What's the beef with Cream the Rabbit?

[Skull Leader]

3 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

 

I would say so, yes. 

Also Knuckles doesn't just have "privileges" for sticking around based on being in the Genesis games; he hardly has gotten much more out of that than most other characters have lately.  What Knuckles has is something he is willing to fight for.  His personality can clash with Sonic's, but it doesn't usually stop him from being an ally.  I think people make a bit too much about how Knuckles is supposed to be the Guardian of the Master Emerald and thus consider it out of character when he partakes in stories unrelated to that; the bigger point is that Knuckles has a sense of honor that motivates him to do important jobs well, and what those jobs are can vary.

Amy is like a more intimate, zoomed in version of Sonic; he goes fast and performs heroic acts related to the "big picture", while Amy takes a liking to individuals, tries to befriend and help them, and she isn't so much aggressive as she's willing to beat the shit out of those who harm these friends.  That's the key difference between her and Cream; I can just as easily see Amy befriending a chao but if the chao is kidnapped, I can see Amy going on a destructive rampage to save it in a way I can't see Cream doing unless she gets a substitute to do the fighting for her (as was the case in Shadow the Hedgehog). 

People keep saying to me that I shouldn't base my whole perspective of Cream on how she acted in Sonic Battle.  I don't; I see her based on what Yuji Naka declared to be the intent with her character, but her appearance in Sonic Battle was when Cream became, to me, the symbol of the greatest weakness in the Adventure era.  Back then, they were too fond of cramming all sorts of disparate ideas into their series, diluting what might have been a more solid premise with less ideas, and while I think in retrospect I liked it better than the alternative that came afterward, putting Cream in a fighting game was one of the key moments where yes; desire to feature all sorts of characters came at the expense of the sort of game they were in.

Again, this doesn't mean there is no place for Cream, but there sure doesn't seem to be much one in this series as it currently exists.  On that note, though it pains me to say it, the Wisps do fit better than chao for what Sonic is about at its core, but for what it's worth I still think Tails and Knuckles are better than the Wisps at that.  If they're going to have exploration in the games, even if it's just to collect medals, it's far more fluid to tie abilities useful to exploration to standard character movesets than depletable, stop-and-start power-ups.

Granted, not even Tails, the character with the most spotlight in the last decade, has done anything of actual worth. If anything, he has only gotten worse in the last two main games.

However, just like how you mention that Cream being thrown into a type of game that has nothing to do with the pacifist context of her character, I feel it's only fair to point out how Knuckles too has been thrown into stories that like in Cream's case, has nothing to do with what his character is about.

I feel likewise that people defending Knuckles also focus on the ME thing and ignore a much more important issue here: what is it that drives Knuckles into caring for Sonic so much that he'll go AWOL on the ME?

Tails and Amy make it very explicit what their motivations are, and while they do serve to tell why they are involved, they can branch off into something different, like Tails helping Sonic in either an active role or a passive one, while Amy helps some other character with their own subplot that is still connected to the main one. 

Knuckles on the other hand, has been lacking in BOTH departments. It is not just that the ME is no longer at risk since Eggman pretty much lost all interest in it, but I feel that ST is really reaching for even the most mundane of excuses just to have Knuckles show up, which explains why we had things like him delivering letters in 06. Like, what was the point, other than remind us that Knuckles exists? Not to mention, why must he always, everytime, has to be pegged to Sonic and Tails, if not because the very deliberate decision to evoke memories of S3&K when having them together?

Now this wouldn't be as bad if at least other characters weren't affected or robbed from having a chance to shine had it not been for the obvious favoritism that ST displays towards Knuckles, like seen in Sonic Forces. Where is the logic behind making Knuckles the commander of the resistance when he neither has the qualities nor aptitudes of a leader, but also lacks the motivation to step in the moment Sonic goes MIA? I think it speaks volumes when the IDW comic suggested very clearly who really was organizing things, and the games have enough material to back it up. Personally, i think it was just an excuse to, again, shoehorn Knuckles into the cover to evoke S3&K nostalgia at the expense of both his character, and robbing Amy or any of the other qualified characters like Vector or Rouge from having some spotlight because, God forbid the Genesis character is not paid his due. So not only Knuckles is limited to appear for the sake of showing up, but also screws others. 

[Scritch the Cat]

On 2/4/2019 at 11:14 PM, Skull Leader said:

Granted, not even Tails, the character with the most spotlight in the last decade, has done anything of actual worth. If anything, he has only gotten worse in the last two main games.

However, just like how you mention that Cream being thrown into a type of game that has nothing to do with the pacifist context of her character, I feel it's only fair to point out how Knuckles too has been thrown into stories that like in Cream's case, has nothing to do with what his character is about.

I feel likewise that people defending Knuckles also focus on the ME thing and ignore a much more important issue here: what is it that drives Knuckles into caring for Sonic so much that he'll go AWOL on the ME?

Tails and Amy make it very explicit what their motivations are, and while they do serve to tell why they are involved, they can branch off into something different, like Tails helping Sonic in either an active role or a passive one, while Amy helps some other character with their own subplot that is still connected to the main one. 

