Sonic 4 interview in latest Nintendo Power

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Woah, we've made CVG -

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=238033

When asked by Game Informer if Tails and Knuckles will be appearing in Sonic The Hedgehog 4, Iizuka is reported to have replied, "fans will be very pleased with the cast in Episode 2."

...Is it just me, or does that sound less like a promise of Tails / Knuckles and instead more like a sly "Yes, the fanbase is going to be happy because we're giving them exactly what they wanted amidst their BAWWWWWW - playable Sonic ONLY."?

[SuperLink]

..Is it just me, or does that sound less like a promise of Tails / Knuckles and instead more like a sly "Yes, the fanbase is going to be happy because we're giving them exactly what they wanted amidst their BAWWWWWW - playable Sonic ONLY."?

Hahahah, it wouldn't surprise me in the least unfortunately.

On a more positive note, arg you guiyse, I think Bat Guy is right. If Sonic 4 is going to end up being like S3&K with alternate path heaven (and I bloody hope it will be) then homing attack will allow Sonic to get to places that Tails and Knuckles can't! You guys will say "But where's the skill Lyra? Where's the skill in mashing the A button to find an alt route!" Well I say to you, where's the skill in running into rocky walls with Knuckles to break then down? Where's the skill in mashing A to fly? Well timed homing attacks to get to lovely secrets may be even harder than those...

And that's not all, since when do all Badniks in Sonic 4 have to be useless "walking obstacles" like in the Rush games? We may have the usual "satellite type" enemies to homing attack on, but how can you use homing attacks recklessly on enemies covered in spikes? Yes the homing attacks will make things easier, but you have to remember that most badniks since S&K have been pussies. Bring back the mean nasty badniks, and the difficulty will shine through the homing attack.

[Candescence]

Allow me to throw this out here:

That waterfall is the only thing in this game that, visually, doesn't look like complete ass. That is all.

Also, I stand by my claim that the homing attack is broken as hell, and inherently broken as well. You either keep it as it is, which is basically handing you the Crissaegrim right off the bat, or you nerf it to the point where it's so useless you might as well get rid of it, like the Rushes. You can't solve the problem without getting rid of it.

On a more positive note, arg you guiyse, I think Bat Guy is right. If Sonic 4 is going to end up being like S3&K with alternate path heaven (and I bloody hope it will be) then homing attack will allow Sonic to get to places that Tails and Knuckles can't!

There are other ways to give Sonic his own routes without compromising the difficulty. Just saying.

You guys will say "But where's the skill Lyra? Where's the skill in mashing the A button to find an alt route!" Well I say to you, where's the skill in running into rocky walls with Knuckles to break then down? Where's the skill in mashing A to fly? Well timed homing attacks to get to lovely secrets may be even harder than those...

Or maybe you could bounce of enemies WITHOUT the homing attack, which is actually challenging. Food for thought.

And that's not all, since when do all Badniks in Sonic 4 have to be useless "walking obstacles" like in the Rush games? We may have the usual "satellite type" enemies to homing attack on, but how can you use homing attacks recklessly on enemies covered in spikes? Yes the homing attacks will make things easier, but you have to remember that most badniks since S&K have been pussies. Bring back the mean nasty badniks, and the difficulty will shine through the homing attack.

What about bosses? It'll just slaughter them. I'm not even sure they'll even bother bringing back the nasty ones, considering who the devs are...

Edited March 8, 2010 by Masaru Daimon

[SuperLink]

There are other ways to give Sonic his own routes without compromising the difficulty. Just saying.

Examples? Before you say running over water, you can't just chuck water into every other stage.

Or maybe you could bounce of enemies WITHOUT the homing attack, which is actually challenging. Food for thought.

Hey, noone's stopping you from not using the homing attack, I mean who used it in Rush and Advance? Pretty much noone.

What about bosses? It'll just slaughter them. I'm not even sure they'll even bother bringing back the nasty ones, considering who the devs are...

Not really, it was pretty useless against bosses in Rush and Advance.

[Candescence]

Examples? Before you say running over water, you can't just chuck water into every other stage.

