What if all of Modern Sonic's transformations were combined?

[BLUzCLUz]

Not sure if anyone discussed this before, but I'm referring to fusing the Super, Darkspine, Werehog, and Excalibur forms together. How powerful would Sonic get?

[Diogenes]

They'd cancel out. Super and Excalibur use positive energy and Darkspine and the werehog use negative energy. He'd spend 5 minutes powering up just to end up back where he started. It would be very awkward.

[BLUzCLUz]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

They'd cancel out. Super and Excalibur use positive energy and Darkspine and the werehog use negative energy.

Or if Sonic pulls it off, he could unite the light and dark energy like yin and yang. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YinYangBomb

On a side note, it's unknown what would Darkspine become with all seven rings.

[charmsb]

Quite the esoteric question. I like Diogenes interpretation. But I think it misses something:

Super Sonic uses Positive Chaos energy.

It is not explained what Excalibur uses.

It is not explained what Darkspine uses - just cuz hes dark doesnt mean that energy is dark, same idea for above.

Werehog uses Dark Gaia energy.

 

So I don't actually think there's opposing forces. I mean, I guess the answer is just.... really powerful?

[BLUzCLUz]

2 hours ago, charmsb said:

So I don't actually think there's opposing forces. I mean, I guess the answer is just.... really powerful?

Without a doubt. Now I also wonder what the composite transformation would look like, assuming Sonic has all the World Rings too.

[charmsb]

If Sonic has all of the World Rings he'd look incomprehensible. Doesn't he only have like 3 or 4 as Darkspine?

[BLUzCLUz]

2 minutes ago, charmsb said:

If Sonic has all of the World Rings he'd look incomprehensible. Doesn't he only have like 3 or 4 as Darkspine?

3 rings. And I guess the compete form for Alf Layla wa-Layla resembles a giant orb.

[KingMario05]

Whatever it looked like, I'm pretty sure that, if you had previously wronged Sonic, you'd need to start running.

Spoiler

That's assuming his sheer power level didn't vaporize you on sight...

 

[Kazhnuz]

There can be some possibilitles depending of what a writer want that I can see :

- Maybe the different form simply can't combine, and replace each other (that's the answer if a writer see the idea as not really interesting and don't want to bother with such a thing)

- Maybe the sheer amount of power would simply kill Sonic, and that an human body can't do that (basically the same)

- Pure Positive Chaos Energy have some "cleansing" abilities in some medias (like SX), so maybe it would cancel the Werehog (Dark Gaïa Energy) and the negative-emotion energy from Darkspine Sonic.

- Maybe Sonic would become some sort of corrupted entity by such contradicary powers and would have to be defeated to be saved (classic, but efficient)

- Sonic would be extremely powerful, but then the story would have an enemy with this power level. Kinda a bad idea in my book, as basically you will be pressed to make things even more powerful or to use it more often. (Hyper Sonic would have add the same kind of issue if they made it truly canon)

[BLUzCLUz]

10 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

There can be some possibilitles depending of what a writer want that I can see :

- Maybe the different form simply can't combine, and replace each other (that's the answer if a writer see the idea as not really interesting and don't want to bother with such a thing)

- Maybe the sheer amount of power would simply kill Sonic, and that an human body can't do that (basically the same)

- Pure Positive Chaos Energy have some "cleansing" abilities in some medias (like SX), so maybe it would cancel the Werehog (Dark Gaïa Energy) and the negative-emotion energy from Darkspine Sonic.

- Maybe Sonic would become some sort of corrupted entity by such contradicary powers and would have to be defeated to be saved (classic, but efficient)

- Sonic would be extremely powerful, but then the story would have an enemy with this power level. Kinda a bad idea in my book, as basically you will be pressed to make things even more powerful or to use it more often. (Hyper Sonic would have add the same kind of issue if they made it truly canon)

I'm thinking it would be a mix of the last two outcomes you mentioned.

