Could Tails and Eggman potentially be friends?

[Blazey Firekitty]

Heh, I'm kind of getting two different views on Eggman from two different people, but they still seem to fit the character's "manchild" personality quite nicely.^^

From Mechano's post, I get an image of Robotnik as being someone whose anger towards people exists very much "in the now." While they are a threat to what he wants, he will react violently, possibly with lethal force. But as soon as they aren't bothering him, he can be sincerely friendly towards them again.

Kintobor's post gives me the image of the doctor as someone who tends to hold grudges, but in a rather simple, childish way. If you've wronged him, he'll pout about it for a long time, but if you can impress him enough, it might not be too hard to gain his trust back.

Oh, and in regards to Flyboy's post...I'll agree, Tails did seem a bit too quick to trust Eggman in Chronicles. Perhaps the fun and excitement of getting to be the leader of the protagonists went to his head a little bit, and Tails became kind of overoptimistic.^_~

[Phos]

Considering what Robotnik does to forest animals, it would be rather inconsistent of him to think of Tails differently than a trapper might think of a beaver, or perhaps even as some kind of vandal animal, like a bear might destroy a trap for some reason.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Considering what Robotnik does to forest animals, it would be rather inconsistent of him to think of Tails differently than a trapper might think of a beaver, or perhaps even as some kind of vandal animal, like a bear might destroy a trap for some reason.

You're right that stuffing animals into Badniks isn't a nice thing to do, but I'm not sure that means that Robotnik views Tails as a non-sentient being. After all, you don't have conversations with the beavers you trap.^_~

[Dr. Mechano]

Considering what Robotnik does to forest animals, it would be rather inconsistent of him to think of Tails differently than a trapper might think of a beaver, or perhaps even as some kind of vandal animal, like a bear might destroy a trap for some reason.

Whether it's a valid belief or not, Eggman probably sees the small animals as "lower" lifeforms compared to humans and anthropomorphic animals. He seems to hold humans and anthropomorphic animals on the same level (That is, he's better than everyone from both groups and aims to conquer everyone accordingly).

But conquest is not the same thing as trapping someone and using them as a living power source for your robots, which probably doesn't even work with full-sized humanized animals. The concept's never been explored, except for SatAM/Archie's "robotization", which is a different thing altogether.

[Blazey Firekitty]

But conquest is not the same thing as trapping someone and using them as a living power source for your robots, which probably doesn't even work with full-sized humanized animals.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that the brains of characters like Sonic and Tails are too complex to remain dormant while within a Badnik. It would likely be impossible for the robot to function properly.

[batson]

Personally, i think it's very possible that out of Eggmans many opponents, Tails is actually the one he has the most respect for. Because it seems to me that if it's one thing Eggman genunely loves besides power, its science and technology, and he seems to have genunine respect for scientific knowledge and achievements, and also for intelligence in general (just think about how much of his adoration for his grandfather seems to stem from the fact that Gerald was a true genius and an amazing scientist). So Eggman is probably bound to be quite impressed by an 8-year old that can build a transforming mech.

Doesn't Eggman actually complements Tails on one of his gadgets in Chronicles?

[Phos]

You're right that stuffing animals into Badniks isn't a nice thing to do, but I'm not sure that means that Robotnik views Tails as a non-sentient being. After all, you don't have conversations with the beavers you trap.^_~

Whether it's a valid belief or not, Eggman probably sees the small animals as "lower" lifeforms compared to humans and anthropomorphic animals. He seems to hold humans and anthropomorphic animals on the same level (That is, he's better than everyone from both groups and aims to conquer everyone accordingly).

But conquest is not the same thing as trapping someone and using them as a living power source for your robots, which probably doesn't even work with full-sized humanized animals. The concept's never been explored, except for SatAM/Archie's "robotization", which is a different thing altogether.

The Sonic Screensaver also contains images of the critters flying planes, sailing, and partaking in space travel.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Why does Sonic own a pink computer and phone?

Personally, i think it's very possible that out of Eggmans many opponents, Tails is actually the one he has the most respect for. Because it seems to me that if it's one thing Eggman genunely loves besides power, its science and technology, and he seems to have genunine respect for scientific knowledge and achievements...

Doesn't Eggman actually complements Tails on one of his gadgets in Chronicles?

He does indeed.

