How would you fix Sonic's lore, gameplay, narrative, and characters?

[Dr. Detective]

8 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Good God, did I piss in your cereal today or what? Sorry for agreeing with someone?

No I didn't agree because it was "smart". I agreed because its true? Characters are functions in a meta sense.

If that's not what you were focused on, fine. Thanks for clarifying but can we not do the passive aggressive thing?

Wraith's post didn't read as passive aggressive to me. Though that's probably because when people take a thing I said in a post out of its original context and the following conversation focuses on that, I get passive aggressive myself. So I tend to recognize what that looks like as far as when I do it.

As far as fiction goes, I do generally hold onto the idea that so long as they serve some sort of function in the narrative, even if it's something tiny, they're contributing something worthwhile. As far as the qualifications of being a character that's sticking around as a part of the main cast goes, I do feel like the justification for them being a character we constantly follow has to offer up something akin to a personal goal or something that gives them the drive to keep going. It doesn't need to be something that connects back to Sonic or Eggman. It just needs to be something that gives their character their own potential, personal drive. That way there's something to them that can be developed for the sole purpose of enhancing the world.

At the moment, the only character I personally believe doesn't fit that bill is Cream the Rabbit but even then, that would just lower her to a tier of character that doesn't need to be focused on. Tertiary characters who just show up to be apart of the ensemble are fine. If Cream doesn't amount to much more than having someone they can visit while talking battle plans over a cup of tea and a plate of cookies at Vanilla's house and then saying goodbye when the time comes for action then that's whatever. Do that with Professor Pickle too why dont'cha? I'd only raise my eyebrow at it if they saw fit to give her a ton of focus and a playable appearance on top of that because, at the moment, there's not really anything driving her to do anything.

She's not out for someone's respect or to better themselves as a person like Amy and Tails are. She's got nothing to guard or protect like Knuckles, Blaze, and Silver do. She's doesn't have an occupation like Rouge, Shadow, and the Chaotix. She's not out for revenge like Omega. She's not trying to take over the world like Eggman. She can't even really take up the role of the character whose got nothing to do with what's going on and gets thrust into the situation as an innocent bystander without it feeling like it's aping what Big the Cat did. And at least Big's a fisherman. That doesn't mean much but he's treated like a gag/cameo/meme character anyway. He's honestly in the best position he could be.

If someone has a drive to them or the potential to tell some sort of story by following their exploits than I consider that a strong justification for their inclusion. I've never been one of these people that absolutely asserts that they only have purpose if everything connects back to who the designated main character is. That's a little silly to me. There's plenty of franchises out that that easily make it more about the world and it's characters rather than the journey of just one guy. Some even make it about both. With a series with this many characters in it, there's no reason not to go for that aside from a lack of talent and creativity.

Which "Sonic Team in name only" seems to not have so, we're boned either way. It's nice to have conversations though.

[Wraith]

Cream still lives with and has a relationship with her mother and has a pet. Her perspective can be valuable as far as viewing the cast and certain situations from the angle of a kid who's honestly pretty normal. Not exactly a catalyst for dramatic storytelling but not everything has to be. 

[Kuzu]

Someone on another forum brought up how Cream could be fleshed out as having some bit of curiosity about the world since she's lived a relatively sheltered lifestyle and wants to have adventures of her own with Sonic and co.

[Kuzu]

About main characters though; I'm of the mindset you need at least 3-5 for something like Sonic in order for things to be really interesting and make your world seem big.

In terms of who? Just swap around depending on the story. The comics did that as Sonic teamed up with a new character in almost every arc.

[DabigRG]

14 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

 

At the moment, the only character I personally believe doesn't fit that bill is Cream the Rabbit but even then, that would just lower her to a tier of character that doesn't need to be focused on. Tertiary characters who just show up to be apart of the ensemble are fine. If Cream doesn't amount to much more than having someone they can visit while talking battle plans over a cup of tea and a plate of cookies at Vanilla's house and then saying goodbye when the time comes for action then that's whatever. Do that with Professor Pickle too why dont'cha? I'd only raise my eyebrow at it if they saw fit to give her a ton of focus and a playable appearance on top of that because, at the moment, there's not really anything driving her to do anything.

She's not out for someone's respect or to better themselves as a person like Amy and Tails are. She's got nothing to guard or protect like Knuckles, Blaze, and Silver do. She's doesn't have an occupation like Rouge, Shadow, and the Chaotix. She's not out for revenge like Omega. She's not trying to take over the world like Eggman. She can't even really take up the role of the character whose got nothing to do with what's going on and gets thrust into the situation as an innocent bystander without it feeling like it's aping what Big the Cat did. And at least Big's a fisherman. That doesn't mean much but he's treated like a gag/cameo/meme character anyway. He's honestly in the best position he could be.

 

To be fair, she'd likely be getting focus because of a character driven reason. She has mainly been a relatively satellite character within the games, after all.

Also, spinoffs.

12 hours ago, Wraith said:

Cream still lives with and has a relationship with her mother and has a pet. Her perspective can be valuable as far as viewing the cast and certain situations from the angle of a kid who's honestly pretty normal. Not exactly a catalyst for dramatic storytelling but not everything has to be. 

Yeah, she's definitely a considerable foil character to much of the recurring cast.