I know in the Classic games Sonic isn't faster than his friends, but maybe they could up his top speed a tad to give him a slight edge to get past certain obstacles, eg. a motion-detector activated crusher that comes down as the player goes under it, and only Sonic is fast enough to get past.

Or, maybe, the Super Peel-Out? As a move, it could do stuff the spin-dash cannot. Chuck a player into a spot where there is a slope up to another path, that neither Tails can fly up to nor Knuckles can climb up, and there's no room to get a run-up to build up speed. And if you spin-dash, you'll break the lower part of the slope and end up going down another path. If Sonic uses the Peel-Out, he can get up that slope. Replace the slope with water as well, for example.

Actually, yeah, bringing back the Super Peel-Out is a great idea. Why the hell haven't they done that?

Hey, noone's stopping you from not using the homing attack, I mean who used it in Rush and Advance? Pretty much noone.

Because, in those games, it was virtually useless except for speed-running. They nerfed the hell out of. I didn't even know it was there until someone else told me.

Not really, it was pretty useless against bosses in Rush and Advance.

Because, as I said, it was virtually useless in general in those games, since they nerfed the hell out of it.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Masaru Daimon

[SuperLink]

Actually, yeah, bringing back the Super Peel-Out is a great idea. Why the hell haven't they done that?

Good point, they really should. It's not much use for cheating top speed anyway, because if this is anything like the classic games then platforming and obstacle dodging and enemy killing will actually be necessary.

Because, in those games, it was virtually useless except for speed-running. I didn't even know it was there until someone else told me.

Because, as I said, it was virtually useless in general in those games.

Who's to say it won't be mostly useless in these too? There were a few HA only paths in Advance/Rush, but generally the HA isn't very necessary for 2D games, and could easily be seen as "useless" in them, especially if they get the rest of the physics right, people may not even want to use the HA.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Lyra

[Candescence]

Good point, they really should. It's not much use for cheating top speed anyway, because if this is anything like the classic games then platforming and obstacle dodging and enemy killing will actually be necessary.

Exactly. Not cheap, fun to use, and it's a classic move. I can't fathom why they would pick a re-buffed HA over the Peel-Out for Sonic 4.

Who's to say it won't be mostly useless in these too? There were a few HA only paths in Advance/Rush, but generally the HA isn't very necessary for 2D games, and could easily be seen as "useless" in them, especially if they get the rest of the physics right, people may not even want to use the HA.

Because Iizuka makes it damn well clear that there's gonna be plenty of HA-only paths, they seem to have re-buffed it as the footage we've seen shows, and, well, Iizuka seems to have a hard-on for it. This guy hasn't exactly got the finest reputation for good game design as of late, I dare say he's lost his touch.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Masaru Daimon

[SykoTech]

I do hope that they don't make the Homing Attack like the Adventure games. Being able the attack the same target multiple times in the air would make bosses a button-mashing joke. I liked it better in Unleashed where bosses would evade you after one Homing Attack.

If the Homing Attack is spam happy, it'll just have to go on my list of ignored abilities along with Tails's flight and super transformations. Can't say I plan on using that much anyway, except for taking alternate paths.

[SuperLink]

Because Iizuka makes it damn well clear that there's gonna be plenty of HA-only paths

I don't care what anyone says, I still think HA-only paths >>> No alternate paths. How can this be an exclusively bad thing?

This guy hasn't exactly got the finest reputation for good game design as of late, I dare say he's lost his touch.

He probably has, but we'll see how Sonic 4 turns out.

How about setting in penalties for using the Homing Attack?

- Homing Attack could use up rings

- Homing Attack could be weaker than regular spin attack, players taking out enemies with it will be spending twice as long

These would encourage players to do it the more challenging way, to get better times, and scores, and save their rings for special stages/Super Sonic/whatnot.

These penalties in place combined with the alt pathways would make the gameplay a fair bit deeper. Now the chances of these penalties being in the final game are almost zero, but it goes to show that the HA isn't all bad if used right.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's going to take a helluva lot more than putting Shadow into a good game to "redeem" him. It would help, but only a tiny bit.

