A Sonic-Themed FPS?

[BaronSFel001]

Third-person, sure, which is exactly what Shadow the Hedgehog is. But can you seriously imagine that sort of high speed platforming and shooting action in first-person? For those of us who are susceptible (which I am not), it would be a total motion sickness disaster, not to mention that platforming in first-person is downright frustrating. Worst idea I have heard in a while, no offense.

[Badnik Zero]

I'm more of a 3rd person guy when it comes to a game like Sonic. Or maybe first person with some over-the-shoulder mechanics for aiming.

Eggman in an Eggmobile would be perfect for this. You could have a cockpit HUD with a windshield and all that fancy stuff and navigate around levels with radars and rockets, tow cables, or wrecking balls. I guess it'd be more like a Descent kind of shooter, but I'd like the view to change for harder to use weapons like the wrecking ball. Blacklightning made the point already that an FPS doesn't need to be traditionally gun-based. In fact my favorites out of the genre use unconventional weapons like force powers or melee clubs and arrows. If you think about Portal too, they used the weapons to turn the genre into a type of puzzle game.

It'd be pretty cool if you could choose which Egg-tachment (I need points for thinking that one up) you want to bring on the mission, so like the Knuckles areas of S3&K you could only get the underground area of a certain level with the Sonic 2 drill boss attachment. I dunno, I'd like to see this happen with Eggman.

Eggman's also the perfect protagonist for a Descent type shooter. Unlike other villains, Eggman loves to get his hands dirty in the details. It could be a search and destroy or mission-based game, like locate the entrance to the pyramid and establish a base. Or can you imagine his SA2 raid on GUN with and Descent style controls? Think of how he flies down the tunnels of his own ships in the Unleashed opening. Or a boss battle with Sonic from his cockpit perspective? Craziness.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Dabnikz

[Rusty Spy]

One last thing too - just because it's labelled an FPS doesn't necessarily mean the game is going to be firearm-based. It's a generalization of the playstyle in general, and a lot of people here seem to be under some kind of misconception that FPSs are obligated to use guns by default. It could simply mean an FPS method of control. Say for example, you could use FPS/TPS controls to loosely aim Homing Attacks as opposed to the game deciding your target automatically depending on your direction of facing, or it could even be just using FPS methods of camera control (which for the record, are massively better than anything a 3D Sonic game has ever used, period). So really, discussion here ought to be centered around ways the franchise could use the FPS playstyle in general, rather than who's better with guns. Believe it or not, guns and FPSs aren't mutually exclusive, despite the name of the genre.

Similar to what you said, it'd be nearly impossible to have Sonic's normal third person controls with FPS controls without one drawing heavily from another.

Even if you could make it work, passing it off as a serious, main stream Sonic makes me want to mimic Crash's above post.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Black Spy

[Blacklightning]

Similar to what you said, it'd be nearly impossible to have Sonic's normal third person controls with FPS controls without one drawing heavily from another.

You'd be surprised. It actually makes control more responsive than the traditional platformer setup because the camera's constantly facing forward. A lot of the difficulties with the current games is that it's difficult to tell exactly (and I mean exactly) which direction you're facing and the distance to your next platform jump, much moreso than it ought to be. This isn't as much of a problem in other platformers, but only because they're slow - a Sonic game needs any bearing assistance it can get, and traditional platformer setup just doesn't cut it.

Actions speak louder than words though, so I might as well leave this here.

About the bit you quoted though, I was mostly implying that an FPS needn't be about guns to be, well, an FPS, just that you be able to attack in first-person nature. Like say, the plasmids in Bioshock, or the brawling in the Riddick games, or hell, even the magic missles in Catacomb Abyss (which, mind you, is even older than Wolfenstein). There are plenty of ways you could make a Sonic FPS without even using a single firearm - make Sonic's HA aimable, let Shadow use his Chaos techniques, give Espio some shuriken, hell, even fucking Cream and Cheese could make a good duo with firstperson aiming. It's funny too, that people think FPSs automatically have to be gun-based yet they wonder why the genre has gotten so repetitive, and I think this just puts it into perspective.

