So how is this game, again?

[Emmett L. Brown]

I'm talking about the ending, where you're launched out and flying. You don't hold right and you just fall straight down into the pit. It's pretty fucked up.

Ah, pardon me. In that case I have to agree with you on that one. Died a few times due to that shortcoming myself.

Man nobody gives a flying fuck in a cock blender if you fuckin' drop the f-bomb all the fuck over every-fucking-where as long as you're not a fucking assfuck about the fucking shit man.

Well demonstrated. I shall refrain from such silliness.

Edited October 24, 2010 by Grumpy Old Guy

[Random Rhyme]

Actually, that's the one part of this game that really annoyed me. Every single level has a really cheap peril right before the goal. It's either a bottomless pit, lots of crushers, or naughtily placed enemies, just to make sure you'll lose the rings necessary to enter the special stage. And of course there's hardly ever 50 rings available past the last checkpoint. Ironic that Mad Gear act 3's final trick is the least likely to kill you of the lot. Guess they thought they'd ease up before the finale. Like those five 10-ring boxes right before the goal in Starlight Zone act 2.

This is my main annoyance.

The one that stands out for me is the final set of cards in Casino Street Zone Act 2. Those finals perils also mess up my time attack runs.

[Saint Nathan]

The one that stands out for me is the final set of cards in Casino Street Zone Act 2.

As long as you jump dash before you land on the first card you should get across EASILY. Like no issues. Then about two thirds of the way across, jump and jump dash again and you'll go over the little hurdle. Unless you mean the ones right by the goal post, with the bumper gate thing. That one is a bitch.

[Scott]

The problem: The physics suck.

The solution: Hold right.

Conclusion: Hey, this game is fun now.

Once you adjust to the hold-right mentality, this game is really fun, and probably Dimps's best work in terms of level design and style. Just by playing this game like I would play Sonic 1 back in the mid-nineties, by focusing on holding right during the running and leaping stretches, then slowing down for the platforming, I found exactly zero physics problems in my playthrough, which is a much smaller number than "this game is broken"-teen. Yes, Sonic had momentum back in the Genesis games so he wouldn't drop out of the air if you let go of the stick during a leap, but I can't think of a single player back then who'd do so.

If you want to find flaws in this game, then you don't have to try hard. Why, half the internet has already done the job for you. But if you want a fun Sonic game, then it's right there in front of you, so why ruin your shiny new toy by picking it apart? It's hard to put it back together once you focus entirely on the flaws.

OMG this, 1000 times this!!!

His opinion nailed it perfectly

And I'll expand, Fans wanted Sonic 4, so SEGA gave them Sonic 4, It's only Episode 1, stop bitching, I mean, yeah the price is too high, I mean Megaman 9 and 10 were only 800MP and they lasted longer and were more of a challenge I mean 1200MP was my only problem.

If you wanna break the physics, go ahead, you've already payed for the game,SEGA's made the money from it and will continue to later, and they're just tiny little details that you shouldnt care about, I will always definetly call this Sonic 4, to me, it lives upto the title, especially when you take into consideration that most of the staff whom worked on the originals didn't work on this, they tried to re-create the physics, and I certainly love what they done, sure If the game came out closer to the time after Sonic and Knuckles, it woulda played just like them, It's reaally not bad for a current-aged Sonic platformer (especially since current-gen consoles NEED more platformers).

Also like I said, it's only Episode 1, they could just be trying to get into the feeling of the classics, by rehashing the bosses and stages, they would have known what it is like to create and add classic zones/bosses to give them the vibe to create new ideas for Episode 2.

Anyways, thats my two cents

[Emmett L. Brown]

Call me crazy, but I hope Dimps continues taking classic Sonic levels, recreating them for the first act, and then throwing in neat twists and further evolutions on the same theme for the second and third acts. The second act of the casino level was where I found both the best and worst of the game (the neat twists and the cheap deaths right before the goal). I'm hoping to see reworked versions of Starlight Zone, Wing Fortress Zone, Ice Cap Zone, and especially my favourite level in the series: Lava Reef Zone Act 1 (act 2 had such dull music compared to the first, but still a good level).

And just for the sake of Sonic CD's Metal Sonic boss fight, I really hope they continue taking classics bosses and throwing in new twists.