6 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Someone on another forum brought up how Cream could be fleshed out as having some bit of curiosity about the world since she's lived a relatively sheltered lifestyle and wants to have adventures of her own with Sonic and co.

What's funny is that--well, aside from what I just wrote--that is apparently an underspoken aspect of her character. Not entirely sure where that comes from, though, aside from her inherently childish nature.

[Iko]

18 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

She's got nothing to guard or protect like Knuckles, Blaze, and Silver do.

At least in 1 game, she was there to "protect" Vanilla (at least she tried to save her).

At the end, she saved her, but in the true ending she was kidnapped again and this time Sonic had to save her. That does not invalidate Cream's role, since that's pretty much what happend with Knuckles and the Master Emerald in Sonic 3 & Knuckles.

Anyway, I'm strongly convinced that in gaming, story is secondary and the gameplay comes first; the story should be built around the characters to accomodate the gameplay, not the other way... and I think that Cream can be a pretty interesting character gameplay-wise, if they decide to experiment a bit more with the Rosalina & Luma type of gameplay that she offers and nobody else in the series does.

Story-wise, I think that, while she's currently unused, there is potential for implementing her in the story without making it feel forced.

-Something of big scale happens, and she (along with Vanilla), as a civil, gets affected by it (a war, her home is destroyed, or something); Sonic is initially not there to help her, and Vanilla can't fight, so she needs to "grow up" a bit and fight to defend her (basically, what her role in Sonic Forces should have been)

-Her love for chao brings her far into the territory of ancient relics and mysteries... she is young and wants to learn more about the world, so, unaware of the dangers, does stuff that she souldn't do, unlocking some ancient power or something (obviously related to the mystic ruins since chao are tied with them). At one point in the story, maybe she meets with Knuckles and she needs his support and knowledge of the Ancient Echidna tribe, then he would act as a mentor for her (other than being annoyed by her - this would lead to some funny situations)

-They can always play the wild card and revive Gmerl, who as far as I know, the last time he was seen, it was at Cream's home. Maybe they can make a plot out of the interaction between her and GMerl, and it would be a little reference to Cream's connection with Emerl in the past.

-They can also go for the more generic but still useful plot that, she is on a trip to explore the world for learning new things or simply to have some fun, and she ends up in a dangerous situation (this could have been her role in Sonic Colors, and it would have been very fitting, considering that a kid going to the theme park feels very natural story-wise).

-Or just bring back Blaze and explore about their friendship more, making Cream Blaze's sidekick once again (Blaze and Cream are like best friends or something, despite people keep saying that's Amy and Cream).

So, I disagree with that common opinion that "Cream is useless" many people seem to have. There are many interesting plots that you can create involving her, way more than what I can think of a lot of other characters such as Omega or even Silver.

And speaking of "pointless" characters, not having a role nor a motivation didn't stop Mighty and Ray to come back.

[Scritch the Cat]

Something that can't be good for Cream is that chao have been absent from the games for a long time, although maybe they'll make a comeback now that they're playable in TSR--replacing Cream, no less.

However, while the idea of having a chao to help fight enemies is neat in itself, it doesn't make me fond of Cream and Cheese because every character can raise chao in the mini game, personally raised chao are the most likable and Cream's whiny, pacifist persona bugs me.

[Dr. Detective]

2 hours ago, Iko said:

At least in 1 game, she was there to "protect" Vanilla (at least she tried to save her).

At the end, she saved her, but in the true ending she was kidnapped again and this time Sonic had to save her. That does not invalidate Cream's role, since that's pretty much what happend with Knuckles and the Master Emerald in Sonic 3 & Knuckles.

Cream's goal in life isn't to protect her mother though. It's not really a duty she thrust upon herself as a character. It's a matter of the character already having a stable living condition and having that taken away from them. Most of the time, that's kind of how Cream gets brought into the fold. Her mother will get kidnapped. Or her chao's friend will get kidnapped. Or she'll get lost in a haunted castle. She's not really out to do anything. Stuff just happens to her. 

That's fine but that could literally be any other character. She would need something all her own that's worth developing on.

2 hours ago, Iko said:

Anyway, I'm strongly convinced that in gaming, story is secondary and the gameplay comes first; the story should be built around the characters to accomodate the gameplay, not the other way... and I think that Cream can be a pretty interesting character gameplay-wise, if they decide to experiment a bit more with the Rosalina & Luma type of gameplay that she offers and nobody else in the series does.

Ah, well, I have a different viewpoint on that. Characters for me, are first and foremost, tools utilized to tell a story. Different avenues of gameplay can be achieved from doing literally anything. Like power-ups or the wisps. I desire to see the characters return mostly because I value their arcs and the different narrative perspectives they have. That isn't to say your way of thinking is wrong. It's not. It's just different from mine.

2 hours ago, Iko said:

Story-wise, I think that, while she's currently unused, there is potential for implementing her in the story without making it feel forced.

