Seeing Shadow in his Friends, Enemies, and Maria

[Shadowlax]

@Sonic Fan JHey uh , thank you but i'm going to end it here. Reading through your response it seems as though you may have fundamental differences in understandings of some stuff than I do. In a way that is causing you to read my intentions in ways that i'm not intending them to be read. We are talking past eachother, and for now at least I don't think there's anything else to gain.

Just wanted to thank you for being interested in shadow. I think that guy is pretty cool

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kuzu]

I feel like downplaying Sonic and Shadow's dynamic to just "two dudes who don't like each other" is really underselling their dynamic to a significant degree.

The fact that we're having this conversation shows that there's more to them than just the fact that they fight each other and that's it.

They're quite literally two sides of the same coin, and their conflict got started because of their similarities. It's one of the most classic dynamics in literature to explore.

 

I can't force you to see something that you don't think isn't there, but I can't help but feel reducing such a dynamic to its simplest form is missing the point. Otherwise, what's separating Shadow from...literally any other character in the series other than being a guy who's stoic and beats up bad guys, because I don't see the appeal in a character who doesn't really emote or have any reaction to other characters around him.

[Sonic Fan J]

No problem @Shadowlax.

I was starting to worry about that myself. Maybe in the future something will come along that makes it possible to explore different avenues of this debate.

[Kuzu]

You know what's a dynamic that's never really explored, Amy and Shadow. And its extremely weird since she was the one who convinced him to change and save the planet.

But very few media actually ever expand on that interaction despite how its the turning point for Shadow's entire arc and how goes from a tragic villain to a heroic figure.

[Sonic Fan J]

It is an interesting avenue that I would appreciate seeing explored. As it stands there is literally nothing beyond for an instant her reminding him of his actual promise to Maria. As there isn't anything else though there is nothing that I can extrapolate to study of Shadow's character from it.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

 

Otherwise, what's separating Shadow from...literally any other character in the series other than being a guy who's stoic and beats up bad guys, because I don't see the appeal in a character who doesn't really emote or have any reaction to other characters around him.

If I may, so you all can get a vibe on why I like shadow. His perspective and where he stands in the world. Shadow is unqiue, in the world of sonic. He is a character who has things that happened to him, that inform who he is. Now usually characters in sonic are just... the way that they are.  Even characters like knuckles who technically have a history it doesn't really inform who he is too much. Its more like I get to interpret that history  inform him. Like i can say " maybe him living on an island by himself made him gullible and gave him discipline. " but that's me like guessing. Even with out that knuckles character would function no questions for most people.

But shadow has a direct " If this had not had happened, shadow's entire perspective on life and temperament would be largely different " shadow has a canon. When they tried to bring shadow over into boom acting the same, it was met with disdain because of that. Memes of " Why do I exist sprouted up " because he has a canon. He has a reason for being, he has to be at least in that instance, explained.  And in a sea of people who just " are" , shadow having a reason for being the way he is fascinating. Not just because he's a bit more depthy , but because his perspective on life is fucked. Everyone he could consider family either was murdered or abused him and then got murdered one of which by his own hand.

And shadow not only having this weird warped dark perspective on the world, that can manifest itself in so many different ways. It brings interesting things out of other people. Again not fond of the current goings on in the book, but last issue shadow finally got sonic to think. In the archie comics shadow told knuckles that he was shit at his job, and knuckles had to think about how to do better. It was great , despite knuckles fronting it was revealed that no one had ever talked to knuckles that way. And in that interaction ( and fight ) it allowed knuckles to understand shadow better, he got him. This level of like understanding and change in knuckles that I have rarely seen before. Its one of my favorite stories. Not only does shadow have depth, when written well , he brings it out of others.

He is this weird guy who brings depth to the table. He isn't just stoic, he's thinking. He can think , at least when written well. And how he thinks and why he thinks the way that he is, is fascinating

 

35 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

You know what's a dynamic that's never really explored, Amy and Shadow. And its extremely weird since she was the one who convinced him to change and save the planet.

But very few media actually ever expand on that interaction despite how its the turning point for Shadow's entire arc and how goes from a tragic villain to a heroic figure.

 

I think they would be content with each other. They wouldn't hang out but would appreciate the other for who the other one is.

Amy is quite literally infatuated with sonic, and shadow while having similarities both physically and some personality wise, there are key differences that I don't think amy would like. While its kind of a dickish thing for amy to say, and one of the many times Ian flynn ended a story a few lines to late I think there's a line from amy in the comic that sums it up  " He's not sonic but he'll do in a pinch " at the end of the day like they aren't hanging out or share an ideals or whatever. But if she needs help, she know he will help and that he at his core is a good person and that's ok for her.