[Tornado]

they tried to re-create the physics

I doubt that they even attempted to do so.

[Blue Blood]

... It's only Episode 1, stop bitching

I really don't get that logic. The first episode is shit (before you call me out on that, it's an opinion) so why shouldn't we complain?

especially when you take into consideration that most of the staff whom worked on the originals didn't work on this, they tried to re-create the physics

That has nothing to do with anything. Fans have perfectly recreated the physics before and Dimps just made zero effort for this game. They simply adjusted Rush the tiniest amount (just speed/acceleration I believe) and did nothing else. Absolutely no attempt to recreate the classic physics. That should be obvious.

Edited October 24, 2010 by Blue Blood

[DistantJ]

You guys are missing the point of this topic.

Physics has never been a problem for me

He's asking the opinion of people who are more casual about such things like he is himself, if you want to come in here as well to try and prove that those of us who don't give a shit are 'wrong' about everything then we might as well just continue the general impressions topic. Also, I've been away for a while, I'm absolutely amazed to come back to see it's the same handful of people persisting to try and change all of our minds... Do you really have nothing better to do?

[Blue Blood]

You guys are missing the point of this topic.

The point of this topic is, to quote the first post, "Is it as broken as it looks?". The answer to that is yes, it is that broken. All of those gameplay oddities happen and not just under exceptional circumstances either. They're easy to pull off with minimum effort and can even occur from just playing the game normally. Whether or not that bothers you, Turbojet or anyone else is entirely down to individual judgement. And likewise everyone will hold their own opinions about the sound, visuals, concepts etc etc. This topic is trying to make sense of opinions, and separate them from fact.

Fact: Sonic loses all momentum very soon after the player stops holding the d-pad/analogue stick.

Opinon: Sonic's momentum is terrible and ruins the game.

Another opinion for good measure: The new physics actually make game easier and more fun.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Blue Blood

[Emmett L. Brown]

Okay, I want to add one of those "opinion" things that are all the rage these days.

Opinion: It's possible to play the game without being bothered by the physics absurdities.

And without the physics absurdities, there's not much to complain about with this game. No, wait. I'm sorry. I forgot I was on the internet for a moment. There's a whale-staggering load of things to complain about, but nothing major. Oh, drat, that's just another opinion. I'm bad at this.

[Tornado]

Also, I've been away for a while, I'm absolutely amazed to come back to see it's the same handful of people persisting to try and change all of our minds... Do you really have nothing better to do?

Wow, what a clairvoyant and original viewpoint that is in no way a hilariously fucking ironic thing for you to say.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Tornado

[Sean]

You guys are missing the point of this topic.

He's asking the opinion of people who are more casual about such things like he is himself, if you want to come in here as well to try and prove that those of us who don't give a shit are 'wrong' about everything then we might as well just continue the general impressions topic. Also, I've been away for a while, I'm absolutely amazed to come back to see it's the same handful of people persisting to try and change all of our minds... Do you really have nothing better to do?

I don't see anybody here doing anything more severe than what you constantly insisted to others in the past.

Your emotive reactions to things like this is going to quickly turn this discussion into something it is not. I recommend that you don't.

[DistantJ]

OK.

Then I'll just answer the topic originator's question.

The game is great. Everybody I have recommended it to and showed it to, all old school Sonic fans, have loved it. These are not dumb or ignorant people, these are smart people with good taste in games. People with good jobs, a good eye. Even games designers. Old school friend who won an award for best game design project out of multiple colleges around the UK and now works for Eurocom (developers of GoldenEye 007 Wii, though he's working on a DS game) said best Sonic since the originals, old college friend who now teaches game design said it was perfect. IGN said it was great. Most other reviews did. A few I have spoken to have said the new jump momentum (or lack of) is to give more strategy to the dash attack, I would probably agree. About 5 people on this forum find it to be 'broken' and like to imply that if you don't spot these 'game breaking flaws' such as faster aerial deceleration (*gasp!*) then you're dumb, 'in denial' or ignorant and don't understand games, just like the award winning game designer and games design lecturer I just mentioned, and IGN and other successful game review sites, I guess they don't understand games as well as a handful of Sonic obsessives do. You should be able to get your answer about the game's quality from this paragraph. Go ahead, check the game out for yourself, enjoy it, and don't be predisposed by some of the crap that goes on in here.

