Is/was Sonic getting the Goku treatment?

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Dash Speed said:

Strong enough to whoop Shadow and Silvers butts in generations and in the comic he had more notable feats of OP power in his base/super form. Shadow played the jobber role even in super and Silver well he just stalls his foes until someone smarter helps him beat someone or someone beat someone for him,

When being a fanboy goes wrong: 

You so up your own rear about liking shadow, and upset that sonic is getting spotlight that you missed an opportunity or rather missed whole point of sonic generations. You are going back in time, to free people. Those bossfights are fighting time displaced versions of shadow and silver from when they were enemies. Otherwise they wouldn't really have any reason to fight you, particularly silver. So sonic is fighting a much weaker version of shadow. 

So my statement still stands? ( Along with generations probably still being non canon , but i'm not going to argue that right now) 

Also the comic doesn't really count depending on which era is basically terrible fanfiction at this point if you mean pre-boot archie that had several years before shadow and silver existed. And if you mean post reboot then... sonic didn't actually do too much more than shadow? Yeah he was the main character so he was around, but he didn't really get to do anything super spectacular besides run around because he was a werehog a lot of the time. He went super once in the main story... and he had werehog stuff that was it? I guess if you consider werehog sonic stuff things sonic did I guess you could kinda have that mindset, but like...I don't because its not some shit sonic can normally do and was used for a story about one game. Also sonic is the protagonist ... so he's gonna be around a bit more than some other characters? Silver did some cool stuff. And shadow did a bunch of cool stuff , sometimes really really cool. Where he basically says like sonic in generations he's much stonger and beats what is essentially a final boss in his base form. Fights and defeats eclipse, then fights knuckles , then saves knuckles, then fights eclipse again whilst being tired. This is ontop of having some of the most interesting character interaction with knuckles he's had in a while, and actually in a weird way making knuckles a more complex character. 

I get it, you like shadow. That's cool. And you think sonic is getting way too much spotlight, and other characters should shine , I agree. I don't think he's getting the son goku treatment. That's a very specific type of treatment that sonic has managed to avoid, but I generally agree its time for friends. That said your argument is kind of at least right now trying to take feats away from characters, and trying to give feats to sonic that don't really exist. Sonic defeated the SA2 version of shadow and the 06 version of silver, sonic didn't defeat the modern versions of those characters declaring himself some god king among hedgehogs.  Calm down, lets try to to discuss this rationally, I feel like in this rage you got going. You are trying to take away value from characters, and trying to equate things that happened.. in the comic a decade+ ago with what's relevant now 

[Scape]

There's this video on Youtube, [SQUIGGLY RANTS ABOUT SONIC FOR 45 MINUTES]  

Among other things, it discusses the idea that Sonic is the character who can best handle holding a Super Form for any length of time. (Shadow died, or at least lost consciousness originally)
To that end, it's fair enough that Sonic would be the best option in a situation desperate enough to warrant that.

The problem is:

1. Majority of the cast have been playable in a Sonic platformer at one point or another. They can look after themselves. Also, those games haven't always been clear about how fast they really are (besides "Sonic is faster than everyone if he really tries.") Sonic shouldn't have to be doing EVERYTHING.

2. The last game to use Super Sonic as a plot point was Sonic Generations. Since then, nothing has demanded that much out of him. If his full ability is not being tested, why should the audience be impressed?

Of course, there are some things only Sonic can do, or some things he's best at

But when Amy is consoling Animal Friends by saying Sonic will rescue all of them, I'm sick of wondering why she couldn't be DOING IT HERSELF

[Sega DogTagz]

7 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Let me give you a real example you should be uses, that isn't a bevy of excuses. Sonic boom sonic. Sonic boom sonic, is lazy, cocky full of himself and kind of a jerk. He also then gets called out on his bullshit, and gets his asswhipped. That's what people want not " he got mind controlled " not " Oh he is selfless he will take on the mantle of bad guy " a character making active choice to not be great and characters reacting to that.

That's a terrible example. Boom Sonic is a caricature of himself for the sake of comedy. You can barely even compare him to the Sonic we see in the games.

[DabigRG]

Eh, sorta, a few times.

Recent games like Colors and Lost World are honestly more a matter of the adventure being kinda restricted anyway and thus Sonic defeating Eggman, The Nega Wisp Mother, and the Deadly Six is business as usual, with a helping of Tails and Yacker doing other helpful things on the side that aid him in actually doing so.

In games like Generations, however, it can certainly be argued that Sonic's friends had little reason to not be a little more involved outside of the final boss fights and occasionally not even then. And revisiting Lost World again for a second, Amy and especially Knuckles's presences in the game is a functional understandable, but otherwise somewhat questionable oddity with that game's story.