-Something of big scale happens, and she (along with Vanilla), as a civil, gets affected by it (a war, her home is destroyed, or something); Sonic is initially not there to help her, and Vanilla can't fight, so she needs to "grow up" a bit and fight to defend her (basically, what her role in Sonic Forces should have been)

-Her love for chao brings her far into the territory of ancient relics and mysteries... she is young and wants to learn more about the world, so, unaware of the dangers, does stuff that she souldn't do, unlocking some ancient power or something (obviously related to the mystic ruins since chao are tied with them). At one point in the story, maybe she meets with Knuckles and she needs his support and knowledge of the Ancient Echidna tribe, then he would act as a mentor for her (other than being annoyed by her - this would lead to some funny situations)

-They can always play the wild card and revive Gmerl, who as far as I know, the last time he was seen, it was at Cream's home. Maybe they can make a plot out of the interaction between her and GMerl, and it would be a little reference to Cream's connection with Emerl in the past.

-They can also go for the more generic but still useful plot that, she is on a trip to explore the world for learning new things or simply to have some fun, and she ends up in a dangerous situation (this could have been her role in Sonic Colors, and it would have been very fitting, considering that a kid going to the theme park feels very natural story-wise).

-Or just bring back Blaze and explore about their friendship more, making Cream Blaze's sidekick once again (Blaze and Cream are like best friends or something, despite people keep saying that's Amy and Cream).

So, I disagree with that common opinion that "Cream is useless" many people seem to have. There are many interesting plots that you can create involving her, way more than what I can think of a lot of other characters such as Omega or even Silver.

And speaking of "pointless" characters, not having a role nor a motivation didn't stop Mighty and Ray to come back.

So when people say "Cream is useless" or "Cream doesn't have any sort of point of development or occupation to work off of" it generally means that currently, she's got nothing. That doesn't mean she can't be given something. You went ahead and listed a bunch of potential ideas for her character to follow that would allow her to no longer be a void of emptiness and that's good. That's the point I always make about her.

They need to give her something. Cream is the only character that doesn't really have anything to herself. And while I don't agree with all of these ideas listed, there's at least an attempt there to expand upon who she is so that she can actually have some sort of focal point.

But again, the point is that, right now, she's the only character I can think of that doesn't have that. As such, Cream the Rabbit, in her current form, is pretty expendable. We can talk about potential and hypothetical things they COULD do with her but the fact remains that they haven't given her anything. 

Now, I definitely don't agree that there are way more interesting plots you could do with her over Omega and Silver. I brainstorm plot ideas for those two all the time (along with all the others aside from Cream) and that's because there's already something there to work off of. 

For Cream, I would have to give her some sort of motivation or occupation or something before I could even think of then brainstorming ideas of what to do with her. There's a lot of steps to take with her in that regard that the others don't have to worry about because what they're all about and what they want are clearly defined already... even if they aren't explored much anymore.

 

[Kuzu]

So...for the future, can we not downplay other characters to promote another? This topic is about hypothetical situations for any character, not just the ones you like.

In any case, there aren't many gameplay niches I can think for Cream that can't be filled by Tails. The only thing she had over him was Cheese, and I don't think trivializing the gameplay is very interesting. Beyond that tho, she doesn't have many gameplay quirks to justify a playable appearance.

Cream is the prime example of what happens when you create a character with a role that was already taken. 

 

They could go the Luigi route and differentiate her flying from Tails a bit.

 

If they ever brought back Chao as part of a gameplay gimmick, I could see her being the mascot for that.

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, Iko said:

 

Anyway, I'm strongly convinced that in gaming, story is secondary and the gameplay comes first; the story should be built around the characters to accomodate the gameplay, not the other way... and I think that Cream can be a pretty interesting character gameplay-wise, if they decide to experiment a bit more with the Rosalina & Luma type of gameplay that she offers and nobody else in the series does.

Story-wise, I think that, while she's currently unused, there is potential for implementing her in the story without making it feel forced.

So, I disagree with that common opinion that "Cream is useless" many people seem to have.

Pretty much.

2 hours ago, Iko said:

 

-Something of big scale happens, and she (along with Vanilla), as a civil, gets affected by it (a war, her home is destroyed, or something); Sonic is initially not there to help her, and Vanilla can't fight, so she needs to "grow up" a bit and fight to defend her (basically, what her role in Sonic Forces should have been)

There's a lot of things Forces should've been and/or fronted to be.

Anyway, I wanna say Cream is arguably capable of some degree of that as is.

Hell, it'd arguably be interesting to not only have Cream personally defend her mother, but potentially have her mother briefly extend a hand/ear/whatever to help her at one point. Even despite a possible dislike for violence that Cream may have gotten from her as well.

2 hours ago, Iko said:

 

-Her love for chao brings her far into the territory of ancient relics and mysteries... she is young and wants to learn more about the world, so, unaware of the dangers, does stuff that she souldn't do, unlocking some ancient power or something (obviously related to the mystic ruins since chao are tied with them). At one point in the story, maybe she meets with Knuckles and she needs his support and knowledge of the Ancient Echidna tribe, then he would act as a mentor for her (other than being annoyed by her - this would lead to some funny situations)

Oh, I'd be down for that. Makes me wish SEGA would take another crack at an RPG type game again.

2 hours ago, Iko said:

 

-They can always play the wild card and revive Gmerl, who as far as I know, the last time he was seen, it was at Cream's home. Maybe they can make a plot out of the interaction between her and GMerl, and it would be a little reference to Cream's connection with Emerl in the past.

Gemerl would be a neat, lesser known thing to bring back proper.

2 hours ago, Iko said:

-They can also go for the more generic but still useful plot that, she is on a trip to explore the world for learning new things or simply to have some fun, and she ends up in a dangerous situation (this could have been her role in Sonic Colors, and it would have been very fitting, considering that a kid going to the theme park feels very natural story-wise).