Edited October 30, 2010 by DistantJ

[Tornado]

I've always found it entertaining that Sonic fans (in particular) treat IGN as a horrible terrible site made up of IGNorant assholes who can barely function as members of society (let alone write a fair review) every single time they write a negative review of a Sonic game (or even whisper something about the series in a negative light).

But when they write a positive review? Then, heaven's be praised, they are the go to source of objectivity and quality writing, and everything they say must be treated as law. Anyone who disagrees must be swiftly dealt with.

And, in particular to you, DistantJ, I'm entertained by how you find some compulsion to so needlessly belittle anyone who disagrees with you about this game. You've seemed to fallen into some funk where you can only see detractors with two viewpoints:

• Do you see a problem with the physics (even if you like the game overall anyways)? Then you are an obsessive freak who needs to get a life; and you are in such a small minority that your group of like-minded individuals can be counted with one hand.
  
• Did you find a professional review that also note the physics foibles? That review doesn't count, because it is poorly written/not fair/obsessive/stupid, and you are stupid/obsessive/immature for even bringing it up as proof even when specifically asked to do so.

I mean, for fuck's sake, you aren't even trying to listen to other people's opinions anymore. You simply stomp in on a discussion, state as fact that everyone who dislikes how the game plays is wrong and heavily talk down to them for even thinking so, and then throw a hissy-fit whenever you are challenged on it and stomp back out of the topic. At least the people who have problems with the physics are willing to explain why they are a problem, and they generally do so without climbing atop a pedestal to talk down to everyone who disagrees.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Tornado

[Blue Blood]

You simply stomp in on a discussion, state as fact that everyone who dislikes how the game plays is wrong, and then throw a hissy-fit whenever you are challenged on it.

Then prepare for a hissy-fit.

J, I do think you're being unfair now. Everyone seems to be understanding each others opinions, and now you need to stop trying to nullify opinions different to your own. It''s childish. Nobody's saying that those who enjoy the game are "dumb and ignorant", and nobody's opinion about the game is any more valid than your own or anyone else's. Tonado's got it right.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Blue Blood

[Spooky Mulder]

People are taking this way too seriously. It's a good game that could and should be better. The level design is mostly good with a few awkward spots along the way. The physics dont work the way they did in the classics and you'll probably find yourself going "huh" a few times at the weird things then get over it. Look at it on it's own and you'll like it, look at it as a sequel to Sonic 3 and you'll hate it. Just my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own without raging at people with whom they disagree.

[Konata Izumi]

I played the game and there was nothing wrong with it in my eyes, apparently I'm one of the few people who don't convince themselves the game is horrible because other people think so. Jesus Christ~

[Sean]

That's it.

About 5 people on this forum find it to be 'broken' and like to imply that if you don't spot these 'game breaking flaws' such as faster aerial deceleration (*gasp!*) then you're dumb, 'in denial' or ignorant and don't understand games, just like the award winning game designer and games design lecturer I just mentioned, and IGN and other successful game review sites, I guess they don't understand games as well as a handful of Sonic obsessives do. You should be able to get your answer about the game's quality from this paragraph. Go ahead, check the game out for yourself, enjoy it, and don't be predisposed by some of the crap that goes on in here.

Get over it. I am sick and tired of seeing this intolerant attitude of yours. People have put up with your posts long enough. And I am not going to stand by this anymore while you harp on about it over and over. Consider this a warning.

You don't like how people are actually vocal about their opinions? Too bad! As a moderator, I demand that you shut up and live with it, rather than waste your breath complaining about this shit. So you know what DistantJ? You can just

Don't believe me? How about you try me. If I see you keep this up, if I see you make one more post like this, if I even so much as see you hint about how detractors are such tasteless morons like you have been doing for all this time, I will strike you. No questions asked.

I have given you many chances. So many fucking chances. But no more. You're intolerant of different opinions. You somehow think that you're taking the higher ground by demeaning those who find this game broken. And worst of all, you make stupid shit up, such as saying that the detractors on this forum are somehow insulting those who actually like this game. Who, may I ask, has actually fucking done this? DistantJ, your attitude is poor, your posts are condescending, and nobody here can stand your holier-than-thou tone. I don't understand why you make no effort to change. You pretend to listen to me when I suggest for you to cut it out, yet you turn around and pull this crap again. Now I'm ordering you to stop this embarrassing childishness at once. Have a lovely day.