Forces blurs the line a fair bit due to how over-encumbered and yet underwritten it is, so that one is debatable and/or all over the place.

Honestly, most of the other games that come to mind had other characters get involved anyway and only stay out of it when they either had other business or understandably couldn't handle it.

.

13 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

Depends on your own definitions. I'd say yes in the sense he's really the only character who can move the plot forward....no one else really can as of late. I mean we could say like the Avatar did...but considering how fast they went to Sonic survived....did he really move it forward if at all? I guess it could be argued...but no real progress happens without him.
 

Honestly, half of what Buddy did amounted to "Run around and act as a distraction/errandboy while we figure out how to get this mission done."

13 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

If he didn't save the day, there would be one one else to turn to. The earth would be destroyed and we'd be using the dragon balls chaos emeralds to Shenron Princess Elise everyone back to life.

 

Best. Surprise Return. Ever!  

 

8 hours ago, StaticMania said:

What about Sonic Lost World...his character flaw was a MAJOR part of that game. It took up like 6 cutscenes.

Very true.  

[DabigRG]

Delete

[DabigRG]

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2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 

You so up your own rear about liking shadow, and upset that sonic is getting spotlight that you missed an opportunity or rather missed whole point of sonic generations. You are going back in time, to free people. Those bossfights are fighting time displaced versions of shadow and silver from when they were enemies. Otherwise they wouldn't really have any reason to fight you, particularly silver. So sonic is fighting a much weaker version of shadow. 

 

Actually, Silver was the real deal. He was under the impression Sonic was a fake created by the Emeralds.

2 hours ago, Scape said:

 

But when Amy is consoling Animal Friends by saying Sonic will rescue all of them, I shouldn't be wondering why she isn't DOING IT HERSELF

That looks wrong yet intriguing at the same time.

[StaticMania]

That's correct. You shouldn't be wondering why she isn't doing it herself when Eggman's got one in the opening and dropped the rest on the Hidden Sextuple Shape.

[knuckles20]

18 hours ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

The "Goku treatment" is when the writers totally make all supporting characters useless or defenseless against the main villain in order to set up for the "hero" to swoop in and save everyone's ass. Don't get me wrong, I know this happens a lot in fiction but I was curious to know if some of you believe Sonic is or was being given the "Goku treatment" where he is the only one who can defeat a villain (I'm not saying he shouldn't due to the fact that he IS the MAIN character) while the others get stomped, cry for him, and then act like his personal cheerleaders?

EDIT: I know he officially lost to Infinite, which is why I added "was".

My main reason I’ve stopped playing the games and the moment Classic Sonic showed up in the Forces trailer I knew they were going down that route again.

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

.

Actually, Silver was the real deal. He was under the impression Sonic was a fake created by the Emeralds.

That looks wrong yet intriguing at the same time.

Huh, well that makes sense. Silver is the time dude.

 

Silver the time dude

[MadmanRB]

Yeah this is the biggest failure of Sonic forces, Sonic goes bye bye for a short time and everything goes to hell.

I mean for petes sake as much gruff I give the official continuity characters they are still much better then they are in Forces.

I mean we had Amy Rose who I hate but at least we have seen the girl can fight if she needs to, what was she doing with that hammer using it as a bloody footstool?

What about Knuckles? He sould be out there kicking ass too

And the crap they did to Tails, making him whine like a friggin 5 year old. I mean i can understand his emotions in Sonic Adventure but he got over it.

Then there was friggin Silver! AAAAAAAAH you have the ability to teleport and lift things with your mind you dingbat!

Even his holiest, hallowed be thy name the god above all gods greatest character in the history of ever to his fandom Shadow.... taken out in mere minutes (although to be fair to Shadow he still put up a good fight, I may hate him but good on Shadow for at least being competent.)

This everyone is what we call an idiot plot.

At least in Colors, Generations and hell even lost world the plot made sense on why sonics allies were so useless but here its beyond moronic.

[Mountaindewandsprite]

43 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Yeah this is the biggest failure of Sonic forces, Sonic goes bye bye for a short time and everything goes to hell.

I mean for petes sake as much gruff I give the official continuity characters they are still much better then they are in Forces.

I mean we had Amy Rose who I hate but at least we have seen the girl can fight if she needs to, what was she doing with that hammer using it as a bloody footstool?

What about Knuckles? He sould be out there kicking ass too

And the crap they did to Tails, making him whine like a friggin 5 year old. I mean i can understand his emotions in Sonic Adventure but he got over it.