[KingMario05]

1 hour ago, BLUzCLUz said:

- Maybe Sonic would become some sort of corrupted entity by such contradicary powers and would have to be defeated to be saved (classic, but efficient)

Ooh, that'd be great. Especially if Tails was the one saving him, for a change... sigh, a boy can dream.

[BLUzCLUz]

1 hour ago, KingMario05 said:

Ooh, that'd be great. Especially if Tails was the one saving him, for a change... sigh, a boy can dream.

I think it would take much more friends than Tails alone to save Sonic from himself.

[KingMario05]

Eh, ya never know. It's always the nice ones you need to watch out for...

[Kazhnuz]

Tails could completely save Sonic from that, the one who would save Sonic would depends of what the writer want, and what they would want to tell about such a story.

- Tails being a support/supportive character (nice personality, non-violent and with a fully positive bond to Sonic and not in the "Deity-level" class of power), he would be the kind of character you use if you want Sonic to be saved with friendship/bound. It would be a good way to show the good side of having him more as a non-fighter nowadays, as it would show how his vision could be more usefull in some circumstance than the one that the fighter have (and without making him cartoonigly talented with tech as Lost World), especially if they make the strong character fail before. It could also be a way to show how their link is important for both. Amy could have the same kind of role (it would be a nice way to show more positively the link between Amy and Sonic, a work that have started since the last few years).

- Shadow, Blaze or Silver would be used if they want the corrupted entity to be fought to be saved. Knuckles could be used too if they really want, even if he is kinda shown more as a "strong-but-not-op" level since a while. Depending on the character, they could add some kind of friendship power in the mixt, if they want to show the character not "attacking" corrupted Sonic but simply containing him (which would make both approach compatible)

 

We're talking about a scenario that haven't ever been done in the IP ("combining a lot of different powered states "), and the classic rules of "who would win in a battle ? The one the writer want" prevail in that kind of case even more than in more "stable" premise. A writer could even make logical that BIG THE CAT would be the key to save Sonic (sure, it would be certainly a bit more humorous, but it could be justified).

A lot of tropes could be justify who would save Sonic. I would prefer if such a save would be a team work (with Tails and Amy talking to Sonic at the end, reminding him WHO he is, while all the other are containing him (yeah, I love that kind of tropes)), but many other possibilities could justify other scenarii.

[KingMario05]

See, I'd take it more like the "beat him up to free him" trope, problematic though it may be. Here, Sonic's spirit would be trapped while his deepest flaws came to the forefront, and only with a sucker punch via Super Tails would such a combo be "freed," if that makes any sense. Then Tails goes beyond Super because why not, turns Sonic super and the two fight off the negative Sonic and then save the world... all while Amy and Knux fend off the hordes from below.

I know it sounds dumb as fuck, but I'd love, love, love for a spinoff game starring Tails to end like this. It'd be a really great way to strengthen their bond, and would be a great way to deliver the fight we've all been wanting to see in a game for years now. 

Spoiler

Mind you, my vision also consists of negative Sonic turning green and calling himself Scourge, but that's a can of worms for another time.

 

[BLUzCLUz]

So does anyone have some idea on what the composite transformation would look like?

[Kazhnuz]

1 hour ago, KingMario05 said:

See, I'd take it more like the "beat him up to free him" trope, problematic though it may be. Here, Sonic's spirit would be trapped while his deepest flaws came to the forefront, and only with a sucker punch via Super Tails would such a combo be "freed," if that makes any sense. Then Tails goes beyond Super because why not, turns Sonic super and the two fight off the negative Sonic and then save the world... all while Amy and Knux fend off the hordes from below.

I know it sounds dumb as fuck, but I'd love, love, love for a spinoff game starring Tails to end like this. It'd be a really great way to strengthen their bond, and would be a great way to deliver the fight we've all been wanting to see in a game for years now. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Mind you, my vision also consists of negative Sonic turning green and calling himself Scourge, but that's a can of worms for another time.