 

Isn't she one of the characters in the DS version?

Which would require her to essentially sneak in anyway.

2 hours ago, Iko said:

 

-Or just bring back Blaze and explore about their friendship more, making Cream Blaze's sidekick once again (Blaze and Cream are like best friends or something, despite people keep saying that's Amy and Cream).

 

I got a tad back and forth on this one. On the odd occasion I think about it, anyway.

Though Cream meeting Marine and/or especially Sticks is something I still wanna see happen.

 

Oh and the Team Jubilee is something of a Artifact from Cream's initial conceptualization and designs that SEGA clearly wanted to have, but did fairly little with.

2 hours ago, Iko said:

There are many interesting plots that you can create involving her, way more than what I can think of a lot of other characters such as Omega or even Silver.

And speaking of "pointless" characters, not having a role nor a motivation didn't stop Mighty and Ray to come back.

Hell, any character can be fun or interesting if you just use them as such.

Or hell, sometimes if you just use them period.

 

 

[Sonic Fan J]

Well, I missed a day of conversation so unfortunately I have to bring back up some points that were dropped so sorry to the Cream discussion.

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 1:03 PM, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I think a lot of people take these character descriptions to heart and never try think beyond that. 

Yea, Knuckles isn't the same type of free spirit as Sonic, but that doesn't mean Knuckles is never allowed to leave ever.

Keep a character too closely defined by their role, and then it limits what can be done with them.

 

For instance, Knuckles being in Soleanna isn't bad because the Master Emerald isn't relevant to that game at all. The reason Knuckles feels out of place is because he contributes nothing to the plot at all. That has nothing to do with his guardian duties.

 

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 1:39 PM, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

This wasn’t addresses to me, but I feel that it was worth commenting that in a way Knuckles guardian duties only magnify how out of place and uncontributing he is—what Knuckles did there would be the equivalent of me leaving my job and home/country to go to Africa to fight terrorists and oppressive dictators who have nothing to do with me, all because I’m an American who believes in freedom and it’s expected of me, regardless of the circumstances or the people already there and capable of doing it better, much less how it doesn’t actually make my home any safer nor does what’s going on there actually affect me when I could be better off doing my job until it actually does start to affect me or someone requests my help while genuinely knowing my skillset that can assist them.

Or to put this another way, it would be like me leaving my house in a panic because the Wal-mart three miles away caught on fire, but isn’t spreading—when it starts spreading my way, that’s when I should think about doing something.

The reason I used 06 specifically as my example for Knuckles actually has to do with his role in the game and his own actions contradicting it requiring the casual player who willingly wants to know more about why he'd do what he does turning to the supplementary material which is where the problems occur as well as for us long time fans seeing him described as the Guardian of the Master Emerald no more than 2 games ago at latest.

So, most notably, Knuckles' role in 06 is to deliver a letter to Sonic for Eggman; nothing more nothing less. The problem that stems from this is why deliver the letter if he is a friend of Sonic who considers Eggman the enemy who must ben bested? Why doesn't he just pick a fight with Eggman when asked to act as Eggman's letter boy? To us long time fans you could argue that Eggman manages to trick Knuckles again, but as the Master Emerald or anything distinct to Knuckles is present in the story that doesn't work and one ends up asking why is Knuckles there. Even with his tendency to be a treasure hunter getting him off Angel Island for his own entertainment, why Soleanna where there is no known treasure that could be a target of his? We Know Sonic is there for the festival to the point that even post reset he still shows up to watch the festival. But Knuckles has no reason beyond delivering Eggman's letter only to then turn around and want to punch him the face with no explanation provided beyond being a friend of Sonic which begs the question of why deliver the letter in the first place again. So again we as long time fans are still stumped because it doesn't add up at all, but for a new player who actually wanted to know more why Knuckles would act this way you turn to the fanbase and supplemental materials and there in is the next problem. The long time fans say that Knuckles is the Guardian of the Master Emerald and lives on Angel Island and all of SEGA's official supplemental material says the same, with Sonic Channel even going so far as to say he stays up there by his own choice which is what it still says on Sonic Channel to this day. That means that SEGA wants everyone to know that he is the Guardian of the Master Emerald and chooses his duty freely. And then you look at how he is used in the games. It doesn't add up, especially since no in game background is given forcing new fans to have to research the characters relationships leading them to the supplementary material which defines Knuckles' role very clearly. So it's not so much that people cling to those descriptions too tightly, but that SEGA wants us to see the characters as described in those descriptions. It is for that reason that I say the lore needs to be updated to reflect why Knuckles leaves the island and/or gets involved with Sonic. It's not even that there is precedent for him to leave. The Japanese manual for Chaotix implies he'll leave to investigate things the Master Emerald reacts to and he is described as a world famous treasure hunter. With that precedent all you have to add to it is say to his friendship and rivalry with Sonic when he does bump into him while doing his own thing he'll help him out before getting back to his own thing. It solves everything with just one line of description being made official. Even the Soleana problem is addressed since you have the Chaos Emeralds being used to tear up the fabric of spacetime and he'll obviously respond to that because of the Master Emerald. If you really want to involve him with Eggman just have him jump to conclusions and pick a fight only to get stranded where he is fighting robots with the letter left behind for when Sonic gets there. His background and reason for being there are so easy to clean up it's rather sad it was made such a mess of in the first place.

