everything he's got to get out of this jam" sort of thing.

These type of things don't really seem worth having the boost there for the whole game. The first one might seem a tad played out and only really needs the boost because of how much you are probably going to stop and start going through here, and the second one could be done in so many ways. For example, you could give Sonic a worried expression on his face if you end up cutting it close, or something like that.

Hehe, I just realized that Sonic Unleashed is like some kind of love child between Hydro Thunder and Battletoads.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Phos

[theRingThing]

this is quite funny because me and my friend were just discussing this the other day because i was playing sonic unleashed and addressed the fact about how the boost would work we camer up with that without the boost sonic is just running kinda slow but when you use the boost he goes full speed but then we were like " but where does the blue energy come from then" and none of us could think of a proper reason for it and then we thought about the spin Dash and i was like " why is the spin dash been taken away from sonic?" and anyway my friend said because the idea of a boost is better because it is faster more practical and all over just makes sense but i do miss the spin dash purely for nostalgic reasons

[Daisoku]

I don't know if this has been touched upon, but wasn't the spin dash taken away purely for control reaso-

No...

Wait...

SA1 and SA2 did it... They were 3D...

So why the sudden removal!?

[Ebby]

Man, fuck the peel out. It never did anything more than look pretty.

Psh, it barely did that. The Peel Out was one of the most useless things made (It's right up there with that goddamn insta-shield!!!! Fuck that thing!!! )

I think I'll sigh if I see another one of these topics. But hey, people's opinions are cool....

Anyway, spin dashing just doesn't work in 3D. It didn't in Adventure or its sequel. It can barely be controlled, a person ends up going up walls and such. If the Sonic games were only 3D side scrolling, then yeah it could work. Otherwise, Nope. Keep it in 2D please.

Boosting is love. I can't see how people hate boosting. Going NUTS on the x button is my thing. And, as I've said before, boosting is like a standing up Spin Dash. It's the same concept.

[MobileChicaneX]

Ive just noticed that a spindash on the 360 version of unleashed wouldv'e looked beutiful, sonics jump in unleashed was awesome with all the light effects and the spindash wouldv'e looked cool.

[Daisoku]

Boosting is love. I can't see how people hate boosting. Going NUTS on the x button is my thing. And, as I've said before, boosting is like a standing up Spin Dash. It's the same concept.

Exept when you spin dash, you have to be standing still, but to activate the boost, you can be moving. /nitpicking

[Arrow]

Both plz. Because they ARE NOT THE SAME THING...

I think boosting should be a way to gain speed instantly and destroy small enemies. It's something that should be used intelligently by the player for missions that are time based and on linear levels. There is no need to stop to boost, which is why I like it.

I think there should be a way to curl into a ball whilst boosting, or at least whilst running, like in the original games. Whilst this would hinder the player into not having so much control over Sonic because he'd be coasting whilst in a ball, it would allow him to destroy enemies sensibly. So boosting wouldn't be "uuber" for want of a better word.

Spindash, however, is an element for more exploratory based play. It should be a way to destroy enemies, probably larger ones than boost will allow, or at least flip them/cause them to fall over. (Then we could have "tortoise" enemies. Ones that are protected on top/front.) Spindash can also be used to brake through walls and such.

Spindash cannot be forgotten, mostly because Sonic is a hedgehog and curling up in a ball is a fundamental point of being a hedgehog. Boosting, however, is something that I feel strongly should be developed because it's... well, it's cool. And Sonic happens to be fast. And acceleration is far more important when experiencing illusion of speed than top speed is. There is something far cooler about acceleration. I want to be able to hit the boost button and feel like I'm nraking the sound barrier. BOOM. And the scenery warps a bit and I want some funky pressure waves, and... yeaaah, please. Sega, just please?

Edited September 2, 2009 by Arrow

[Badnik Zero]

I'm of the opinion that the dash and boost are NOT compatible. So earlier talk of combining the two seems a little crazy to me.

There's actually two kinds of spin dash, but no one's mentioned it yet. The classic one was a twist on rolling - instead of pressing down on a slope, you could press down anywhere and start revving for that same speed - the series' first instant speed move. Instant speed wasn't too bad there, because the move still followed the rules of the game. Without extra momentum from hills or loops Sonic would return to normal speed. It could also only be used from a standstill. The dash was created to make the game more fluid. Instead of backtracking to build enough speed for a loop, you could just dash. It wasn't meant to replace rolling, because rolling basically was a spin dash on the go.

