What would you like to see in a 3D Sonic game?

[Indigo Rush]

How could I be so foolish! I've forgotten another concept for free-roaming Sonic!

Sonic can pull and push blocks like he did in Marble Zone and whatnot. Puzzles, YEAH!! I also wanted to mention underwater levels making a return in the 3D games... I thought they were fun, at least. *makes air bubble noise*

And I'm still thinking about the alternate characters right now. All I can say for now is that I'd have them playable and mandatory, only not as different from Sonic as Amy or Big was in past games. They would retain the same speed that Sonic has (up to about Mach Speed, they can't enter that mode of speed) and roll around and spindash.

Again, I'll be more specific at a later time.

[Rusty Spy]

But wait a minute, what about that thrill I was going on about? This seems fun and all, but Sonic doesn't sound very fast. So far, he just seems like a hurried platformer. Well hang on to your spines, things are about to get hectic.

Sonic, as you know, has a set acceleration rate. Once he reaches top speeds, he's not going to get much faster. Bollocks, I say. Sonic has every right to break the sound barrier if he wants, and I say we let him. But how the bloody heck is he going to reach 765 miles per hour with a control set like this, and how will we control him? The answer? Like Unleashed.

After Sonic reaches a certain top speed for a few seconds, the cleverly unmentioned Boost Bar will "unlock" and allow Sonic to turn his somersault into a Boost. The Ring Energy mechanics, unhindered side-stepping, drifting and Sonic Boost are now available! All it took was some practice and patience to get to that level of "Mach Speed" as I call it. Or maybe a dash panel. Hm.

Now, control doesn't stop there. Sonic had better keep that momentum up! Stopping completely will put him back to square one. Sonic's Mach Speed is only available as long as the speed bar is above the yellow area, Sonic can then use his Ring Energy for massive speeds. There will be special areas in the level for this mode of play, so don't freak out. Ah, but what of spinball mechanics? Well fear not! When Sonic' in Mach Speed, he can still roll using the ( B ) button. But here's a little idea... what if, while Sonic was boosting, you then went into a rolling maneuver? Speed euphoria happens. Sonic can't quick-step or drift when in ball mode, so you're going to have to switch it on and off to keep things up to speed, but that speed will be nonstop rewarding when you onlock it. Soon enough, Sonic will gain enough momentum to unlock another level of never before seen speed once you reach the red level of the speed bar. That's right, blokes. Sonic pulls a "Sonic Advance 2" on us and officially breaks the sound barrier against our own personal input. How the HECK are you going to control him now, you ask? The exact same way. Sonic still travels as fast as he does in-game, but not relationally. Do you see where I'm going with this? When Sonic reaches "Sonic Speed," time around him slows down to a half point. The enemies, obstacles, everything slows down, but Sonic still moves at the same pace in relation to the player. But relationally, Sonic's blasting off at SONIC SPEED, ZOMG. Also, Sonic sprouts that "Figure-Eight" running motion, to help remind you how awesome this is. While in Mach or Sonic Speed, Sonic can't wall jump, pick up items, climb latters and other moves that are better utilized in a more stationary moveset. Sonic can do a homing attack, though, although it'll cut his momentum a little. When grinding at that level of speed, Sonic retains the moveset from Unleashed as well. When he's not at top speed, it acts more like Sonic Heroes, only the physics are still prevolent, oh, and tapping ( B ) or (X) has the same effect when in regular speed, only it doubles as an attack. Pretty useful. But back to Mach/Sonic Speed... Ring Dashing is present too, but you need to be quick about it! Also, if Sonic gets hurt, he has a limited amount of time to boost back up to speed before he looses his tension... if he dawdles for more than 3-4 seconds, he's back to square one. But don't worry, it won't be too impossible to regain that speed if you truly are in a faster section of the level. Oh, and one more detail, when at Mach Speed and what not, the music tempo or drumbeat increases pace, because running to relaxing music doesn't always work.

Sounds cool, and I really like your idea for the spindash, it adds a newer level of control over the move that was never really shown in a game yet, though I have to say that your idea of the boost sounds a bit needlessly complicated, and like it's being isolated from his regular speed movement as a completely different control scheme altogether. I feel the whole point of Sonic's speed is that it was part of his regular control scheme and didn't require anymore than that to control it. I much prefer the Advance 2 method of utilizing the boost.

[lounge]

I'd like to see sonic team try making an engine that can handle precise character physics, rather than wasting so much effort on that stupid overuse of G.I. and miles upon miles of wasted geometry.