[Djawed]

Just like someone else mentioned, i'd feel guilty to convince you to buy the game. It only has 4 zones, feels unpolished and rushed and that all for 15 dollars. If you're a big fan of the classics, another thing that will bother you is how sega/sonicteam/dimps could release such a follow up to one of the biggest reasons that has given sega the status they have today.

So yeah, there you have my answer.

[Emmett L. Brown]

This must be this "Unpleasable Fanbase" I've read so much about. According to internet lore, only the Megaman fanbase has it worse.

It's a funny concept, but a silly one. You just can't please the entire fanbase at a time, but you can please alternate chunks of it no problem. I admire the uncertain shopper who can wade through all the conflicting opinions to find the specific ones he needs to convince him whether to buy or not. Dang if it isn't hard to figure out who has a valid point, who's whining over an insignificant flaw, who's pointing out a genuinely show-stopping programming error, and who approached the product the same way you will.

Kudos to the shopper who makes the correct informed decision. Your opinion-juggling skills are mighty indeed!

[Djawed]

To be honest, I think sonicstadium members are quite easily satisfied compared to other sonic-community websites. I think seeing people unpleased over here says alot more than seeing them unpleased at for example, neogaf and sonicretro(No offense to those websites). If you ask me, that says alot about this game.

Also at random forums you'll see alot of "neutral" people kind of disliking the game. I remember at gametrailers when everyone said I was an idiot for saying that the game would end up playing completely different than it's predecessors. The game came out and the same people that called me an idiot felt they were ripped off.(some even apologised)

There are lots of people that aren't actual fans but still like the sonic franchise. Also Nintendo fans that got to know sonic in the gamecube era and learned about the classics afterwards. Seen lots of dissapointment on that side as well.

In my opinion s4e1 is even an average game in it's own. If s4e1 was the sonic 1 in the mega drive era, sonic would have never been so popular today.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Jaouad

[Shade Vortex]

I honestly would wait until at least Episode 2 before buying this game. It's a pretty good, fun game with problems that you'd have to get used to or ignore, but no game is perfect. But besides that, it's a very short and rather expensive game. It'd be over quickly, and either leave you wanting more content and more originality in aesthetics and enemies, or leave you hating the game altogether and wanting them to drop the whole game idea entirely and pretend it never happened, like what happened with 06.

[DistantJ]

OK, I'm going to try and make this as civil as possible, as I have no intention of being banned or causing offence, and never did.

J, I do think you're being unfair now. Everyone seems to be understanding each others opinions, and now you need to stop trying to nullify opinions different to your own. It''s childish. Nobody's saying that those who enjoy the game are "dumb and ignorant", and nobody's opinion about the game is any more valid than your own or anyone else's. Tonado's got it right.

No intention of belittling you, I'm just being vocal about my opinion the way other people have. Sorry but I've actually avoided this section of the forum for quite a while (I daren't even open the Impressions topic now) because I have just found people talking in quite a condescending way towards the rest of us, I'm just being defensive. I'm not trying to nullify an opinion, rather to maintain that it is, indeed, an opinion, and not a fact. I think it should be "I don't like Sonic 4's physics" and not "Sonic 4's physics are broken" because I think the latter implies that those who do like it are either missing something or aren't smart enough to tell the difference.

I mean is it something SEGA should fix or is it something some of us should get used to? Lots of platform games work in different ways...

Sean, I'm just trying to be vocal about my own opinion is all. Sorry if I've made it sound like I'm trying to belittle yours, I'm just trying to explain WHY I think some of the physics arguments aren't important ones, back when the impressions topic started I felt people were being very condescending to me, many told me I was 'in denial' etc., I'm just expressing what I felt this was. I didn't mean to step out of line in any way. I don't have a problem with people being vocal about their opinions, all I'm trying to do is do the same thing with my own. I'm not trying to be condescending here I'm just trying to give the topic originator something to go off of - that reviews have been positive for the most part and that qualified people I know have given it a positive response. I don't understand what I'm doing to offend people, I'm just trying to be vocal about my opinions the same way others are.

