Why "I" dislike Amy's Piko Piko Hammer

[Fire-N-Space]

Just now, MadmanRB said:

Yes

One can still hate a character and want to do something with them.

It would be nice if they made Amy into something more, something better.

And the thing is they kind of did that but not with sega Amy

 

Fleetway Amy and Boom Amy prove this, I actually really like those two versions of Amy.

Fleetway could hold her own and Boom Amy is fun and flirty but in a good way.

That's good to know, as I really didn't like Boom Amy to much as it strip most of her love for Sonic away and if Fleetway Amy is like Boom Amy I wouldn't like that Amy either. 

 

Just now, Sonic Fan J said:

Sure they hold water. They're explaining what makes the character work for them in any capacity. Even if its small or seems contradictory to others it shows that they still have hope for the character and it it makes it that much more important.
To simplify, I don't like the hammer, but if it was to be gotten rid of @MadmanRB would no longer have any reason to like Amy at all. It would give them further incentive to not care for the games which is not something SEGA would want. It has to be taken into consideration at the very least from a business standpoint where as my dislike does not stop me from buying the games or wanting Amy playable. From a business perspective @MadmanRB's perspective is actually more important than mine.

Constructive criticism and all don't want to say who's opinion is better there only opinions in the end but for self improvement I think there are no lesser type of opinion.

[MadmanRB]

7 minutes ago, Fire-N-Space said:

That's good to know, as I really didn't like Boom Amy to much as it strip most of her love for Sonic away and if Fleetway Amy is like Boom Amy I wouldn't like that Amy either. 

Eh the romance and love aspect of Amy and Sonic in segasonic is very one sided, mainly from Amy.

To be honest I dont think Sonic will ever love Amy back in the Sega continuity, he seemed to care more about Shadow then he cared about Amy.

And to be honest i actually like Boom Amy because she isnt just "the love interest", she is Sonics friend and there is nothing wrong with this as that could mean a love relationship could form naturally rather than the forced love that Sega has.

The only issue Boom has is that it has to hit the reset button for relationships, if the characters were able to grow beyond comedic plots i think we could have some legit relationships.

I mean it is there in a few episodes of Boom where Sonic and Amy come close, and so it can happen.

It certainly has more potential then the very one sided and rather forced nature of Segasonic

[Sonic Fan J]

19 minutes ago, Fire-N-Space said:

Constructive criticism and all don't want to say who's opinion is better there only opinions in the end but for self improvement I think there are no lesser type of opinion.

I agree. I was simply speaking from a business veiwpoint though. I'm known to buy a Sonic game almost regardless of what I hear about or my personal wants from the franchise.Or in other words, I'm usually very open to giving SEGA the chance to win me over with every game. That means that I am almost a guaranteed customer. But @MadmanRB, is not, and will only but if certain conditions are met. For example if SEGA took my opinion to heart and got rid of the hammer they would lose a customer in @MadmanRB. But if they kept it the have less chance of losing @MadmanRB, and since I'm already almost a guaranteed customer the chances of making more money exists with keeping the hammer. Simply put, my opinion could cost SEGA money in the current climate making @MadmanRB's opinion more valuable. It's all about the money in the end for SEGA and my opinion is not as lucrative as @MadmanRB's.

[Cuz]

59 minutes ago, Fire-N-Space said:

 if Fleetway Amy is like Boom Amy I wouldn't like that Amy either.

To be fair Fleetway Sonic's rather abrasive and just short of mean-spirited, I don't blame that Amy for moving on and not putting up with his guff.

 

[Skull Leader]

7 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

Well thats the thing, at least the hammer gives her something to work with and stand out more.

She is already the most annoying character in the Sonic franchise to me (yes worse than Big) with her crazy stalker fangirl persona.

I really hate her and yet because she is in segasonic she isnt hated like Sally, when Sally has her moments the segasonic fanboys all swarm to set her on fire yet when Amy is threatening violence against sonic so she can marry him like in heroes the segasonic fanboys all love her because she is "cannon" and "the one true pairing with sonic!"

To put it bluntly, to hell with Amy.

 

But at least with the hammer it gives her something more, otherwise she is just another crap generic character that sega chose to make official and leave far better characters like Sally and Lupe in the cold and in the dark.

Yeah, because Amy hitting Sonic with a toy hammer (which btw Sonic totally deserved, and not necessarily for attacking Eggman while has was holding Amy hostage, but for the way he doesn't even bother to go check on his friend, something that god forbids happen had it been Tails instead of Amy)  is so totally the same as making a scene in front of everyone because Sonic refused to be Sally's boy-toy, getting yelled, called selfish and slapped across the face.

And this is why the hammer works to further "soften" the scenes were Amy goes of a childish tantrum, something that by it's own context is pretty innofensive when compared to the Sally drama.

Also, if what you want to do is vent-off because Sally-kins got "supplanted" by the character that Sonic Team in all of their rightful place as the creators and owners of the franchide decided to introduce as the lead female then fine, but don't single out Amy as "generic" when pretty much every single character in this franchise is built upon the same type of characters you find in every piece of japanese media: the designated shonen hero, the genki girl with a heart of gold, the sidekick who wants to be like him and has confidence issues, the hotheaded friendly rival, the silent and edgy rival with a tragic story, the femme fatale, the loli, the no-nonsense masculine girl, etc, etc. Even their fur color often matches that of those character's hair.