Then there was friggin Silver! AAAAAAAAH you have the ability to teleport and lift things with your mind you dingbat!

Even his holiest, hallowed be thy name the god above all gods greatest character in the history of ever to his fandom Shadow.... taken out in mere minutes (although to be fair to Shadow he still put up a good fight, I may hate him but good on Shadow for at least being competent.)

This everyone is what we call an idiot plot.

At least in Colors, Generations and hell even lost world the plot made sense on why sonics allies were so useless but here its beyond moronic.

Tails probably got to me the most. Dude defeats Chaos 4 but cowers in front of Chaos 0. 

[MadmanRB]

5 minutes ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

Tails probably got to me the most. Dude defeats Chaos 4 but cowers in front of Chaos 0. 

Exactly, I mean yes he is a kid and i understand him getting scared now and then but he was a total wimp in Forces.

He had more courage in his SatAM incarnation and thats bad (though at least SatAM was written before the characters had a standardized personality although Tails was kind of a wuss sadly in SatAM a major downgrade to how he was in adventures of sonic the hedgehog)

[DabigRG]

4 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

 

What about Knuckles? He sould be out there kicking ass too

 

To be somewhat, they do acknowledge that he sometimes has to hang back due to some of his duties as the Commander--something he complains about a few times.

Plus, as a primarily close range combatant, that inherently limits what he can actually do.

Similar cases with Amy.

4 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

 

Then there was friggin Silver! AAAAAAAAH you have the ability to teleport and lift things with your mind you dingbat!

 

Okay, he has little to no excuse.

At least he ended up having to fight off Infinite.

[MadmanRB]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

To be somewhat, they do acknowledge that he sometimes has to hang back due to some of his duties as the Commander--something he complains about a few times.

Plus, as a primarily close range combatant, that inherently limits what he can actually do.

Similar cases with Amy.

Okay, he has little to no excuse.

At least he ended up having to fight off Infinite.

Still though you have others who could have helped, Espio, Vector especially.

I mean yes they were outnumbered but with the right strategy and the right mindset you can still achieve victory.

The 300 proved that one, sure they died but still gave hope to others.

 

Still if anyone proved to be worthless it was Silver, guess he didnt feel like using his physic powers or anything or just tried them once and then gave his famous catchphrase

 

[Shadowlax]

9 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

Yeah this is the biggest failure of Sonic forces, Sonic goes bye bye for a short time and everything goes to hell.

I mean for petes sake as much gruff I give the official continuity characters they are still much better then they are in Forces.

I mean we had Amy Rose who I hate but at least we have seen the girl can fight if she needs to, what was she doing with that hammer using it as a bloody footstool?

What about Knuckles? He sould be out there kicking ass too

And the crap they did to Tails, making him whine like a friggin 5 year old. I mean i can understand his emotions in Sonic Adventure but he got over it.

Then there was friggin Silver! AAAAAAAAH you have the ability to teleport and lift things with your mind you dingbat!

Even his holiest, hallowed be thy name the god above all gods greatest character in the history of ever to his fandom Shadow.... taken out in mere minutes (although to be fair to Shadow he still put up a good fight, I may hate him but good on Shadow for at least being competent.)

This everyone is what we call an idiot plot.

At least in Colors, Generations and hell even lost world the plot made sense on why sonics allies were so useless but here its beyond moronic.

Shadow didn't get taken out. He litterally escapes the illusion...and then infinite runs away...and then you dont see him untill mid game. For completely undefined reasons. Those undefined reasons, probably being

Shadow actually didn't have a plan but to mysteriously show up in the middle of the game, so the decided to give him ... something to do... even though it doesn't tell you where he went. 

And Shadow... could just punch infinite again and win pretty much, sonic to because that basically happens ( and silver if they didn't make him an idiot ), so what happened is infnite destracted shadow for 30 seconds by I guess... teleporting him to a version of that void dimension and when he broke out infinite had activated the self destruct and bailed. 

That's our competent villain. Literally needs the plot to bend over backwards to make him threatening

[Tornado]

On 8/29/2018 at 2:06 AM, Sega DogTagz said:

He couldn't deal with Marine in SRA, and was pretty much left drawing in the sand while Blaze handled his lightwork.

Tails couldn't even deal with Marine in SRA. Being incredibly overzealous and oblivious to the point of obnoxiousness was the whole point of her character; and while it's been a while since I played either Rush I know that Sonic also became a walking pile of friendship speeches every time anyone felt remotely depressed or in over their head.

