The current tone of the Sonic game series

[Legendary Emerald]

Ah, I'd forgotten the scene where Shadow "kills" Eggman. It's not as "out of place" to me as ridiculously done. A karate chop to the head? Has that ever killed anyone? In fact, I'd go as far to say that you're all reading too much into the scene. If Shadow somehow had the ability to hit someone in the head with enough force to kill them, supposedly by causing a massive, instantaneous hemorrhage, I doubt the victim would be saying "NOOOOOOOOOO!" for at least two second after the blow fell.

If SEGA wanted it to be implied that Shadow killed Eggman, they would have done something similar to the scene in the opening video where Shadow (pistol in hand) stands above a broken and beaten Sonic.

[Dr. Mechano]

Ah, I'd forgotten the scene where Shadow "kills" Eggman. It's not as "out of place" to me as ridiculously done. A karate chop to the head? Has that ever killed anyone? In fact, I'd go as far to say that you're all reading too much into the scene. If Shadow somehow had the ability to hit someone in the head with enough force to kill them, supposedly by causing a massive, instantaneous hemorrhage, I doubt the victim would be saying "NOOOOOOOOOO!" for at least two second after the blow fell.

If SEGA wanted it to be implied that Shadow killed Eggman, they would have done something similar to the scene in the opening video where Shadow (pistol in hand) stands above a broken and beaten Sonic.

Three major things imply death though.

In all of the death scenes, Shadow proclaims "Goodbye, Doctor!" You don't say "goodbye" to someone you merely plan to knock out. Furthermore, Eggman was incapacitated under the wrecked Egg Dealer in all of these scenes anyway, so there'd be no practical reason to merely render him unconscious.

Secondly, in one of these three specific endings, Shadow threatens to send Eggman to hell prior to the boss fight. The intent was death, made clear and evident by Shadow.

Thirdly, in one specific variant Omega aims at Eggman and announces that he plans to "destroy" him just before Shadow delivers the aforementioned karate chop. Even if the chop didn't kill him, we're left with the knowledge that Omega is just about to shoot.

All of these aspects lead to believe I'm not looking too much into it, and that indeed Shadow killed Eggman in these three scenes. Which I again feel is out of place.

[Legendary Emerald]

To quote the Spy, "I have been shown who is the boss!" I'd forgotten all the points you brought up; I still play the game quite often, but not in story mode.

Also, Shadow the hedgehog isn't all serious. After all, it spawned this (in)famous music video!

Tripod Baby - Shadow the Hedgehog Version

Shadow makes his appearance around 1:30; you've got to love it when he dances so awkwardly. Just found out about this video today, by doing a search on the Shadow the Hedgehog game on youtube.

Edited October 1, 2009 by Legendary Emerald

[Dejablue]

I wish Sonic Games were written by the guys who did the Ratchet and Clank series.

....Then at the same time I kinda don't? R&C humor may not mix well with Sonic.

[Legendary Emerald]

Sonic series either needs to go all-out humor or all-out seriousness. The developers can't seem to get both to mesh together (*cough* Sonic Unleashed *cough*), and the closest they've come is the Adventure and Storybook series.

[Dr. Mechano]

Sonic series either needs to go all-out humor or all-out seriousness.

No, I think that's the problem.

I find the best-written stories successfully blend comedy and drama, without being too skewed either way. The Mario RPGs, I think, are good examples to follow- Serious overriding plotline, with lots of wacky goofy fun along the way to lighten the mood. For Sonic to do this would be ideal.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's possible to mesh the two. But if he's going to go for all out anything it needs to be all out humor, because unless they're going to make it like SA2 an all out serious plot isn't going to fare the series well.

[Dejablue]

Sonic series either needs to go all-out humor or all-out seriousness.

Ew no way. For them to go 100 percent in either direction would be a disaster.

[azoo]

Visually, I want the tone to be all decked-out retro stuff. I know, you guys might go "But you mentioned a liking for Nextgen's design!". I just thought that would be neat to see as a one-time-only deal (although yes, I like it as itself, not generally comparing it to the Sonic series).

I'd actually wanna see Sonic's designs like how Sumo Digital has been doing it: Unleashed character designs and classic environments. They both really blend well, and I wish they would shift that into the mainstream franchise.

As for stories? I don't like it when they put too much emphasis on the storyline. Sure, having a good story is okay, but heck, it should be second to gameplay (or maybe even third to gameplay and presentation). Although I know some people wouldn't wanna settle with it, I don't see why Sonic shouldn't have a storyline about as deep as Mario Galaxy. Plus, I don't necessarily think that Sonic should be really that humourous. I mean, yes, a couple of funny things every now and then, but mostly I'm thinking of the lightheartedness just coming from the series' charm. However, I do expect a somewhat epic storyline, although not too chained up by other characters; just basically a story featuring Sonic and Eggman, with some characters who have slightly related events going on with them, which cause them to be enfused into the storyline. In other words, basically what SA1 did, minus the whole Chaos/Tikal bit.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

OF course plot should be second to the gameplay, but that's not the point.