To wrap this little rant up though and stay on topic I guess on the lore and narrative fixes I'd make for Knuckles, I'd add what I said above to a game narrative and also to his official supplemental material. That is, when Knuckles leaves Angel Island on his own business, when/if he bumps into Sonic he'll help him out due to his friendship and rivalry with him. It's one line of text that if placed in the right places permanently addresses the problem without tying Knuckles down to his duty and home or even needing to address what he is up to at any given time. It frees him up without compromising who he is which should make everyone happy. Honestly though if not for this long discussion I probably wouldn't have reached this simple solution that is easy to implement so please allow me to say thanks for staying involved.

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 1:47 PM, Wraith said:

This whole conversation is confused due to Diogenes taking out one part of my post and making it about something else.

My post was about in universe justification because that's what the previous conversation was about re: Knuckles vs Amy. Sonic characters are people that can respond fluidly to situations. They aren't archetypes that exist to provide a given energy or strapped to what their character description says. Knuckles can make the decision, independently, to act outside of his nature or his job to help his friends if they need it, because they're his friends. You don't need a whole lot more justification than that. These are character that, if not friends, at least care about the planet or at the very least have a survival instinct or at the very very least hate Eggman becuase he crossed them, and it's easy to set up almost anyone in the cast to participate. I say almost with Silver in the back of my mind but even that's an easy fix. The character bios/lore aren't a list of rules you never break.

I originally had a much longer response thought up to this but while posting my above response I pretty much removed the need to say what I was going to. That said, there is so much more to these characters than just being friends who care about each other, the planet, and have been wronged by Eggman. Boiling them like that is rather disrespectful to that and the long history all of them have as well as what motivates them outside of what you describe. Heck, just as an example again of Knuckles versus Amy (kind of sick of going here) but Amy is known due to her crush to follow and track down Sonic who is a known adventurer who is always on the move and on the look out for his next adventure where as Knuckles lives on a moving island with no way to keep track of Sonic or even a reason to do so. Just saying they're friends is not going to address them all being in the same area on it's own and shouldn't. What it should address is little more than why they are helping each other out/hanging out. When you're talking about improving characterization in addition to lore and narrative it becomes necessary to address these individual moments.

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 2:17 PM, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

You'd have a point...if the Master Emerald was relevant to the scenario you're describing.

But it's not. This is what I meant by how this is restrictive thinking. You're essentially saying Knuckles is not allowed to leave his post for anything unrelated to his duties.

In-universe, that makes some bit of sense. But from a meta perspective, what if I want Knuckles to be in this new game I'm developing. You're gonna tell me I have to contrive some reason to make the Emerald relevant in order to use him even if I had no plans to use it?

Another post I had a long response in mind for originally but as I said above, as long the supplementary material accurately reflects Knuckles' actions you should never have to add the Master Emerald. Just updating Knuckles' descriptions as I suggest above should more than resolve that problem. Probably the best part is, doing it that way actually opens up avenues for Knuckles to have his own games separate from Sonic based on his character and duty without his duty ever having to overlap into Sonic's stories. It's actually the best of both worlds in that regard.

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 6:24 PM, Scape said:

Why does Amy like Sonic? What value does she see in him? Would she not want to adopt the traits in him that she likes?

Why are people so hung up on Amy's hunger for Sonic's jock but never once ask why she ever would be? She confronts Sonic over the bird and Gamma in Sonic Adventure. She outright asks him what his problem is. You don't say that to someone you love uncritically. If I had to guess, I'd say she wants to BE Sonic. She sees an idealized version of herself in him and she becomes frustrated with Sonic when he fails to meet that standard.

I'm so glad that you asked that question and then provided a really cool follow up description to it. It plays so much into how I see Amy having similarities to Tails and his idolization of Sonic and desire to be a hero like him and how I see Amy logically able to follow a similar path. Why do I see that? Well allow me to answer your question in a way that I see it.

Amy is a hedgehog who loves adventure. Sonic is the most famous hedgehog in the world and a well known adventurer. In that alone he represents everything she can be as a fellow hedgehog and that is not but inspiring.
Amy is typically kind and cares for the well being of others helping them out and cheering them up when she can. Sonic is a hero who has saved countless innocents and will never abandon someone who needs help, especially if they are crying. In this way his kindness and heroism reflects not but positively on this energetic and optimistic girl.
Amy debuted being described as a tomboy with rascal as a nickname implying a tendency to not follow the norm. Sonic is known for his rebellious attitude and playful way even at the expense of others. In this way Sonic's fame and way of life allows him to prevent others from telling him how to be which should be extremely encouraging for Amy since at the time she was introduced being a tomboy was more often than not an insult.

So, looking at it like that it's not just that Amy want's to be Sonic as you suggest, but that she already is but at a much smaller scale with a more emphatic twist. There is little wonder that she idolizes him as he represents everything she is on so much greater of a scale. It's little wonder that she has so fierce a crush and desire to be a part of his life as him being a part of hers brings her so much closer to the full potential of what she already is. Of course it also explains why she can get so angry with him in instances like the bird and Gamma as he doesn't live up to his reputation and goes against her desire to help others and her temper naturally flares up as a result of her not knowing how to deal with Sonic being anything but her idealized version of both himself and her.

