Sonic 4: Episode 1: The 'Rehash'?

[Remy]

doesn't bother me that it's a rehash, it's been damn long since we've had one.

[Solid SOAP]

doesn't bother me that it's a rehash, it's been damn long since we've had one.

This, the fact that people are bitching at use of "rehashed" Badniks and the like confuses me, since we've been getting new robots for years which the same people complained about. Now that we're seeing the return of old enemies, all of a sudden it's a bad thing because they're not new, and again all of a sudden it's a bad thing because the gameplay is supposed to be like the Genesis games too? I don't get Sonic fans anymore, play Sonic Rush or Sonic Unleashed if you want something new, this game is SUPPOSED to be atleast somewhat of a rehash.

[Derg]

If I were to be on a side, I guess I would agree the most with Slingerland's perspective, in that I would have been able to appreciate these efforts more if they didn't use this name. Despite what I'm about to say, I'm hoping for this game to be great, or one of the most universally accepted Sonic games since the Dreamcast adventures. It's with great non-hostility, that I try to object to some things in your argument. (If any of this kind of faux intelligence is too annoying, I'll stop if people are too annoyed by it)

...

...

But what if Sonic 4: Episode 1 was simply a 2D rehash of say, Sonic 3, despite the new storyline? As far as we know, there are only 4 Zones in the first episode, which leads me to wonder - if Sega took the rehash route with S4E1, would that necessarily be a bad thing (assuming future episodes were a bit more creative)? Why do you think Sega might want to go down this road in the first place?

I personally don't like the idea of making easy use of ignorance, this isn't any more helpful since one of Sonic's strengths is of Retro game collections. If Sonic 4 increases the interest in retro sonic games, people would be able to see the creativity that is almost brought to a halt when they approach 4. There's a lot of questioning I would have for Sega, but those kinds of questions really don't have a place in this kind of topic.

I know, pure speculation topic - something I don't do an awful lot of - but I think it'd be fun to wonder, particularly after reading Brad's interesting TSS article. It's an alternative view on his rehash point that I think might be interesting to discuss. Personally, should Sega spend the first four Zones filled with old badniks and old level gimmicks, I'd say it would be to help re-introduce the player to the classic mechanics of 2D Sonic gaming.

Would it be alright if Tron 2 was simply a retreading of Tron 1 with prettier graphics, just because it's been so long since the first one? If people are so out of tune with these kinds of things, wouldn't it be just as easy to introduce/say that instead of robots, that they were aliens the whole time? I don't see the real power of this kind of logic, if people are so ignorant to not see that this is "old material," wouldn't it be as easy to lure them into thinking something new is also apart of something old? Since the sonic fandom is so "noisy," the news of this kind of this lack of creativity can(or should, but seeing how despite the reputation, Sonic 06 sold well enough...) easily make a bad impression, and that instead of expectation of creativity increasing with each episode, it can be predicted as going down.

I know a lot of people would just say "I played Sonic 3 yesterday", but remember Sonic 4 isn't just for old-school fans that are still here. It's for old-school gamers who haven't touched a Sonic game - Mega Drive or otherwise - since S&K. The people you might talk to on the street that say "Yeah, I remember Sonic when I was 7! That shit was awesome!", but have since moved on from replaying the classics, or haven't been interested whatsoever in Sonic's outing since 1997. I refer to those dudes as the 'lost fanbase' (even though they might not strictly have been fans in the first place).

While catering to the ignorance, couldn't Sonic Team easily make the checkered squares into diamonds? I mean, if the average gamer isn't going to recognize that, at least the fans would notice, and the fans would have more legit reasons of optimism for creativity increasing for each episode.

I'm probably looking into this first impression too hard, but the Sonic series is amazing for its ability to thrive, even though most of the past impressions have been bad. Although the bringing up of bad Sonic games is aggravating me as well, it's well...a miracle, game companies have "died" for putting out better quality games, and it's amazing that Sonic Team was able to even get to the point of being "born again." Unleashed was a good game, with flaws, but still good, but I guess even after all the "shit" we've seen and dealt with, I'm just really dissapointed that this is just being treated as another Sonic Game, instead of a true sequel.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Derg

[Paul Str337]

You could argue New Super Mario Bros and especially NSMB Wii are just a re-hash of old Mario games and nobody seems to care about that. It's been so long since we've had a new "classic" style Sonic game that I couldn't care if it was a total re-hash. We already know that isn't the case as the press release has promised "all new boss battles" but if Eggman brought out a cheeky wrecking ball once I wouldn't mind at all, in fact it'd probably make the experience sweeter.

[redmenace]

I wouldn't like if it was a rehash. The first zone is okay though. It's like the series' cliché already.

You could argue New Super Mario Bros and especially NSMB Wii are just a re-hash of old Mario games and nobody seems to care about that.

But Mario can do no wrong. You can't forget that.

Edited February 7, 2010 by redmenace

[JEV3]

Now I don't get what your trying to say. First you say that having similar themes and badniks is a good thing, then turn around and say Sonic 3's themes are generic.

And Sonic 3 is generic?

...

Sure, they're not as varied in theme as S&K, but they have unique twists in some parts.