 

On 8/29/2018 at 2:06 AM, Sega DogTagz said:

 won't argue that Sonic's negative traits got pushed to the side during the era, but we shouldn't pretend like they were nonexistent either. Sonic was never a perfect choir-boy, despite what the legion of side characters worshiping the ground he walks on would imply.

That's the rub isn't it? How the other characters treat him in-story puts a pretty fine point on how much they are presented as actual negative traits and how much it uses them as a pretext to pretend conflict exists when it doesn't. Most of his plot decisions he drove in those games boiled down exclusively to "super selfless hero guy!" The bad guys in that era occasionally used that against him directly, but it's not for nothing that the games fell over themselves showering Sonic in praise even when that did happen anyway.

 

16 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

That's a terrible example. Boom Sonic is a caricature of himself for the sake of comedy. You can barely even compare him to the Sonic we see in the games.

It's actually a pretty good example. Sonic in Boom has actual flaws that affect his actions and the responses he gets from those around him. They're hugely exaggerated for comedy as fitting the tone of the show, but they exist and they aren't terribly far removed from how he acted in the older parts of the SoA canon. You can barely compare him to the Sonic we see in the games because the Sonic we see in the games rarely has any actual conflict borne out of the flaws he is purported to have.

 

 

That's a major difference that Sonic does have with Goku, because since Super has started (and to a lesser extent during the Buu saga) the Dragonball franchise has taken great pains to avoid portraying Goku as the absolutely perfect savior of earth whose only flaw is that he tries too hard to treat everyone fairly that he fell into about midway through Z. No less than Toriyama himself said that it annoyed him how Goku basically became the neverending big good to mop up everyone's messes. Now other characters are willing to frequently comment on the arrogance that Goku has in his own power that before only Vegeta struggled with accepting and had to deal with from other characters. Now the stories involving him, even the stupider ones, are willing to note that Goku is kind of a dick in his own way that is similar to Vegeta, but at times more obnoxious since he is completely and occasionally deliberately oblivious to social norms. Now it's being noted that Goku is still a Saiyan, and getting bonked on the head as a baby didn't eliminate the bloodlust inherent to his race. Now while Goku usually is the one ultimately holding the line, he can be just as overconfident in his abilities as Vegeta was to the same effect as when Vegeta did (ie: Useless).

 

 

Whereas Sonic Forces just came out 9 months ago after years of trying to crawl out of the shadow of the Sonic Team USA output; where apparently all of these other characters can't wipe their ass and don't even seem to try unless Sonic is there to lead the way both by the true example of neverbroken spirit and by just being better than everyone else inherently.

[StaticMania]

Outside of Sonic Heroes and Sonic Forces, I don't recall Sonic ever doing much in the way of friendship speeches. Like even that whole friendship theme in Sonic Rush, it was everyone else but Sonic spurring Blaze on about friendship. Sonic just offered a helping hand of teamwork.

[MadmanRB]

6 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Shadow didn't get taken out. He litterally escapes the illusion...and then infinite runs away...and then you dont see him untill mid game. For completely undefined reasons. Those undefined reasons, probably being

Shadow actually didn't have a plan but to mysteriously show up in the middle of the game, so the decided to give him ... something to do... even though it doesn't tell you where he went. 

And Shadow... could just punch infinite again and win pretty much, sonic to because that basically happens ( and silver if they didn't make him an idiot ), so what happened is infnite destracted shadow for 30 seconds by I guess... teleporting him to a version of that void dimension and when he broke out infinite had activated the self destruct and bailed. 

That's our competent villain. Literally needs the plot to bend over backwards to make him threatening

Actually Shadows timeline is the only thing that makes sense in Forces, It was implied that Infinite had him in that virtual world for a while perhaps just as long as Sonic was imprisoned.

 

Of course it was only implied and never shown as was typical of Forces horrible storytelling

[DabigRG]

3 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

Actually Shadows timeline is the only thing that makes sense in Forces, It was implied that Infinite had him in that virtual world for a while perhaps just as long as Sonic was imprisoned.

 

That was pretty much my thought as well, since Shadow admits once he's brought everyone up to speed that he doesn't think the Phantom Ruby can be beaten by normal means.

Plus, having Shadow have spent that entire time near tirelessly fighting his way out of a legion-esque warp just inherently sounds like a fitting way of writing him out for a while.

[MadmanRB]

Still no matter how you slice it that does mean Shadow is the only other competent character in this franchise now, Silver must have had a Lobotomy or something.

The only logical thing I can think for him is that the phantom ruby has a adverse effect on him like Kryptonite to superman but its never stated in the story.