[Blacklightning]

Regarding physics in 3D... what a lot of people tend to completely neglect as exactly how much more precision is needed in 3D platforming physics than in 2D ones. On a 2D axis you never have to worry about falling towards or away from the screen and having to rebalance yourself as such, and a lot of teeter-tottering often goes on a hell of a lot unless the level happens to be perfectly flat (and let's be honest, that just makes for bland level design). Furthermore it makes like highspeed ramps or shuttle loops much harder than they typically need to be - in loops you actually have the third dimension to deal with, and have to steer a rather fine-tuned balance mid transit to ensure you don't fly straight out of the loop into god-knows-where or end up crashing unceremonously into the ground (and people wonder why these things are auto-guided in 3D... ). And then there's camera angles to consider. Now, while a 2D camera angle does have the disadvantage of not being able to see more than a couple of metres ahead of you unaided, it does allow you to see everything in your immediate vicinity easily, and this is something 3D games can't handle no matter how godly their camera system is, which frequently requires you to guess at offscreen hazards or platforms. Hell, even something as simple as slopes can be buggered up pretty easily - one accidental sideways twitch is all it takes to fuck up all the momentum you needed to climb in the first place, and can potentially send you all the way back down to the bottom again.

Is all that hassle worth it? I doubt it. The only real way I could see it being plausible is only making Sonic physics-enabled whenever he goes into rolling state and allow to switch between at will, so all those buggers obsessed with rolling down hills are happy yet we still get a reasonably stable running and platforming experience everywhere else. Full-game physics are simply too much trouble to be worth it, to the point we might as well be playing Super Monkey Ball instead.

[Phos]

The platforms in most platformers are usually flat on top, Sonic included.

[Blacklightning]

I was talking more about the actual ground, much less the suspended platforms and whatnot.

[Phos]

That's flat in a lot of places as well. They have many a lot of features in them, but between them, the various patches of normal ground are usually mostly level.

[Badnik Zero]

Furthermore it makes like highspeed ramps or shuttle loops much harder than they typically need to be - in loops you actually have the third dimension to deal with, and have to steer a rather fine-tuned balance mid transit to ensure you don't fly straight out of the loop into god-knows-where or end up crashing unceremoniously into the ground (and people wonder why these things are auto-guided in 3D... ).

I know about this, and I guess that's the real challenge that comes with making a Sonic game. I still think it should be done. Look at what Sumo did with its corkscrew in Seaside Hill. Have the camera follow the player, or make the loop wider. The corkscrew in Speed Highway was always more exciting to me than those automated loops, because I was in control. Systems can be made (like camera angle and tighter steering) to make sure the player keeps that control. Even if what you're saying about loops is such a problem, what's the excuse for the lack of ramps or hills? You can dash off of a bunch of things in SA1, but not in the way you were intended to. I think those are some of the best moments in the game. I wanna shoot up a incline and into the air. The places you can do this in modern games can be counted on one hand, where it was the main attraction when the series launched. I see it work in SA1. And falling off things has always been an issue with platformers, that's why games like Mario 64 have the little things like Mario catching the edges of a ledge if he's falling off. In fact, Sonic has that animation in every 2D game I can think of, but it's absent for some reason in games where pits are the first cause of death. My point is, so what if players can shoot sideways off loops. Remedy that. I think a traction button would be good for any of the above problems. Maybe while the button is toggled, Sonic can't reach top speed, but he'll stop flying off edges while you run. Something like that lets a player find their own balance of speed and platforming. It complicates the moveset, but things like that are necessary if you want depth. I can't think of other 3D platformers with moves as simple as Sonic games, but then Sonic is less platformer today and more of a racing game. The difference between what Sonic Xtreme would've brought and concepts in Adventure is worlds apart.

The only real way I could see it being plausible is only making Sonic physics-enabled whenever he goes into rolling state and allow to switch between at will, so all those buggers obsessed with rolling down hills are happy yet we still get a reasonably stable running and platforming experience everywhere else. Full-game physics are simply too much trouble to be worth it, to the point we might as well be playing Super Monkey Ball instead.

The Sonic game I'm talking about would resemble the old games much more than the new ones. I don't know what you think we'd be losing by allowing full pinball physics. Levels would be built to roll in. And it's funny you mention Super Monkey Ball, because ever since

released, I've been asking myself why Sonic games don't act more like this. We've got downhill action, bumping off objects, even checkers. It's obvious how much this game resembles classic Sonic. What separated Sonic from other platformers of its day wasn't the speed, it was the dynamic of the speed which came through (wait for the magic word) rolling. Edited December 20, 2009 by Cupcake Hedgehog

[azoo]

Cupcake Hedgehog is the winner of this topic. The point was made clearly, but I must continue to blather on about my ideas on how to make certain things work.

I think that if loops are a problem to stay in, why not put invisible harriers around the sides of the loop, so Sonic doesn't fall out? Or heck, give the player "3/4th control", where they control over the direction they move in the loop and the speed they go in it, but the path is set on the loop to dead center so you don't have to worry about flying off. And if that seems to handicap the player too much, then make the loops like Sonic R, which is a mixture of tighter steering, invisible barriers so you don't fall out, and is wide enough that you have enough space to move around on it. If not, you could take a more extreme approach to my "3/4ths control" and just give loops a 2.5D side view. What I'm trying to say is that there is many more ways to fix this than you think.