Actually, to try and make my position a little more clear, I'll quote Grumpy Old Guy's post:

It's a funny concept, but a silly one. You just can't please the entire fanbase at a time, but you can please alternate chunks of it no problem. I admire the uncertain shopper who can wade through all the conflicting opinions to find the specific ones he needs to convince him whether to buy or not. Dang if it isn't hard to figure out who has a valid point, who's whining over an insignificant flaw, who's pointing out a genuinely show-stopping programming error, and who approached the product the same way you will.

Kudos to the shopper who makes the correct informed decision. Your opinion-juggling skills are mighty indeed!

It would appear to me like this topic was Turbojet trying to do exactly this - to sift through people's opinions and try and work out if these problems are, as put here 'genuinely show-stopping programming errors' or if they're only things which affect the more, shall we say, pedantic, of fans... OK, I don't know if pedantic is too strong a word, walking on egg shells here, but it's the closest word I can think of. Well, *I* think it's pedantic anyway, that's my opinion. By giving my view on the game, also providing the opinion of IGN, who have been perhaps the most unforgiving towards Sonic games and their glitches (therefore I believe that they would have picked up on it if it was important, you get me?), and of an award winning games designer and a games design lecturer, I felt that it backs up what I have to say more so than it would have if I had just stated my own opinion. I'm not saying my opinion is worth more, I'm just putting in a bit of evidence from 3rd parties whose opinions I think are a little more educated than mine. I gave him something good to go off of, and that the views of a handful of people in here may be pedantries in the eyes of a more casual fan like himself, and it is indeed my own opinion that these we are splitting hairs over the jump inertia thing. Sorry if I worded it too strongly, perhaps it's the way I talk, I dunno.

I've always found it entertaining that Sonic fans (in particular) treat IGN as a horrible terrible site made up of IGNorant assholes who can barely function as members of society (let alone write a fair review) every single time they write a negative review of a Sonic game (or even whisper something about the series in a negative light).

But when they write a positive review? Then, heaven's be praised, they are the go to source of objectivity and quality writing, and everything they say must be treated as law. Anyone who disagrees must be swiftly dealt with.

I guess so, but I was never really one of these people... I always said that IGN shouldn't be the be all and end all dictating whether something's good or not, of course, but I find a critic's view is a good one to go to if you're concerned as to whether a problem is a problem for a game by it's own merits or just a personal thing. As I say, I refer to IGN because my opinion is just an opinion, but I give mine a little more weight by bringing in the view of an opinion more educated on the subject than my own.

And, in particular to you, DistantJ, I'm entertained by how you find some compulsion to so needlessly belittle anyone who disagrees with you about this game.

Entirely unintentional. I felt that a lot of the people who dislike the game are really hammering it home and it's drowning out the people who liked it, I'm just keeping the other side going by being as vocal about my own opinions. I just want it to be clear that those who enjoy it don't have to think "it's a bad game, but I like it", because it felt for a while that people were trying to get us to 'admit' to that, I guess I'm doing the opposite, trying to get people to admit "it's a decent enough game, but I don't like it", or rather to admit that these issues aren't faults so much as personal taste.

Do you see a problem with the physics (even if you like the game overall anyways)? Then you are an obsessive freak who needs to get a life; and you are in such a small minority that your group of like-minded individuals can be counted with one hand.

Hmm... I guess it could have come across that way... I wasn't actually addressing anybody with that one, I was more trying to explain to the topic originator that the complaints are from those who take this issue more seriously than the casual gamer does.

Did you find a professional review that also note the physics foibles? That review doesn't count, because it is poorly written/not fair/obsessive/stupid, and you are stupid/obsessive/immature for even bringing it up as proof even when specifically asked to do so.