 

I don't think that a "corrupted Sonic" flaw would show his "deepest flaw" in a good way for a fight, because in a way… Most of them aren't related to power. In most Sonic media, Sonic is shown as being pretty pure, and his biggest shown flaws are his is ego and is tendencies to act before thinking. We can show that with that the Werehog didn't corrupt Sonic in Unleashed, and that in Archie it corrupted his perception of things (and added another flaw : a tendencies to not handle well that he might be unwell).

It's also a bit visible in Archie (where despite what Scourge said, it was shown several time and said that Sonic that the deepest differences between them wasn't just that Scourge was Sonic but evil, but that it was his opposite : Sonic was ready to take effort and put himself to danger for other, while Scourge was just a bully... Which is shown when Sonic get the most "dark" in Archie : he get angry and kinda frightening for people that threaten his friends). But for me, a corrupted Sonic, especially by a force of power wouldn't need more that simply show his deepest flaw and make him evil.

( And to be fair, Sonic with his "deepest flaw" shown and full power would certainly be more dangerous for him than for his friends (by throwing himself as too powerfull villain without thinking), except by putting them into danger too )

I would see a "corrupted fusion of every Sonic forms" maybe a bit more like the "power in itself" being in charge now.

 

( And for such a punch by Tails to have real narrative effect, the flaws would be to be more on how he would do wrong to Tails and how he can learn to become better, but to be fair… in most game their relationship is too good for that, and the worst he got (two time a bit dismissive of Tails), he have either apologized or be happy that Tails responded to him. I mean, with some stuff we could show how he put basically in danger a 8-yo, but it would be more compatible with Tails being terrified in Sonic Forces/Unleashed than with Super Tails punching Dark Perfect Sonic. ).

[KingMario05]

I'm not sure if I understand this, so could you elaborate? My Dark Perfect Sonic would basically be his ego taking control as he ascended to godhood, with the resulting debate being whether or not to kill him in order to save the world. (As one might imagine, Shadow thinks so while Tails disagrees... cue Shadow boss fights recurring throughout the campaign, a la Majima Everywhere or the Marauder from Doom Eternal.) I think it could work; you clearly disagree. You said it's because of his inherent purity, right? Well... what if we took that away?

Spoiler

Nothing mean or toxic is meant by this, mind you. I'm genuinely interested in your response here.

 

[Kazhnuz]

For me, that's a question of what is the flaw, and how it works. Sonic ego is kinda different than many ego in that he thinks that he his "good", but doesn't feel himself as higher than any other in nearly any version. He mostly thinks that he is an hero and is good at what he does. So I feel that if a super state would ccorrupt him by affecting his flaw, he wouldn't see himself as a "superior" as it's not something that matters to him most of the time ("What you see is what you get ! I'm just a guy who loves Adventure"). it could be a component of his power, or if we think that anybody which such power would see themselves as god (but I feel that it would weaken kinda the point about Sonic's evolution). That's why Scourge is brillant : it at the same time Sonic at some level, and everything Sonic is not. What Sonic could have been if he wasn't everything that make him him.

For me, Sonic is a character that's difficult to make evil while still being kinda Sonic (which for me is a point of a corruption of flaws, him still being Sonic), because he have a vision of the world where he isn't that "important" (even if he still have an ego and some flaws, even if they are most used in the Boost era than in the Adventure era). So I feel that if we want to explore his flaws, showing how he could affect people would be effective. Sure, we can transform Sonic, but I always feel a bit iffy about amplifying a flaw to make him learn something. For a hyper-powered Sonic to have to be "saved" from his friend, I would maybe make more the fact he got corrupted a result of his flaw (for instance believing too much that he would not and that he could handle all his super transformation at once) more than his "evil form" be one. (and it could be a more interesting conflict, Tails being worried about how Sonic could put himself in danger, Sonic thinking that everything will be okay… and welp everything wasn't okay. And it would be interesting to see how Tails would feel in such a case… certainly pretty low, and a mixt of sad, worried, angry, guilty and hurt.)