The camera wouldn't even be much of a problem. If you don't want the camera to constantly follow right behind you (like me, because I always thought that looks sort of boring), you could do it how Sonic R did it (and just about every racing / whatever game that contains a loop or two in it that isn't Sonic), you make it where the camera follows you all the way to when you reach the top, then the camera flips to show you suspended upside-down, going down the loop (which according to what I've seen gives you quite a thrill when you see it happen).

As for this "boost" thing people are going on about, I'd rather that if a Sonic game was to have this of any kind, it would be like the one in Sonic Advance 2 (even if that game was a hold right fest, the ability was still a good concept). The best parts about it is that it requires high momentum to activate, doesn't require any button pressing (it's automatic as you the high enough speed), it doesn't hurt enemies nor does it attract rings! If a "boost" of any kind is to be in a 3D Sonic, it should he this one. But there's still the problem: keeping simplicity in the controls. Well, I thought it through, and (hearing it before from others), I decided that maybe drifting could be set to analog controls (like pressing left or right while moving that fast automatically starts a drift), and tone down the quick-step into an ordinary "strafe", which functions in vein to the side-stepping in SatSR, set to the left and right bumpers, of course.

And Sonic's "spinball mechanics" are much different from Monkey Ball's (or any other ball/marble game's) set of physics, despite their similar usage. Compared to marble and ball games, Sonic's speed on an incline increases to speeds a lot faster than AiAi ever could, and in definitely quicker times. Also to note that Sonic's controls when rolling are much more streamlined and tighter than a game like that. And lastly, you don't control Sonic's speed either, physics do.

Lastly, Cupcake Hedgie, I don't really see the Sonic environment as a skate park. I see it as a platforming stage with oddly shaped level geometry all over the place, but yet still enough flatland and open-field stuff to call it an incredibly unique platformer and not a skateboarding game.

[Super Yoshi]

I would like to see some things that were in the old games, like the special stages. Because the ones in Sonic 2 were just the best ever. Also having some old levels would be good to see.

[Blacklightning]

Well, at least people are thinking it through this time. It really fucking bothers me when people gabble on about "OMFG FIZZIKS WILL SAIV 3D SAWNIK" without even considering the difficulties and inherent issues behind it.

I know about this, and I guess that's the real challenge that comes with making a Sonic game. I still think it should be done. Look at what Sumo did with its corkscrew in Seaside Hill. Have the camera follow the player, or make the loop wider. The corkscrew in Speed Highway was always more exciting to me than those automated loops, because I was in control. Systems can be made (like camera angle and tighter steering) to make sure the player keeps that control.

No doubt. The only real point I was trying to make is that it's harder than it sounds - and that's coming from someone who's personally dabbled in it. Funnily enough we actually used that very same camera following trick for the loops that were big enough to stay in control of... of course, the pseduo-FPS controls and camera orientation helps more than you might think.

Even if what you're saying about loops is such a problem, what's the excuse for the lack of ramps or hills?

Because it's harder to control than it needs to be? I guess it depends on the extent of physics we're talking about here. In the classic games it was possible to slip and slide awkwardly on a 15-degree slope - now for 2D all-round, that's fine, because you only have two different directions to face. But when you factor an additional dimension in, orienting yourself becomes unusually difficult, especially when going uphill, and that's sometimes losing the kind of precision you really need to make a critical jump. That's not taking level design into account, granted, but I've put this into practice and I've found 3D physics tend to work a lot better when they're implemented with a degree of leniency so you don't have to constantly worry about Newton levels of physics just to get from one point to another. If there's a steep hill or ramp, sure, put speed and physics together for good effect, but the lesser stuff is a constant nuicance to put up with.

And falling off things has always been an issue with platformers, that's why games like Mario 64 have the little things like Mario catching the edges of a ledge if he's falling off. In fact, Sonic has that animation in every 2D game I can think of, but it's absent for some reason in games where pits are the first cause of death.

My main point is that too much heavy physics can result in areas that people can fall off where it really shouldn't be their fault.

My point is, so what if players can shoot sideways off loops. Remedy that. I think a traction button would be good for any of the above problems. Maybe while the button is toggled, Sonic can't reach top speed, but he'll stop flying off edges while you run.

Y'know, that reminds me, wasn't there this thing that happened sometimes in SA2 where Sonic would come to a full stop at a ledge with one of those teeter-totter animations if you tried to run over it? I reckon they could just expand on that instead and save the trouble of using an additional button press. Make it so that it only happens at high speeds, but can still fall off whilst rolling or moving slowly, I dunno, I guess it'd depend on other factors in the game, but a strict criteria for when you can and can't fall off ledges would work wonders with the right combination.

The Sonic game I'm talking about would resemble the old games much more than the new ones. I don't know what you think we'd be losing by allowing full pinball physics. Levels would be built to roll in.