Also I think that saying "at least Amy got something" comes off as disregarding how ironically, Amy's hammer makes her stand out among a bunch of characters that all do exactly the same things that Sonic already does. How comes people like you don't go after Tails, who can't do much in the games without mimmicking Sonic? I say Amy having her abilities focused on her toy hammer is something that reflects her more independent spirit and desire to carve her very own path as a hero instead of following Sonic's steps, something funny since out of all characters, Amy is the one that shares the most with Sonic, from disliking injustice and helping others in their own unique ways, to the love for adventure and excitement, even having Amy be the one that best understands Sonic's love for running.

I honestly don't see how is the hammer something bad, when it has never kept Amy from growing up as a character back in the days when ST wasn't so bloody fixated with Sonic & Tails / the classic "trio" and allowed other characters to do things. Especially when Amy's most important contributions to the stories have always been achieved without it, from making bad guys switch sides and becoming allies, to leading and inspiring other character, helping them realize that they are more brave and strong than they think to even saving and protecting Sonic himself. For all the accusations of how Amy would get violent and maul anyone that dares to hurt her darling Sonikku, 06 had her defuse the situation with fucking words.

And before someone says how hypocritical it apparently is for Amy to be the one character that gives moral speeches, I prefer for those to come from a character whose flaws and even contradictions makes her feel credible closer to the average person that ultimately have the power to do what is right, over having said speeches be given by flawless, idealized "better than you" characters as that only makes said messages feel condescending. 

[Sonic Fan J]

Been away from this topic for a couple a days and it seems to have gotten kind of heated. Hope no one is feeling like they were being personally attacked in here because that shouldn't be anyone's intent in this thread and I feel some people have gotten a little defensive.

To restore some discussion here I'm going to throw out another question just to see what people think.
Does anyone think Sonic Team themselves have made good use of Amy's hammer from when they adopted it for her in Adventure onward?

I've heard plenty of praise for the hammer in all sorts of situations, but almost all of those involve other parties working with Sonic Team and not them handling it themselves. The most praised use I hear for the hammer was a fan hack of the Advance 1 move set into the original games. That's not really saying much for Sonic team at any point in their history and I wonder if they can even make good use of it all. I don't think it should be hard regardless of my opinion about the hammer and in another thread I posted this

On 5/29/2018 at 9:00 AM, Sonic Fan J said:

Some conversations elsewhere got me thinking of Amy's gameplay and I ended up with another idea that works with my challenge. though it may not be possible to implement outside of fangames for legal reasons involving Segway imagery.

This example includes the spin dash and is pretty much using the 3&K gameplay for it's base with changes to rolling and the Spin Dash without changing their functionality.

Rolling becomes Ride Hammer - When pressing down while running instead of curling into a ball and rolling Amy instead pulls out her hammer and rides it like a Segway with the same effect as rolling except that she wont damage enemies who don't touch her hammer, instead taking damage herself.

Spin Dash becomes Rev Hammer - all of the properties of the Spin Dash but like the Ride Hammer ability above. She pulls out and hops onto her hammer when the move is activated revving it in place before launching off and steam rolling  enemies with her hammer.

Hammer Vault - Press jump when Amy brings out her hammer for Ride Hammer or Rev Hammer and instead of landing on the hammer she swings it and propels herself through the air with greater height and distance than a normal jump. Replaces Amy's regular jump if she is riding her hammer and has the same effect as Hammer Attack (see below).

Hammer Attack - While jumping press jump to make Amy swing her hammer while somersaulting to damage enemies, open monitors, and strike springs for a tremendous boost.

-----

There we go. It's a nice and Amy unique moveset that still keeps the traditional moveset but tweaks them to fit Amy. It also can work with some of her other abilities from the Advance games such as her Hammer Drop and it also works if she doesn't have a traditional Spin Jump. All in all I really like this one. Such a shame the Segway imagery probably kills it for legal reasons.

Sure there are problems with it but I'm just a fan with no training in this and even I can come up with multiple ideas on how to address it.

Perhaps part of the problem is that Sonic Team can't really focus on more than one playstyle at a time most of their franchises seem to only focus on one type of gameplay. As for the character handling and writing, I agree for the most part that Sonic Team just doesn't seem to know what they are doing.

[Salamander]

Not Sonic Team as such, but the hammer augmenting the effects of springs in the Sonic Advance games was a genuinely original idea that was potentially highly significant for height and speed in platforming.

[StaticMania]

They probably could've made good use of it if they combined all it's good qualities...

Her hammer jump, hitting springs for increased height, and hammer spin for a short glide are all good ideas that would be useful if she was ever to be playable again.

[Skull Leader]

I really don't care who comes up with the ideas, and the argument of things like her Fighters or Advance not being fully made by Sonic Team (for which we need evidence btw) ultimately comes off as a rather shallow excuse to disregard said abilities, especially when compared to other characters like Tails who only uses his namesakes for pretty much just flying, Amy's hammer can have different uses like seen in Advance with the spring gimmick.