Some people won't "forgive" him at all, because they'll hate him simply because he's Shadow. Jealousy is quite a silly thing for those kind of people to handle, ya know.

Exactly. Not cheap, fun to use, and it's a classic move. I can't fathom why they would pick a re-buffed HA over the Peel-Out for Sonic 4.

The Peel-Out was probably the most useless move Sonic has ever had, especially when we have the SpinDash which is pretty much the Peel-Out with a bit more protection to it. The only reason I think the Peel-Out was around in Sonic CD was to allow the player to take advantage of the Past/Present/Future concept by getting to the time periods much faster, but other than that I don't see much use for it.

There's absolutely no point to bring use a move simply because it's classic, and even more so when there's another move that does it better. I can understand a bit better for them to use the HA over the Peel-Out, although no one knows exactly how they'll use the HA here (or if it'll be all that necessary).

Edited March 8, 2010 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Thirsty Pocket]

I can't recall a single boss in any game that was made too easy by the homing attack, save for maybe Knuckles and Gamma in SA1, but they were jokes even if you didn't use the homing attack.

Also, Sonic Megamix ( the version I played was 3.0 for the record ), may not have had the intent of being like the classics, but the bosses were copy pasted from Sonic 1. Homing attack was not effective in any way.

Even if it was made by someone else, I have a strong feeling the homing attack will be useless against any boss. At most, it will be used only to gain access to the bosses eeak point. ( most bosses outside the first one probably fly to high to lock onto anyways.That's how it used to be. )

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I can't recall a single boss in any game that was made too easy by the homing attack, save for maybe Knuckles and Gamma in SA1, but they were jokes even if you didn't use the homing attack.

Yeah, virtually every boss has some means of defense against the homing attack, which kept it from being a cheap move.

A few actually spelled suicide if you used it wrong, such as going against the Egg Viper in SA1, while some were much harder to get a direct hit on because they could counter or outrun it like Shadow in SA2, or were unreachable until a certain point like Chaos 4. But aside from those examples, you had to wait until you got a clear shot on virtually every boss in order to use the HA, even if they were as easy as the Egg Golem.

[SykoTech]

Egg Hornet and Egg Golem were the main ones I was thinking of. Homing Attack made getting to them easy. It's also possible to do on the GUN bosses, but it's pretty tricky. It's best to just use the Spin Jump.

I did forget about Egg Viper though. He was more like it.

EDIT: I also think that Sonic 06 had some spammable bosses as well, namely the Mephiles ones. But I only went through that dreaded game once and never touched it again, so I could be wrong.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Tentomon

[Thirsty Pocket]

I have only played SADX, but doesn't Egg hornet fly too high for the homing attack, until it drills into the ground? I also don't remember Egg Golem as much of a cake walk either. Maybe it's a Dreamcast game or there is a less than obvious opportunity I haven't been exploiting?

[Frozen Nitrogen]

A few actually spelled suicide if you used it wrong, such as going against the Egg Viper in SA1, while some were much harder to get a direct hit on because they could counter or outrun it like Shadow in SA2, or were unreachable until a certain point like Chaos 4. But aside from those examples, you had to wait until you got a clear shot on virtually every boss in order to use the HA, even if they were as easy as the Egg Golem.

Designing the bosses around their contrived counters to the Homing Attack is not, methinks, going to give you the cool Robotnik-bopping gameplay of Ye Olden Timez.

Also, I stand by my claim that the homing attack is broken as hell, and inherently broken as well. You either keep it as it is, which is basically handing you the Crissaegrim right off the bat, or you nerf it to the point where it's so useless you might as well get rid of it, like the Rushes. You can't solve the problem without getting rid of it.

This. In spite of Diogenes' "The homing attack is in there so stfu", I'll persist that it shouldn't be in there because it's liable to be a Megamix game-breaker or a useless vestige. Either way, it's fundamentally incommensurate with 2D gameplay. That, AND as we have seen it leads to stepping-stone enemies which is essentially just lazy level design. "Let's see, we could put a cool, themed gimmick or speed-based ramp to get Sonic up and over this pit... ah hell, just slap 3 badniks there and let's go for lunch."

