Are the fans too excusable?

[Rowl]

I think I found another reason why Sonic unlike Mario and Crash Bandicoot suffers from quality in his games. And this time it has nothing really to do with Sega and Sonic Team themselves, but rather with the fans. Do the fans just find excuses to defend the quality of Sonic games, comics and shows? I personally think that some of them are. I actually met some fans on he internet that are hardcore Sonic fans who just love everything about this series. There was this specific Sonic fan , that really got angry with we when I called out games like 06 and Rise of Lyric "bad" games or when I gave the Sonic Boom TV show a 6/10 score. 

He was the type of Sonic fan that would just buy anything of the Hedgehog as long as it has his face on it. He even wants to watch the upcoming 2019 movie in theaters. If most of the fans are like him, than I'm not really surprised when Sega really doesn't want to put any quality into the Sonic brand. I mean, why should they waste money, time and resources into a high quality game, if many fans would be satisfied with a mediocre or even a bad game.

Sonic Forces is actually a very good example of this. This game is really the most mediocre game of the series, but according to Sega it sold very well. So the fans seemed to be actually fine with this quality in Sonic games. 

I wonder if the fanbase actually did effected the quality control of the Sonic brand. Would this series have been better in quality, if we wouldn't be so forgiven towards Sega and Sonic Team? Personally I would say yes. 

[Wraith]

The onus to improve should always, always be on the company responsible for releasing the product. No matter how shit something is perceived to be in the mainstream there will always be some people that like it. There's nothing to be done about that.

It's not like Sega has been rewarded on the whole for releasing bad products, either. Of course there will be a fanbase that buys into it, but it's easy to see the growth of the franchise has been stunted by the wave of middling releases. If they were satisfied with where Sonic was at they wouldn't be trying so much crazy shit all the time to begin with. 

Can we as a fanbase get over this 'trying to make people feel guilty for liking something' shit? If you just don't like something contentious at all you're probably really boring and also in the minority. 

[Diogenes]

I think fans of all sorts are inclined to defend (even sometimes irrationally) whatever it is they're a fan of. That's just human nature; you make something part of your life, judgement of it feels like judgement of you, and there's an urge to justify yourself through it.

The reason it's worse for Sonic than for some other series is because the series has so many mediocre-to-bad games to begin with. There's a bit of a self-reinforcing cycle where the series' quality slips, fans rush to defend it, the devs are allowed to get away with poorer quality games so quality slips more, fans are too committed to recognize or admit the series' problems so they continue defending it, and so on. But that's far from the core of the series' problems, and it's not something that can continue indefinitely; the further things fall, the more people will realize they're not happy with the series whether they've been actively defending it or not.

I think as a fan there's some onus on you to try to be aware of what you're supporting and not let your passion overwhelm your good sense, but there's only so much of an effect that any one fan can have; ultimately it's on the developers to sort their shit out and actually make good games so that it doesn't matter if fans are too quick to defend them.

[SBR2]

Are we talking about the same fandom that was violently anti-Forces before it even came out?

[Sega DogTagz]

I think you'll find a fair amount of die-hards who will defend every mis-step of a franchise to their last breath in any and every franchise.

To be honest, I see more people who are willing to be brutally honest rather than the alternative in the Sonic fandom. In my experience people tend to be harder on the things they love - and its easy to see that with the mass scrutiny that gets thrown around before, during and after anything Sonic related comes around. People want the very best for the franchise, and arn't shy about ripping what is presented to pieces.

I mean, you don't have to look around very hard to see it. The things that deserve criticisms get shredded around here. Sure, there are a few outlines here and there, but in general I don't think there is an elevated amount of people who will worship the junk moreso than any other franchise.

[MetalSkulkBane]

"Fans are too excusable"    "Fans are unpleasable"     "Fans don't know what they want"

Even Sonic Fandom can't satisfy Sonic Fandom.

[Wittymations]

The fans are a byproduct of the franchise.

 

The constant change of direction every two-three games ultimately creates a constantly fractured base with varying opinions. Even games that, on the surface, would appear to be similar have enough differences to warrant a divisive opinion.