And Galaxy's plot was really underwhelming except for some of the themes and Rosalina, at least to me. Nothing but the same basic stuff in 64 and Sunshine, and it was rather weak in the storytelling part. It started off with Bowser kidnapping the Princess, Meeting Rosalina, eventually got to another part where Rosalina said something about remembering the world they're orbiting if I remember, then it got to them blasting through Bowser's blockade and eventually leading up to the universe's destruction and then revival. It didn't really have that impact that Sonic should go for. That's one of the reasons why I want more of a plot than Galaxy tried to make.

But that's me. I don't exactly like plots that can be summed up in a paragraph. If anything, I'd like it more like Super Paper Mario. One filled with a lot of twists and turns and leaves you guessing just what'll happen next. Seriously, that story surprised me especially near the end when Dimentio ended up taking over. Who thought the guy would have you guessing like that each time he showed up?

Edited October 2, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[back2s0ul]

Lighter with edge, I think someone said.

I don't like the darker elements. The more serious the tone, the more laughable it is, and the more plot they make up, the more questions it raises.

[Dejablue]

Yes but the more questions it raises the sexier and more mysterious it becomes...

[Blazey Firekitty]

Looking over the posts regarding Shadow's murder of Eggman in the ShtH endings, I'd say that one of the most unnerving things about the game(At least from my perspective, as someone who hasn't played the game yet, but has heard many horror stories about it), was its exaggeration of the negative aspects of Shadow's character. In his original appearance, back in Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow was a troubled character who eventually learned that the world wasn't so bad. A bitter, angry person learning about love and friendship, not entirely unlike Blaze's debut appearance some years later.

In Shadow's solo game, he's a full on homicidal maniac, and we're given "amnesia" as a hasty excuse.

[Phos]

OF course plot should be second to the gameplay, but that's not the point.

And Galaxy's plot was really underwhelming except for some of the themes and Rosalina, at least to me. Nothing but the same basic stuff in 64 and Sunshine, and it was rather weak in the storytelling part. It started off with Bowser kidnapping the Princess, Meeting Rosalina, eventually got to another part where Rosalina said something about remembering the world they're orbiting if I remember, then it got to them blasting through Bowser's blockade and eventually leading up to the universe's destruction and then revival. It didn't really have that impact that Sonic should go for. That's one of the reasons why I want more of a plot than Galaxy tried to make.

A storyline in a video game like Sonic^* shouldn't "extend past" gameplay and become some sort of big clumsy load on the rest of the game, that's like trying to carry something too large and irregular in the back of a truck, and that's what happened in Sonic 06.

^*And by that I mean anything that isn't an RPG.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

A storyline in a video game like Sonic^* shouldn't "extend past" gameplay and become some sort of big clumsy load on the rest of the game, that's like trying to carry something too large and irregular in the back of a truck, and that's what happened in Sonic 06.

That's not even what I said. I said of course the plot should be secondary to the game play, not extend past it. I'm sure no one wants another plot like Sonic 06.

^*And by that I mean anything that isn't an RPG.

It doesn't have to be an RPG, it just has to be entertaining is what I was trying to say.

[Blazey Firekitty]

A storyline in a video game like Sonic^* shouldn't "extend past" gameplay and become some sort of big clumsy load on the rest of the game, that's like trying to carry something too large and irregular in the back of a truck, and that's what happened in Sonic 06.

^*And by that I mean anything that isn't an RPG.

But at the same time, a complex story doesn't have to derail things the way it did in 06.

The Sonic Adventure titles had complex stories, but(And you may correct me if I'm wrong) their gameplay was generally well received(With the possible exception of Big's fishing levels).

[azoo]

True in only SA1's speaking. SA1 had a nice storyline that wasn't too complex but wasn't too simple, and it's gameplay was ace.

SA2 (IMO) felt like the same thing as Nextgen (focusing on the storyline so much it overshadowed the gameplay), but only for the fact that things were quite a bit more polished in that game. Which didn't really help, because overall it was still pretty much crap if you ask me.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don't think there's really been any Sonic game where plot overshadowed it's gameplay. I thought Sonic 06's story had a lot of shitty moments, but not that it was made more important than the gameplay.

[Legendary Emerald]

All this talk of how shitty Sonic 2006 is makes me want to play the game some more. Is that wrong? I fuckin' love that game; no joke. Can't accuse me of being a newfag, because I'll tell you that my favorite Sonic game is still Sonic 1 for the genesis.