Knuckles on the other hand, has been lacking in BOTH departments. It is not just that the ME is no longer at risk since Eggman pretty much lost all interest in it, but I feel that ST is really reaching for even the most mundane of excuses just to have Knuckles show up, which explains why we had things like him delivering letters in 06. Like, what was the point, other than remind us that Knuckles exists? Not to mention, why must he always, everytime, has to be pegged to Sonic and Tails, if not because the very deliberate decision to evoke memories of S3&K when having them together?

Now this wouldn't be as bad if at least other characters weren't affected or robbed from having a chance to shine had it not been for the obvious favoritism that ST displays towards Knuckles, like seen in Sonic Forces. Where is the logic behind making Knuckles the commander of the resistance when he neither has the qualities nor aptitudes of a leader, but also lacks the motivation to step in the moment Sonic goes MIA? I think it speaks volumes when the IDW comic suggested very clearly who really was organizing things, and the games have enough material to back it up. Personally, i think it was just an excuse to, again, shoehorn Knuckles into the cover to evoke S3&K nostalgia at the expense of both his character, and robbing Amy or any of the other qualified characters like Vector or Rouge from having some spotlight because, God forbid the Genesis character is not paid his due. So not only Knuckles is limited to appear for the sake of showing up, but also screws others. 

The difference between Knuckles in many plots and Cream in SB is that Knuckles is more willing to get out of his comfort zone.  Lots of things Knuckles doesn't like, he'll do if it's for the greater good or he's convinced it is.  That, and Knuckles was created to be badass and that resonates a lot better with many fans than a pacifist does.

If they're trying to invoke Genesis nostalgia by bringing back Knuckles, though, they're doing pretty badly at it since catering to people who remember that should involve making Knuckles playable.  These are first and foremost games, not an attempt at deep narrative, so a pitiful plot excuse to bring a character who is fun to play as makes sense...if you play as that character.  However, insofar as nobody is being made playable again, sometimes it seems like they're writing excuses for them to be NPCs in games just because they fear that those of us mad many characters aren't playable anymore will just plain give up on this series if they don't show up at all.

[DabigRG]

11 hours ago, StaticMania said:

She is?

She's had far more game appearances, much more focus, for better or worse probably the most interpretations of any character, and due to being a classic character, has arguably evolved the most from what she originally was.

Poor Cream only has less than half of the first two.

[Kuzu]

15 hours ago, Skull Leader said:

Granted, not even Tails, the character with the most spotlight in the last decade, has done anything of actual worth. If anything, he has only gotten worse in the last two main games.

However, just like how you mention that Cream being thrown into a type of game that has nothing to do with the pacifist context of her character, I feel it's only fair to point out how Knuckles too has been thrown into stories that like in Cream's case, has nothing to do with what his character is about.

I feel likewise that people defending Knuckles also focus on the ME thing and ignore a much more important issue here: what is it that drives Knuckles into caring for Sonic so much that he'll go AWOL on the ME?

Tails and Amy make it very explicit what their motivations are, and while they do serve to tell why they are involved, they can branch off into something different, like Tails helping Sonic in either an active role or a passive one, while Amy helps some other character with their own subplot that is still connected to the main one. 

Knuckles on the other hand, has been lacking in BOTH departments. It is not just that the ME is no longer at risk since Eggman pretty much lost all interest in it, but I feel that ST is really reaching for even the most mundane of excuses just to have Knuckles show up, which explains why we had things like him delivering letters in 06. Like, what was the point, other than remind us that Knuckles exists? Not to mention, why must he always, everytime, has to be pegged to Sonic and Tails, if not because the very deliberate decision to evoke memories of S3&K when having them together?

Now this wouldn't be as bad if at least other characters weren't affected or robbed from having a chance to shine had it not been for the obvious favoritism that ST displays towards Knuckles, like seen in Sonic Forces. Where is the logic behind making Knuckles the commander of the resistance when he neither has the qualities nor aptitudes of a leader, but also lacks the motivation to step in the moment Sonic goes MIA? I think it speaks volumes when the IDW comic suggested very clearly who really was organizing things, and the games have enough material to back it up. Personally, i think it was just an excuse to, again, shoehorn Knuckles into the cover to evoke S3&K nostalgia at the expense of both his character, and robbing Amy or any of the other qualified characters like Vector or Rouge from having some spotlight because, God forbid the Genesis character is not paid his due. So not only Knuckles is limited to appear for the sake of showing up, but also screws others. 

I don't...really think this mindset is all that helpful tbh. Because you're talking about the characters as if they can only serve their specific function and role, and not them as...well, characters. Well, you do that for Amy for obvious reasons, but you're really not willing to give that same courtesy to the others, particularly Knuckles out of some perceived slight that you believe he's "robbing" characters of their "rightful" place. 

I get that you're a huge fan of Amy and want what's best for her as any person would for their favorite character, but that doesn't mean she is "deserved" anything. No character "deserves" anything, because that type of attitude kind of reeks of entitlement and sparks debates. 