Nonono, I mean, like, if the game was as broken as some people claim, then all of the critics, certainly the quite brutal Hilary Goldstein, would have at least mentioned it. I mean, for me, okay, let's say Devil May Cry. I can't get along with the game because of the controls and the jumping. But that's me. I can't get along with the style of jumping they've gone for. I don't feel I need to tell DMC fans their game is broken, just that I can't get along with it. Sonic '06 on the other hand has problems with it's programming and these aren't subjective, and therefore every review picked up on them. Sonic's jumping and physics in S4 are different to the originals but they're still adequate for a platformer, it has a few glitches but no more than your average platform game and the jump inertia is based on the character's deceleration, the speed of deceleration is a design choice in the engine. Games like Mega Man and Castlevania have the same instant deceleration. I'm simply using reviews to give evidence towards the fact that this is a personal gripe rather than an actual problem, and that if the topic originator isn't bothered by them, the game will be enjoyable to him.

I mean, for fuck's sake, you aren't even trying to listen to other people's opinions anymore. You simply stomp in on a discussion, state as fact that everyone who dislikes how the game plays is wrong and heavily talk down to them for even thinking so

Please, that's not what I mean at all. All I've ever been trying to say is that you may not like the physics, but that doesn't mean the physics are completely broken. In saying they are broken etc. I feel that you guys similarly imply that those of us who enjoy it are wrong. I've just been trying to retaliate to that.

and then throw a hissy-fit whenever you are challenged on it and stomp back out of the topic

I leave the topic so as not to get into trouble and take over it with the argument. I feel if I get myself worked up I WILL start to be condescending and rude and that's when it stops being a discussion and starts being a bitch-fest, so I leave the topic before I say something I might regret. That's not me storming off because I can't take an disagreement, it's because I don't want to get angry and start being uncivilised towards you guys and let stuff like this happen.

At least the people who have problems with the physics are willing to explain why they are a problem, and they generally do so without climbing atop a pedestal to talk down to everyone who disagrees.

I guess it does look that way, considering the responses, but all I'm trying to do is explain why I think the complaint is splitting hairs, why I think it's a frustrated comparison to the originals as opposed to a problem with the game by it's own merits. My original 'angry' post in here was just to say, isn't this just a continuation of the same discussion from the 'impressions' topic? The topic originator explained that he wasn't that bothered by physics and he just wanted to know if they were as bad as that video made them look, if they were something which was personal or if it was actually broken, Sonic '06 style, and instead the old disagreement between the two sides from the impressions topic continued in here. I was just sort of trying to say "Aren't we missing the reason why this topic was made? Shouldn't most of these posts be back in the Impressions topic?".

Perhaps it's all clearer now.

I've never had any intention of telling people they can't express their opinions. I'm just trying to put forward the suggestion that these issues are personal, not factual, sure a few things like the ridiculous bit where you fly out of the train and fall down if you don't hold right are flaws, but once you've done that once and learned you need to hold right, you're sorted (takes me back to Metroid Prime 3, when it tells you the location of some energy cells are in your log book, when they're actually in a different section of your inventory, once you've learned they're in there the game continues as normal, a silly little error which no longer matters once you've worked it out). I've never tried to tell you guys you're wrong, just tried to use evidence to back up my assertion that this is a personal thing, not an objective problem with the game.

[Sean]

There's just one thing I have to add:

I think it should be "I don't like Sonic 4's physics" and not "Sonic 4's physics are broken" because I think the latter implies that those who do like it are either missing something or aren't smart enough to tell the difference.

I see people call for such change of vocabulary time and time again, and every time I see it, it bothers me like hell. So I'm going to get this out in the open:

All statements are opinions unless stated otherwise. I don't know what else to say. How is it that people can get away with saying things like "S3&K is an amazing game!" without repercussion, whereas when people say "Sonic 4 is broken," they are suddenly required to add statements like "in my opinion" like a tacky-looking post-it note? Phrases such as "I think" and "in my opinion" are redundant. Don't ask people of this unless you're willing to do the same to proponents of a side. It borders on hypocritical double-standards.

I'm not banging on people who actually use these phrases, but rather on people who demand such usage. Many people here are smart enough to be able to decipher between facts and opinions, especially when there are those who are fine with or don't mind Sonic 4's physics. They don't need training wheels to guide them.

[speedfreak]

People are free to like or dislike whatever they want, but how can anyone honestly say the physics are good when NO MOMENTUM carries over? You can say it works for Megaman or Castlevania all you want, but the physics were never as important to those games as they are to Sonic. Sonic's physics are a crucial part of what made Sonic unique.

Edited November 1, 2010 by speedfreak