Honestly exploring all of that would probably make Amy so much more interesting of a character than she already is, but how to explore that within the context of this thread and SEGA's need to sustain the status quo would probably require a spinoff game that would likely never happen. Though if it did happen I would pair her off with Tails as he is the character most likely to understand her even in her more extreme moments such as her boxercise fit and in Battle and her desperate need to impress Sonic as he went through that himself when he first met Sonic and started following him without permission. Of course her desperate need to impress Sonic may also be more than just wanting Sonic's respect and to return her affection but also to bolster her belief that she can reach the level that he represents. At the very least actually exploring Amy's crush beyond it's use for her cat and mouse relationship with Sonic and as a joke would actually allow for more consistent focus of her personality and motivations. Conversely though actually fleshing it out could be potentially disruptive of how the audience perceives her as her desperateness could almost be seen as sad which makes the need to play up her Genki Girl aspect that much more important as well to keep her balanced. Either way, as the so called female lead of the franchise I think it would be worth exploring if only to stabilize her portrayals.

-----

And with all of that caught up on I'll contribute a little to the Cream conversation.

To begin, Cream has actually for the most part been one of the most consistent characters in her portrayals. She is always kind and polite with a desire to help those who she meets even if she is a little naïve in the ways of the world. The problem that she typically has a lack of initiative. She is a very reactionary character which leaves her difficult to use on her own and actually makes Amy a good pairing for her which brings about how to fix her narratively so she has a course of action.

To me, the Team Jubilee relationship is unearned as they never give any reason for why Cream should be Amy's friend. No idolization, no role model moments, no shared interests, no history, no mutual relationships outside of Sonic. There isn't a single reason. So where to start then? Well let's start again with Cream's willingness and desire to help everyone she meets. Now lets look at what I was rambling on about with Amy up above and her own desire to help people and her tendency to gush about Sonic. If you roll all of that up into a big ball and include Amy's desire to improve herself then an angle that can be taken with Cream is her own naivety and being a chao caretaker, raiser, and general friend to. In other words, Cream should treat Amy like a chao. Now hear me out here before you totally call me crazy, but if one remembers the Chao Adventure minigames from Sonic Adventure then chaos are already known to go out on adventures to improve themselves. They also take part in races, and even Chao Karate. Now if one looks at Amy she goes out on adventures, will partake in races, and was partaking in boxercise in battle all to reach her goal and improve along the way. She falls under categories that typically are focuses of chao upbringing which creates a sense of familiarity for Cream but also should touch on her desire to take care of chaos who she already sees as friends which the trait Amy and Cream share of being kind and wanting to help people allows the two of them to be tied together. Cream not seeing the difference between chaos and people to to her naivety is both able to be Amy's friend and desire to help her grow just as she would a chao. The problems and challenges for Cream is in that regard Amy would be like working with a very difficult chao, but that makes following Amy out onto her adventures that much more important so that way she can make sure Amy is growing well and proper. It attaches Cream to Amy like SEGA tried to and even allows her to be out adventuring on her own for any number of reasons that never have to be explained as her relationship with Amy and chaos give you an idea that she is probably on some self decided errand because of them and her tendency to help gets her involved in the current adventure.

Boy that was a fun exercise as I never thought I'd be able to come up with anyway to address Cream.

[DabigRG]

Holy beefer, Sonicman!

1 hour ago, Sonic Fan J said:

The reason I used 06 specifically as my example for Knuckles actually has to do with his role in the game and his own actions contradicting it requiring the casual player who willingly wants to know more about why he'd do what he does turning to the supplementary material which is where the problems occur as well as for us long time fans seeing him described as the Guardian of the Master Emerald no more than 2 games ago at latest.

So, most notably, Knuckles' role in 06 is to deliver a letter to Sonic for Eggman; nothing more nothing less. The problem that stems from this is why deliver the letter if he is a friend of Sonic who considers Eggman the enemy who must ben bested? Even with his tendency to be a treasure hunter getting him off Angel Island for his own entertainment, why Soleanna where there is no known treasure that could be a target of his? We Know Sonic is there for the festival to the point that even post reset he still shows up to watch the festival. But Knuckles has no reason beyond delivering Eggman's letter only to then turn around and want to punch him the face with no explanation provided beyond being a friend of Sonic which begs the question of why deliver the letter in the first place again.  It's not even that there is precedent for him to leave. 

With that precedent all you have to add to it is say to his friendship and rivalry with Sonic when he does bump into him while doing his own thing he'll help him out before getting back to his own thing. It solves everything with just one line of description being made official. Even the Soleana problem is addressed since you have the Chaos Emeralds being used to tear up the fabric of spacetime and he'll obviously respond to that because of the Master Emerald. If you really want to involve him with Eggman just have him jump to conclusions and pick a fight only to get stranded where he is fighting robots with the letter left behind for when Sonic gets there. His background and reason for being there are so easy to clean up it's rather sad it was made such a mess of in the first place.

To wrap this little rant up though and stay on topic I guess on the lore and narrative fixes I'd make for Knuckles, I'd add what I said above to a game narrative and also to his official supplemental material. That is, when Knuckles leaves Angel Island on his own business, when/if he bumps into Sonic he'll help him out due to his friendship and rivalry with him. It's one line of text that if placed in the right places permanently addresses the problem without tying Knuckles down to his duty and home or even needing to address what he is up to at any given time. It frees him up without compromising who he is which should make everyone happy. 