The Adventure dash though, did change the rules. Instead of relying on slopes to gain momentum, the spin dash could be used during movement. This actually changes the move a lot. The original was a "get up and go" kind of recovery move, for a quick start. The Adventure dash doesn't care about starts because it can be used on the go, which means it's spammable, which equals constant speed and momentum. I'd say the Adventure dash is closer to the boost than the original spin dash - both are constant speed moves. Not that breaking the rules of the game is necessarily bad, since Rush and Unleashed have established their own rules. One thing I don't like about the constant speed moves is that Sonic levels no longer contribute to Sonic's speed. Where running down a hill in the old games meant momentum, a hill might as well be a straightaway in the new games because the source of speed is the boost meter, it's all built in. It makes for less interesting levels, IMO.

For those of us that think the boost is a little too fast, Sega could do a few things. Because a boost-centric game needs boost-centric levels, there's gotta be levels that work with both the boost and regular speed gameplay. Some of you mentioned the peel-out, and I think that was a mostly useless move. It was probably included to aid Sonic with time travel in that game. But the boost could be what the peel-out couldn't, the ultimate max-speed move. With limitations of course. Boosting dominates games because the meter is easy to fill and it makes you near invincible. It'd be good to borrow from the peel-out and remove that invincibility, but for the sake of balance I say remove both the meter and the invincibility. If endless boost is too strong, then maybe have the move actually consume rings (maybe 2 rings per second of boost, like a miniature Super Sonic) in addition to leaving you vulnerable, that way you need a good amount of rings to pull it off, and the player would want to use it strategically.

TLDR - The boost and dash combined is already the Adventure dash. Take the boost down a notch and use both of them.

It didn't in Adventure or its sequel. It can barely be controlled, a person ends up going up walls and such.

Shouldn't going up walls be the point? Adventure's controls weren't too bad, just a bit shaky. I think they'd do a better job today.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Goldar

[Chooch]

I think it'd be fine to have boost as a means to gain speed whilst avoiding enemy attacks (Quick Stepping, whatever) or just running at supersonic speed whereas Spin Dash would be needed to actually mow down enemies in front of you.

You wouldn't be able to Quick Step while doing the Spin Dash so there would be a need for both. I don't see why people insist that you can't have one without the other or you have to combine the two. They can easily co-exist and both be useful.

[azoo]

Spindash cannot be forgotten, mostly because Sonic is a hedgehog and curling up in a ball is a fundamental point of being a hedgehog. Boosting, however, is something that I feel strongly should be developed because it's... well, it's cool. And Sonic happens to be fast. And acceleration is far more important when experiencing illusion of speed than top speed is. There is something far cooler about acceleration. I want to be able to hit the boost button and feel like I'm nraking the sound barrier. BOOM. And the scenery warps a bit and I want some funky pressure waves, and... yeaaah, please. Sega, just please?

Yay, somebody besides me notices that Sonic is not just fast but a hedgehog too! =D

Shouldn't going up walls be the point? Adventure's controls weren't too bad, just a bit shaky. I think they'd do a better job today.

Yes, I'm sure that SA1's controls would be improved if they redid them nowadays. The true answer to the "shakiness" problem is just to tighten the controls anyways.

But I agree with the others by saying that we need both items, for different reasons.

The Boost should be, by any means, slowed down a bit, and shouldn't make you invincible. However, do become mostly invulnerable, you could roll while boosting. Another way to put it is that the Boost could make you go somewhat fast to begin with (like at the beginning you see Sonic with afterimages) and then as you accelerate in this Boost, you get up to "extreme speed" with the crazy visual effects and the wind going by and the warped music and everything. So it gives you instant high speeds, but you must keep holding it so you could gain momentum for the insane speed.

Spindash would work like SA2's; it takes a bit to charge for high speeds, requires high amounts of momentum, and requires you to come to a standstill. But, it gives you the ability to bash up enemies without losing speed. That would be the problem with rolling while boosting; you would lose your given speed in placement for pinball mechanics. That's why Spindashing would be influenced upon the player.

