Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?

[Rabbitearsblog]

On 1/1/2021 at 5:33 PM, Scritch the Cat said:

I think to play it safe, striking a balance between listening to people and keeping things manageable, SEGA could conduct surveys.  These could have things like “Name three favorite Sonic games“, and then go on with more branching based on what they choose, with “What three things do you like most about Sonic Adventure 2?”

I agree that SEGA should conduct surveys to the fans to see what they need to add to the games or what the fans enjoyed about the franchise.  It might help SEGA have better connections to the fans, rather than looking at all of these different ideas and not being sure which idea to use for the games.

[Eurisko]

On 1/3/2021 at 12:37 AM, Rabbitearsblog said:

I agree that SEGA should conduct surveys to the fans to see what they need to add to the games or what the fans enjoyed about the franchise.  It might help SEGA have better connections to the fans, rather than looking at all of these different ideas and not being sure which idea to use for the games.

I agree.  Capcom do this on a semi- regular basis.

[Rabbitearsblog]

On 1/6/2021 at 12:38 PM, Eurisko said:

I agree.  Capcom do this on a semi- regular basis.

And SEGA don't have to do a survey every month or so.  They just need to do it when the franchise hits a low point and they can conduct surveys to see what the fans want out of the franchise next.  They should also conduct surveys on how to fix the franchise since the franchise is pretty broken up regarding its backstories and what not.

[NintendoSoul]

They don't HAVE to, since fans don't always know what's best for a franchise, but Sonic Mania's success should make them more willing to lend an ear from time to time.

[Rabbitearsblog]

2 hours ago, NintendoSoul said:

They don't HAVE to, since fans don't always know what's best for a franchise, but Sonic Mania's success should make them more willing to lend an ear from time to time.

Especially since Sonic Mania was developed by a Sonic fan.  I still think that SEGA should try to do surveys from time to time to see what the fans really want from the franchise.

[Scar]

The problem is that there are too many different and conflicting opinions amongst the fans around Sonic.

This primarily stemming from the plethora of gameplay and story styles between the games, anime, comics, cartoons etc. Listening to all of these people would lead to some ridiculous mess that would end up pleasing nobody.

What they need is a director with a clear creative vision for what the franchise should be doing, a bunch of competent developers behind that creative director/game designer and the time needed to see it to completion without having to meet meaningless deadlines. If some fans are disappointed by that direction, fuck them. The point is that the games should be good. Not good even, they really should be great. Greatness doesn't stem for focus tested, survey defined, generic garbage. 

If the game is good, if the story is good, people will like it. And if they're unwilling to accept a good game because it differs from what they were expecting, or deviates from the minute details in terms of story or whatever, then fuck 'em. Aiming to please every single branch of this broken and fractured fanbase is a hopeless endeavour. 

Once again, make a great game. A game comparable to any given Mario game, and people beyond our fickle fanbase will come pouring in to enjoy it.

[Rabbitearsblog]

4 hours ago, Scar said:

The problem is that there are too many different and conflicting opinions amongst the fans around Sonic.

This primarily stemming from the plethora of gameplay and story styles between the games, anime, comics, cartoons etc. Listening to all of these people would lead to some ridiculous mess that would end up pleasing nobody.

What they need is a director with a clear creative vision for what the franchise should be doing, a bunch of competent developers behind that creative director/game designer and the time needed to see it to completion without having to meet meaningless deadlines. If some fans are disappointed by that direction, fuck them. The point is that the games should be good. Not good even, they really should be great. Greatness doesn't stem for focus tested, survey defined, generic garbage. 

If the game is good, if the story is good, people will like it. And if they're unwilling to accept a good game because it differs from what they were expecting, or deviates from the minute details in terms of story or whatever, then fuck 'em. Aiming to please every single branch of this broken and fractured fanbase is a hopeless endeavour. 

Once again, make a great game. A game comparable to any given Mario game, and people beyond our fickle fanbase will come pouring in to enjoy it.

I actually agree with you that the franchise just needs to have good games and good stories to get by.  SEGA's problem is that they are not taking the time to actually develop these games and they are just pushing them out without really checking over to see if the gameplay is in top shape and if the story is written well.  If SEGA stop making these deadlines and start going through what ideas they have on the table and try to sort them out, the games would be okay at this point.

[Scritch the Cat]

9 hours ago, Scar said:

The problem is that there are too many different and conflicting opinions amongst the fans around Sonic.

This primarily stemming from the plethora of gameplay and story styles between the games, anime, comics, cartoons etc. Listening to all of these people would lead to some ridiculous mess that would end up pleasing nobody.