There are other ways to give Sonic his own routes without compromising the difficulty. Just saying.

Weird gravity-defying spinning top? Fuck you, original level-specific route-mechanism. MOAR HOMING CHAINS.

Crazy moving mini-conveyor above electric spark floors? Fuck you, original level-specific route-mechanism. MOAR HOMING CHAINS.

EDIT: In b4 apologist "Splash Hill's got the LBZ pulley." Firstly, it's not original. Secondly, one rehashed mechanism does not cancel out Iizuka's apparent implication of massed Homing Attack Bonanza.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Frozen Nitrogen

[SuperLink]

Weird gravity-defying spinning top? Fuck you, original level-specific route-mechanism. MOAR HOMING CHAINS.

Crazy moving mini-conveyor above electric spark floors? Fuck you, original level-specific route-mechanism. MOAR HOMING CHAINS.

But Tails and Knuckles could use those too.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

But Tails and Knuckles could use those too.

I'm spewing vitriol over the use of homing-attack-badnik-chains taking the place of cool level gimmicks in general. The Sonic-exclusivity of the gimmicks they replace is not my primary concern. S3 had no Sonic-only routes (Tails could go everywhere and more), and that worked out just fine.

(Also, Noodlemouse is Sonic Only so why people are conjecturing about routes that exclude Tails and Knuckles is beyond me. They're NOT THERE ANYWAY)

EDIT: Although, if you wanted a Sonic-specific level gimmick, wouldn't a variant of the Marble Garden Zone one be a great thing to co-opt? Just change it so that it IS Sonic-only. Justifyable, too, in that one could say he's the only hero who can run fast enough to rotate them into sustained flight.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Frozen Nitrogen

[SuperLink]

I'm spewing vitriol over the use of homing-attack-badnik-chains taking the place of cool level gimmicks in general.

Where are you getting the idea that there are no gimmicks? If you're jumping to conclusions like that it's no wonder you're mad.

S3 had no Sonic-only routes (Tails could go everywhere and more), and that worked out just fine.

Why not make that better? Since when does it have to be "the old way or the highway"? If this is a true successor to Sonic 3 it needs to do everything that did but better. Back then it was "Tails and Knuckles can do what Sonic can do and more", adding paths that only Sonic can get to add to his credibility.

(Also, Noodlemouse is Sonic Only so why people are conjecturing about routes that exclude Tails and Knuckles is beyond me. They're NOT THERE ANYWAY)

Because if interviews are any indication they may well be in the future. If the lock-on thing turns out true, Knuckles could be playable in Episode 1 and get his own alternate paths, S3&K style.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Lyra

[Thirsty Pocket]

Couldn't Tails and Knuckles use the anti graity Tops and Death Egg treads too? ( Knux had to be debugged into it but still. ) ...The idea is to give Sonic a path that Tails and Knuckles CAN'T take. I am not saying the homing attack is a good solution, but it is something. It just tends to be spammed. It's hard to think of something Sonic can do that others cant, that can be used for alternate paths.

In a series where most characters run almost as fast as Sonic with most of his abilities, take away everything he learned post S3&K, and suddenly a majority of the cast make Sonic seem feeble by comparison.

EDIT: Solid Snake'd. I really ought to use a REAL browser.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Lando The Bat

[Dreadknux]

EDIT: In b4 apologist "Splash Hill's got the LBZ pulley." Firstly, it's not original. Secondly, one rehashed mechanism does not cancel out Iizuka's apparent implication of massed Homing Attack Bonanza.

You realise of course, that people who are challenging your posts aren't exactly "apologists". I wonder if you even realise how bat-shit insane you look when you type. I don't even have this much venom for Sonic 06. Why do you have to sound like Iizuka is taking your dog and knifing it? And if your response is "replace 'dog' with 'Sonic' and you'll know why" then I think you just need to go outside and drink a beer or something. I mean, it's okay to be disappointed and all, but Jesus.

