IDW Sonic is now canon

[Zaysho]

3 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

It's not really the stakes I have a problem with, it's the attitude...or rather, the emphasis over Shadow being stubborn and stupid rather than pragmatic. Much like how they once portrayed Knuckles.

None of Shadow's pride prevents him from being pragmatic--I figured the Ultimate Lifeform would be at least intelligent and resourceful as he boasts his pride to show off what a badass he is rather than be insulted because someone gave him useful advice. Sorry, but his actions in the Metal Virus arc really left an absolute sour taste in my mouth over how they're handling him.

As someone who was massively critical of that part of the story, I kinda came around to accepting that attitude does work for Shadow. The real problem is there's no meaningful follow-up for him to actually learn or develop as a character because "haha funny book mascot." I don't blame Flynn for just writing him off as a zombie or putting Shadow on the backburner entirely at this point if Sega is gonna be weird about the character.

My personal preference for Shadow in the context of this book/universe would have been for Sonic to just make him leave the city right then and there (though iirc Sonic was forced to retreat because the virus was spreading so it'd require the plot to be rewritten I guess) and they're both forced to work together because they're fast enough to handle the immediate effects of the virus. Would also have worked better to have the two work out their differences that the comic laid out in Shadow's debut instead of the constantly forced drama the book loves bringing up every six months where someone has to point fingers at Sonic for something that isn't really his fault.

 

In any case, I'm not too worried about Shadow making an appearance in the games with this in mind anyway because Sonic Team/Sega aren't even consistent with the rules they make up for the comics anyway (just look at how Forces handled him).

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

21 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

As someone who was massively critical of that part of the story, I kinda came around to accepting that attitude does work for Shadow. The real problem is there's no meaningful follow-up for him to actually learn or develop as a character because "haha funny book mascot." I don't blame Flynn for just writing him off as a zombie or putting Shadow on the backburner entirely at this point if Sega is gonna be weird about the character.

My personal preference for Shadow in the context of this book/universe would have been for Sonic to just make him leave the city right then and there (though iirc Sonic was forced to retreat because the virus was spreading so it'd require the plot to be rewritten I guess) and they're both forced to work together because they're fast enough to handle the immediate effects of the virus. Would also have worked better to have the two work out their differences that the comic laid out in Shadow's debut instead of the constantly forced drama the book loves bringing up every six months where someone has to point fingers at Sonic for something that isn't really his fault.

In any case, I'm not too worried about Shadow making an appearance in the games with this in mind anyway because Sonic Team/Sega aren't even consistent with the rules they make up for the comics anyway.

The funny thing about that is, I'm not against having Shadow be prideful and stubborn, or doing this his own way. I'm not even against him being zombified thinking he might've been immune.

Just that...he was literally told by Sonic "Hey! Don't touch the Zombots, or you'll risk being infected." and then he proceeds to fucking punch the Zombots with his bare hands.

There's smug pride before getting humbled, and then there's stupid pride despite being smart enough to know better. Shadow always struck me as the latter, not taking unnecessary risks, but not afraid to get smug and dirty when there's no other choice. But thanks to Sega getting in the way he was written as the former.

And don't get me wrong, I get that there were so many factors at play that Ian went with the best outcome he could despite it not going well--really, Sega should've just kept their hands off that part and let Ian go along with his idea of Shadow decoupling his limters, blasting through the Zombots and then have Shadow be exhausted to where he got zombified. It would've went much smoother that way--Shadow could still go "Cowards don't run" and continue fighting, and it would've gotten the same exact result without making Shadow look stupid in the process.

My anger is really more with Sega over this than anything, and is why they need to let go of that leash on Ian. He knows these characters far better than even they do--and they never forced Shadow to be that stupid before!!!!!!!

[Zaysho]

10 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

My anger is really more with Sega over this than anything, and is why they need to let go of that leash on Ian. He knows these characters far better than even they do--and they never forced Shadow to be that stupid before!!!!!!!

Yeah, I don't disagree. Just saying I have less of an issue with his actions there now (and admittedly this comes largely with me not giving as much of a shit about the IDW comic anymore) and that the problem is that they don't follow it up or have the consequences of his actions lead to any reflection or growth. Would at least make it easier to accept when he does something stupid.

[Kuzu]

41 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

The funny thing about that is, I'm not against having Shadow be prideful and stubborn, or doing this his own way. I'm not even against him being zombified thinking he might've been immune.

Just that...he was literally told by Sonic "Hey! Don't touch the Zombots, or you'll risk being infected." and then he proceeds to fucking punch the Zombots with his bare hands.