What they need is a director with a clear creative vision for what the franchise should be doing, a bunch of competent developers behind that creative director/game designer and the time needed to see it to completion without having to meet meaningless deadlines. If some fans are disappointed by that direction, fuck them. The point is that the games should be good. Not good even, they really should be great. Greatness doesn't stem for focus tested, survey defined, generic garbage. 

If the game is good, if the story is good, people will like it. And if they're unwilling to accept a good game because it differs from what they were expecting, or deviates from the minute details in terms of story or whatever, then fuck 'em. Aiming to please every single branch of this broken and fractured fanbase is a hopeless endeavour. 

Once again, make a great game. A game comparable to any given Mario game, and people beyond our fickle fanbase will come pouring in to enjoy it.

Now hold on just a moment partner; as a potential recipient of at least a few of those fucks, I feel obliged to protest.

You are correct about one thing: A lot of people will be able to enjoy a game even if it goes against their personal preferences for what a Sonic game should be, provided it is done well.  However, the notion that high quality absolutely outweighs loyalty to fans is not one I feel should be encouraged, as it's a slippery slope to the ideology of that villain in Robots: "Why be you, if you can be new?"  I maintain that Sonic should be Sonic.  A developer whose idea of improving Sonic is making it into something that's barely recognizable as such, is not what I want, even if the game is good.  No; especially if the game is good.  The last two games that both innovated and were well-received, Sonic Rush and Sonic Colors, brought the boost and the Wisps, respectively, and now those have stuck around.  Good games can be made utilizing them; it has been done, but they came at the expense of things Sonic was before.  Boost prevents Sonic games from being about working to accelerate the character, and while the Wisps don't necessarily make playing as other characters obsolete, they were intended to and they're still here and other characters being playable still isn't.

Yes; simultaneously giving all segments of this fandom exactly what they want is not possible, and to be fair, you did only say that it was acceptable to go against some factions; not all of them.  However, what's missing from your statement is any consideration that some segments are more worth catering to than others.  For me to suggest this might sound very arrogant; instantly making people suspect that the very next thing I'll do is tout my own opinions as the most important.  However, I'm very capable of looking to other factors, such as how overall well-received an approach to Sonic games was.  It would be excessive for me to keep beating the drums about learning to exploit the terrain to build up speed and playing as other characters than just Sonic if these were just random ideas coveted by certain random people, but they're not; they're features Sonic games actually had when they were at their most popular, as well as with the most well-reviewed Sonic game in over a decade.  By contrast, I also am fond of having enemies with HP and more involved combat in Sonic games, but this, I am totally willing to admit, is a niche opinion, at odds with what the series was originally intended to be.  I don't hate Big the Cat, but I'm not pretending that other people don't and I'd never accuse people of not being Sonic fans if they do.

There's wiggle room in what a Sonic game can be, but it doesn't hurt to consider where it actually is, and going against what fans want is not something that should be habitual.  In fact, the only justifiable excuse for going against what some fans want is that doing so is needed in order to please other fans, and the moral of that is not that fan desires should be ruled out on principle, but again, that they should call upon objective, external factors to weigh segments of the fandom against each other and determine which of them will hurt them least to defy.

On that note, I am not convinced any consequentially large segment of the fandom ever hated playing as Tails and Knuckles.

[Scar]

On 1/10/2021 at 9:01 AM, Scritch the Cat said:

Now hold on just a moment partner; as a potential recipient of at least a few of those fucks, I feel obliged to protest.

You are correct about one thing: A lot of people will be able to enjoy a game even if it goes against their personal preferences for what a Sonic game should be, provided it is done well.  However, the notion that high quality absolutely outweighs loyalty to fans is not one I feel should be encouraged, as it's a slippery slope to the ideology of that villain in Robots: "Why be you, if you can be new?"  I maintain that Sonic should be Sonic.  A developer whose idea of improving Sonic is making it into something that's barely recognizable as such, is not what I want, even if the game is good.  No; especially if the game is good.  The last two games that both innovated and were well-received, Sonic Rush and Sonic Colors, brought the boost and the Wisps, respectively, and now those have stuck around.  Good games can be made utilizing them; it has been done, but they came at the expense of things Sonic was before.  Boost prevents Sonic games from being about working to accelerate the character, and while the Wisps don't necessarily make playing as other characters obsolete, they were intended to and they're still here and other characters being playable still isn't.