As said, the way they've used Knuckles isn't even in the context of how he was originally introduced in the Classic days, so saying he's only used to pander to the classic crowd is ridiculous. He's not used any differently from how the rest of the non-Sonic, Tails, and Eggman cast have been. He's hardly even interacted with Sonic and Tails for like...I don't even remember. So it has less to do with "Pandering to the Classic days" and just straight up not knowing what to do with the character period, which extends to every character including Amy. 

 

But the main difference between Knuckles` usage and Cream's is that Knuckles` character is not one that is adverse to violence. The exact opposite actually as Knuckles is prone to violence first when it comes to handling business. In an action series, that's a way more valuable asset than anything Cream could reasonably do. 

[Wraith]

18 hours ago, Skull Leader said:

I feel likewise that people defending Knuckles also focus on the ME thing and ignore a much more important issue here: what is it that drives Knuckles into caring for Sonic so much that he'll go AWOL on the ME?

Even if we were to ignore that Knuckles and Sonic are friends, this isn't just about what Sonic wants to do. It's for the good of the world, and it's hard to imagine a version of Knuckles that just wouldn't help Sonic out if the stakes were as high as they usually are. 

[StaticMania]

What if...after Knuckles was introduced, he was Neutral.

A+ idea.

[Scritch the Cat]

If they could just explain what's going on with the Master Emerald when Knuckles is away from it, that would fix a lot.  Possible ideas:

*G.U.N. protects it, now being aware it has useful power to counteract the Chaos Emeralds; something that could come in handy if an unsavory element gets its hands on them.

*Last time Angel Island sank without the Emerald on it, it landed in a safe place, so instead of returning the Master Emerald to its pedestal, Knuckles hid it.

*Other echidnas emerged off screen to take over the duty.  While we can't go back to the version of them in Chronicles due to Ken Penders' lawsuits, there's no restriction against Sega using the idea of other echidnas being around.

[Gumbit]

1 hour ago, Scritch the Cat said:

*Other echidnas emerged off screen to take over the duty.  While we can't go back to the version of them in Chronicles due to Ken Penders' lawsuits, there's no restriction against Sega using the idea of other echidnas being around.

- This the best solution , Shade could be reintroduced , but with adjustments . She could share guarding duty with Knuckles . Also  I think Knuckles and Shade should be the only echidnas around , I don't want archie situation to repeated . 

[Salamander]

I'm aware it's not a Master Emerald thread, but they could probably handwave it by just saying that Tails helped Knuckles to install new traps and monitoring devices.

[Sonic Fan J]

14 hours ago, Wraith said:

Even if we were to ignore that Knuckles and Sonic are friends, this isn't just about what Sonic wants to do. It's for the good of the world, and it's hard to imagine a version of Knuckles that just wouldn't help Sonic out if the stakes were as high as they usually are. 

But why are they friends and what investment does Knuckles have in Sonic to just hang out with him? Almost every interaction they have outside of the OVA they are simply antagonizing each other if the stakes aren't high enough to actually focus on the task at hand. At least Tails and Amy have the built in excuse of hero worshipping Sonic and wanting to be a part of his life as a result to justify their constant appearances. Even Cream as being described as Amy's friend has more attachment to Sonic just by virtue of Amy's attachment. Sonic saved Knuckles magic rock once while Knuckles kept trying to punch him in the face and drop him into traps and suddenly they're best friends. What? And enough with the whole save the world routine. Most of Sonic's adventurers which result in him battling Eggman the two of them meet by sheer coincidence with Sonic usually having no clue what Eggman is up to. This whole routine of Sonic being the worlds white blood cell to Eggman's constant incursions is really ridiculous as it ignores fundamental aspects of the characters and their defined long term activities. I get Knuckles is popular and everyone wants him around, but for crying out loud don't just say he's Sonic's friend and ally in defending the world because neither character is described in supplementary materials or in world in a way to so off-handedly use that as your reasoning. If you're just going to handwave it hat's one thing, but if you're going to try and defend it add more than some disingenuous fluff. For example, because Knuckles is loyal, when his own endeavors take him away from his self imposed isolation on Angel Island he'll help out Sonic when he encounters him as repayment for both doubting Sonic when they first met and for saving the Master Emerald when he came up short which also ties into his rivalry and desire to one up Sonic when he bumps into him. Boom! Just like that Knuckles is justified and you never even have to mention the Master Emerald again, but it isn't just they are friends and they save the world together. We're talking about treating the characters as exactly that yet your defense of Knuckles completely discards it and who Sonic is a character completely undermining your efforts. Sorry if I've come off as over the top aggressive but as someone who also enjoys having Knuckles around because I enjoy his character I want to see his character play into why he is there so just calling Sonic and friends the Justice Friends and calling that your defense just gets under my skin. Again sorry for railing, but I hope I made my point clear. Just, if you're going to defend him and his being Sonic's second or third wart at least use who he is as a character to justify it if character and narrative is the basis of including him. If you were just talking gameplay then sure, I've got no argument, but when you say Knuckles helping Sonic out is for the good of the world you're implying narrative and ignoring the fact that if left to their own devices the two would rarely ever meet up simply because unlike Tails and Amy, Knuckles has no reason to be constantly seeking out and trying to spend time with Sonic and Sonic is always in search of his next adventure. It doesn't fit the characters to say that they hang out all the time stalking Eggman just waiting for him to try something so they can relish messing up his plans and getting a good chortle at his expense. That is not who they are.

