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[Nepenthe]

I'm a metal Sonic fan and I've not balked.

Notice that I said--

It's very rare that I see a Metal Sonic fan not balk at me...

-- not that it's impossible.

And the ironic thing to me about the quagmire about Shadow "deserving" to win or not is that it is excessively easily argued that he himself is the least bad element of all of the shitty games of that period, even ShtH, mainly because in later games he's written so deadpan and stoic that there's nothing overtly offensive about himself as a character, which is notable in a series where a character's popularity can drop like a rock simply because they had the misfortune to have bad voice direction. To me he's less a victim of true writing bastardization and moreso a victim of Sega's shitty financial schemes. But that's not even an argument worth entertaining. ShtH the game was bad so fuck Shadow, I guess.

[Diesel]

 

Blaze defends Sol Emeralds. Seven seperate alternate emeralds. Knuckles likes to make sure of the well-being of the Chaos Emeralds, BUT he protects the Master Emerald.

You're clutching at the straws. It doesn't matter how many emeralds they guard; at the end of the day, they're both still emerald guardians. The number of emeralds they guard doesn't make much of difference.

Blaze lives in a royal family, and from what we'd assume comes from a high-class society. She also almost is never around her kingdom (we've never even seen it in the games). If anything, she's the anti-thesis to Knuckles in regards to disposition: he's the last of an ancient civilization, living life alone while protecting an emerald, mostly secluded to a single island and never leaving much.

That's just one difference. Doesn't change the fact Blaze, like Knuckles, is an emerald guardian who was initially a loner and didn't open up to others until she met Sonic. There isn't anyone else in the series like that.

Not to mention her entire personality being different from Knuckles.

Not entirely. They're both serious minded individuals who prefer to handle things on their own than with others. 

 

Man, there was no focus ever put on him being a loner as if it was a bad thing

Sure, there was. Knuckles' loner nature is what made him so gullible and put him at odds with Sonic. Due to having been a loner for so long, he didn't understand social cues, which helped make him easily fooled by Eggman.

nor that Sonic changed anything about him.

He did. Knuckles initially thought Sonic was his enemy, but after working together with Sonic, he came to consider him as a friend.

Knuckles was never characterized as emotionally introverted, much less had that as a big part of his character development. His Sonic 3 profile even states that he's not good with girls, meaning there is precedence for some interaction with other animals on his island which in turn lends some credence to his gullibility in the face of Eggman, whereas Blaze wasn't all that trusting of anybody, probably because she's royalty whereas Knuckles isn't.

Knuckles being shy around girls goes to show that he, like Blaze, can be shy. Not in the same way as Blaze, but still shy nonetheless.

There isn't any other recurring character that's shy in any way.

On top of that, Knuckles is not cool-headed, nor female, nor concerned with his body image, nor afraid of heights, nor any of the other things that actually make Blaze a distinct character. 

Knuckles actually has been shown to be cool-headed; he was pretty chillax in Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes and Sonic Generations. 

As for Knuckles not being female nor concerned with his body image nor afraid of heights, you're clutching at the straws. None of those things make Knuckles and Blaze all that different from each other.  Two characters being opposite in gender doesn't say anything about their actual characterization. And Blaze being concerned about her body image and afraid of heights are very minor; the former is never touched upon in the games and the latter is only touched upon in Sonic Rush Adventure.

Now, if Blaze was like how she was in Sonic 2006, THEN she wouldn't be a rip-off of Knuckles. She was barely similar to Knuckles in that game.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Diesel

[LindseyWalker]

Could've fooled me that the fanbase doesn't think there's anything wrong with Metal. It's very rare that I see a Metal Sonic fan not balk at me whenever I point out that he's not actually done anything in the games and get immediately defensive and try to explain to me how he actually is indeed awesome sauce. 

It's not balking, it's trying to defend him as a character and show he has some appeal. I bet if I wrote that Shadow has always been an emo character Shadow fans would 'balk' too.

Why do we need this 'me or them' approach. Why can't we like Shadow and Metal and not just prefer one? I like Shadow in Sonic Adventure 2, I just prefer Metal in Sonic CD. 'Tis personal preference.

Edited August 29, 2015 by LindseyWalker

[Kuzu]

 

I...

Dude, there's a reason those games are brought up.