[Rusty Spy]

You'd be surprised. It actually makes control more responsive than the traditional platformer setup because the camera's constantly facing forward. A lot of the difficulties with the current games is that it's difficult to tell exactly (and I mean exactly) which direction you're facing and the distance to your next platform jump, much moreso than it ought to be. This isn't as much of a problem in other platformers, but only because they're slow - a Sonic game needs any bearing assistance it can get, and traditional platformer setup just doesn't cut it.

But in the long term it's perfectly possible to make it work without needing FPS control setups. It can work, sure, but it's still perfectly possible for it to work to the same effect with conventional means.

[Blacklightning]

But in the long term it's perfectly possible to make it work without needing FPS control setups. It can work, sure, but it's still perfectly possible for it to work to the same effect with conventional means.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's impossible to make 3D Sonic work using traditional platformer mechanics. I'm just saying that FPS controls and such actually work fairly well with Sonic mechanics, moreso than a lot of people really give it credit for. Of course, how to make Sonic work without FPS controls is a topic for another thread, hmm? I'm just trying to stay on topic here.

[Rusty Spy]

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's impossible to make 3D Sonic work using traditional platformer mechanics. I'm just saying that FPS controls and such actually work fairly well with Sonic mechanics, moreso than a lot of people really give it credit for. Of course, how to make Sonic work without FPS controls is a topic for another thread, hmm? I'm just trying to stay on topic here.

True then.

Though the main OP was asking about a basic, gun tootin' shooter based on Sonic.

[Indigo Rush]

Umm...

Why are Sonic's eyes green? Clearly, Smash Bros Brawl is the worst Sonic game ever.

Also, Tails FPS pl0x.

[Jix Hedgehog]

There was a Sonic skin for Doom or Wolfenstein or something, guess that's as close as we'll get

[Phos]

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's impossible to make 3D Sonic work using traditional platformer mechanics. I'm just saying that FPS controls and such actually work fairly well with Sonic mechanics, moreso than a lot of people really give it credit for. Of course, how to make Sonic work without FPS controls is a topic for another thread, hmm? I'm just trying to stay on topic here.

I actually find that method of control be be really annoying, I don't want to be worried about running out of pad, it misses out on te smoothness offered by analog stick movement, but the worst problem with the keyboard and mouse controls is not having any face buttons for jumping. It doesn't take long for space or mouse jumping to get old.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Why not make a Sonic game that plays like Mirror's edge? You could still have the speedy platforming and the first-person perspective, but you could remove(Or at least downplay) the firearms.

[Sega DogTagz]

I cant believe I never thought of this…..

Blaze fixes everything.

Still, the idea of going downhill 200 mph on a slippery slope with a machine gun is starting to sound more fun each time I think of it. Lets give Omega a snowboard, open up that cannon in his chest and let him go nuts. I can already imagine escaping from avalanches and nuke-ing the hillside….

Edited July 3, 2010 by Sega DogTagz

[Rusty Spy]

Why not make a Sonic game that plays like Mirror's edge? You could still have the speedy platforming and the first-person perspective, but you could remove(Or at least downplay) the firearms.

Take any gameplay footage of that game, speed it up to 200x and add copious amounts of spinning and you've got a pretty accurate example of how fun THAT game would be.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Black Spy

[Diogenes]

spinning

Ah, now there's why any first person Sonic game is doomed to fail. Either you remove Sonic's trademark spinning, or create a fast track to motion sickness.

[Saint Nathan]

A Tails/Eggman FPS? Fuck no that's scrap pile ideas.

A Tails third-person that plays like a 3D Tails Adventure? That would work.

no guns, just bombs and a sea fox.

Or an Eggman third-person that plays like everything his SA2 gameplay could have been. Also no hud, just a display on his windshield giving HP and ammo and shit.

[Blacklightning]

I actually find that method of control be be really annoying, I don't want to be worried about running out of pad, it misses out on te smoothness offered by analog stick movement, but the worst problem with the keyboard and mouse controls is not having any face buttons for jumping. It doesn't take long for space or mouse jumping to get old.

Who said I was talking about keyboard/mouse controls? There are FPSs on pads and Wiimotes too, you know.

Ah, now there's why any first person Sonic game is doomed to fail. Either you remove Sonic's trademark spinning, or create a fast track to motion sickness.