-----

Anyway, back on topic, much as Cream doesn't interest me as a character it is fairly disingenuous of me to say that she adds nothing to the narrative or even Sonic's adventures. First and foremost she is considered a curious character, which means that she will poke her nose where it doesn't belong and get in trouble as a result. Well, Sonic just so happens to be an adventurer and daredevil adrenaline junky so Cream's antics would actually compliment Sonic's way of life just by making things more exciting. I could so easily right now see Sonic bringing Cream along on an adventure just to see what trouble her curiosity causes to make his next adventure more exciting positive that he can keep her safe regardless, even so much as enjoying the challenge of keeping her safe. Then there is also the fact that her presence would be a good way to stall Amy if she showed up and would also complicate an unexpected encounter with Eggman. Unquestionably she has potential to add to the franchise and selling her short as easy as it is is just being wat unimaginative. Now that said, if you just don't like that's fine as everyone is entitled to their opinion, but she really isn't all that limited of a character and offers a lot more than most of us give her credit for.

[Wraith]

21 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

But why are they friends and what investment does Knuckles have in Sonic to just hang out with him? Almost every interaction they have outside of the OVA they are simply antagonizing each other if the stakes aren't high enough to actually focus on the task at hand. At least Tails and Amy have the built in excuse of hero worshipping Sonic and wanting to be a part of his life as a result to justify their constant appearances. Even Cream as being described as Amy's friend has more attachment to Sonic just by virtue of Amy's attachment. Sonic saved Knuckles magic rock once while Knuckles kept trying to punch him in the face and drop him into traps and suddenly they're best friends. What? And enough with the whole save the world routine. Most of Sonic's adventurers which result in him battling Eggman the two of them meet by sheer coincidence with Sonic usually having no clue what Eggman is up to. This whole routine of Sonic being the worlds white blood cell to Eggman's constant incursions is really ridiculous as it ignores fundamental aspects of the characters and their defined long term activities. I get Knuckles is popular and everyone wants him around, but for crying out loud don't just say he's Sonic's friend and ally in defending the world because neither character is described in supplementary materials or in world in a way to so off-handedly use that as your reasoning. If you're just going to handwave it hat's one thing, but if you're going to try and defend it add more than some disingenuous fluff. For example, because Knuckles is loyal, when his own endeavors take him away from his self imposed isolation on Angel Island he'll help out Sonic when he encounters him as repayment for both doubting Sonic when they first met and for saving the Master Emerald when he came up short which also ties into his rivalry and desire to one up Sonic when he bumps into him. Boom! Just like that Knuckles is justified and you never even have to mention the Master Emerald again, but it isn't just they are friends and they save the world together. We're talking about treating the characters as exactly that yet your defense of Knuckles completely discards it and who Sonic is a character completely undermining your efforts. Sorry if I've come off as over the top aggressive but as someone who also enjoys having Knuckles around because I enjoy his character I want to see his character play into why he is there so just calling Sonic and friends the Justice Friends and calling that your defense just gets under my skin. Again sorry for railing, but I hope I made my point clear. Just, if you're going to defend him and his being Sonic's second or third wart at least use who he is as a character to justify it if character and narrative is the basis of including him. If you were just talking gameplay then sure, I've got no argument, but when you say Knuckles helping Sonic out is for the good of the world you're implying narrative and ignoring the fact that if left to their own devices the two would rarely ever meet up simply because unlike Tails and Amy, Knuckles has no reason to be constantly seeking out and trying to spend time with Sonic and Sonic is always in search of his next adventure. It doesn't fit the characters to say that they hang out all the time stalking Eggman just waiting for him to try something so they can relish messing up his plans and getting a good chortle at his expense. That is not who they are.

 

Your post is a lot of fluff that largely misinterperates what I've said. I usually don't bother with you because you have no idea how to be concise and you aren't really trying to make it better, but let's make this clear.

Knuckles and Sonic have been through enough scrapes together to be called friends. They rib eachother  because their friendship has a competitive edge but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. They've been allies for many games now, canonically. This isn't some fantasy world where every game after Sonic Adventure 2 didn't happen. Knuckles has gotten into action because he heard Eggman was causing trouble and that was enough in many cases across many mediums. You'll have to deal with the fact that that happened even if you don't like it. The Knuckles that cares only about protecting his rock isn't a thing. If you wish Sonic and Knuckles's friendship was fleshed out more, I'd agree with you, but they are friends and they do stop Eggman because they think it's the right thing to do. It doesn't matter that they aren't actively looking for him. Once they see something is up they move to squash it. That makes them inherently heroic in nature.

Obviously Sonic and Knuckles aren't part of a team that goes around being Eggman's personal minder, but at no point in my post did I suggest that. I merely suggested that Knuckles would absolutely help Sonic with Eggman if he knew Sonic needed help with Eggman. That's all the post suggests. You're taking an admittedly light post and tagging a bunch of implications to it I didn't mention. That's both not fair to me and a waste of time to you since you spent all this time writing a bunch of fluff that doesn't have to do with what I said.
 