Yes; simultaneously giving all segments of this fandom exactly what they want is not possible, and to be fair, you did only say that it was acceptable to go against some factions; not all of them.  However, what's missing from your statement is any consideration that some segments are more worth catering to than others.  For me to suggest this might sound very arrogant; instantly making people suspect that the very next thing I'll do is tout my own opinions as the most important.  However, I'm very capable of looking to other factors, such as how overall well-received an approach to Sonic games was.  It would be excessive for me to keep beating the drums about learning to exploit the terrain to build up speed and playing as other characters than just Sonic if these were just random ideas coveted by certain random people, but they're not; they're features Sonic games actually had when they were at their most popular, as well as with the most well-reviewed Sonic game in over a decade.  By contrast, I also am fond of having enemies with HP and more involved combat in Sonic games, but this, I am totally willing to admit, is a niche opinion, at odds with what the series was originally intended to be.  I don't hate Big the Cat, but I'm not pretending that other people don't and I'd never accuse people of not being Sonic fans if they do.

There's wiggle room in what a Sonic game can be, but it doesn't hurt to consider where it actually is, and going against what fans want is not something that should be habitual.  In fact, the only justifiable excuse for going against what some fans want is that doing so is needed in order to please other fans, and the moral of that is not that fan desires should be ruled out on principle, but again, that they should call upon objective, external factors to weigh segments of the fandom against each other and determine which of them will hurt them least to defy.

On that note, I am not convinced any consequentially large segment of the fandom ever hated playing as Tails and Knuckles.

Your point about the boost mechanic is a reasonable one. Not all visions are good ones. One can lead to something good, but not great. But you need a visionary/creative director/game designer who is cognizant of what ideas are good enough for a "quick fix" and which ideas have a better long-term tragectory. There needs to be enough room to experiment with different models before committing to something and going with it to make sure you have that game out by Christmas. Less of that.

There is a second half to why I say fuck the fans. Because I genuinely believe, even well intentioned fans like yourself, don't hold the answers. I'm a classic enthusiast as much as the next guy. I've written diatribe after diatribe about how the classic model in 3D is the best direction to go, but I don't have the answers. 

What holds the answers are the games themselves. For better or for worse, the best thing to happen over the last 30 years (lol) of Sonic the Hedgehog is the massive variety of games and massive variance of quality between them. You can just look at the good and bad in all of the games released over the last 30 years and use that as a guideline to help build the future. Everyone loves the classics and Mania, why? Go play those games and figure out what's good about them. Everyone hates 06, play that game and figure out why.

You don't need to listen to the fans, because when you play the good games and when you play the bad games, and the average games and everything in between, things should become pretty clear.

The boost formula isn't good enough? Well yes, after playing 3 or 4 of those games you'll probably be able to understand the limitations of that model. I don't even think you need to play Lost World to understand why that approach is ultimately hopeless. You can play all the adventure styled games and see where things went wrong, from what seemed like a promising start. You can play the classics to find out what the identity of the franchise actually is, and what made those games great. Does that work in 3D? Can it work in 3D? What's the best compromise? How should the level design look? Etc. An actually good game designer with experience, creativity and vision will be able to take from that and hopefully make something good, if that person is allowed to the time and care to do it.

That's what I think at least. Perhaps that's too idealistic of me. 

[Sonicstitch]

There are some good points here.

As far as Boost VS Momentum and the Spin Dash

there have been times win playing a Boost game I wished I could Spin Dash.

And times playing a Momentum /Spin Dash game I really wanted the Boost.

And this is my compromising idea.

In sonic generations there is the Boost/Spin Dash button.

I am going to call it the Boost button for now.

If sonic is standing still and you push the Boost button sonic will Spin Dash.

If sonic is moving and you push the Boost button sonic will accelerate.

If sonic gets enough Momentum and you push the Boost button sonic will do the Boost games Boost.

 

 

 

[Wraith]

I would prefer a more traditional Sonic game over the boost style but I wouldn't really care if they kept making Boost games as long as they made attempts to add depth instead of stripping it away with each new installment. A racing/platformer hybrid is a cool idea and meter management is where half the fun in games like Burnout comes from. Successfully chaining actions together and using optional risky/stylish stuff like tricks to feed the meter and keep your boost going sounds good to me on paper. Maybe it wouldn't make for the best ~traditional platformer~ but genre conventions are ultimately just suggestions and you should be willing to break them if something that will suit your game more comes to mind. 

Instead they leaned more on traditional platforming elements as time went on. Not even really "sonicy" platforming elements. Rigid, by the numbers level design and a power up concept ripped straight from Super Mario Galaxy. This stuff doesn't really gel with the idea behind the boost even in it's most polished iteration and kind of cuts into the game's sense of flow. Some of the Wisp sections in Colors are fun to crack but they kind of remind me of the gimmicks in other Sonic games where I would have rather they focus on fleshing out one idea instead. The classics barely break away from the pinball/platformer concept and they're much better games for it. A similarly laser focused boost game has the same amount of potential.