Should Sega follow up origins with a "middle era" collection? What should it include?

[JezMM]

16 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

If you want an even better equivalent example: Mighty No. 9.

I know plenty are aware of how that  game turned out in a manner similar Sonic 06. You would think the same of that game (I crowdfunded that shit for $50, and that’s chump change for me, so I sure as hell know how that went) as that game was not fun. But did you know IntiCreate basically remade that game’s levels and bosses (mind you it was done 2D pixel art, so there was some cost saving there) and used them for Mighty Gunvolt Burst into a game that’s actually fun—basically the equivalent of taking Sonic 06 and actually making it good? Then they added 7 extra playable characters to it.

This is why I believe you can take a bad game and actually fix it into something good—I’ve seen it done with other titles that have done just as worse in reception.

I didn't know this and as an outsider I have thought nothing good came from Mighty No. 9 this entire time!  That's the power of bad press for you.  Either way though, as you say, they basically made a whole new game with what they had - that's not really what a re-release of Shadow the Hedgehog would be.

I think when it takes this much work to figure out what would be reasonable to fix for a simple collection like the topic is asking about and what would basically be a full blown remake project, knowing that the more it resembles the original game, the more negative the reception will be... you've got a stinker.  The best we can hope for is some insane fans like those behind Project 06 take it upon themselves to make a faithful PC port to preserve it for the sake of preserving it, because that's all the game deserves really and it just wouldn't be profitable for SEGA to do it.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

31 minutes ago, JezMM said:

I didn't know this and as an outsider I have thought nothing good came from Mighty No. 9 this entire time!  That's the power of bad press for you. 
 

See, I thought the same thing until I ran across that title. Since then, it changed my mind over the idea of bad games never having a chance—give something a second chance to the right people, and you’d be surprised at a glowing results you can get.

The corollary being they have to care enough to want it to be good. You could say this made me less cynical to ideas once thought couldn’t come to fruition (that, and having to put a sock in my mouth years ago for saying Sonic 4 would never be made regardless of how much people ask—I’m never saying “never” again).

31 minutes ago, JezMM said:

Either way though, as you say, they basically made a whole new game with what they had - that's not really what a re-release of Shadow the Hedgehog would be.

Technically they just took Mighty No 9’s levels and bosses, and Ray as a playable character and pixelated it along with adding a whole menu of new abilities and powers (seriously, play the game if you get a chance. Joule from the Azure Striker series is fun and broken af).

I’m definitely over-generalizing this saying all that, but Mighty Gunvolt Burst is essentially what Mighty No 9 would be if the original creators didn’t fuck up and was given a second chance, because barring a few removed levels, it’s practically the same game, but good.

You will have a challenge with the boss fights, but they’re not unfair…tho I say that as someone who likes bosses kicking me in the teeth, so beware of me downplaying it.

31 minutes ago, JezMM said:

I think when it takes this much work to figure out what would be reasonable to fix for a simple collection like the topic is asking about and what would basically be a full blown remake project, knowing that the more it resembles the original game, the more negative the reception will be... you've got a stinker.  The best we can hope for is some insane fans like those behind Project 06 take it upon themselves to make a faithful PC port to preserve it for the sake of preserving it, because that's all the game deserves really and it just wouldn't be profitable for SEGA to do it.

Eh, I just see it as another idea. Whether it happens or not isn’t something I’m going to make much of a statement on, because there have been plenty of surprises I never thought would happen that I just stopped assuming what Sega will or won’t do without anything concrete. 

[light-gaia]

Sonic Adventure 1, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog. The "128 bits" era

[The Deleter]

For all this talk of supposedly revamping Shadow into a heavily altered game all for the sake of an ESRB rating, throwing an E10+ or PEGI 12+ onto the box isn't exactly an alien concept for Sonic collections:

Nor should we forget that games like SLW and Forces were the most recent releases in the series, and came with the E10+ rating as well lol

[Shaddy Zaphod]

I don't think the ESRB rating is at the heart of people wanting to change Shadow? I'm not even sure how you got that impression, I've only seen like one person even bring it up.

People want to change Shadow because it doesn't fit with other games in this fake collection, let alone the series as a whole. The rating doesn't matter, frankly SA2 would have gotten an E10+ if it existed at the time, what's important is that Shadow's swear words and hardcore alien-killing or whatever are fucking stupid.

I don't necessarily need a game with no gunplay, but softening the edges a bit on top of the far more important "put all the stuff in one playthrough and don't make me hunt 45 enemies to beat a stage" would go a long way in making it stand closer to Heroes in terms of acceptibility.

Honestly, the dialogue that puts crazy emphasis on mild swear words like a kid who just learned what swears are is far more embarrassing and hard to swallow than the guns, and that's something people could actually take a crack at now, just by editing the voice lines.

[The Deleter]

Well the rating point was where I assumed the start of the conversation was being driven by. It also appeared to be the most legitimate point for why it wouldn't happen or why it would have to change to work within a collection. Everything else is just wishlisting from people hoping for a revamp to "fit better" with the series or be their ideal game they wanted to begin with, which isn't what the premise of including a game in a collection is for at all.