[Sonic Fan J]

26 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Your post is a lot of fluff that largely misinterperates what I've said. I usually don't bother with you because you have no idea how to be concise and you aren't really trying to make it better, but let's make this clear.

Knuckles and Sonic have been through enough scrapes together to be called friends. They rib eachother  because their friendship has a competitive edge but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. They've been allies for many games now, canonically. This isn't some fantasy world where every game after Sonic Adventure 2 didn't happen. Knuckles has gotten into action because he heard Eggman was causing trouble and that was enough in many cases across many mediums. You'll have to deal with the fact that that happened even if you don't like it. The Knuckles that cares only about protecting his rock isn't a thing. If you wish Sonic and Knuckles's friendship was fleshed out more, I'd agree with you, but they are friends and they do stop Eggman because they think it's the right thing to do. It doesn't matter that they aren't actively looking for him. Once they see something is up they move to squash it. That makes them inherently heroic in nature.

Obviously Sonic and Knuckles aren't part of a team that goes around being Eggman's personal minder, but at no point in my post did I suggest that. I merely suggested that Knuckles would absolutely help Sonic with Eggman if he knew Sonic needed help with Eggman. That's all the post suggests. You're taking an admittedly light post and tagging a bunch of implications to it I didn't mention. That's both not fair to me and a waste of time to you since you spent all this time writing a bunch of fluff that doesn't have to do with what I said.
 

I'll work on being more concise in the future if that'll make my post more readable, but none of what you stated still resolves the matter of why is Knuckles ever there. If you don't understand why that bothers me outside of Heroes where we know Tails went to get Knuckles' help (why is beyond me since the invitation was addressed to Sonic Heroes whatever that was supposed to imply), here's the google translate of Knuckles' official Sonic Channel profile.

Quote

Amazing powerful Harimogura.

He lives by protecting a huge jewel called master emerald without knowing the reason alone at the island floating in the sky "Angel Island". It is the fate of the Knuckles, now it is the only being able to control the master emerald.

Sonic's rival and fight friend. If Sonic is "wind", he is the "mountain" decided to stay in one place. Because it is monkey and serious personality, there is one side that is easy to be cheated. It is also a treasure hunter and a user of Martial Arts. The power of Kobushi is intense and its punch breaks rocks. I also have special skills such as gliding and climbing.

They still actively describe him as protecting the Master Emerald and choosing to stay in one spot and that is where my problem comes from; if Knuckles stays in one spot and Sonic is always on the move how does Knuckles know what he is doing? SEGA uses Knuckles outside of how they want him to be perceived and it creates unnecessary confusion and is what gives birth to these types of discussions. You posit that Knuckles and Sonic's history in the games and across other media is enough to justify Knuckles just being there which is fine since if we go by the evidence of active use instead of intended use then frankly that's all Knuckles should be. He is Sonic's friend due to his history which informs his character but is totally ignored. It makes no sense and that is what gets under my skin, especially since you are using Knuckles history to support your stance while ignoring his history at the same time. Of course that's also what SEGA does so I can't fault you for that and my wanting better shouldn't change that, but if I ask why Knuckles is there and the only answer is because they are friends that answer only works for people who haven't been with the franchise since the beginning. A better answer even if I don't like is just that SEGA doesn't care and wants to cash in on Knuckles' popularity because that is the truth and is not beholden to the narrative. Of course though that is what set @Skull Leader off in the first place and always does is because he cares about the characters and narrative so SEGA just throwing it out to make money gets under his skin and I can understand that. Of course though SEGA is a business and the bottom line is all that matters, but since we are sharing our opinions and how we feel SEGA mishandles things their bottom line is just the cause of the symptoms that we are discussing.

Lastly, though I went off the deep end a bit there in the end I do mostly agree with you that it's hard not imagine Knuckles helping Sonic because they do have more than enough history between the two. My primary problem is why is Knuckles ever there based on SEGA still shilling him as Guardian of the Master Emerald who lives on Angel Island. It's why I left this suggestion to describe Knuckles' appearances

54 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

For example, because Knuckles is loyal, when his own endeavors take him away from his self imposed isolation on Angel Island he'll help out Sonic when he encounters him as repayment for both doubting Sonic when they first met and for saving the Master Emerald when he came up short which also ties into his rivalry and desire to one up Sonic when he bumps into him.

While a little wordy this pretty much covers all of my problems with Knuckles just being there and if SEGA would just confirm something similar I'd be all for it. That or just phase out Angel Island, the Master Emerald, and Knuckles being the last of his kind. If they stopped advertising it in all of his official bio's it'd be a lot easier to put behind me.

Anyway, apologies for again being all over the place and unconcise, but I hope this helps clarify things a little bit, or at least enough for us to stop derailing Cream's thread for Knuckles.

[Wraith]

3 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

I'll work on being more concise in the future if that'll make my post more readable, but none of what you stated still resolves the matter of why is Knuckles ever there. If you don't understand why that bothers me outside of Heroes where we know Tails went to get Knuckles' help (why is beyond me since the invitation was addressed to Sonic Heroes whatever that was supposed to imply), here's the google translate of Knuckles' official Sonic Channel profile.