Because they existed. And not only that, but Shadow had a lot to do with them. A lot. Like, Shadow's entire comeback was a more important moment to him than anything happening to anyone else in Heroes, and Shadow's game is entirely based around him. You can't just say "oh I love Silver" and then tell others to forget about 06 before you judge them for it. :v

The reason these games keep coming up is because they have everything to do with the character. If you liked Shadow in SA2, then I hate to say it but that Shadow is long gone from the series thanks to what they've written around him. Do I hate that? Yes, quite a lot. But if he comes back, EVEN if they don't reference back to it, that stigma and everything about Shadow is still stuck to him, like a leech. It'd take an entire reboot of said character just to get away from it, it's so infused with him at this point.

Those characters have good reputations and nothing to hold them down otherwise.  

They existed over 10 years ago; Shadow has made other appearances with far more prominent roles since then, but I guess those don't matter because they either showed him in an actual decent or inoffensive light and Shadow isn't allowed to be seen as anything else but a tumor on the franchise :\

Yet, Tails & Knuckles can literally appear in any capacity and do next to nothing and the fandom is quick to argue their cases of being "amazing" characters. Its hypocritical and I hate how this seems to be an indoctrinated law within the series. To the point where it seems like a sin to actually like Shadow and if you try to defend him, you'll just be throw in the face with the same old "He was terrible in 06, Shadow, and Heroes" spiel. But if I did the same to Tails & Knuckles, I'll just beaten in the face on good they are and "deserve" their praise more than Shadow. 

So in short, most people think Shadow is a terrible, irredeemable character with nothing more to offer. I disagree and I really don't give a shit about those people and will continue to like him.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Kuzu the Boloedge

[Nepenthe]

 

 

There isn't any other recurring character that's shy in any way.

Knuckles being shy around girls is the exact same as Blaze being shy around everyone? Okay. So is Elise a Knuckles rip-off then considering she was also very shy and withdrawn? Hell, is Knuckles a rip-off of Sonic since Sonic is shy around Amy? Is any shared character trait between two characters meaning they're rip-offs? Tails doesn't agree with Eggman's ambitions to take over the world? Obvious Sonic rip-off.

It's not balking, it's trying to defend him as a character and show he has some appeal. I bet if I wrote that Shadow has always been an emo character Shadow fans would 'balk' too.

Why do we need this 'me or them' approach. Why can't we like Shadow and Metal and not just prefer one? I like Shadow in Sonic Adventure 2, I just prefer Metal in Sonic CD. 'Tis personal preference.

For one thing, you are literally the one who brought up Shadow in the current conversation about Metal Sonic and you compared the two at Shadow's expense, which is a common thing for Metal Sonic fans and even some still-burnt Knuckles fans to do when trying to uplift their respective characters. Everyone was content to talk about Metal Sonic's strengths and weaknesses as a character on his own merits until you brought Shadow up.

Subsequently no one is saying you can't like Metal Sonic or prefer him over Shadow. We're saying it's annoying that the fandom very rarely recognizes the flaws of his game incarnation.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Nepenthe

[Wraith]

They existed over 10 years ago; Shadow has made other appearances with far more prominent roles since then, but I guess those don't matter because they either showed him in an actual decent or inoffensive light and Shadow isn't allowed to be seen as anything else but a tumor on the franchise :\

Shadow pretty much hasn't been prominent in anything since 06 so I don't even know what you're talking about here. I guess he was the best character in that game but that's really not much of an accomplishment in a game that has some of the worst characters in the entire franchise in it.

 

Yet, Tails & Knuckles can literally appear in any capacity and do next to nothing and the fandom is quick to argue their cases of being "amazing" characters. Its hypocritical and I hate how this seems to be an indoctrinated law within the series. To the point where it seems like a sin to actually like Shadow and if you try to defend him, you'll just be throw in the face with the same old "He was terrible in 06, Shadow, and Heroes" spiel. But if I did the same to Tails & Knuckles, I'll just beaten in the face on good they are and "deserve" their praise more than Shadow. 

To be fair, there aren't a lot of cases of Tails and Knuckles being bad. Tails literally had a clean record of being at least decent up until Sonic Lost World. I can't think of many characters that held on that long. Maybe people argue that they're good characters in comparison to Shadow because there's actually plenty of evidence of that being the case. Not saying you can't defend Shadow from his detractors, but why bring Tails and Knuckles into it? 

 

[Diesel]

Knuckles being shy around girls is the exact same as Blaze being shy around everyone? Okay.