There's smug pride before getting humbled, and then there's stupid pride despite being smart enough to know better. Shadow always struck me as the latter, not taking unnecessary risks, but not afraid to get smug and dirty when there's no other choice. But thanks to Sega getting in the way he was written as the former.

And don't get me wrong, I get that there were so many factors at play that Ian went with the best outcome he could despite it not going well--really, Sega should've just kept their hands off that part and let Ian go along with his idea of Shadow decoupling his limters, blasting through the Zombots and then have Shadow be exhausted to where he got zombified. It would've went much smoother that way--Shadow could still go "Cowards don't run" and continue fighting, and it would've gotten the same exact result without making Shadow look stupid in the process.

My anger is really more with Sega over this than anything, and is why they need to let go of that leash on Ian. He knows these characters far better than even they do--and they never forced Shadow to be that stupid before!!!!!!!

As much as we would all love for Ian to have full creative control, that's simply not how it works with a licensed product.

Ian only got away with it before because Sega did not care about the comics whatsoever and just turned a blind eye to them.

Now that they're directly involved, Ian had to abide by their guidelines no matter how much he may disagree with them.

 

I have no idea what arbitrary guidelines Sega have for Shadow, but its Ian's job to navigate that and produce something out of it. Sometimes it works and sometimes we get...this.

 

 

But I'm fairly certain Ian is brainstorming a way to utilize Shadow under this new format. He's aware how badly people want to see him.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Really, it's not even the matter of control to be honest. It mostly Sega not being consistent.

Game Shadow--Takes off power rings to boost himself as he fight hordes of enemies from overpowering him.

Sega: Acceptable.

IDW Shadow--Takes off power rings to boost himself as he fights hordes of enemies from overpowering him.

Sega: Nah, fam. You can't do that. Shadow has to fight powerful enemies.

Ian (probably) and Me:

Ian--Changes IDW Shadow to Punch Zombots with bare hands.

Sega: Perfect.

Me:

[Darkvizardberrytan]

I swear the amount of people that act as if Shadow somehow carries this series. Even the thread about the books being canon now are people bringing up something that happened how many years ago? Even then it was Shadow just being prideful characters can have some flaws at times though Ian admitted he had to sorta write him like that. Though atm I am mostly just enjoying and baffled how some young rabid fans are upset and trying to find loopholes on twitter about this.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Bro...what are you even talking about?

[Kuzu]

15 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Really, it's not even the matter of control to be honest. It mostly Sega not being consistent.

Game Shadow--Takes off power rings to boost himself as he fight hordes of enemies from overpowering him.

Sega: Acceptable.

IDW Shadow--Takes off power rings to boost himself as he fights hordes of enemies from overpowering him.

Sega: Nah, fam. You can't do that. Shadow has to fight powerful enemies.

Ian (probably) and Me:

Ian--Changes IDW Shadow to Punch Zombots with bare hands.

Sega: Perfect.

Me:

Yea, the lack of consistency or even comprehension is the biggest annoyance here. 

We only have Flynn's words to go off of, so nobody can even comprehend why Sega are making these random and arbitrary decisions. 

[Sega DogTagz]

1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

 Sega should've just kept their hands off that part and let Ian go along with his idea of Shadow decoupling his limters, blasting through the Zombots and then have Shadow be exhausted to where he got zombified. It would've went much smoother that way--Shadow could still go "Cowards don't run" and continue fighting, and it would've gotten the same exact result without making Shadow look stupid in the process.

Sounds good on paper. But it would have just created something else for people to complain about. While you dodge him looking foolish for doing the 1 thing Sonic told him not to do, you would instead start getting complaints about how Ian nerfed his power level by allowing him to be overwhelmed in combat.

If people could complain about Shadow not measuring up to Enerjak of all things, you can sure bet Shadow lads would find issue in him not being able to finish off a horde of zombots whom were immune to physical damage. Logic goes right out the window.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

13 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Sounds good on paper. But it would have just created something else for people to complain about. While you dodge him looking foolish for doing the 1 thing Sonic told him not to do, you would instead start getting complaints about how Ian nerfed his power level by allowing him to be overwhelmed in combat.

If people could complain about Shadow not measuring up to Enerjak of all things, you can sure bet Shadow lads would find issue in him not being able to finish off a horde of zombots whom were immune to physical damage. Logic goes right out the window.

I see your point...but that only makes me look at the complaints about Ian nerfing him as dumb, which wouldn't be a surprise.

Plus, I'd have enjoyed putting my foot up the Shadow fanboy's asses complaining and throwing logic out the window, because fuck them. At least if they came here. And I'm saying that as a Shadow fan myself--I want to be known as one the Shadow fans that uses actual sense and logic.