And for shadow, she didn't convince him, she helped job his memory of the person who wanted him to help people. While her kindness might have reminded her of maria , I think for shadow it kinda ends there. He understands amy is her own person and not someone he has interest in bothering with in most scenarios. But she could help him, he know she would because she's a good person like maria and he's ok with that, that works for him.

I do agree it is weird those two have seemingly never talked or interacted or anything. Even in the comics I used like one example above but its like....one example.  I wonder what their dynamic would be

Though nowadays it would just be antagonistic

[DabigRG]

Maybe it's some indifference, but finding more meaning in Sonic vs Shadow nowadays could be an exercise in futility. 

[Sonic Fan J]

Maybe, but it helped me actually appreciate his portrayal more in IDW along with my other studies of his character so it at least has that going for it. That or Flynn and I are on more similar wavelengths with Shadow than I think.

[Kuzu]

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

If I may, so you all can get a vibe on why I like shadow. His perspective and where he stands in the world. Shadow is unqiue, in the world of sonic. He is a character who has things that happened to him, that inform who he is. Now usually characters in sonic are just... the way that they are.  Even characters like knuckles who technically have a history it doesn't really inform who he is too much. Its more like I get to interpret that history  inform him. Like i can say " maybe him living on an island by himself made him gullible and gave him discipline. " but that's me like guessing. Even with out that knuckles character would function no questions for most people.

But shadow has a direct " If this had not had happened, shadow's entire perspective on life and temperament would be largely different " shadow has a canon. When they tried to bring shadow over into boom acting the same, it was met with disdain because of that. Memes of " Why do I exist sprouted up " because he has a canon. He has a reason for being, he has to be at least in that instance, explained.  And in a sea of people who just " are" , shadow having a reason for being the way he is fascinating. Not just because he's a bit more depthy , but because his perspective on life is fucked. Everyone he could consider family either was murdered or abused him and then got murdered one of which by his own hand.

And shadow not only having this weird warped dark perspective on the world, that can manifest itself in so many different ways. It brings interesting things out of other people. Again not fond of the current goings on in the book, but last issue shadow finally got sonic to think. In the archie comics shadow told knuckles that he was shit at his job, and knuckles had to think about how to do better. It was great , despite knuckles fronting it was revealed that no one had ever talked to knuckles that way. And in that interaction ( and fight ) it allowed knuckles to understand shadow better, he got him. This level of like understanding and change in knuckles that I have rarely seen before. Its one of my favorite stories. Not only does shadow have depth, when written well , he brings it out of others.

He is this weird guy who brings depth to the table. He isn't just stoic, he's thinking. He can think , at least when written well. And how he thinks and why he thinks the way that he is, is fascinating

 

I'll be kinda blunt here; this feels like you don't like seeing Shadow in any kind of situation where he could be in the wrong to another character's perspective.

He's already got all of the answers and doesn't need to learn anything else, and everyone else has to learn from him.

I find that pretty one-sided and boring, especially with a character like Shadow, who has TONS of flaws to explore. If he already has all of the answers and knows what to do, then I really don't know what else he contributes unless you make everyone else around him worse to prop him up.

Shadow is an ANTI-hero; and I don't say that because he's brooding edgy, and violent. The entire appeal of these archetypes are the negative traits that they are trying to overcome, and how these traits contrast more traditionally heroic individuals. Like, why does everyone else have to be wrong in order for Shadow to be "right". 

And none of that addresses Shadow's actual personality; he has a dark backstory, and therefore has more insight than everyone doesn't make for compelling storytelling. Shadow, to me, is always at his best when his flaws cause friction with people and he's forced to compromise to get the job done. That is satisfying; characters overcoming themselves to succeed.

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I think they would be content with each other. They wouldn't hang out but would appreciate the other for who the other one is.

Amy is quite literally infatuated with sonic, and shadow while having similarities both physically and some personality wise, there are key differences that I don't think amy would like. While its kind of a dickish thing for amy to say, and one of the many times Ian flynn ended a story a few lines to late I think there's a line from amy in the comic that sums it up  " He's not sonic but he'll do in a pinch " at the end of the day like they aren't hanging out or share an ideals or whatever. But if she needs help, she know he will help and that he at his core is a good person and that's ok for her.

And for shadow, she didn't convince him, she helped job his memory of the person who wanted him to help people. While her kindness might have reminded her of maria , I think for shadow it kinda ends there. He understands amy is her own person and not someone he has interest in bothering with in most scenarios. But she could help him, he know she would because she's a good person like maria and he's ok with that, that works for him.

I do agree it is weird those two have seemingly never talked or interacted or anything. Even in the comics I used like one example above but its like....one example.  I wonder what their dynamic would be

Though nowadays it would just be antagonistic

This is what I mean right here; Amy had no effect on Shadow's life or decisions and she just jogged his memory and nothing more. That's so very boring.