That's one of the question with making a story centered about Sonic. Sonic is often more written as some kind of symbol, or our point of view to the story more than the object of the story (one of the few exceptions is Lost World). And it's also a bit of his appeal to a lot of people, and I think that's what is pretty interesting.

 

Of course, it's just a difference of vision/opinion/point of view about the character. I just prefer some other way of handling such stories, and see them more in line with my interpretation of the character. My vision isn't worth anything more than any other, in the end the only people that can decide what would happens and what could work in their stories are the people creating the actual story.

[KingMario05]

Makes sense. We can agree to disagree then... take care!

Spoiler

Only ask cause I'm planning on writing a fanfic about this... at some point... if I can find the time.

So probably never. (LOL.)

 

[BLUzCLUz]

I think these stories would do in a novel.

[HywelAtTheMoon]

On 8/17/2021 at 10:16 PM, Kazhnuz said:

For me, that's a question of what is the flaw, and how it works. Sonic ego is kinda different than many ego in that he thinks that he his "good", but doesn't feel himself as higher than any other in nearly any version. He mostly thinks that he is an hero and is good at what he does. So I feel that if a super state would ccorrupt him by affecting his flaw, he wouldn't see himself as a "superior" as it's not something that matters to him most of the time ("What you see is what you get ! I'm just a guy who loves Adventure"). it could be a component of his power, or if we think that anybody which such power would see themselves as god (but I feel that it would weaken kinda the point about Sonic's evolution). That's why Scourge is brillant : it at the same time Sonic at some level, and everything Sonic is not. What Sonic could have been if he wasn't everything that make him him.

For me, Sonic is a character that's difficult to make evil while still being kinda Sonic (which for me is a point of a corruption of flaws, him still being Sonic), because he have a vision of the world where he isn't that "important" (even if he still have an ego and some flaws, even if they are most used in the Boost era than in the Adventure era). So I feel that if we want to explore his flaws, showing how he could affect people would be effective. Sure, we can transform Sonic, but I always feel a bit iffy about amplifying a flaw to make him learn something. For a hyper-powered Sonic to have to be "saved" from his friend, I would maybe make more the fact he got corrupted a result of his flaw (for instance believing too much that he would not and that he could handle all his super transformation at once) more than his "evil form" be one. (and it could be a more interesting conflict, Tails being worried about how Sonic could put himself in danger, Sonic thinking that everything will be okay… and welp everything wasn't okay. And it would be interesting to see how Tails would feel in such a case… certainly pretty low, and a mixt of sad, worried, angry, guilty and hurt.)

That's one of the question with making a story centered about Sonic. Sonic is often more written as some kind of symbol, or our point of view to the story more than the object of the story (one of the few exceptions is Lost World). And it's also a bit of his appeal to a lot of people, and I think that's what is pretty interesting.

 

Of course, it's just a difference of vision/opinion/point of view about the character. I just prefer some other way of handling such stories, and see them more in line with my interpretation of the character. My vision isn't worth anything more than any other, in the end the only people that can decide what would happens and what could work in their stories are the people creating the actual story.

Fleetway did have a Psycho Super Sonic a few times. He had an almost "Hulk" backstory, in that some of the energy from six of the Emeralds (minus the grey one) fused with him. After a few stressful situations, he would "snap" and go super. 

 

A combined psycho form would make a fairly good final boss.

[BLUzCLUz]

21 hours ago, HywelAtTheMoon said:

A combined psycho form would make a fairly good final boss.

Yes, but we still haven't discussed the appearance.

[KingMario05]

9 hours ago, BLUzCLUz said:

Yes, but we still haven't discussed the appearance.

I'm thinking a Sonic version of this? Sega does like its psycho angels...

[BLUzCLUz]

20 hours ago, KingMario05 said:

I'm thinking a Sonic version of this? Sega does like its psycho angels...

I imagine something more like this: https://talesofarcadia.fandom.com/wiki/File:Jim_Troll_Form.png