[Kuzu]

Shadow, being among the most popular characters in the series, unfortunately has a very vocal and dumb fanbase that will complain if he's interpreted as anything less than the biggest, most unstoppable badass ever. 

To which I say, who fucking cares about them. Do whatever needs to happen to make for a good story, not to appease a fickle ass fanbase that can't even decide on what it wants.

 

 

In any case, the reason Ian cited as one of his major perceived issues with Shadow is that the character is simply too overpowered and he had to be taken off the board to raise the tension. If there's a scenario where Sonic & Shadow were completely on the same page, there'd be very little that could actually stop them and thus, ruin the tension of the story. 

So Ian kind of had a choice to make; either nerf Shadow to justify him being overwhelmed by the Zombots, or just have him do something stupid to get overwhelmed by the zombots. 

[Sega DogTagz]

12 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

So Ian kind of had a choice to make; either nerf Shadow to justify him being overwhelmed by the Zombots,

See. this. right here.

You don't need to nerf Shadow to make him lose to the Zombots. He could pummel them for days on end until he was blue in the face and they would still regenerate and eventually overwhelm him.

 

Stop being a part of the problem

 

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, Sega DogTagz said:

See. this. right here.

You don't need to nerf Shadow to make him lose to the Zombots. He could pummel them for days on end until he was blue in the face and they would still regenerate and eventually overwhelm him.

Stop being a part of the problem

XD

Yea, but that's not the scenario that was occurring. 

And I'm not saying that's what had to happen, I'm saying that was likely the thought process of the entire thing. 

"I have to remove Shadow from this story to preserve tension" was the immediate question that was addressed, the how or why of it were somewhat secondary at the time. 

 

Y'all gotta keep in mind that not every single plot point is meticulously planned out with precision; sometimes shit just happens because these books have to be written on a monthly basis. 

[Sega DogTagz]

I know, just tusslin your hair a bit.

 

[Kuzu]

In any case, I don't really think it would take much to redeem that moment; Shadow already directly acknowledged that he miscalculated and paid Sonic back for it in the climax of Chao Bases and Chao Races. 

 

But I suppose that's not enough for some people unless Shadow gets some big hero moment. 

[jungle_penguins]

If anyone's a bit confused like me, one of the replies in that hilarious thread is a relevant quote from this article clears part of it up: https://www.sonicstadium.org/2022/08/takashi-iizuka-on-connecting-universes-and-creating-a-unified-sonic-experience-sonic-stadium-interview/

Quote

Takashi Iizuka: Well I think that… even with the [Sonic] Netflix TV show that’s going to be on air soon and the [IDW] comic series… it’s always best having one universe [to connect them]. For the movies though, it’s a little too hard to reasonably incorporate this realistic-looking Sonic, with real human being friends and real planet Earth… all of those things are a bit difficult to put into the games [laughs]! But if we’re talking about the comics, the Netflix series and the games? Moving forward, the idea of trying to get all of them into the same universe – or even if it’s not exactly the same universe, at least having them feel like they’re part of a connected universe – is something that’s very important to us.

If the next game has a completely different writer who unintentionally just nukes comic elements in the story then that'll be an interesting thread.

[batson]

I suppose this is the point where I should start reading the IDW comics if I still want to consider myself an expert at the Sonic video game universe. Dammit, that's a hell of a lot of catching up to do.

[Zoomzeta]

On 11/29/2022 at 8:19 PM, DaBigJ said:

What did Belle do wrong

Existed I guess? 

On 11/30/2022 at 3:53 AM, Shaddy Zaphod said:

Nothing to be upset about, but I kinda figured we were headed this direction. I doubt we'll be seeing huge story or character overlap from the comics to the games unless SEGA really wants Tangle and Whisper for something, but I'm glad to see it nonetheless. I hope this opens up some doors for either the comics or the games to tie in old and new plot elements, even just minor ones.

Also, complaining about Shadow because of this is silly. Not only has he sucked on the games for years anyway, but if you thought he was somehow better there than whatever SEGA wanted him to be in the comics, there's no reason to assume those comics being canon is going to impose that version onto the games. Either it'll get better or stay the same as before.

Or they just won't use him at all. The comics, not the games necessarily. 

On 11/30/2022 at 4:37 PM, Razule said:

I'm curious how long this will be sustainable. The games are going to keep doing whatever they want, and the comics have to follow suit. Eventually primary media overrides whatever expanded universe material there is. Unless Sonic Team is even more mindful of the comics than I thought and are going to be specifically watching out to not contradict them.