Another post I had a long response in mind for originally but as I said above, as long the supplementary material accurately reflects Knuckles' actions you should never have to add the Master Emerald. Just updating Knuckles' descriptions as I suggest above should more than resolve that problem. Probably the best part is, doing it that way actually opens up avenues for Knuckles to have his own games separate from Sonic based on his character and duty without his duty ever having to overlap into Sonic's stories. It's actually the best of both worlds in that regard.

They could also just introduce a particular treasure or landmark that he was checking out.

This post is so long that I forgot what else I wanted to say.

1 hour ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Well, I missed a day of conversation so unfortunately I have to bring back up some points that were dropped so sorry to the Cream discussion.

 

-----

And with all of that caught up on I'll contribute a little to the Cream conversation.

To begin, Cream has actually for the most part been one of the most consistent characters in her portrayals. She is always kind and polite with a desire to help those who she meets even if she is a little naïve in the ways of the world. The problem that she typically has a lack of initiative. She is a very reactionary character which leaves her difficult to use on her own and actually makes Amy a good pairing for her which brings about how to fix her narratively so she has a course of action.

To me, the Team Jubilee relationship is unearned as they never give any reason for why Cream should be Amy's friend. No idolization, no role model moments, no shared interests, no history, no mutual relationships outside of Sonic. There isn't a single reason.

That's what happens when you got for a particular dynamic, but reserve the first meeting to the manuel. And the character's introduction to a handheld that comes out earlier!

1 hour ago, Sonic Fan J said:

In other words, Cream should treat Amy like a chao.

The images that popped into my head...

 

Think I'll go with, "And thus, the Thunder Shoot was born!"

 

 

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Sonic Fan J said:

If you roll all of that up into a big ball and include Amy's desire to improve herself then an angle that can be taken with Cream is her own naivety and being a chao caretaker, raiser, and general friend to. In other words, Cream should treat Amy like a chao. Now hear me out here before you totally call me crazy, but if one remembers the Chao Adventure minigames from Sonic Adventure then chaos are already known to go out on adventures to improve themselves. They also take part in races, and even Chao Karate. Now if one looks at Amy she goes out on adventures, will partake in races, and was partaking in boxercise in battle all to reach her goal and improve along the way. 

...Holy shit...

1 hour ago, Sonic Fan J said:

She falls under categories that typically are focuses of chao upbringing which creates a sense of familiarity for Cream but also should touch on her desire to take care of chaos who she already sees as friends which the trait Amy and Cream share of being kind and wanting to help people allows the two of them to be tied together. Cream not seeing the difference between chaos and people to to her naivety is both able to be Amy's friend and desire to help her grow just as she would a chao. The problems and challenges for Cream is in that regard Amy would be like working with a very difficult chao, but that makes following Amy out onto her adventures that much more important so that way she can make sure Amy is growing well and proper. It attaches Cream to Amy like SEGA tried to and even allows her to be out adventuring on her own for any number of reasons that never have to be explained as her relationship with Amy and chaos give you an idea that she is probably on some self decided errand because of them and her tendency to help gets her involved in the current adventure.

Boy that was a fun exercise as I never thought I'd be able to come up with anyway to address Cream.

Two different kinds of compassionate and crazy, eh? 

I like the way you think, Jessie. That sounds great.

[Wraith]

I think it's strange that Cream is considered entirely expendable just because there's no catalyst for an epic hero's journey there. Like why would a character who's essentially a normal ass six year old need an "occupation?" It's fine for some characters to just play supporting roles.  

[Kuzu]

29 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I think it's strange that Cream is considered entirely expendable just because there's no catalyst for an epic hero's journey there. Like why would a character who's essentially a normal ass six year old need an "occupation?" It's fine for some characters to just play supporting roles.  

I mean, I've been saying forever that she doesn't have to be all that important. But people played Advance and want her in on the action I guess...

[DabigRG]

8 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I mean, I've been saying forever that she doesn't have to be all that important. But people played Advance and want her in on the action I guess...

And/or have her in a game again. That's a motive too.

[Scritch the Cat]

Am I the only one who finds Cream's personality not only dull, but annoying?  She's such a deliberate wuss that in this series, it seems that the only point she would serve in this series would be to invalidate that attitude and prove Sonic's correct.

[E-122-Psi]

14 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Am I the only one who finds Cream's personality not only dull, but annoying?  She's such a deliberate wuss that in this series, it seems that the only point she would serve in this series would be to invalidate that attitude and prove Sonic's correct.

A problem is that Cream is the incredibly cutesy and cloying archetype and often not even in an ironic way (there were a few 'hidden mean streak' gags in Sonic X though those never add much to sickly sweet characters since they are always just rapid gags). Fluttershy is a similar archetype for example, but the difference is that Fluttershy gets lots of screen time and depths, she gets flaws and personal challenges and development and is granted a meaningful role in the main cast's dynamic (oh, and she's the butt monkey, so if she rots your teeth you get some catharsis). Cream is just a fairly flat side character, what you see at face value is pretty much what you get. Cuteness tends not to blend well with blandness.