For the record, I'm not too impressed with the whole homing attack thing either, but you know. The HA's not done too badly in 2D games up til this point, if they can find some way of making it work then I'm game. I agree that it shouldn't be a means to an unlimited number of bottomless-pit crossing, but then there's no implication of that whatsoever. The only implication is in what was actually said - that there will be alternative routes accessible using the HA. Hell, we don't even know if badniks are going to be such 'stepping stones' to these routes.

I think what makes the HA not so much a bad thing in 2D is simply how the Sonic games/games in general are created. If you set a bunch of HA-able objects in the air leading to a platform, it's very easy (compared to doing the same in 3D) to just slap a floor underneath it in case you miss or overshoot. Try making a 3D level - especially one with the sort of length that Sonic Unleashed enjoys - and putting down a huge, polygonal floor across the entire real estate. Memory hog!

As a result, HA segments in 3D Sonic games are more often than not associated with bottomless pit drops. In all the 2D games that have adopted the HA, I've not nearly encountered enough segments requiring/using it that result in instant death the second I miss.

This shit is pointless anyway. All I want to know is whether Sega are on track to fixing the physics shown in that leaked alpha video. Everything else is a something of something something.

[Djawed]

I think it's pretty stupid to add such a useless feature in a 2d game. The thing is what people worries is that when a company adds things to a game the reason is to add some kind of depth or at least be usefull in a way where it expands the gameplay.

The least homing attack could do is being useless. More than that would remove depth or innovation, and depth will change into chaining enemy to enemy. So it can only do nothing or bad. It will not do good. So that is what worries people. People are afraid it will lean more towards the bad

Edited March 8, 2010 by Jaouad

[Dreadknux]

Sonic Advance 2 has a similar move. It's entirely optional, with its use mostly for time-attacking and speed-running - most players would think of that as 'nothing'. Does it bother you that Sonic Advance 2 has a 'nothing' move?

[SuperLink]

Sonic Advance 2 has a similar move. It's entirely optional, with its use mostly for time-attacking and speed-running - most players would think of that as 'nothing'. Does it bother you that Sonic Advance 2 has a 'nothing' move?

Exactly, and I'm pretty sure SA2 and 3 had a couple of hidden alternate paths to use the homing attack to reach aswell. Yeah you could get there with Tails and Knuckles too, but the fact you could only get there with the homing attack while playing as Sonic and they were barely noticeable is much more of a good thing than a bad thing.

[Djawed]

Sonic Advance 2 has a similar move. It's entirely optional, with its use mostly for time-attacking and speed-running - most players would think of that as 'nothing'. Does it bother you that Sonic Advance 2 has a 'nothing' move?

No I didn't, but that was because it actually "was" a nothing move in advance 2, and even in the rush series. It wasn't usefull and it was there for no reason(while I oftenly did use it to air dash in rush). I didn't even know there was a homing attack in those games.

Nobody has played sonic 4 yet. But the screens and leaked footage create an image on how it is going to work. Which for me looks like it's leaning more towards the way it has been implemented in 3d games like sonic unleashed's 2d sections(which the advance and rush series did not).

If that is the case, this game will set new standards on how a 2d sonic game should play. I'm actually really afraid on how it's going to turn out. Clearly the old way of just jumping on enemies wasn't broken and then they decide to add something useless. I just find it to be a very weird choice, it's like they are forcing it and haven't thought it through.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Jaouad

[GameboyHero]

I just find it to be a very weird choice, it's like they are forcing it and haven't thought it through.

See that's the thing: It's optional. I mean, like in SAd2, it was there as a option, not mandatory like it's been in 3D. Rush it was optional, fan games (most of them) it was optional. And if the tread continues, it's still gonna be optional. Wanna jump on your badniks, go for it! Can't seem to hit that enemy right, smack them with the HA! It'll still play the same for veteran players and give the new players at least something.

Am I personally happy with the HA, depends, but I'm willing to wait and see what pops up.

Really, the only thing that's worrying me at the moment with this is if they map the HA to waggle for wiimote only play. Then I will be legitimately pissed.