[azoo]

Shadow should just never get a rerelease. “But how will anyone play it now?”. Idk, how will anyone play Vexx?

”But Azoo, that game is rubbish!” Yeah, well.

[Kuzu]

Can I just say how absolutely funny it is that despite the game being almost two decades old, and has had not a single re-release whatsoever. Shadow the Hedgehog is still firmly entrenched in the public conscious, to the point where one of the people who worked on it is currently directing the Film series. 

Does the game even need re-release? Because I don't think anyone will ever forget about that game's existence. 

[Razule]

The purpose of re-releasing games is so more people can experience them after the console they're on stops being produced. Would be nice to play it without needing to buy a PS2, or.. sail the high seas.

But.. why would they want it to be more accessible?

[Shaddy Zaphod]

It's not just about accessibility. I mean, let's be honest, threads and speculation like this is basically the new version of "what if they remade Sonic 06" discussion. The difference is that we've seen firsthand how a game can be transformed by outside modifications (even excluding full-on remakes like Project 06), and thus we keep looking at SEGA and all the mid of the Sonic franchise and saying "why can't you just do that". It's just that everyone knows nobody would buy a rerelease of Shadow the hedgehog unless it was in a collection with some good Sonic games.

[JezMM]

10 hours ago, The Deleter said:

For all this talk of supposedly revamping Shadow into a heavily altered game all for the sake of an ESRB rating, throwing an E10+ or PEGI 12+ onto the box isn't exactly an alien concept for Sonic collections:

Nor should we forget that games like SLW and Forces were the most recent releases in the series, and came with the E10+ rating as well lol

Huh, forgot about these.  I guess I rescind my comments about Shadow bumping up a collection's age rating really mattering that much then, coz I'm under the impression that Mega Collection Plus sold great.

[jungle_penguins]

I honestly wonder, what if these games had higher resolution textures in place. Do they even have those? Like imagine the Space Colony Ark levels in Shadow but they look HD.

[JezMM]

1 hour ago, jungle_penguins said:

I honestly wonder, what if these games had higher resolution textures in place. Do they even have those? Like imagine the Space Colony Ark levels in Shadow but they look HD.

This should give you some idea of how it would compare.  Remember that textures can only give a small amount of upgrade, as increasing the real fidelity requires re-modelling - adding extra polygons to the environment and characters etc.  It isn't always a straight upgrade either, as sometimes in these older games, textures are used to represent something that in a modern game, would be 3D.  Upgrading these without upgrading the 3D models can result in super weird looking stuff like this:

Look at how hyper detailed Mario's (texture-based) eyes are and how jarring it looks pasted onto his unchanged 3D model, which still has an incredibly blocky nose and hands etc.

So sometimes it can be better to just leave old graphics alone unless you have the budget to really give them the full remake treatment.  Doing things in half-measures can often result in a sloppy look.

Hell, even Sonic Adventure DX is guilty of this, with the high detail remade character models looking ridiculous next to the robot-ass looking NPCs that weren't changed from the Dreamcast version.

[Salamander]

Credit where credit's due, Mighty Gunvolt Burst is really good and I've played it through about eight times.  I would also say, though, that it really isn't meaningfully the same game as Mighty No. 9; and if our premise is "characters from a bad game can become beloved in a better-made game", then I don't think that's a particularly controversial perspective.

I think we are coming to the point, though, that there are some games which did such reputational damage to Sonic that they're never going to be more than a novelty purchase, so the most realistic way of preserving them would probably just be a minimal-effort port or emulation job as part of a collection with some games which people actually do want.  With that said, preservation of Sonic titles on an official basis is such a mammoth task that I don't think there's any realistic chance of SEGA doing it thoroughly, even if they wanted to (or were capable of so doing); probably what we'll see are only the best and only the easiest titles to resurrect - and even that's dependent on the continuing reception of the franchise as a whole.

[jungle_penguins]

3 hours ago, JezMM said:

So sometimes it can be better to just leave old graphics alone unless you have the budget to really give them the full remake treatment.  Doing things in half-measures can often result in a sloppy look.

Hell, even Sonic Adventure DX is guilty of this, with the high detail remade character models looking ridiculous next to the robot-ass looking NPCs that weren't changed from the Dreamcast version.

Ok agree, forgot those even existed. Shadow does not have nearly enough fidelity for potential source assets to be justified. 

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Revitalizing dated game graphics usually works best when retrofitting them with supplementary effects like lighting, better color grading and such. Look at Minecraft's default assets with those nice shaderpacks, and compare with uh...this.

Doesn't quite look like the masterpiece you were hoping for.

Obviously it needs to be more subtle than some teenager's crappy reshade preset (god I have no idea how anyone thinks that blurry bloom-fest nastiness looks good), but a lot of "bad" graphics can have their potential brought out when lit well, as the SADX lantern engine mods prove.

[castell-neath]

Since the OP its interesting to see how the debate has mostly been about remaking shadow. I'm more of the view of Sa,2 and heroes but redo them in a similar manner to the recent GTA and Mafia trillogy re-releases

 

I love the idea of advance and rush being redone in some package...maybe a "Sonic Handheld classics" that includes the game gear games, advance and 3ds / ds games