Not really. You could just remove the view spinning and everything would work just fine. I mean, I don't know a hell of a lot of games that do perform such rapid moves with 100% POV changes - off the top of my head I can recall you could perform a spinning roundhouse kick in the original F.E.A.R which kept your view facing forward even though the attack physically doesn't allow for that, but it was for good fucking reason, because taking your focus away for that long was more than enough to miss the target completely in most circumstances. Same thing applies here - applying POV changes to the spindash, in addition to aformentioned motion sickness would be absolutely senseless because you'd have no way of seeing where you are going, and I have no idea why people think they'd be obligated to put such a crippling viewpoint in where they could easily just leave it static ala SRB2.

[Core]

But if you're in first-person view, and the view is not spinning when Sonic is spinning, then how can the player know whether Sonic is spinning?

[Fairfieldfencer]

But if you're in first-person view, and the view is not spinning when Sonic is spinning, then how can the player know whether Sonic is spinning?

It could switch to third person like riding in a vehicle.

[Blacklightning]

But if you're in first-person view, and the view is not spinning when Sonic is spinning, then how can the player know whether Sonic is spinning?

There are so many ways to go about this, I couldn't possibly count them off the top of my head.

- Sound effects. Hell, it's strange enough that rolling is completely silent save for the initial triggering, especially considering they've given Sonic footstep sounds lately.

- "Doomface" screen-in-screen view. I say Doomface because of the way Doom handled a similar concept - it provided visual aids to damage taken in the form of Doomguy's face with various amounts of bleeding, which ultimately is more obvious than a number when you need to know your condition on a glance. Since a Sonic game is more likely to use a model, you have a hell of a lot more freedom to go about it. Just sync Sonic's movements to a model in the HUD that mimics them and you'll have a visual aid that shows exactly what how Sonic is posed at any given time, despite the first person perspective and lack of viewpoint alteration.

- Turn the screen blue while rolling. Derp.

- Make the screen shake. Derpy derp.

- Motion blur. Derpa derpy derpa derp.

- As Fairfield mentioned, temporary third person perspective can work too, if the action is really that fucking important to acknowledge.

Showing actions that can't be displayed onscreen isn't actually all that hard, it just requires you to be subtle and creative about it.

[back2s0ul]

I wouldn't want to play it because I don't like that type of game, but if Yoshi Safari can exist then I suppose a Sonic shooter could too. It might be interesting to play as Eggman and pull from an arsenal of ridiculous-looking firearms and go around blasting cute fuzzy animals

Or Flicky Duck Hunt.

That's more of a minigame.

[Viviroking]

Short answer: NO!

Mostly because I don't do 1st person shooters. Perhaps a 1st person view Sonic game could work, but I probably wouldn't play it.

[Phos]

Who said I was talking about keyboard/mouse controls? There are FPSs on pads and Wiimotes too, you know.

Not really. You could just remove the view spinning and everything would work just fine. I mean, I don't know a hell of a lot of games that do perform such rapid moves with 100% POV changes - off the top of my head I can recall you could perform a spinning roundhouse kick in the original F.E.A.R which kept your view facing forward even though the attack physically doesn't allow for that, but it was for good fucking reason, because taking your focus away for that long was more than enough to miss the target completely in most circumstances. Same thing applies here - applying POV changes to the spindash, in addition to aformentioned motion sickness would be absolutely senseless because you'd have no way of seeing where you are going, and I have no idea why people think they'd be obligated to put such a crippling viewpoint in where they could easily just leave it static ala SRB2.

Putting it on a pad or wiimote takes away most of the point to using this method, they don't have the ability to quickly and accurately turn the camera, and it still leaves you without a face button.

Unless you're suggesting first person platforming, which Mirrors Edge showed us was an uphill battle, not to mention that setting up the camera like that severely limits its field of view.

There are so many ways to go about this, I couldn't possibly count them off the top of my head.

- Sound effects. Hell, it's strange enough that rolling is completely silent save for the initial triggering, especially considering they've given Sonic footstep sounds lately.