Well for one thing, stability. Monkey Ball and Sonic, even classic Sonic, are still two completely different genres, and I don't remember if I said it before but not that many people actually play Sonic in the interests of playing a dexterity game. There were definently some neat moments of physics abuse, but the entire game didn't actually revolve around them, and hell, they weren't even very realistic at times (first example that comes to mind would have to be running on the freakin' cieling in Lava Reef... and not only staying up there as long as there was roof left, but actually managing to gain speed in the process). I'm not saying slope physics don't belong or anything, but they really ought to only show up when they're needed so the more run/jump areas of the game are stable enough not to have to worry about it. The solution to that should be simple: rolling for physics abuse, standing upright for anything else. That's practically the way it's always been as long as that kind of physics still existed, and I really don't think it's a good idea to make a game that's nothing but rolling. I mean, unless it's Spinball 2 or something.

I think that if loops are a problem to stay in, why not put invisible harriers around the sides of the loop, so Sonic doesn't fall out?

Well for one thing, because there's a neat little physics exploit in it. If you exit a loop sideways at just the right point, you can use it as a pseudo-ramp instead and use it to go higher. I mean, just take off the top half and it's practically a ramp already, if it helps see where I'm coming from. See, by restricting freedom of movement there's the potential to stop some awesome shit from happening (especially with invisible barriers, christ) - the better option would be simply to find a way to prevent the player from doing these things by accident. You know, oversensitivity and camera angles and such. Though I believe I already went over that with Cupcake already.

Last minute edit: Actually, come to think of it, maybe you could have some restrictions in place of a beginner's mode, you know, training wheels as far as Sonic games go. Then more experienced and experimental players can just turn all the restrictions off if they want to do crazy shit with the physics. I dunno, there's an idea in there and I'm too late in to elaborate, you figure out the rest =P

As for this "boost" thing people are going on about, I'd rather that if a Sonic game was to have this of any kind, it would be like the one in Sonic Advance 2 (even if that game was a hold right fest, the ability was still a good concept). The best parts about it is that it requires high momentum to activate, doesn't require any button pressing (it's automatic as you the high enough speed), it doesn't hurt enemies nor does it attract rings! If a "boost" of any kind is to be in a 3D Sonic, it should he this one.

Hey, quick question about this just to be sure. Did Advance 3 use that exact same mechanic? Just curious seeing as they seem like similar types of functionality and I haven't played SA2 myself (for the better, perhaps?). Frankly though it doesn't seem so much like a boost than it does a higher top speed with colourful afterimages.

But there's still the problem: keeping simplicity in the controls. Well, I thought it through, and (hearing it before from others), I decided that maybe drifting could be set to analog controls (like pressing left or right while moving that fast automatically starts a drift), and tone down the quick-step into an ordinary "strafe", which functions in vein to the side-stepping in SatSR, set to the left and right bumpers, of course.

Going back to the ADR example again, you'd be surprised how much FPS style controls and camera works for this kind of thing. Not does strafing as default work wonders for manueverability, the camera's always pointed exactly where you want it and you never have to worry about it fagging up and not showing you exactly where you need to jump next or whatnot. The quick step wasn't a particularly bad approach to the problem either, particularly given the way they built specific "lanes" around it for Unleashed whenever it was needed most, but ADR's pseduo-FPS setup just seems to allow for a lot more and doesn't strictly require the game to be built around it. Only real downside is that you're forced to look at a constant backshot of Sonic while you're playing... but I've been curious as to how it'd look if you got another external camera-in-camera shot showing another view of Sonic while you're playing, kinda like how you had that little face in Doom games that bleeds when you get hurt and grins menacingly whenever you find a new gun.

And Sonic's "spinball mechanics" are much different from Monkey Ball's (or any other ball/marble game's) set of physics, despite their similar usage. Compared to marble and ball games, Sonic's speed on an incline increases to speeds a lot faster than AiAi ever could, and in definitely quicker times. Also to note that Sonic's controls when rolling are much more streamlined and tighter than a game like that. And lastly, you don't control Sonic's speed either, physics do.

Lastly, Cupcake Hedgie, I don't really see the Sonic environment as a skate park. I see it as a platforming stage with oddly shaped level geometry all over the place, but yet still enough flatland and open-field stuff to call it an incredibly unique platformer and not a skateboarding game.

...d'oh, here I go to address that same point and I didn't take into account that someone might've beaten me to it. Oh well, thanks for the elaboration I guess, it seems to explain the point better than I did.

[Rusty Spy]

Well for one thing, because there's a neat little physics exploit in it. If you exit a loop sideways at just the right point, you can use it as a pseudo-ramp instead and use it to go higher. I mean, just take off the top half and it's practically a ramp already, if it helps see where I'm coming from. See, by restricting freedom of movement there's the potential to stop some awesome shit from happening (especially with invisible barriers, christ) - the better option would be simply to find a way to prevent the player from doing these things by accident. You know, oversensitivity and camera angles and such. Though I believe I already went over that with Cupcake already.