I never said it was. I said it goes to show that both Knuckles and Blaze are shy characters. Not shy in the same way, but shy nonetheless. No other recurring character in the series is shy.

[Nepenthe]

I never said it was. I said it goes to show that both Knuckles and Blaze are shy characters. Not shy in the same way, but shy nonetheless. No other recurring character in the series is shy.

If you're not saying they're directly comparable, why bring them up as proof that Blaze is a direct rip-off of Knuckles? Sonic is shy around Amy. Tails was considered shy until he met Sonic (Knuckles ripped him off then!), Elise is shy and withdrawn, Silver also acts shy around Amy, Big deliberately goes out of his way to not really interact with people at all. You're going to have to do better than this.

[Diesel]

Oh, yeah, my bad. Their shyness can't really be compared. The only similarities (being emerald guardians that were initially loners and didn't open up to others until after met Sonic) still stand though.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Diesel

[Nepenthe]

Oh, yeah, my bad. Their shyness can't really be compared. The only similarities still stand though.

The only other similarity is that they're Emerald guardians. That's literally it. They don't share species, gender, color, clothing, powers, abilities, likes, dislikes, social status, or notable personal relationships outside of being Sonic's ally. And Knuckles wasn't ever an introvert that needed Sonic's help to learn socialization skills, my God.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Nepenthe

[Your Vest Friend]

And we're not even sure of Blaze still being a guardian, Sonic Runners was really odd with that. 

[Diesel]

The only other similarity is that they're Emerald guardians. That's literally it. 

That's a very big similarity. Nobody else in the series is an emerald guardian.

And they also were initially loners that only opened up to others until after they met Sonic. And they both have fire powers.

[Nepenthe]

Holy fucking shit, Knuckles did not ever need Sonic's help with expressing more extroverted qualities. That has never been a part of his character or arc in the games, Jesus fix it.

[Oscillo]

That's a very big similarity. Nobody else in the series is an emerald guardian.

Blaze & Big are both cats. A cat is a species, so a fairly big similarity. There are no other cats in the series (except Honey who is almost certainly retconned). Ergo, Blaze is a rip-off of Big?

[Celestia]

I want one of the girls to win!!

...Yeah, that's not gonna happen, is it?

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

And they both have fire powers.

What? Knuckles can create explosions by igniting the hydrogen in the air with his punches, but he's certainly not a fire bender like Blaze is. 

[Komodin]

... I'm still not getting how Blaze is a "ripoff" of Knuckles because of their being guardians of some gems with instances of introversion.

[Kuzu]

Shadow pretty much hasn't been prominent in anything since 06 so I don't even know what you're talking about here. I guess he was the best character in that game but that's really not much of an accomplishment in a game that has some of the worst characters in the entire franchise in it.

 

Black Knight, Free Riders, the comics, etc etc. Those do technically count you know. And even if 06 was bad, like you said, he was still the best character in it. Just because the overall game was bad doesn't mean there weren't parts about it that weren't good. 

Or more simply: 06 being terrible =/= Shadow being terrible in 06.

 

To be fair, there aren't a lot of cases of Tails and Knuckles being bad. Tails literally had a clean record of being at least decent up until Sonic Lost World. I can't think of many characters that held on that long. Maybe people argue that they're good characters in comparison to Shadow because there's actually plenty of evidence of that being the case. Not saying you can't defend Shadow from his detractors, but why bring Tails and Knuckles into it? 

 

I only really brought up Tails & Knuckles because Azoo did and just used them as an example. 

And yea, you can argue that Tails & Knuckles are less offensive than Shadow, but at the same time there are still points in the series where they haven't done much or were bad themselves, Tails in Lost World like you said. You yourself said Tails was pretty decent up until then.

So why is it that whenever someone tries to do the same for Shadow post-06, its just met with the same arguments against him that I always hear. Or rather, why is it that Shadow is not allowed to live down his follies despite making other appearances. 

 

[Diesel]

 

Holy fucking shit, Knuckles did not ever need Sonic's help with expressing more extroverted qualities. That has never been a part of his character or arc in the games, Jesus fix it.

He still only opened up to others until after he met Sonic, like Blaze.

Blaze & Big are both cats. A cat is a species, so a fairly big similarity. There are no other cats in the series (except Honey who is almost certainly retconned). Ergo, Blaze is a rip-off of Big?

Two characters both being emerald guardians is a bigger similarity than two characters both being the same species.