- "Doomface" screen-in-screen view. I say Doomface because of the way Doom handled a similar concept - it provided visual aids to damage taken in the form of Doomguy's face with various amounts of bleeding, which ultimately is more obvious than a number when you need to know your condition on a glance. Since a Sonic game is more likely to use a model, you have a hell of a lot more freedom to go about it. Just sync Sonic's movements to a model in the HUD that mimics them and you'll have a visual aid that shows exactly what how Sonic is posed at any given time, despite the first person perspective and lack of viewpoint alteration.

- Turn the screen blue while rolling. Derp.

- Make the screen shake. Derpy derp.

- Motion blur. Derpa derpy derpa derp.

- As Fairfield mentioned, temporary third person perspective can work too, if the action is really that fucking important to acknowledge.

Showing actions that can't be displayed onscreen isn't actually all that hard, it just requires you to be subtle and creative about it.

None of these are as natural as simply seeing your character spinning.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Phos

[Blacklightning]

Putting it on a pad or wiimote takes away most of the point to using this method, they don't have the ability to quickly and accurately turn the camera,

It still offers more precision than traditional platformer camera though, in that you univerally have a forward alignment and the longest camera view of your jump no matter which way you're facing. Even the best platformer cameras still have you facing offscreen from time to time, and it goes without saying that platforming onto unseen objects is, well, suicidal.

and it still leaves you without a face button.

Not a problem if button layouts are handled responsibly. There's a good reason Mirror's Edge moved jumping and crouching to the triggers and bumpers. As far as Wiimote controls are concerned this isn't an issue to begin with, because relevant buttons are already within reach anyway.

Unless you're suggesting first person platforming, which Mirrors Edge showed us was an uphill battle, not to mention that setting up the camera like that severely limits its field of view.

Perhaps so, but not to the degree of unfixability. A minimap or external camera view fixes a lot of the viewpoint issues by itself, and I'm sure it would be less of a problem in the first place if level design was a bit less cuntworthy. Most of ME's problems lied in overuse of narrow platforms and trial-and-error pathfinding, made even worse by the fact most missions were chase scenes of some description.

None of these are as natural as simply seeing your character spinning.

Not that I claimed as such, but considering you're saying this in spite of two of those solutions including seeing your character spinning this statement comes off as hilariously ironic.

[Phos]

Not a problem if button layouts are handled responsibly. There's a good reason Mirror's Edge moved jumping and crouching to the triggers and bumpers.

But that's the thing, triggers and bumpers aren't face buttons. An actual face button is still preferable. This much worked all right in Mirror's Edge, but it's not ideal for a traditional platformer, jumping that much with your index finger is tiring.

Not that I claimed as such, but considering you're saying this in spite of two of those solutions including seeing your character spinning this statement comes off as hilariously ironic.

A blue overlay or some random motion blur aren't seeing your character spinning, seeing your character spinning is seeing your character spinning. Your solutions all require the extra mental step of gleaning that your character is spinning based on some visual effect.

Then there's the mater of new platers. I know you've spent enough time playing video games, but just about everyone has a learning curve they have to deal with when it comes to FPS/TPS controls.

[Blacklightning]

But that's the thing, triggers and bumpers aren't face buttons. An actual face button is still preferable. This much worked all right in Mirror's Edge, but it's not ideal for a traditional platformer, jumping that much with your index finger is tiring.

The point still stands, I was only using Mirror's Edge as an example for buttons that are always in reach. Even with face buttons though, alternating between aiming and jumping isn't exactly difficult, and already comes naturally to most players anyway, especially anyone who's played an FPS already.

A blue overlay or some random motion blur aren't seeing your character spinning

No, but seeing your character spinning via 3rd person perspective switch and seeing your character spinning via screen-in-screen is seeing your character spinning. To be honest I'm not even sure you read that part correctly.

Your solutions all require the extra mental step of gleaning that your character is spinning based on some visual effect.

It's literally no less focus than is required to interpret player model animations, so I don't know what you're getting at here.

Then there's the mater of new platers.

I'm going to assume that's a typo.

I know you've spent enough time playing video games, but just about everyone has a learning curve they have to deal with when it comes to FPS/TPS controls.

This is a thing with gaming in general and not just the genre. Any sane developer would have the sense to properly introduce elements as necessary, just as they would have the sense to tell the player how to roll or Homing Attack. Nothing really changes here.