They still actively describe him as protecting the Master Emerald and choosing to stay in one spot and that is where my problem comes from; if Knuckles stays in one spot and Sonic is always on the move how does Knuckles know what he is doing? SEGA uses Knuckles outside of how they want him to be perceived and it creates unnecessary confusion and is what gives birth to these types of discussions. You posit that Knuckles and Sonic's history in the games and across other media is enough to justify Knuckles just being there which is fine since if we go by the evidence of active use instead of intended use then frankly that's all Knuckles should be. He is Sonic's friend due to his history which informs his character but is totally ignored. It makes no sense and that is what gets under my skin, especially since you are using Knuckles history to support your stance while ignoring his history at the same time. Of course that's also what SEGA does so I can't fault you for that and my wanting better shouldn't change that, but if I ask why Knuckles is there and the only answer is because they are friends that answer only works for people who haven't been with the franchise since the beginning. A better answer even if I don't like is just that SEGA doesn't care and wants to cash in on Knuckles' popularity because that is the truth and is not beholden to the narrative. Of course though that is what set @Skull Leader off in the first place and always does is because he cares about the characters and narrative so SEGA just throwing it out to make money gets under his skin and I can understand that. Of course though SEGA is a business and the bottom line is all that matters, but since we are sharing our opinions and how we feel SEGA mishandles things their bottom line is just the cause of the symptoms that we are discussing.

Lastly, though I went off the deep end a bit there in the end I do mostly agree with you that it's hard not imagine Knuckles helping Sonic because they do have more than enough history between the two. My primary problem is why is Knuckles ever there based on SEGA still shilling him as Guardian of the Master Emerald who lives on Angel Island. It's why I left this suggestion to describe Knuckles' appearances

While a little wordy this pretty much covers all of my problems with Knuckles just being there and if SEGA would just confirm something similar I'd be all for it. That or just phase out Angel Island, the Master Emerald, and Knuckles being the last of his kind. If they stopped advertising it in all of his official bio's it'd be a lot easier to put behind me.

Anyway, apologies for again being all over the place and unconcise, but I hope this helps clarify things a little bit, or at least enough for us to stop derailing Cream's thread for Knuckles.

I'm not ignoring Knuckles's history. I'm simply suggesting that it's not far fetched for him to get active even though he does care about the master emerald a lot and will sit with it most of the time. I've been here since the beginning too. I just don't think it's ever been about one or the other. Even in the bio you posted it states that he's also a treasure hunter somehow so it can't be all encompassing. It's not worth it to put so much stock into it that you put it over the actual games and the ideas they present. 

Knuckles not guarding the Master Emerald at this point in time for a little while to help Sonic is something that can be explained away with a handwave. I'll grant you that they never actually bother to put that handwave in any of the games and they should but I feel like that if something can be explained away with a handwave it's really not that a big of a deal in the first place. I'm much more concerned with whether Knuckles's contribution to the experience at hand was positive. I'm willing to overlook some things if the answer is yes. 

Call me dismissive of the characters's histories or whatever but I don't think this aspect of Knuckles is worth focusing on so much over the clear friendship he has with Sonic and Tails among other things like his hatred of Eggman and at least some sense of right and wrong. There's more to these characters than their  bios that you can pick up on by just playing the games. You can assume Knuckles is at his perch most of the time, but not always. If you just want an explanation for that as a foot note fine but I think there's far bigger things to worry about when it comes to the characters and the writing, personally. 

I don't like seeing Sonic Tails Knuckles Amy etc. as paragons of justice but I think making it so they always need a personal reason to do anything goes too far in the other direction and sells them a little short as people. 

 

 

[Sonic Fan J]

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I'm not ignoring Knuckles's history. I'm simply suggesting that it's not far fetched for him to get active even though he does care about the master emerald a lot and will sit with it most of the time. I've been here since the beginning too. I just don't think it's ever been about one or the other. Even in the bio you posted it states that he's also a treasure hunter somehow so it can't be all encompassing. It's not worth it to put so much stock into it that you put it over the actual games and the ideas they present. 

Knuckles not guarding the Master Emerald at this point in time for a little while to help Sonic is something that can be explained away with a handwave. I'll grant you that they never actually bother to put that handwave in any of the games and they should but I feel like that if something can be explained away with a handwave it's really not that a big of a deal in the first place. I'm much more concerned with whether Knuckles's contribution to the experience at hand was positive. I'm willing to overlook some things if the answer is yes. 

Call me dismissive of the characters's histories or whatever but I don't think this aspect of Knuckles is worth focusing on so much over the clear friendship he has with Sonic and Tails among other things like his hatred of Eggman and at least some sense of right and wrong. There's more to these characters than their  bios that you can pick up on by just playing the games. You can assume Knuckles is at his perch most of the time, but not always. If you just want an explanation for that as a foot note fine but I think there's far bigger things to worry about when it comes to the characters and the writing, personally. 

I don't like seeing Sonic Tails Knuckles Amy etc. as paragons of justice but I think making it so they always need a personal reason to do anything goes too far in the other direction and sells them a little short as people. 