[Dejablue]

"...criyin' out loud" ~ Eli

Look a bit closer at what you wrote. There is only one "I" in "Cryin'". Don't think I didn't notice that of all the things in my post, you chose to go after the very smallest issue. And you are just fundamentally wrong.

"Quite the opposite I realized."

That statement is just fundamentally wrong. Sure, swearing like a sailor doesn't make you seem mature, but saying "shit" or even "crap" makes you sound a lot more mature than the infantile users of "crud" and other non-swears. And the people who swear heavily usually do so for either comedic effect, or out of anger problems that would certainly be worse if they were not allowed to express their rage in words (rather than actions). Take your elitism somewhere else; I'm done with this conversation, because it's obvious you've been brainwashed by someone or other.

_

Dude what crawled up your tail last night?

"i disagree with you. have some personal attacks"

Edited October 2, 2009 by Dejablue

[Legendary Emerald]

"...criyin' out loud" ~ Eli

Look a bit closer at what you wrote. There is only one "I" in "Cryin'". Don't think I didn't notice that of all the things in my post, you chose to go after the very smallest issue. And you are just fundamentally wrong.

"Quite the opposite I realized."

That statement is just fundamentally wrong. Sure, swearing like a sailor doesn't make you seem mature, but saying "shit" or even "crap" makes you sound a lot more mature than the infantile users of "crud" and other non-swears. And the people who swear heavily usually do so for either comedic effect, or out of anger problems that would certainly be worse if they were not allowed to express their rage in words (rather than actions). Take your elitism somewhere else; I'm done with this conversation, because it's obvious you've been brainwashed by someone or other.

_

Dude what crawled up your tail last night?

"i disagree with you. have some personal attacks"

Yeah, I wasn't a happy little Vegemite that day. However, in my defense, I felt he was attacking me (indirectly) and only posted what I did to counter him. Probably could have gone about that a different (nicer) way, but my opinions still stand.

[Blazey Firekitty]

SA2 (IMO) felt like the same thing as Nextgen (focusing on the storyline so much it overshadowed the gameplay), but only for the fact that things were quite a bit more polished in that game. Which didn't really help, because overall it was still pretty much crap if you ask me.

Well, I don't personally feel that the problems with SA2 were so much because of the story, but more because the game kept forcing the player to switch genres constantly. It kept flipping between "SPEED!", "SHOOTING!", and "SCAVENGER HUNT!", without giving the player much time to get their bearings.

[Miko]

Sonic Adventure 2 was, arguably, the first game to introduce truly "dark" elements into the Sonic game series.

Well, a guy transforming sentient animals friends into robots, and conquering cities and refineries isn't the most light hearted of stories. It's not brooding like SA2's story with Shadow, but certainly not the most light hearted story to tell. I could say really that you can find a good deal of both shades in it. Even the classics had levels that weren't always brightly colored and stuff. That and in Sonic Adventure, the allusion to death, war, stealing, killing and genocide isn't very...light hearted either.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Miko

[lounge]

I think Naruto's tones are the closest things I can think of that should resemble a sonic storyline. When they used to air it, I tuned in every sat. cause of how it balances its tones. Depth and drama in the characters motivations, tension when a situation always seems impossible, and humour that makes you chuckle cause it's well written and comes at the right time.

I don't care at all for light hearted stories, because they're simply Boring as Hell. You might as well not have a story at all if you're going to write a plot as embarrasing and stupid as Unleashed or Heroes.

[Phos]

SA2 (IMO) felt like the same thing as Nextgen (focusing on the storyline so much it overshadowed the gameplay), but only for the fact that things were quite a bit more polished in that game. Which didn't really help, because overall it was still pretty much crap if you ask me.

I don't think there's really been any Sonic game where plot overshadowed it's gameplay. I thought Sonic 06's story had a lot of shitty moments, but not that it was made more important than the gameplay.

It somewhat hard to tell precisely what the thought process was with SA 2, let's take those really boring driving levels as an example. The level itself was really boring which makes me think they were mandated by the story, but when Tails finds the president, they don't really do all that much, the whole subplot could have been dropped faster than the hackers in Bayformers (Transformers) 1. It's really hard to tell which came first, the level or the story that required it. Worse yet, lots of the stuff planned for Adventure 2 was cut, making it even harder to tell, the resulting game might be like it is because they had to finish up whatever they had and get it out the door. I recall hearing that Iizuka had said in an interview that he had wanted to have a Casino Night Zone style pinball table in at least one of the Adventure games, but didn't for the sake of the story. But you also have to consider something peculiar about Iizuka: He will lie through his teeth during interviews. Or maybe he isn't lying and his brain is just fuzzy.

Sonic 06 isn't an example of a plot affecting the gameplay, it's an example of the plot not being tidy enough to fit properly within the game, and I am speaking metaphorically right now.