At the end of this, the blame still lays with Sonic Team.

[Marco9966]

But it's SEGA who makes the bad games. Why make games for toddlers (Sonic Lost World) when most of the fandom is teenage girls and young adult men?

There's a reason the Adventure games are so successful and the chao gardens is at the top of the polls at the Sonic twitter page.

Why not make better stories like Sonic Adventure and Sonic and the Black Knight?? Their philosophical messages were better and more subtle in these games than "The super power of friendship" in your face. Sonic didnt even have time to bond with the avatar like he did with Chip!

[JezMM]

4 hours ago, Rowl said:

If most of the fans are like him,

They aren't, tbh.  Very much a vocal minority, so that's one part answered.

4 hours ago, Rowl said:

Sonic Forces is actually a very good example of this. This game is really the most mediocre game of the series, but according to Sega it sold very well. So the fans seemed to be actually fine with this quality in Sonic games.

Sales =/= fans were fine with the quality.  There are many fans who want to try out the game for themselves before they judge it (this is why I bought it, even though the level design in the demo was shockingly disheartening for me), and some who may be absolutely certain that they're going it for a poor/mediocre experience will buy it just because they overall love the franchise and will take anything they can get just in the hopes that maybe something in it will appeal to them personally (I bought both Sonic Boom games with this hope - after all Sonic Unleashed had a lukewarm reception but is my favourite 3D Sonic game - who knows, maybe Boom will be "okay" for me rather than terrible?  (It wasn't, but I had to play to find out).

Fortunately, projects like Mania prove that SEGA are paying attention to more than just sales figures, and honestly, Sonic Forces was not the dumpster-fire the fanbase made it out to be.  It was just okay, a fairly simple platforming game that plenty of kids will enjoy, with decent production values and some replayability.  Just entirely underwhelming and a step backwards in terms of innovation for the 3D branch of the franchise (which is a big deal for the majority of fans on the internet compared to a casual, younger Sonic fan).

The only reason SEGA will celebrate Forces' sales in the same breath as Mania is because it is one of their most recent products and they want to sell more copies of it to fund the next project.  It would be entirely self-destructive to start talking about the negative feedback this soon, but they're definitely taking it on board internally I'm sure.

[Wittymations]

1 hour ago, Marco9966 said:

But it's SEGA who makes the bad games. Why make games for toddlers (Sonic Lost World) when most of the fandom is teenage girls and young adult men?

There's a reason the Adventure games are so successful and the chao gardens is at the top of the polls at the Sonic twitter page.

Why not make better stories like Sonic Adventure and Sonic and the Black Knight?? Their philosophical messages were better and more subtle in these games than "The super power of friendship" in your face. Sonic didnt even have time to bond with the avatar like he did with Chip!

It's a bit more nuanced than this.

Sonic Adventure, while my favorite version of Sonic, is often considered to be divisive now. It's not exactly because of the fanbase "being teens and young adults" but more that Sonic Team tends to shift what Sonic is meant to be all the time. Had, say, Sonic Heroes came out RIGHT after Sonic 3 and Knuckles (or at least some type of Sonic Heroes since Team Dark would be super confusing in this hypothetical scenario) then it'd do a whole lot better, especially it it was followed up by Sonic Colors then Lost Worlds. Then maybe Generations.

In this suggested timeline, Sonic retained an identity of being more geared towards a young audience.

In another timeline, Sonic Adventure and Adventure 2 still followed, but then the next game was perhaps Unleashed, maybe a finished 06. Maybe Forces. Again, this retains an identity of being more action based and "bigger than life" that those games follow. Note that I still wouldn't suggest throwing in something like Shadow since that kinda takes it a few steps too far.

As it stands, the tonal shift between child-oriented and teenager is just doing all kinds of crazy damage. And trying to be consistent now is going to tick a large portion of the base off.

[Marco9966]

2 minutes ago, WittyUsername said:

It's a bit more nuanced than this.