I'd rather have restricted control and not have to fall off a loop than have no restriction and be frustrated by what should be a simple gimmick.

Having restricted left and right movement on a loop takes away the automation of the loops and pretty much makes it work just like it does in 2D, just from a different perspective. And if you actually allow control over the direction you go on a loop, you not only run the risk of falling off, but it also prevents the game from having some of the cooler,

lest you want to go through hell trying to control yourself on those at high speeds. Not to mention it takes away from the cinematic view of going through the loops, instead just looking at a the floor for 2 seconds.

Last minute edit: Actually, come to think of it, maybe you could have some restrictions in place of a beginner's mode, you know, training wheels as far as Sonic games go. Then more experienced and experimental players can just turn all the restrictions off if they want to do crazy shit with the physics. I dunno, there's an idea in there and I'm too late in to elaborate, you figure out the rest =P

Frankly, that just seems like over complicating the pointless.

Hey, quick question about this just to be sure. Did Advance 3 use that exact same mechanic? Just curious seeing as they seem like similar types of functionality and I haven't played SA2 myself (for the better, perhaps?). Frankly though it doesn't seem so much like a boost than it does a higher top speed with colourful afterimages.

It did have the same mechanic, but I don't think it was as good as SAdv2's since the mechanics in SAdv3 didn't have as good physics.

The boost itself was so much more than that. For one, it was more like a speed mode since it activated when running at increasing momentum, and deactivates when you go below a certain speed, also, it gave you increased acceleration which makes running uphill an absolute breeze.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Black Spy

[azoo]

Black Spy basically explained how I felt about the loops completely. Having no barriers of some sort on a loop is just asking for flying off in the wrong direction, which could unintentionally lead to that previously mentioned loop-turned-ramp. And really, I love the crazy cinematic loop formations, just as long as I have control over the speed and direction I'm going on it.

FPS camera controls are really good for cutting corners at high speeds, but the camera can be automated and very cinematic, and yet still highly functional. It's just that certain Sega isn't necessarily good at doing these things.

And sure, I know that physics isn't all that Sonic is; in fact I never wanted to really give the impression that I thought that. I'm just saying that the series has gone without it for so long and it IS an important part of Sonic gameplay that needs to return to the series. Because although yes, momentum and physics affect Sonic's fight against gravity when in running mode, it's nowhere near as forceful as when in rolling mode. I look at it that Sonic is indeed a hurried platformer that, with proper running momentum or rolling mechanics, can become a game of incredible high-speed action and freedom.

[Badnik Zero]

Lastly, Cupcake Hedgie, I don't really see the Sonic environment as a skate park. I see it as a platforming stage with oddly shaped level geometry all over the place, but yet still enough flatland and open-field stuff to call it an incredibly unique platformer and not a skateboarding game.

Hah, yeah. I don't think a skatepark is really accurate, but it's the only comparable game environment I can think of. No other terrain has slopes or ramps like I'm thinking of. Of course the purpose wouldn't be to trick off things, but I'd like Sonic to be fluid in his environment like in a skating game. Skateparks are also a kind of playground, and I think levels should try to capture that feel where you just wanna go out and run on things. I think the playground philosophy is something Miyamoto talked about, and I always liked that idea. But yeah, I wouldn't know how else to explain it without the word skatepark. Maybe just... a Sonic level?

There were definitely some neat moments of physics abuse, but the entire game didn't actually revolve around them, and hell, they weren't even very realistic at times (first example that comes to mind would have to be running on the freakin' ceiling in Lava Reef... and not only staying up there as long as there was roof left, but actually managing to gain speed in the process). I'm not saying slope physics don't belong or anything, but they really ought to only show up when they're needed so the more run/jump areas of the game are stable enough not to have to worry about it. The solution to that should be simple: rolling for physics abuse, standing upright for anything else. That's practically the way it's always been as long as that kind of physics still existed, and I really don't think it's a good idea to make a game that's nothing but rolling.

I didn't mean to advocate for only rolling. That might get boring after a while, which is probably the reason why I'm not much of a Monkey Ball fan. I don't think perfect physics is the way to go either. That kind of thing is for realism, and Sonic doesn't need to be realistic. What I do expect from a Sonic game is enough control to pull off the stunts I want to, and for the game to encourage that with the familiar ramps and loops. The closest thing to rolling action I've gotten post-SA1 is Bingo Highgway, which was all wonky in the steering department and was mostly a spill down a large table anyways. Not a lot of variety in that level, but I appreciated it. I enjoyed Final Rush for the rail movement, but rails don't offer a lot of freedom. The thing about the modern games is, besides feeling like much simpler games, they want to hold your hand, which makes it hard to do anything exciting. Classic objects like bumpers and springs are getting rarer, and when they are used it's often an automated deal like loops. This isn't really what I was replying about anymore, but Phos had a great post in another topic about the games feeling like dial-a-combos and how we're expected to follow the designers' breadcrumbs. The times when Sonic interacts with his environment are artificial to the point where we get ladders of enemies to cross a chasm, or a string of rings to follow with the press of a button. The rolling used to be how Sonic interacted with everything, and if you take that away it gets a bit shallow. I dunno, Unleashed improves on a few of these things, so I'll wait to see what Needlemouse does. In a way I'm seeing how Unleashed uses the boost in the manner the classics used rolling when it comes to gimmick and environment, which makes me happy.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Cupcake Hedgehog