Although Blaze should have been a species other than a cat, seeing as Big already was a cat. Having two cat characters is boring.

What? Knuckles can create explosions by igniting the hydrogen in the air with his punches, but he's certainly not a fire bender like Blaze is. 

Knuckles still has abilities related to fire, though, like Blaze.

[LindseyWalker]

Holy fucking shit, Knuckles did not ever need Sonic's help with expressing more extroverted qualities. That has never been a part of his character or arc in the games, Jesus fix it.

Well he was a lone wolf before Sonic befriended him on Angel Island, so there's that.

Don't get so wound up!

[Oscillo]

Two characters both being emerald guardians is a bigger similarity than two characters both being the same species.

I'd thought most people consider them similar in importance? To be fair It's too subjective to be worth debating in this context.

Although Blaze should have been a species other than a cat, seeing as Big already was a cat. Having two cat characters is boring.

What do you think of Amy & Shadow being hedgehogs, considering they both share Sonic's species & are more similar in appearance than Blaze & Big?

[Dejimon11]

And we're not even sure of Blaze still being a guardian, Sonic Runners was really odd with that. 

Whatchu talking about VEDJ-F?

[Your Vest Friend]

Whatchu talking about VEDJ-F?

You know, her in-game profile, quoted ad-verbatim;

Blaze was once the guardian of the Sol Emeralds. These duties made her rather shy - but then she met Sonic! Blaze travels freely between her dimension and Sonic's.

Weird as hell saying as there was no sign she'd stopped. 

[Wraith]

Black Knight, Free Riders, the comics, etc etc. Those do technically count you know. And even if 06 was bad, like you said, he was still the best character in it. Just because the overall game was bad doesn't mean there weren't parts about it that weren't good. 

Or more simply: 06 being terrible =/= Shadow being terrible in 06.

I only really brought up Tails & Knuckles because Azoo did and just used them as an example. 

And yea, you can argue that Tails & Knuckles are less offensive than Shadow, but at the same time there are still points in the series where they haven't done much or were bad themselves, Tails in Lost World like you said. You yourself said Tails was pretty decent up until then.

So why is it that whenever someone tries to do the same for Shadow post-06, its just met with the same arguments against him that I always hear. Or rather, why is it that Shadow is not allowed to live down his follies despite making other appearances. 

 

In Black Knight he's the most generic of the three nights, none of which actually affect the plot all that much to begin with, and unlike the other two he doesn't have two cutscenes devoted to Sonic interacting with him. He just gets one and kind of fucks off after that. It also doesn't help that he's the most braindead boss in the game. Not one of his finer moments all things considered, yeah?

In Free Riders him and Rouge might as well have been Team Rocket, which I found hilarious but it's probably not what most people are looking for. 

And I don't actively follow the comics so I can't speak for those, but the comics are really niche. They're not the face of the franchise like the games are. The majority of people who've played the Sonic games haven't touched them. 

In conclusion, Shadow doesn't really have a major role in any of the things he mentioned, while he DOES have one in the games widely considered to be some of the worst in the franchise. It's what people remember Shadow for because Sega hasn't given them anything else. Tails and Knuckles don't have this problem because the roles they're most known for are still the Classics and Adventure games where they actually do add a lot of positive things to the game. Shadow will live down his follies as soon as he's given the chance to, but until then, people are going to judge him based off what they've been given, and what they've been given just isn't a good look for him.  

[Nepenthe]

 

He still only opened up to others until after he met Sonic, like Blaze.

You keep distilling their similarities into such broad, simplistic terms in order to keep trying to force this argument. "Opening up to others after he met Sonic" implies that he was closed off to everyone until Sonic brought about a positive change. This is nonsense that doesn't take into account the actual aspects of the narrative going on here. Knuckles was never closed off to people, he didn't trust people who he believed were the villains like every other hero ever. The issue was that he simply didn't know who the villains were, and had he known from the outset he would've automatically been on Sonic's side. This is not the same as Blaze's character arc. You're completely retelling a story of gullibility into one of locked away emotions by stretching so much that holes are appearing in the fabric of your argument. You might as well say she's a rip-off because they have stripes on their shoes at this point.

Well he was a lone wolf before Sonic befriended him on Angel Island, so there's that.

Don't get so wound up!

If someone says that Sonic is a rip-off of the sky because they're both blue, I'm going to get frustrated at the intellectual dishonesty.