[Wraith]

14 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Am I the only one who finds Cream's personality not only dull, but annoying?  She's such a deliberate wuss that in this series, it seems that the only point she would serve in this series would be to invalidate that attitude and prove Sonic's correct.

On the contrary. Sonic's leap before you look attitude has been taken to task a few times in the past. If anything it'd be the other way around.

[E-122-Psi]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

On the contrary. Sonic's leap before you look attitude has been taken to task a few times in the past. If anything it'd be the other way around.

It'd be nice to have a cast dynamic with even balance, which feels logical. There's never a consistent winner in "heart vs brain" decision making, both have the potential for big success and big errors. Boom Sonic and Tails/Amy was about the only case where they tried to appeal to both sides' approaches on different occasions rather making a 'right character' and 'wrong character' the entire show.

Either way, I don't think making Cream the new Sally whose always making the main character's ethics look incompetent will be remotely helpful in her popularity.

[DabigRG]

21 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

However, while the idea of having a chao to help fight enemies is neat in itself, it doesn't make me fond of Cream and Cheese because every character can raise chao in the mini game, personally raised chao are the most likable and Cream's whiny, pacifist persona bugs me.

 

31 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Am I the only one who finds Cream's personality not only dull, but annoying?  She's such a deliberate wuss that in this series, it seems that the only point she would serve in this series would be to invalidate that attitude and prove Sonic's correct.

That whole pacifist thing was really only a thing in Battle and that script is so oddly presented that it honestly kinda hard to really get that without prior knowledge. Otherwise, she's another youth going on actiony adventures that just happens to be moe, as they apparently call it.

Also, whiny?

18 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

A problem is that Cream is the incredibly cutesy and cloying archetype and often not even in an ironic way (there were a few 'hidden mean streak' gags in Sonic X though those never add much to sickly sweet characters since they are always just rapid gags).

What the heck does cloying mean?

18 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Fluttershy is a similar archetype for example, but the difference is that Fluttershy gets lots of screen time and depths, she gets flaws and personal challenges and development and is granted a meaningful role in the main cast's dynamic (oh, and she's the butt monkey, so if she rots your teeth you get some catharsis). 

That's exactly who I tend to think of when this kinda talk happens.

Either way, this kinda highlights that one of the bigger issues with certain characters is a lack of exercise to get more from them.

18 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Cream is just a fairly flat side character, what you see at face value is pretty much what you get. Cuteness tends not to blend well with blandness.

Eh, I don't know if flat is quite apt so much as underdeveloped and vaguely static.

15 minutes ago, Wraith said:

On the contrary. Sonic's leap before you look attitude has been taken to task a few times in the past. If anything it'd be the other way around.

Yeah, that'd be my guess. I mean, the other way around can and has sorta worked, but I don't think that's a lesson that'd need repeating from her perspective. And of course, given that Sonic tends to behave himself around characters like Cream, I don't think that'd really be an issue between them specifically under normal circumstances.

Course, there's also the issue of certain people not taking kindly to anything that deviates from cool action too long, which means you'd have to apply that in uncommon small doses.

[Kuzu]

Just...give Cream some depth, ANYTHING. 

The reason people feel she's expendable is that she's just so....bland. No interesting motives. Hidden traits or anything...she just...exists.

It's kind of hard to come up with something for her that's not just our personal headcanon.

[Scritch the Cat]

I keep hearing about how Cream was made mainly for the Japanese market, since they like cutesy characters, but even in that arena, she's really underwhelming.  Kirby and many Pokemon are also examples of characters meant for that, but they're a lot more interesting.  Maybe not in a narrative way, but in a "can do lots of awesome things" way.  Cream is just a less interesting Tails being upstaged by a chao sidekick who is just as cute but more awesome.

Edit: Besides, Sonic isn't popular in Japan, so why assume most people who will like Cream will even see her?

[DabigRG]

27 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

I keep hearing about how Cream was made mainly for the Japanese market, since they like cutesy characters, but even in that arena, she's really underwhelming.  Kirby and many Pokemon are also examples of characters meant for that, but they're a lot more interesting.  Maybe not in a narrative way, but in a "can do lots of awesome things" way.  Cream is just a less interesting Tails being upstaged by a chao sidekick who is just as cute but more awesome.

Edit: Besides, Sonic isn't popular in Japan, so why assume most people who will like Cream will even see her?

To be fair, Kirby and Pokemon are generally the primary focus of their series, whereas Cream was a slightly major supporting character in a franchise where there's a bunch of other characters who get more focus. And it's not like Cream hasn't had a select few moments across the franchise; just not that many or that played up.

 

[E-122-Psi]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

What the heck does cloying mean?

Goggle definition: "disgust or sicken (someone) with an excess of sweetness, richness, or sentiment."

 

I think it would work if they at least tried to deconstruct the archetypes more often, not just have them play the same shtick over and over which shows what they have at face value is genuinely all they have. I'll give credit to Lost World for trying, even if it was a very haphazardous result that lacked a lot of direction. I could argue that only further proves the writers are not used to giving these characters any depth.

Battle was probably the nearest to deconstructing Cream's character, with the consequences of her being the pacifistic morality pet having brutal repercussions throw in front of her, realising she has more or less accidentally emotionally manipulated a friend in getting dismantled for the sake of her fragility.