Sonic Adventure, while my favorite version of Sonic, is often considered to be divisive now. It's not exactly because of the fanbase "being teens and young adults" but more that Sonic Team tends to shift what Sonic is meant to be all the time. Had, say, Sonic Heroes came out RIGHT after Sonic 3 and Knuckles (or at least some type of Sonic Heroes since Team Dark would be super confusing in this hypothetical scenario) then it'd do a whole lot better, especially it it was followed up by Sonic Colors then Lost Worlds. Then maybe Generations.

In this suggested timeline, Sonic retained an identity of being more geared towards a young audience.

In another timeline, Sonic Adventure and Adventure 2 still followed, but then the next game was perhaps Unleashed, maybe a finished 06. Maybe Forces. Again, this retains an identity of being more action based and "bigger than life" that those games follow. Note that I still wouldn't suggest throwing in something like Shadow since that kinda takes it a few steps too far.

As it stands, the tonal shift between child-oriented and teenager is just doing all kinds of crazy damage. And trying to be consistent now is going to tick a large portion of the base off.

I was 8 when I played SA1, if it was Lost World I probably would not have been interested. Kids watch a lot of anime and action stuff. At the time I thought Sonic was similar to the ninja turtles with the environments (city, sewers, chaos) and character design(Big the cat by his design looked way wiser and old than he actually is). Also some anime inspirations with Amy.

 

[Wittymations]

1 minute ago, Marco9966 said:

I was 8 when I played SA1, if it was Lost World I probably would not have been interested. Kids watch a lot of anime and action stuff. At the time I thought Sonic was similar to the ninja turtles with the environments (city, sewers, chaos) and character design(Big the cat by his design looked way wiser and old than he actually is). Also some anime inspirations with Amy.

 

Yes, I'm aware this is your anecdote and probably many others. However, what I'm getting at is that Sonic would not be in this same identity crisis with a fractured fanbase if they had chosen to keep a consistent identity -- whether that be child friendly or young teen focused.

[Marco9966]

2 minutes ago, WittyUsername said:

Yes, I'm aware this is your anecdote and probably many others. However, what I'm getting at is that Sonic would not be in this same identity crisis with a fractured fanbase if they had chosen to keep a consistent identity -- whether that be child friendly or young teen focused.

SA1 was consistent IMO, it had similar vibes to Sonic 3&Knuckles, Sonic3&K was not goofy like Mania. SA1 has the most references to the classics out of all the modern games (except well Generations): it references Tails metting Sonic, Amy meeting Sonic, a kid talks about the events Sonic 3 and Sonic CD...

Yuji Naka even said they altered Sonic's design in Sonic3&K to make him look more like a teenager

[Wittymations]

5 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

SA1 was consistent IMO, it had similar vibes to Sonic 3&Knuckles, Sonic3&K was not goofy like Mania. SA1 has the most references to the classics out of all the modern games (except well Generations): it references Tails metting Sonic, Amy meeting Sonic, a kid talks about the events Sonic 3 and Sonic CD...

Yuji Naka even said they altered Sonic's design in Sonic3&K to make him look more like a teenager

Keep in mind, in both of my fictional timeline examples, I did say say "Heroes after 3andK" as well as "Adventure after 3andK."

The problems in consistency started to arrive mostly after Heroes was released. It just kinda snowballed after that.

[Marco9966]

Just now, WittyUsername said:

Keep in mind, in both of my fictional timeline examples, I did say say "Heroes after 3andK" as well as "Adventure after 3andK."

The problems in consistency started to arrive mostly after Heroes was released.

Yeah, they could make Heroes more mature if they write a real story, by showing Metal Sonic and Eggman each one pulling their cards on their sides to push the heroes to do what they want. And explain better why Metal wants the chao and Froggy.

And find better reasons for the heroes to fight (like Metal manipulates team Rose, and Eggman manipulates Chaotix, and each villain wants his team unknowingly take out the other team).

Missed opportunity.

[Maxtiis]

5 hours ago, SBR2 said:

Are we talking about the same fandom that was violently anti-Forces before it even came out?