[nUcLeArEnVoY]

Haha. I always had an idea how the spindash can be implemented more usefully in 3D gameplay. The character would spin and you can turn your spinning physique in several directions to aim and then fire and there could even be a crosshair target that automatically locks onto enemies or obstacles meant to be taken care of by the spindash. Too complicated for Sonic gameplay, though. (:: Looks at Sonic Unleashed control scheme. :: ) ... wait.

[Djawed]

Im really hopin sonicteam wont add it in the next game and bring back the spindash to demenstrate what i mean. I really hope so. So a discussion wont be neccesary anyomre

But sonicteam knowing i cant expect them to do it again but lets just see.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Jaouad

[Phos]

Man, fuck the peel out. It never did anything more than look pretty.

Psh, it barely did that. The Peel Out was one of the most useless things made (It's right up there with that goddamn insta-shield!!!! Fuck that thing!!! )

It's indespensible for Time Attacking in Sonic CD.

Anyway, spin dashing just doesn't work in 3D. It didn't in Adventure or its sequel. It can barely be controlled, a person ends up going up walls and such. If the Sonic games were only 3D side scrolling, then yeah it could work. Otherwise, Nope. Keep it in 2D please.

In the classic games, you had reduced control over your direction of travel when you were rolling. In Sonic Adventure 1/2, you could turn as normal but not change in speed, giving it a very twitchy feeling. The Spin Dash could be handled a whole lot better than it has been thus far. I think it would still be necessary for Sonic to be able to turn while rolling, but put a limit on it so it isn't so twitchy.

An idea I had as a sort of compromise between boost and no boost was a variant of the Peel Out. The charge could be started while in motion and Sonic would be carried by momentum while it's charging, he'd coast as though you just stopped pushing anything. I also think it would be helpful to let Sonic change direction during this process so you can control where you're going to end up if something moves or as an advanced technique for time attacking.

[Gatestormer]

A small point, but if we keep on getting the boost, I think something that would be unbelievably epic next time would be that whilst in the boost, we get a whell-of-feet, or a peel-out motion. Arms back etc can be used for casual running, when we break the sound barrier, what's wrong with going wheel-of-feet peel-out?

It'd look IN-FUCKING-CREDIBLE.

[azoo]

In the classic games, you had reduced control over your direction of travel when you were rolling. In Sonic Adventure 1/2, you could turn as normal but not change in speed, giving it a very twitchy feeling. The Spin Dash could be handled a whole lot better than it has been thus far. I think it would still be necessary for Sonic to be able to turn while rolling, but put a limit on it so it isn't so twitchy.

Agreed.

An idea I had as a sort of compromise between boost and no boost was a variant of the Peel Out. The charge could be started while in motion and Sonic would be carried by momentum while it's charging, he'd coast as though you just stopped pushing anything. I also think it would be helpful to let Sonic change direction during this process so you can control where you're going to end up if something moves or as an advanced technique for time attacking.

I don't exactly understand. Can you please verify what you mean? I'm sorry, I'm sort of confused. =P

[Rusty Spy]

I don't exactly understand. Can you please verify what you mean? I'm sorry, I'm sort of confused. =P

I think it's sort of like a standing version of the spindash.

Imagine the 90 degree turns in City Escape. As you approach them, you start charging up the peel out and aim 90 degrees to the side as you begin coasting towards the turn, then release and dash off instantly without missing a beat.

Though one major flaw I can see with it is that it sounds easily spammable. While the spindash was next to useless for gaining speed on the run on anything but a downhill incline, this peel out could be used anywhere due to Sonic not being as affected by physics while running.

[azoo]

True, although this idea actually sounds like SA1's Spindash without the ability to kill enemies. So I guess it balances everything out. Peel-Out makes you fast and spammable, but it doesn't hurt enemies, leaving you extremely vulnerable and making where you have to be cautious when using it. The Spindash, although also making you go fast and such, would allow you to hurt enemies, but it wouldn't be spammable, physics would highly restrain the move, and the controls would be highly tightened to where rolling movement would have to be for basic straight-foward purposes.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Black Ranger Azukara