[azoo]

I believe rails are actually a good thing for the Sonic series, just as long as it's not overused like it has been. Rails are actually physics gimmicks, aren't they? Well, at least the ones in SA2 were. If they could just remain at a minimum and function like they did in SA2, then I don't see a problem with them, especially if they weren't directly the only way through a certain path in a level and just probably a gimmick/easter egg deal. Like, imagine standing on a bridge that is over water or something and you want to find a way to reach a floating platform in the distance. Well, what if there was a way to get there that would take some thinking, like getting on the support fences on the side of the bridge and grinding across them, which is extremely close to a tilted palmtree, so close that you're able to seamlessly grind up the trunk of the tree, and you hit a spring hidden in the tree that takes you to that destination? I know, really out there, but I thought that would be some nice little secrets to expect in a Sonic game, you know? Stuff that makes you think, and rewards you for thinking, rather than punishing you for exploring and using your noodle (I'm talking to you, Nextgen).

The problem with a game just about running is that Sonic loses what made him unique, and he ends up being just your ordinary fast character. It's like you can take Unleashed and remove the rings from the gameplay, and replace Sonic with The Flash and you wouldn't know it wasn't a game for the Flash. That's what I've meant. Sonic needs that something to make him different, and that "something" is rolling, which uses speed and physics together to bring the most enjoyment out of the game. I see Sonic as the simple equation: "Mario + pinball + more action + super speed". If people haven't noticed, that's basically Sonic's gameplay in a nutshell.

[\Lennox]

I believe rails are actually a good thing for the Sonic series, just as long as it's not overused like it has been. Rails are actually physics gimmicks, aren't they? Well, at least the ones in SA2 were. If they could just remain at a minimum and function like they did in SA2, then I don't see a problem with them, especially if they weren't directly the only way through a certain path in a level and just probably a gimmick/easter egg deal. Like, imagine standing on a bridge that is over water or something and you want to find a way to reach a floating platform in the distance. Well, what if there was a way to get there that would take some thinking, like getting on the support fences on the side of the bridge and grinding across them, which is extremely close to a tilted palmtree, so close that you're able to seamlessly grind up the trunk of the tree, and you hit a spring hidden in the tree that takes you to that destination? I know, really out there, but I thought that would be some nice little secrets to expect in a Sonic game, you know? Stuff that makes you think, and rewards you for thinking, rather than punishing you for exploring and using your noodle (I'm talking to you, Nextgen).

The problem with a game just about running is that Sonic loses what made him unique, and he ends up being just your ordinary fast character. It's like you can take Unleashed and remove the rings from the gameplay, and replace Sonic with The Flash and you wouldn't know it wasn't a game for the Flash. That's what I've meant. Sonic needs that something to make him different, and that "something" is rolling, which uses speed and physics together to bring the most enjoyment out of the game. I see Sonic as the simple equation: "Mario + pinball + more action + super speed". If people haven't noticed, that's basically Sonic's gameplay in a nutshell.

Well, SEGA can make the rails much less frequent, and I say that they be used to create multiple paths! Remember the Genesis games when there were certain routes to a single Act? Well they should bring that back. Oh, and of course more platforming. Too much speed's used nowadays. Could it be for the so-called impatient little things called children? Guess what, I AM one and I love platforming.

Well here's what I want.

1. Speed Boosts. I liked the fact that the Rush series actually added Speed Boosts and the fact that we had to use them strategically. Sometimes, whenever I play Rush Adventure, I keep falling in Coral Cave and Blizzard Peaks because I may've over used it. Also, They cannot be used whenever going on the springs, making it harder to go higher in certain stages. Gravity can also affect them, like whenever you have to boost uphill, making it a little slower, while downhill makes it a hell of a lot faster. Blend that with platforming and add that to more stages and you've got yourself a Sonic game with good difficulty!

2. More snowboard/skateboard stages. I like the fact that most of Blizzard Peaks's first act had a 'fucking ton of snowboarding to it, at least before arriving at the goal. I pretty much replayed City Escape just to skateboard over and over again. Maybe SEGA can make the snowboards more frequent, and longer-lasting in not just icy Zones but in other stages? Maybe like cities, as well as areas that are a little more muddy. Speaking of which, is it possibly to sandboard? Hopefully Sonic Team does that in a future Sonic game. Besides, snowboarding had a very high awesome quotient for me in the Sonic series.