(my emphasis)

My whole point is that in two sequential releases, the first is going to be more typical than the second. To clarify, I love Sonic 3, and I love its themes. However, compared to S&K, they aren't quite as varied as S&K. My point is that to start with something familiar and then go deeper is good strategy. Angel Island is another example... before act 2 it does the very same thing.

While catering to the ignorance, couldn't Sonic Team easily make the checkered squares into diamonds? I mean, if the average gamer isn't going to recognize that, at least the fans would notice, and the fans would have more legit reasons of optimism for creativity increasing for each episode.

I'm pretty sure its called a homage... which as far as I know, is selling on the exact opposite of ignorance. Making homages to familiar stages is a way to remind us that they know about Sonic's roots... and is one of their strategies to try to win us over. They're saying "We do look back to the past and we love GHZ and the motobug" and we're responding with "We hate this game because its more of the same."

If I see a homage to an old level, I'm gonna feel like they paid attention to what I liked, not that they chose to be ignorant and are repeating Sonic 1 for the benefit of those that don't know it exists.

EDIT: S&K was my introduction to the wrecking ball, believe it or not. But Paul's comment definitely exemplifies the kind of "its a homage not a rehash you bums" attitude I have toward this.

Edited February 7, 2010 by JEV3

[EXshad]

I don't understand the complaints of classic badniks being reused, I mean, we haven't seen these guys in years, it's not as if SEGA constantly reuses them over and over again, it'd be nice to see them as 3D models. Plus, NSMBWii had not ONE original enemy or boss in it except maybe Baby Bowser, we never fought him in 2D, and some people are saying that is the best 2D Mario game ever.

Each Genesis Sonic game had different badniks. Very few stayed the same in each title. And while they were all the same style, they were different.

Though, as long as the badniks are the only thing reused, I think I won't mind pretty much at all. And fortunately, that looks like the case!

[Derg]

I'm pretty sure its called a homage... which as far as I know, is selling on the exact opposite of ignorance. Making homages to familiar stages is a way to remind us that they know about Sonic's roots... and is one of their strategies to try to win us over. They're saying "We do look back to the past and we love GHZ and the motobug" and we're responding with "We hate this game because its more of the same."

If I see a homage to an old level, I'm gonna feel like they paid attention to what I liked, not that they chose to be ignorant and are repeating Sonic 1 for the benefit of those that don't know it exists.

EDIT: S&K was my introduction to the wrecking ball, believe it or not. But Paul's comment definitely exemplifies the kind of "its a homage not a rehash you bums" attitude I have toward this.

I guess I should I ask you to define "us" in some of your sentences, so I can get a better understanding of what you intend to say, whether you mean the average gamer, or sonic fan, both, or...yes.

My original point is Dread's perspective of the reuse of square checkers is to give the general "forgotten" gamer a way they can recognize a classic sonic theme, but, if it has been so long that they have forgotten, or don't know what "classic" means, what is the point in that kind of homage if the general gamer doesn't know it is one? While this zone has every right of being just a "homage" zone," we also have every same right in believing it's just supposed to be the tropical zone, and that Sonic Team was too lazy to come up with a new shape pattern. Also, it's not like we, the sonic fans, have been without a green hill homage for as long as the length between Sonic3k and 4. I guess I should leave the level design alone for now, until we get more information of the subject.

[JEV3]

By "us" I mean we as retro sonic fans. I'm pretty sure Dread meant something more along the lines of recalling characteristics of the classics than telling us what GHZ looks like because we forgot. Surely he'd be willing to elaborate for our benefit.

[redmenace]

While catering to the ignorance, couldn't Sonic Team easily make the checkered squares into diamonds? I mean, if the average gamer isn't going to recognize that, at least the fans would notice, and the fans would have more legit reasons of optimism for creativity increasing for each episode.

The grass isn't the same however, and people still complained, guess why? Because it's not the same.

[Paul Str337]

But Mario can do no wrong. You can't forget that.

It helps that Mario games have been better than Sonic games in recent years.

Nintendo have never been afraid to keep older elements in Mario games; be it music, enimies, power-ups and level design. SEGA in the meantime have tried to evolve Sonic basically ignoring the old-skool until now. I've no issue with old Badniks coming back especially while Mario stomps on the game old enemies in every game, just as long as the levels and bosses are new.

[Indigo Rush]

But Mario can do no wrong. You can't forget that.

"no"

Mario is susceptible to bad games just as Sonic is. He ain't perfect.

He's close, though.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Indigo Dude

[Rusty Spy]

Nintendo have never been afraid to keep older elements in Mario games; be it music, enimies, power-ups and level design. SEGA in the meantime have tried to evolve Sonic basically ignoring the old-skool until now. I've no issue with old Badniks coming back especially while Mario stomps on the game old enemies in every game, just as long as the levels and bosses are new.

Just an open thought but, why exactly does Sega ignore those elements. I know that their main focus is making games that the kiddies will buy, but I HIGHLY doubt using familiar elements and themes from the older games would detract their main audience, and it'd only help keep everyone else's mouths shut, and more likely familiarize other people more with more than just the character.

Sega keeps stamping Sonic's mug on the game's boxes because there's little else to familiarize him with.

I myself have no problem with most of the themes of recent games, but given the choice, I'd take a direction closer to the classic themes any day.