 

 

I think in the end we both pretty much want the same thing just with a preference for different ways to go about it. In my case it's the handwave being made an official part of Knuckles' bio so even his bad appearances don't bother me as much. I probably prefer it that way as well since Tails and Amy already have the handwave in the regards of being the sidekick and self proclaimed girlfriend whereas Knuckles bio more implies that he shouldn't be there from the get go but show up later while doing his own thing like he does in the OVA. Admittedly though I do give him a pass in Generations since it's obvious he was invited, but for the most part Knuckles' nuances make me want just that little bit more out of him be it in game or in supplementary materials so that way my sense of narrative style is offended. Significantly more so than Tails and Amy he as a character has a lot more going for him than Sonic and it's always kind of annoying when that is just ignored by SEGA when they still highlight it themselves.

-----

So on topic, does anyone have any thoughts to share about my suggestion of Cream being a boon to Sonic's daredevil and adrenaline aspects just by being on one of his adventures with her curiosity and inexperience having the potential to make things more interesting?

[Kuzu]

As said, there doesn't need to be this deep and complex reason for any character to get involved. I feel like whenever we talk about this, people make it way more complicated than it needs to be.

Yes, its important to have context, but it's not something that needs to be all that complicated. 

 

If Cream just randomly showed up in the next game as a tagalong, I wouldn't really care. What's important is what she contributes and how she does it.

[Sonic Fan J]

5 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

As said, there doesn't need to be this deep and complex reason for any character to get involved. I feel like whenever we talk about this, people make it way more complicated than it needs to be.

Yes, its important to have context, but it's not something that needs to be all that complicated. 

 

If Cream just randomly showed up in the next game as a tagalong, I wouldn't really care. What's important is what she contributes and how she does it.

I agree, simplicity is key for the most part. The problem is typically when the context just doesn't make sense like Knuckles delivering letters for Eggman in 06 then turning around and wanting to wreck him with Sonic. Even if you disregard Knuckles' history and supplementary material it just doesn't make sense how he acts in 06. If he doesn't like Eggman and wants to punch him in the face as it is why deliver the letter for him? It's bad context and foregoes any motivation on Knuckles' part to at least make it work. Sure 06 is plagued with bad writing, but it's not like it's gotten better since. 

The funny thing if Cream just showed up though I'd personally have an easier time swallowing it than Knuckles just because she is supposed to be the curious type, but even then without context that ties into that it could just as easily fall on it's face narratively. I mean let's take Dragon Ball Super: Broly for example. If say Gohan just suddenly joined the movie telling Goku and Vegeta he'd occupy Broly while the went and fused would that make sense? I mean he would be contributing, but the context of his actions wouldn't make any sense. He is unaware that Goku and Vegeta have ever fused and knows that Goku is stronger them him so getting involved would just make things worse. It's a case of context and character history and personality being more important than the contribution. So really, a proper mix of context and contribution while recognizing the characters' history, personality, motivations, and relationships is a necessity for a good narrative. Sure it doesn't have to be complicated in the end, but what goes into a simple moment is just as important as the moment itself.

[StaticMania]

That's assuming Eggman delivered that card to Knuckles in person or just directly handed it to him, because if he didn't...there's literally nothing wrong with that being the reason he shows up.

Anymore context than what Knuckles said would just be telling, but because the story doesn't context...people assume Eggman walked up to Knuckles, gave him the card, and then left.

[Sonic Fan J]

Well, Knuckles himself does say he saw Eggman outside the city

so it's not like we're just assuming. Though bringing it back up it's even worse than I remembered since Knuckles doesn't even give any reason for tagging along. He just delivers the letter, calls Eggman cocky, and then suddenly he's traveling with Sonic and Tails. There is absolutely no context for it which is really bad since 06 was supposedly supposed to be a reboot yet absolutely nothing is said about Knuckles in capacity.

[Kuzu]

I mean its 06...that statement should tell you everything. This isn't a Knuckles problem, this is Sega fucking sucks at basic narrative problem.

Literally 75% of the characters have no context or reasoning behind their actions, because the game doesn't give a shit.

It's really not that hard to understand

[Diogenes]

10 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Though bringing it back up it's even worse than I remembered since Knuckles doesn't even give any reason for tagging along. He just delivers the letter, calls Eggman cocky, and then suddenly he's traveling with Sonic and Tails.

Well that's the part where him being a friend and ally comes in. What's he going to do, deliver the message and then just leave?

That's not to say the whole thing works, though; the explanation for him showing up is shamelessly contrived and he never actually does anything meaningful. Once he's there it's natural for him to stick around, but they completely failed to justify him being there in the first place.

[StaticMania]

He's just there. Which applies to everyone who isn't Shadow, Rouge, and Eggman.

[Dash Speed]

Knuckles is a main friend two Sonic like Tails and Amy because Shadow exists as the aloof and detected rival to Sonic instead of Knux, and it basically makes no sense for Knux and Shadow to have the same lone wolf rival dynamic since it would rob one of them a purpose in being a deadly anti hero to foil sonic.