[Phos]

Here's my view on grinding rails: they were interesting enough for one level. Them continuing to appear after City Escape is similar to if those pulley things from Mushroom Hill were to show up in every level of of every game.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Phos

[azoo]

I'm okay for them to appear a good one or two times a game, but the way every Sonic game since SA2 has done it (at least one giant rail that makes a part of the main path in every single level) is absolutely annoying. It could at best be a city-stage specific gimmick, and they could just leave it at that (unless if they actually have something unique to do with it).

[Octarine]

Rails should definitely be restricted mostly to city or industrial levels. I don't mind them much, but they're often very out of place... Frog Forest was the worst for that, with those goddamn vines.

I have to say, though, I much prefer grind rails in Shadow and later games to the way they appeared in SA2 and Heroes. The gravity-based idea was fitting, I guess, but the mechanics were pretty difficult to deal with. One of the few things I think Shadow got absolutely right was its streamlining and refining of the rail mechanics... it made them less interesting, maybe, but they were a lot less finnicky.

Even though I sort of like rails, I don't think anyone wants too many more entirely rail-based levels like Rail Canyon. Even if the rails in Heroes had worked decently, that'd still be too much.

[Solid SOAP]

Pretty much the Sonic Unleashed daytime levels with more gimmicks (Like bobsledding and freefalling), more seperate paths, and more gameplay variety. That's all I want, honestly.

[Badnik Zero]

Rails are interesting, because they're not a bad idea. I just think they're easily screwed up. SA2's rails were the best for me, because there was precision involved in riding them. Final Rush was the payoff for that precision, and I like that feeling from a game, where you know you've become good at something. Heroes made it so you just stood on them, made them wider. Then instead of crouching, they did that spin on the rails thing which just looks dumb as you're forced to spam it. So I'd really like my precision rails back. It's not the spinball physics I miss, but there was a system there. As for their frequency, I don't mind the levels based on them, they're only annoying when they show up in each section of the game. Final Rush was a great way to use them, because a last level needs a difficult gimmick. It doesn't need to be a space level, but I agree rails should stay industrial. I enjoyed the literal train rail theme (Rail Canyon, Bullet Station) they had in Heroes, even if I don't like the system. Those blue and red track switches were awesome. I like to compare them to those zoom tubes from the 8-bit games. They're not mazes, but you get on one and ride it to where it leaves you. You can switch rails too and take a different path, which is just like the zoom tube.

Edited December 22, 2009 by Cupcake Hedgehog

[JezMM]

They're not mazes, but you get on one and ride it to where it leaves you. You can switch rails too and take a different path, which is just like the zoom tube.

Never thought of them that way - that's awesome. They should definitely use them like that more often in the future.

[azoo]

I decided to take some inspiration from Indigo's gameplay setup, so I'll post this here now.

(Xbox 360 Controller for reference)

Left Stick - Run

Right Stick - Camera

A Button - Spin Jump / Air Slash

B / X Button - Crouch / Roll

Y Button - Action

Bumpers & Triggers - Rotate Camera

Running top speed, acceleration, cornering, etc. is verbatim to Sonic Adventure, but modified to where the movement isn't nearly as jerky when moving at fast speeds. Jumping mechanics are basically the same as SA1's, except the Homing attack / Jump dash has been replaced with the Air slash (aka the Instashield from Sonic 3). This version of the Air slash blocks off enemy attacks (and repels projectiles back at enemies), gives Sonic a partially wider attack range when jumping for a good split-second, and also works as a mini-double-jump. This mini-double-jump, while not nearly as effective as the powerup double jump you get with the Lightning Shield, could help you at times of trouble whenever you misfired a jump towards a platform or an enemy. Of course, whenever you get one of the Elemental Shields (Pyro, Aqua or Lightning) the Air slash is replaced with the ability that comes with the shield (Lightning = much bigger double jump, Pyro = air boost ala Sonic Unleashed, Aqua = bound attack ala SA2).

When stationary, pressing the crouch button(s) makes Sonic, you guessed it, crouch. However, pressing forward on the L Stick makes Sonic start to automatically charge the Spindash in that direction. Tapping the L Stick in that direction charges it even more, just like the olden days. Letting go of the crouch position sends Sonic rolling at high speeds, although letting physics handle the rest of the movement. When moving, pressing the crouch button sends Sonic into a roll, converting whatever speed he gained when running into rolling form. Sonic's speed in rolling mode is based around inertia and a faster, more streamline type of pinball physics. Since when rolling Sonic is busy keeping rolled up in a ball, Sonic's cornering is tighter and stiffer than ordinary cornering.