[Shadowlax]

4 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

Actually Shadows timeline is the only thing that makes sense in Forces, It was implied that Infinite had him in that virtual world for a while perhaps just as long as Sonic was imprisoned.

'

There is no implication of that

Watch the cutscene again. 

Shadow breaks out, Infinite hits self destruct he vanishes. He is not trapped in the virtual world, you made that up. Rouge gets in contact , with shadow after he breaks out, about there being some trouble at what is essentially the beginning of the game. So it seems like infnite's job was to destract shadow , from being there which he did he blew up a base on him, or at least tried. And that's it

Quote

Of course it was only implied and never shown as was typical of Forces horrible storytelling

 

45 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

That was pretty much my thought as well, since Shadow admits once he's brought everyone up to speed that he doesn't think the Phantom Ruby can be beaten by normal means.

Plus, having Shadow have spent that entire time near tirelessly fighting his way out of a legion-esque warp just inherently sounds like a fitting way of writing him out for a while.

He wasn't though

You all really need to watch that cutscene again

I know you are trying to give this narrative some form of credit by filling in blanks, this narrative is so bad there are no blanks to be filled. Just giant canyons of missing plot detail. So shadow is as about as incompetent as everyone else, he just decides to not exist for several months. Because the plot demanded it. Because...well... he could just punch the bad guy in the face. Like sonic did, like how sonic just punched the bad guy in the face. There is no reason , its like gohan at the end of DBZ, goku doesn't bring gohan to other world because gohan and gotekns at that power level would make that fight irrelevant and toriyama wanted goku to save the day. To link this ALL the way back the topic at hand, sonic possibly being goku in some ways

[Almar]

They just couldn't find a way to fit in how powerful Shadow is (he even can teleport without any signs of Chaos Emerald) with Forces plot demanding it being up to the Sonics and OC to save everybody. That's bad enough, but they also apparently changed Infinite's backstory from more or less Eggman's Ultimate Lifeform to some merc who got whooped by Shadow then turned edgelord (forcing in a connection that doesn't come up unless you play DLC).

[MadmanRB]

Quote

 

He wasn't though

You all really need to watch that cutscene again

 

I am referring to Episode Shadow where it is implied that Shadow at the least spent three months in Infinite's prison (though Forces does seem to juggle the plot point a little)

[DabigRG]

11 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

I am referring to Episode Shadow where it is implied that Shadow at the least spent three months in Infinite's prison (though Forces does seem to juggle the plot point a little)

He's pointing out how the DLC implies Shadow escapes around the same time Sonic reaches the City to face the Eggy Six in the first place.

Thus, the assumption that Shadow was preoccupied for the next six months trying to deal with the Phantom Ruby himself and potentially falling into the same trap but possibly stronger, only to return halfway through the story to vouch for how powerful it is is simply the easiest way to explain his absence.

16 minutes ago, Almar said:

They just couldn't find a way to fit in how powerful Shadow is (he even can teleport without any signs of Chaos Emerald) with Forces plot demanding it being up to the Sonics and OC to save everybody. That's bad enough, but they also apparently changed Infinite's backstory from more or less Eggman's Ultimate Lifeform to some merc who got whooped by Shadow then turned edgelord (forcing in a connection that doesn't come up unless you play DLC).

Honestly, I wouldn't have minded both if they actually took steps towards actually blending them together in the story proper.

31 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Still no matter how you slice it that does mean Shadow is the only other competent character in this franchise now, Silver must have had a Lobotomy or something.

The only logical thing I can think for him is that the phantom ruby has a adverse effect on him like Kryptonite to superman but its never stated in the story.

That's partially what happens when you're official debut was so infamous and you still inherently have a stigma or two attached to you afterwards.

Still, at least they had the decency to have Silver become under attack by Infinite to show that even he couldn't do much against him.

Also, possibly recurrent gameplay-story integration.

[MadmanRB]

2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

He's pointing out how the DLC implies Shadow escapes around the same time Sonic reaches the City to face the Eggy Six in the first place.

Thus, the assumption that Shadow was preoccupied for the next six months trying to deal with the Phantom Ruby himself and potentially falling into the same trap but possibly stronger, only to return halfway through the story to vouch for how powerful it is is simply the easiest way to explain his absence.

Yeah the assumption is actually pretty good too as it would fit his character to not to sit on the sidelines like most other characters in Sonic forces, again I might hate shadow as I feel he is overrated and overpraised but it would give credit to his character thinking that he was doing something else in the meantime perhaps trying to find a weakness in the Phantom Ruby which is more in line with shadows more proactive stance