So, like before with Archie? 

On 11/30/2022 at 8:28 PM, Kuzu said:

As much as we would all love for Ian to have full creative control, that's simply not how it works with a licensed product.

Ian only got away with it before because Sega did not care about the comics whatsoever and just turned a blind eye to them.

Now that they're directly involved, Ian had to abide by their guidelines no matter how much he may disagree with them.

I have no idea what arbitrary guidelines Sega have for Shadow, but its Ian's job to navigate that and produce something out of it. Sometimes it works and sometimes we get...this.

But I'm fairly certain Ian is brainstorming a way to utilize Shadow under this new format. He's aware how badly people want to see him.

Umm...We do know how he's presently navigating those guidelines. By not using him. 

9 hours ago, batson said:

I suppose this is the point where I should start reading the IDW comics if I still want to consider myself an expert at the Sonic video game universe. Dammit, that's a hell of a lot of catching up to do.

Good luck

[Zoomzeta]

Well, if we are now going into this that IDW comics are considered canon to the mainline games, it's probably going to take a while before we reach a post-Frontiers time period.

Most of the comics thus far occur in the aftermath of Forces, starting from that point and developing characters and storylines from there. Right now, there isn't any indication anything is changing immediately, but, most likely down the line, steps will be taken to ease in the comics into the timeframe where Frontiers occurs. 

[Razule]

31 minutes ago, Zoomzeta said:

So, like before with Archie? 

Similar, but the relationship between SEGA and IDW is evidently a lot closer.

[Darkvizardberrytan]

12 hours ago, Zoomzeta said:

Well, if we are now going into this that IDW comics are considered canon to the mainline games, it's probably going to take a while before we reach a post-Frontiers time period.

Most of the comics thus far occur in the aftermath of Forces, starting from that point and developing characters and storylines from there. Right now, there isn't any indication anything is changing immediately, but, most likely down the line, steps will be taken to ease in the comics into the timeframe where Frontiers occurs. 

We are WAY past post forces stuff at this point. Even the tie in comic could fit in place easily after this next arc with whisper

[Zoomzeta]

2 hours ago, Darkvizardberrytan said:

We are WAY past post forces stuff at this point. Even the tie in comic could fit in place easily after this next arc with whisper

All I'm saying is that we have no way of knowing how close to parity the comics are to the events Frontiers right now. 

[Red Hot Jack]

On 12/1/2022 at 3:07 AM, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Bro...what are you even talking about?

To be fair, I remember the IDW thread was crowded for months talking about the morality plot between Sonic and Shadow, that made it actually look like the comic WAS carried by Shadow. Twitter too, of course.

And I agree, that stuff (especially issue 19) happened years ago, apparently Ian said there is a NDA that revolves around Shadow... maybe things are changing with SEGA and his characterization, I sure hope so!

[Zoomzeta]

11 hours ago, Red Hot Jack said:

To be fair, I remember the IDW thread was crowded for months talking about the morality plot between Sonic and Shadow, that made it actually look like the comic WAS carried by Shadow. Twitter too, of course.

And I agree, that stuff (especially issue 19) happened years ago, apparently Ian said there is a NDA that revolves around Shadow... maybe things are changing with SEGA and his characterization, I sure hope so!

An NDA? What for? 

Also add a source regarding that, out of curiosity of course. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Zoomzeta

[JezMM]

I'm happy, but it would be nice to keep things concrete if that's what we're doing.  I'd like to know where Frontiers fits in if the IDW Comics aren't going to cover it (and I would rather they didn't - I'm fine with a short time skip and "play Sonic Frontiers to find out what happened here!" than seeing the story get retold with abridged or contradicting elements).  IDW already skipped over TSR which is now indisputably canon, and they already assume the reader knows most of the past game's storylines for full enjoyment.  Doing the same for future games is cool.

I skimmed over the Shadow stuff because honestly apart from him always giving Rouge and Omega the cold-shoulder due to this stupid "team dark isn't a thing" mandate I don't really recall having any issue with how he acts in the comics.  And "Team Dark isn't a thing" I'm technically fine with too if he wants to be a loner, I just hate seeing him speak to Rouge and Omega with the same disinterested tone that he speaks to Sonic etc.

All I'd like now is that if there's no unclunky way to introduce Sticks to the canon in the games, let her show up in the comics.  I'm even fine with her not having an origin story, she can just be a character Amy met off-screen with some sort of "I have a life outside of your adventures, Sonic" joke.  I'd just like to have some info to ground her in the game universe as to what her deal is generally, even if it is pretty much the same as her life in Sonic Boom, transplanted in.