But I'd throw out sycophantic compliments too, if I was surrounded by all of my greatest enemies at once and they could curl up into living buzz-saws.

Tails could clearly become friends with Eggman, because... well, he does in Chronicles, with his "OMG I can't wait to tell Eggman about tis!" regarding the Nocturnus signal-jammer on Voxai Beta. Exactly why Tails thinks it's a good idea to hand technical knowledge over to the man who kidnapped him in Crystal Egg and keeps trying to kill him every other adventure is perhaps a point which calls into question the fox's character judgement, but... hey, he's eight years old, and his best friend's a homeless vagrant with a permanent caffine rush. So we knew Tails wasn't all that selective about his BFFs already.

Robotnik, on the other hand, shoots Tails down at the end. So if he does that to the person he most respects, then... well, I don't think it can really be called "friendship".

Edited November 19, 2009 by Frozen Nitrogen

[Phos]

Why does Sonic own a pink computer and phone?

When I first saw them I assumed they were public devices or something. That, or he borrowed Amy's.

[SchemingMinor]

Why does Sonic own a pink computer and phone?

but... hey, he's eight years old, and his best friend's a homeless vagrant with a permanent caffine rush. So we knew Tails wasn't all that selective about his BFFs already.

The proper term that they prefer to be called by, are "drifters".

But that piqued my curiosity why a two-tailed fox would cream his pants over every new opportunity to tell Robotnik about the weird and wonderful technological gadgets he had seen upon his travels, despite the fact that both have been butting heads (or "playing" as Eggman would like to put it in a mental fashion) for nearly over seventeen years game chronicle time.

Tails comes across as a desperate and lonely little boy on an communicative intelligence level, it appears, when you want to even invite your nemesis on a social and verbal party line.

[DaBatGuy]

Tails comes across as a desperate and lonely little boy on an communicative intelligence level, it appears, when you want to even invite your nemesis on a social and verbal party line.

Very true, I've noticed that as much as Tails looks up to Sonic as a brother and a role model their relationship is somewhat lacking due to the fact hat they don't totally connect on an intellectual level. Sonic (and almost the entire cast for that matter) tend to causally ignore him and his ideas and wisdom until he's needed to whip up a new funky gadget. Any attempt to explain his devices are usually answered with blanket comments of praise("Good job, Tails.", "You're so smart, Tails!") or awkward silence with confused smiles and polite nodding.

It actually seems like when Sonic over indulges in his love of freedom Tails finds himself an accomplished study buddy to take his place like Dr. Madden or Prof. Pickle from Chronicles and Unleashed respectively. He is a technological genius at heart and considering the attitude of his allies at times I can see him somewhat sympathizing with Eggman's plight as a genius whose brilliance is under-appreciated. Even in other continuities he tends to really enjoy the company of other eccentric, misunderstood/disowned geniuses like prof. Von Shlemer, Uncle Chuck, Nate Morgan, and Chuck Thorndyke. It's a shame that they're always grizzled old guys... you can make your own joke from that.

Looking deeper into this relationship shows that in someways Sonic may have outlived his usefulnes to Tails. He needed Sonic as a child to teach him morals, courage, speed, etc. but now Tails has shown that he can use the responsibly and independently. He's learned everything he can from the blue guy and though he still loves and respects him, Tails feels he needs a mentor and a friend that can contect with him in the one way Sonic couldn't.

[Phos]

Sonic at least know enough about mechanics to maintain the Tornado. Airplanes, especially piston engine planes, especially old ones are going to need frequent maintenance. In the OVA, even Knuckles was helping fix the Tornado. Pretty impressive, Aluminum isn't easy to weld. Tails was also unbelievably cute with his flight helmet on. There's a moment where I swear he was posing for an avatar.

[batson]

The Sonic Screensaver also contains images of the critters flying planes, sailing, and partaking in space travel.

My own belief regarding whether the animals Eggman enslaved in the classic games were sentient or not is that, et least back then, they were indeed sentient. As in, that's how the guys who made the games saw it. Since their main hero was an obviously sentient hedgehog, i see no reason why they wouldnt consider the other critters in the games as being the same. The animals that Eggman stuffed inside robots were probably just meant to be typical cartoony "funny animal" characters just like Sonic, Tails, Knuckles ect.