I second this. As soon as Green Hill was shown in Forces, just about everyone I saw here either turned against it, or became very skeptical over how the game would turn out. Fans of this series are way more critical than people seem to generally think we are, as you need only ask around here or where other Sonic fans typically congregate. The only places I see people militantly defending poorer entries of Sonic games are Youtube comments on a video that's associated with the game they're defending.

Keep in mind it's not just us fans that buy Sonic games. Forces doing well sales wise, provided that's even true, could easily be explained by parents buying it for their kids for Christmas, or people just looking for games to play in general. Same applies to Mania and any other game really.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

You can't really ever blame the fans, even if they don't help the cause. And I have voiced before that I definitely do not think fans help themselves and their own agendas in this fandom but fans are not the ones that create the problems that exist. Fans are just there to react to what has been done, that's largely it. Its Sonic Team and especially SEGA (SEGA of Japan more than anyone for being so aggressively careless with their most important IP) that are to blame for the series state of mediocrity.

[DabigRG]

Uuuh, where are you looking?

Cause I've seen little BUT scrutiny and denouncement ever since I joined here.

 

7 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

But it's SEGA who makes the bad games. Why make games for toddlers (Sonic Lost World) when most of the fandom is teenage girls and young adult men?

"GONNA SKIN YOU ALIIIIIVE!!!"

"I think I need an intervention."

"...and those gloves are so retro."

"I'll get FAT from eating your black hearts!"

"One moment you're contemplating genocide,...."

"Only the reaper wins in the end."

"Now now...don't break TOO easily!"

"I long for death's cold embrace."

5 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

SA1 was consistent IMO, it had similar vibes to Sonic 3&Knuckles, Sonic3&K was not goofy like Mania. SA1 has the most references to the classics out of all the modern games (except well Generations): 

To be fair, that's because they were largely building off of it.

[Mad Convoy]

14 hours ago, DabigRG said:

"GONNA SKIN YOU ALIIIIIVE!!!"

"I think I need an intervention."

"...and those gloves are so retro."

"I'll get FAT from eating your black hearts!"

"One moment you're contemplating genocide,...."

"Only the reaper wins in the end."

"Now now...don't break TOO easily!"

"I long for death's cold embrace."

I laughed so hard at this. Its true that Lost World seemed to aiming for a mix of edgy and comedy. It did so really badly so the serious lines lost their edge, but that doesn't automatically make it a toddler game.

There's also Lost World's steep learning curve. Most kiddos don't have enough patience to learn how to play the game. Most people I see enjoying the game are actually older fans who do have the patience to sit down, internet on standby, to practice playing until they get the controls. (Which I think is a shame because control-wise, Lost World actually nailed the balance between freedom and precision, and that's a big step forward for the series. Its just that most people won't get to enjoy it because the game does not explain or demonstrate anything well, and well, kids don't really care about those technical details. They just want a game they can boot up and enjoy.)

-----------------------------------------

But yeah, going to echo the other sentiments here. If anything, I find fans tend to be extra harsh on Sonic. It's just the product of liking a series a lot.

[DabigRG]

23 minutes ago, Mad Convoy said:

I laughed so hard at this. Its true that Lost World seemed to aiming for a mix of edgy and comedy. It did so really badly so the serious lines lost their edge, but that doesn't automatically make it a toddler game.

There's also Lost World's steep learning curve. Most kiddos don't have enough patience to learn how to play the game. Most people I see enjoying the game are actually older fans who do have the patience to sit down, internet on standby, to practice playing until they get the controls. (Which I think is a shame because control-wise, Lost World actually nailed the balance between freedom and precision, and that's a big step forward for the series. Its just that most people won't get to enjoy it because the game does not explain or demonstrate anything well, and well, kids don't really care about those technical details. They just want a game they can boot up and enjoy.)

Yeah, I kinda liked how Lost World presented itself as one of those colorful, somewhat cartoony things that's actually quite challenging and gets rather tense tonally.

Never could get very far in it for myself though, though for different reasons.