Knux never had a deadly rivalry with Sonic nor does he willingly dismiss Sonics purity in heroism for a more serious grim method. Knuckles has as much a pure heart as Sonic(despite being different in nature) in being a hero of peace and has a cocky way of doing it, if anything Sonic and Knuckles should be more bffs that tails and Amy are to Sonic.

Shadow on the other hand was made to antagonize Sonic and be a conflicting opponent to Sonic. Iizuka has stated they will never understand how they do things and will fight each other because of it, and it's treated more serious than sonic and knuckles conflict. Sonic treats Knuckles like a goofy brother than a competitive opponent to me. Shadoe gets more out of Sonic than Knux because Shadows the closest thing he has to an equal in power and speed.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Dash Speed said:

Knuckles is a main friend two Sonic like Tails and Amy because Shadow exists as the aloof and detected rival to Sonic instead of Knux, and it basically makes no sense for Knux and Shadow to have the same lone wolf rival dynamic since it would rob one of them a purpose in being a deadly anti hero to foil sonic.

Knux never had a deadly rivalry with Sonic nor does he willingly dismiss Sonics purity in heroism for a more serious grim method. Knuckles has as much a pure heart as Sonic(despite being different in nature) in being a hero of peace and has a cocky way of doing it, if anything Sonic and Knuckles should be more bffs that tails and Amy are to Sonic.

Shadow on the other hand was made to antagonize Sonic and be a conflicting opponent to Sonic. Iizuka has stated they will never understand how they do things and will fight each other because of it, and it's treated more serious than sonic and knuckles conflict. Sonic treats Knuckles like a goofy brother than a competitive opponent to me. Shadoe gets more out of Sonic than Knux because Shadows the closest thing he has to an equal in power and speed.

...He's not wrong.

.

3 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

 

-----

So on topic, does anyone have any thoughts to share about my suggestion of Cream being a boon to Sonic's daredevil and adrenaline aspects just by being on one of his adventures with her curiosity and inexperience having the potential to make things more interesting?

.

5 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

-----

Anyway, back on topic, much as Cream doesn't interest me as a character it is fairly disingenuous of me to say that she adds nothing to the narrative or even Sonic's adventures. First and foremost she is considered a curious character, which means that she will poke her nose where it doesn't belong and get in trouble as a result. Well, Sonic just so happens to be an adventurer and daredevil adrenaline junky so Cream's antics would actually compliment Sonic's way of life just by making things more exciting. I could so easily right now see Sonic bringing Cream along on an adventure just to see what trouble her curiosity causes to make his next adventure more exciting positive that he can keep her safe regardless, even so much as enjoying the challenge of keeping her safe. Then there is also the fact that her presence would be a good way to stall Amy if she showed up and would also complicate an unexpected encounter with Eggman. Unquestionably she has potential to add to the franchise and selling her short as easy as it is is just being wat unimaginative. Now that said, if you just don't like that's fine as everyone is entitled to their opinion, but she really isn't all that limited of a character and offers a lot more than most of us give her credit for.

I think that's a fine enough idea in theory. After all, it plays up previously set information about her characterization, which is clearly what you're getting at. And it could make for a decent gag and lighthearted story.

There is one(okay, two, but let's focus on the one that matters) little issue with going about now though: Cream has been an established character for years now and from what I recall, hasn't really been clumsy type. A bit careless with words, yes, but her stumbling into more trouble would be a bit uncharted for those who actually [think they(?)] remember much about the ingenue.

Oh and there's also the [second] matter of her arguably proving to be more than a little troublesome, especially for the more short-patienced and/or fusspot.

[DabigRG]

Delete

 

 

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, Dash Speed said:

Knuckles is a main friend two Sonic like Tails and Amy because Shadow exists as the aloof and detected rival to Sonic instead of Knux, and it basically makes no sense for Knux and Shadow to have the same lone wolf rival dynamic since it would rob one of them a purpose in being a deadly anti hero to foil sonic.

Knux never had a deadly rivalry with Sonic nor does he willingly dismiss Sonics purity in heroism for a more serious grim method. Knuckles has as much a pure heart as Sonic(despite being different in nature) in being a hero of peace and has a cocky way of doing it, if anything Sonic and Knuckles should be more bffs that tails and Amy are to Sonic.

Shadow on the other hand was made to antagonize Sonic and be a conflicting opponent to Sonic. Iizuka has stated they will never understand how they do things and will fight each other because of it, and it's treated more serious than sonic and knuckles conflict. Sonic treats Knuckles like a goofy brother than a competitive opponent to me. Shadoe gets more out of Sonic than Knux because Shadows the closest thing he has to an equal in power and speed.

Basically. People need to stop thinking Knuckles is a serious foil to Sonic, he's not. Stop letting fan opinion make you think he's Piccolo lol.

Yes Knuckles is dim and fights Sonic over stupid shit, but they've never had a cooperation problem. There's a light ribbing between them and a bit of a competitive edge, but it's never treated as anything serious. He has been consistently portrayed as a close friend of Sonic & Tails, and is more than willing to stick around help out because of that despite his own duties.

That more than justifies any appearance he makes.