However, since games since SA have shown these animals as being mute and seeminly lacking any anthropomorphic features other than somehwat expressive eyes, it think its safe to say that these days, they are considered non-sentient (this is made especially obvious in Chronicles). Which in turn would probably "ret-con" away the sentience of the animals in the older games (meaning that today, if you want to consider the entire Sonic series as taking place in the same continuity, you probably have to accept the idea that Eggman have never turned sentient animals into robots... regardless of how much cooler that would have made him...).

[Flyboy Fox]

It always seemed to me that those critters were meant to be sentient and sorta the 'everyday woodland citizens' of Sonic's world. Weren't they referred to as being Sonic's friends? Also, the fact that Sonic's contempories in SatAM (Sally etc) were based on these creatures adds basis to that. There's a definite line drawn now between 'animals' as we're used to in our world and the human-like Sonic animal cast, but I don't think it's always been so black and white.

[Dr. Mechano]

It always seemed to me that those critters were meant to be sentient and sorta the 'everyday woodland citizens' of Sonic's world. Weren't they referred to as being Sonic's friends?

There are many real-life people who consider animals their friends, all sentience issues aside. The only time one such animal played a major role in a game's plot was Sonic Adventure, where Amy gives the apparently-nameless Flickey a name ("Birdy"); This isn't something people typically do to other people, as choosing names for equally-sentient beings you just met seems rather patronizing, doesn't it? Said Flickey does not display any capability for speech, and in general behaves like an animal.

The only hint at higher thought processing is that the Flickey is lugging around a big photograph of itself and two other Flickies, but there's no real evidence he took said picture with- one must presume- a giant (from his perspective) camera. We don't know who took the photo or who gave him the Chaos Emerald-containing locket, given his animalistic behavior otherwise, it seems like a stretch to assume he did it.

Oh right, and Froggy. He was a rather ordinary frog too, yet Big considers him his best friend, so there you go.

Also, the fact that Sonic's contempories in SatAM (Sally etc) were based on these creatures adds basis to that.

Not really. Being the loose adaptation that it was, the choices SatAM made do not reflect on the original game series. It should be noted that, based on them though they may have been, these characters were heavily anthropomorphized for their appearance and were effectively different characters altogether, making their inspiration from the small animals all but irrelevant with all the creative liberties the show took.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Dr. Mechano

[Blazey Firekitty]

The Japanese manual for Sonic 2 states that the animals of West Island gave Tails his nickname. This, along with the presence of small animals(Including a group of Flickies who help Tails rescue Sonic) in-game ending, suggests that Tails knew small animals who were sentient.

Admittedly, this isn't set in stone. The manual text is ambiguous, saying merely "animals" and not clearly stating what specific animals it is referring to, and Sonic Adventure may have retconned this particular part of the story away, like what happened with Amy's age.

Edited November 19, 2009 by BlazeyBakeneko

[Flyboy Fox]

I think they're sentient. I feel like, despite their artistic differences, they were intended to be Sonic's peers. Like that art shows, they're doing things that require sentience.

[psikeout]

Do we think they're sentient or sapient? Some would argue that real animals are sentient, but just not sapient. As far as the "small animals" in the Sonic series go, though, I would personally say they're both, based on stuff people have already brought up, as well as Tails Adventure. I could be remembering completely incorrectly, but wasn't it a Flicky or other little bird that actually told Tails about the invaders?

[Blazey Firekitty]

Do we think they're sentient or sapient? Some would argue that real animals are sentient, but just not sapient. As far as the "small animals" in the Sonic series go, though, I would personally say they're both, based on stuff people have already brought up, as well as Tails Adventure. I could be remembering completely incorrectly, but wasn't it a Flicky or other little bird that actually told Tails about the invaders?

You're right, it is a Flicky that warns Tails in Tails Adventure, in both the Japanese and Western versions of the story.

You also have a point about the vocabulary we've been using. We've been using "sentient" when we really mean "sapient." Sentient simply means that a life-form is self-aware, that it has a conscious mind. Sapient refers to possessing human intelligence.

[Flyboy Fox]

I dunno, maybe I did mean sentient. To me, sapient requires a human-like mind. But sentient can be less than that yet still self-aware... perhaps to the extent that, say, chao are usually shown. They seem to have a limited sentience, but I wouldn't necessarily call them sapient.