 

I dunno, I can't help but feel your interpretation of him as someone who already has all of the answers because of his backstory and that everyone else needs to learn from him as dreadfully boring. Particularly because none of that makes him sound like he has an interesting personality,  but just a figure that people react to. At least if that's the only thing to him worth exploring.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Shadow is an ANTI-hero; and I don't say that because he's brooding edgy, and violent. The entire appeal of these archetypes are the negative traits that they are trying to overcome, and how these traits contrast more traditionally heroic individuals. Like, why does everyone else have to be wrong in order for Shadow to be "right". 

And none of that addresses Shadow's actual personality; he has a dark backstory, and therefore has more insight than everyone doesn't make for compelling storytelling. Shadow, to me, is always at his best when his flaws cause friction with people and he's forced to compromise to get the job done. That is satisfying; characters overcoming themselves to succeed.

It's funny because Sonic himself is often something of an antihero.

[Kuzu]

Well, he was designed to be an alternative to the more traditionally heroic Mario, so him having more antiheroic traits like his "attitude" make sense.

But even the games have started to play around with the idea that Sonic isn't perfect with things like Lost World.

 

 

I get that people want the idealized versions their favorite character, but I feel that's missing out on exploring things about them.

[Shadowlax]

9 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I'll be kinda blunt here; this feels like you don't like seeing Shadow in any kind of situation where he could be in the wrong to another character's perspective.

He's already got all of the answers and doesn't need to learn anything else, and everyone else has to learn from him.

...How did you come up with that? I...what?
 

 

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I find that pretty one-sided and boring, especially with a character like Shadow, who has TONS of flaws to explore. If he already has all of the answers and knows what to do, then I really don't know what else he contributes unless you make everyone else around him worse to prop him up.

Shadow is an ANTI-hero; and I don't say that because he's brooding edgy, and violent. The entire appeal of these archetypes are the negative traits that they are trying to overcome, and how these traits contrast more traditionally heroic individuals. Like, why does everyone else have to be wrong in order for Shadow to be "right". 

The story i'm referencing litterally is caused by him thinking he can interject himself into knuckles life and just do what he wants and that's not the way to go and it causes him to have to do that. Shadow having a unique perspective does not remove the idea of him being wrong. To reference one of my other favorite super heroes

Batman is a smart dude who has a unique perspective, he also created brother eye, often pushes people he cares away, gets his ass beat on the reg, and let 2 of his protege's die and one get permanently injured. Just because shadow could be a dark dude with a unique perspective doesn't mean he can't be wrong, nor am I advocating for that. I think I have actually advocated on multiple occasions the reverse of the current comic arc where shadow kills a guy and it fucks up the timeline so he in silver go back in time to beat his own ass to stop him from killing guy.

The presumption that me suggesting that he has a unique perspective somehow eliminates all flaws from this character, is baffling. To say the least

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And none of that addresses Shadow's actual personality; he has a dark backstory, and therefore has more insight than everyone doesn't make for compelling storytelling.

More insight in all situations ? No shadow's like 2 years old. an unique perspective that might provide him more insight in certain situations ? Yes and might cause him to fuck up in others yes?

The thing i'm proposing is not unique in any regard. I'm gonna this super hero, his name batman. Its literally that. Or Iron man, or wolverine, or the hulk this is very common super hero archetype and I am confused how you got here.

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Shadow, to me, is always at his best when his flaws cause friction with people and he's forced to compromise to get the job done. That is satisfying; characters overcoming themselves to succeed.

Shadow is the most interesting to me, when he approaches a situation in how own way. Whether it works out or not is here nor there, but for me what makes him and the other characters interesting is perspective.

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This is what I mean right here; Amy had no effect on Shadow's life or decisions and she just jogged his memory and nothing more. That's so very boring.

Yeah because the two characters are largely willing to let the other live and live and I don't really think there's much to mine there. That doesn't mean anyone else couldn't?

I personally think blaze and shadow interactions would be amazing. Blaze is the ruler of this kingdom protecting people and making sure their well being is ok, and I can totally see blaze not vibing with how shadow conducts himself because he is essentially a violent vigilante not actually helping anything but making things worse. I already mentioned the time travel silver murder thing and the first thing I referenced in reference to a stoy where shadow was wrong. Not about everything, knuckles being kinda bad at his job is a fair take , but for shadow to assume he can just interject himself into other's lives and solver their problems . That's a flaw its a flaw I like about him, but its a flaw and it could lead to so many interesting stories, with him being somewhat overbearing

I am confused as to how you got to this idea I don't want flawed shadow, him having a unique perspective does not make him not flawed. It just makes able to see situations from a different angle for better or for worse