Level design would be branching and open, and consists mostly of platforming and occasionally extreme speed sections, along with crazy level geometry like loops and slopes and hills, etc. etc. etc. and level specific gimmicks (some of which could be activated with the Y Button). Levels would be highly explorable and have tons of little extra routes and secrets, and there would be classic badniks all over the stages, along with Eggman awaiting you at the end of each stage with a loony new gadget add-on to his Eggmobile. Loops and such of that matter would be set up to where the path is automated, but the direction you move in it and the speed you go in it, so it could keep the interactivity of the loops in the classics, yet still keep the cinematic camera angles of the modern games. Levels would be set up into 3 Acts each, and they would all be very surreal and whimsically cartoony in style. Tails following Sonic. Eggman as the final boss. Pure bliss.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You guys keep steallin mah ideas!

Okay, so I'm gonna steal some of yours...

1. Develop a good formula that works better than the Classics, and give the finger to stubborn fans who condemn any change.

People seriously, even Mario has done it for all you who love to compare the two series. The Classic formula is a great formula, but simply taking it and doing a copy-and-paste job of the same level nearly 2 decades ago is not going to save Sonic in the slightest. I'm not against there being a new 2D game, but that's what it should be: a new 2D game. Not a remake of a past game. Lord knows they've run the Adventure's formula to death, there's no doubt they would likely do the same.

However, there are times where a change or improvement is in order. This logic of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is what will keep the games in a single monotonous state that is devoid of anything new, and I certainly am not a fan of that type of thinking. A game is made to be fun, and if the same mechanics get old and tiring, say using Super Sonic's ability to ram into enemies who decide to go "Hey, here's my weak spot. Try and hit it!" (and I'd already say it's in that state right now) improve it to make it more fun and entertaining. It's not about what Sonic needs to do in the game, it's about how you can continually make Sonic more fun while still maintaining his image.

2. Improve and Alternate characters

First things first, and I'm going to be blunt, NO Classic Trio. None of it, zippo, zilch, nada, zero...okay, maybe a few times. But while the focus is on Sonic and Eggman (or whoever the other villian may be for better or worse), no character is anymore important than the other. Tails almost gets excluded, as he is a very mallable character who can be put anywhere like Sonic, but other than that alternate the characters.

This wall of Classic and New characters needs to be blown up with a thermonuclear warhead and I would love nothing more than to be the one to deliver that nuke with my personal feelings on this barrier between the characters who are placed on this untouchable godly pedestal while others are treated as dirt. When it comes to the Sonic series cast, THEY ALL SUCK: From Sonic to Silver, every character needs some improvement, and it's that lack of it that is what is causing them to be shitty it the first place.

So instead of it always being Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, and Eggman, why not have Sonic, Shadow, Knuckles, Blaze, Amy, and Eggman (like they sort of did in SATBK?). Or Sonic, Charmy, Silver, Rouge, and Eggman? With the cast we have now, we can do so many things with the series.

To cut it short, don't use characters because they're popular or because they came first. If they could serve better in a different game, it would be best to leave them out where they are doing weak in.

3. Don't jump off the cliff with ideas.

And when I say this, don't just get an idea of Sonic being a werehog and role with it. Or get an idea of the Sonic characters suddenly using foul languange and expect the fans to be cool with it. If you're going to introduce new ideas, think of how to implement them with what the series is known for. If you want gunplay in the series, think about how to do that while moving around the stage in the fashion that they do. Think of ways that it could be fun and welcoming instead of being a pain in the ass and out of place.

I think this all speaks for itself really

4. Character interaction and personalities

With a cast as big as this series, I think speaking to each other would show much greater interaction among the characters than no dialogue. I don't care how golden silence is or how loud actions speak, there are many places where speaking could actually let the player follow what's going on. In fact, I think it would be contradictory to a character as energetic and risky as Sonic should be made as a silent protagonist. Someone who treats every little threat as a game is surely going to let it be known as he makes fun of the person dealing the threat with words. And if anything, the words can show more of how the character is feeling than no words at all.

Shadow could be cold and unimpressed by the way his posture is, but he could say something under his breath that completely says something else, something that shows that he was impressed, but he's not going to let others (except the player) know. OR Sonic could look excited about something, when he could be saying under his breath "This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of" and intentionally contradict the feeling he is showing.

5. Surprise us

I love it when something I didn't expect would happen. Say a heroic character actually becomes the games primary antagonist, or the main hero Sonic actually has a weakness that can break him and temporarily transform his personality into something we would not ever expect of him. How about the villian actually winning for once and the threats now escalate into a much graver situation?

This is really all in the imagination, so I can't be too bugged to think of much at this point...yet.

6. Eggman in control

I don't care how many beasts he has to unearth, but it's getting old in how this guy is always (literally) slapped out of the picture as the villian. I'd like Eggman to actually plan ahead of these misfirings and regain control of the situation if it so much as inches out of his hand.

That's all I have for now.

[Mort]

Some great ideas in this thread.