[Phos]

There are many real-life people who consider animals their friends, all sentience issues aside. The only time one such animal played a major role in a game's plot was Sonic Adventure, where Amy gives the apparently-nameless Flickey a name ("Birdy"); This isn't something people typically do to other people, as choosing names for equally-sentient beings you just met seems rather patronizing, doesn't it? Said Flickey does not display any capability for speech, and in general behaves like an animal.

The only hint at higher thought processing is that the Flickey is lugging around a big photograph of itself and two other Flickies, but there's no real evidence he took said picture with- one must presume- a giant (from his perspective) camera. We don't know who took the photo or who gave him the Chaos Emerald-containing locket, given his animalistic behavior otherwise, it seems like a stretch to assume he did it.

Oh right, and Froggy. He was a rather ordinary frog too, yet Big considers him his best friend, so there you go.

Look, you can't just ignore the picture from the screen saver because they aren't conducive your own interpretation of Sonic's world or your own paradigm of Robotnik's character.

Not really. Being the loose adaptation that it was, the choices SatAM made do not reflect on the original game series. It should be noted that, based on them though they may have been, these characters were heavily anthropomorphized for their appearance and were effectively different characters altogether, making their inspiration from the small animals all but irrelevant with all the creative liberties the show took.

And yet, you seem to believe that the Eggman from the Sonic X comic is the most representative version of the character, particularly in terms of motivation and moral standards.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I dunno, maybe I did mean sentient. To me, sapient requires a human-like mind. But sentient can be less than that yet still self-aware... perhaps to the extent that, say, chao are usually shown. They seem to have a limited sentience, but I wouldn't necessarily call them sapient.

That makes sense. There appears to be evidence that the "small animals" are intelligent, but just how intelligent is left kind of vague.

Look, you can't just ignore the picture from the screen saver because they aren't conducive your own interpretation of Sonic's world or your own paradigm of Robotnik's character.

And yet, you seem to believe that the Eggman from the Sonic X comic is the most representative version of the character, particularly in terms of motivation and moral standards.

While game Eggman isn't quite as nice as any version of Sonic X Eggman, I wouldn't say, from my point of view, at least, that Mechano is completely off when it comes to his assessment of SegaSonic Eggman's character. Whether or not Eggman put sentient beings into Badniks is somewhat debatable, but the notion of Robotnik having redeeming qualities has a been a part of the character since Sonic Adventure 2. Granted, he didn't stop doing bad things after he found out about Gerald's plot to kill everyone, but, in my opinion, there is a heart in there somewhere.

[SchemingMinor]

And yet, you seem to believe that the Eggman from the Sonic X comic is the most representative version of the character, particularly in terms of motivation and moral standards.

It's the closest we have seen of a consistent Robotnik figure over the years that resembles a game version. Technically speaking that while the games themselves are notorious of not keeping their characterizations or stories straight ( a best example of this is the Chocola retcon from Heroes,)to say that game Robotnik doesn't have a gentle side would be a short-sighted understatement, because he does. The comics brought out the level of simple childishness on a motivated and moral level, something that the main comic series seems to strike out with their own techno-genocidal madman comma SatAM incarnate (thankfully the intensity of it has waned over the years.)

But to say that Robotnik is all about vomiting rainbows and hugging flowers is also something that must not be taken worth it's weight, since the man is indeed a villain ( well, he was going to be originally a hero, but we will ignore that for now.) Sonic 2006 does bring out a cold side to the man, one that seems inviting but distant, but you can also chalk it up to the flux of different writers that they had over the span of a couple of years. Robotnik does have his weight worth in gold correlating to the bad deeds he is known for, but the drive behind them besides the cliched "wanting to rule the world" are only a guess right now among the fanbase.

Personally I would have to say for its playfulness and mirth, Sonic X the comic had deeper tones behind the kiddie-fashioned panels that underlie Robotnik's morality. While it is close to what we have currently seen in the games, X comic Robotnik is a shade lighter than his game counterpart.

[Core]

Technically speaking that while the games themselves are notorious of not keeping their characterizations or stories straight ( a best example of this is the Chocola retcon from Heroes,)to say that game Robotnik doesn't have a gentle side would be a short-sighted understatement, because he does.

What's the Chocola retcon?

[SchemingMinor]

What's the Chocola retcon?

Chocola hasn't appeared in a game since and just disappeared into thin air with no explanation.

Actually, now that I think of it, it's more of a plothole.