Some I can quickly come up with are the spinning move from Heroes to hover a bit of extra time in midair, throwing it like a projectile for ranged attacks, hitting objects/enemies to launch them in a given direction(similar to Duck Tales for the NES), a strong attack that comically flattens enemies/activates switches others can't/immobilizes bosses limbs, etc.

[Diogenes]

Alright so I felt compelled to go through this. Most of these points have probably already been brought up, I haven't read the entire thread to tell, but whatever.

On 5/28/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

Amy was introduced as a damsel in distress, but how much of a damsel was she?

100%. Her appearances in CD are, in order: swooning at Sonic, being captured by Metal, being rescued, and being carried to safety. She does nothing else.

On 5/28/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

My starting point was again the Japanese manual of Sonic Drift where, according to what my younger brother translated, the car that Sonic drove was praised by the hedgehog for being nearly as fast as he was. That meant that since Amy was competing that she was driving a car that could nearly keep up with Sonic. Taken in context that means she had the strength and reflexes to control such a car and actually race against Sonic.

She can drive a car because it's a car racing game. Mario Kart has literal infants driving cars, because that's what the game is about. It's not meant to be indicative of any special skill on her part.

On 5/28/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

As it turned out, all the way to Sonic CD where she debuted and Sonic Team Japan presented her as a damsel in distress. What they did not do though was make her helpless. She traveled to Never Lake under her own power led on by nothing but a message from her cards and a love for mysterious things. Upon arriving she didn’t just hang around the lake but got herself up on Little Planet which the only demonstrated way up within the game and manual was Eggman’s chain, which can be inferred to mean that Amy made her way up there by that method. Then on Little Planet she demonstrates enough strength to hold Sonic in place if he is moving slowly enough and makes it through Palmtree Panic to Collision Chaos before Sonic. Later in the game once she is rescued from Metal Sonic she appears at the end of Metallic Madness after Eggman’s defeat, but is shown catching up with Sonic. This can be inferred to mean that she made it through Metallic Madness on her own, navigating all of the death traps designed to stop Sonic himself.

This is nothing more than speculation. You are filling in blank spaces with explanations that are convenient for your argument, not ones actually backed up by evidence in the game. You can't simply assume that she's gone through all the same traps and trials that Sonic did simply because we only saw how Sonic got from one place to another. By that logic we'd be equally justified in assuming Eggman travels around dodging his own traps.

On 5/28/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

The compromise for this was to create a complex command system for Amy that has been described by many as a hard mode in Sonic Advance and excludes all traces of the original rolling gameplay to defeat enemies by bumping into them.

Amy's controls in the Advance games aren't "complex", at least no more than any other character's in those games. And while she is kind of a "hard mode", that's entirely because she doesn't spin, not because of her hammer. Whether or not she can spin and whether or not she has a hammer are two separate decisions, neither precludes the other, as we see in Advance 2 where she's able to do both.

On 5/28/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

When approaching Mania and its return to the top triangle and the simplicity it relies on there is no room for the hammer, and thus Amy if she must have it.

Simply false. This conclusion assumes that her hammer must be implemented as the same slow, momentum-stopping melee attack she's been given as a basic attack in previous games, but even those previous games don't assume that this is the only way her hammer can be used. You could easily include her hammer in a Mania-styled game by having it act similar to the instashield, extending her attack range and protecting her from some attacks, without slowing down her gameplay one bit, and without precluding her being able to roll.

This "triangle" metaphor doesn't even apply to Mania, as it doesn't account for moves like Tails' flight and Knuckles' gliding and climbing.

On 5/28/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

Further discussions I would have about Amy’s hammer and its use in the franchise would only fuel my dislike of it as I began to see it as a rather twisted and horrible tool. To me, Amy is a genki girl, or a girl who is overwhelmingly positive, optimistic, energetic, and is always trying to get everybody to have as much fun as she is so that they too can be happy. She is joy incarnate in a way, yet the hammer is the very opposite of that. While it is designed as a toy, a hammer is technically a tool for building things but that is far from what Amy primarily uses it for. She doesn’t build anything with it beyond fear as she wields it as either a sledge hammer or war hammer destroying everything that gets in her path.

This is just some really bizarre moralizing after a long paragraph complaining that she can't basically bodyslam her way through obstacles. This is an action series; enemies and obstacles are going to get smashed, and I don't see how there's any moral difference if she's spindashing through them or smashing them with a hammer.

On 5/28/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

This destructive use of the hammer combined with the temper introduced to her character in Sonic X would convert what was once a silly toy into weapon of entitlement where any time Amy would not get her way she would bring out her hammer and get her way in an instant.

To cut through this point quickly, you have basically said yourself that the problem isn't the hammer, but how she was characterized in that period. Wielding a hammer doesn't inherently make Amy violent, entitled, bratty, or whatever other traits from that era that you take issue with. 

On 5/28/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

For example, take Knuckles and his ability to punch. In his debut game he is demonstrated punching on a number of occasions, including at Sonic and Tails, but once he is playable his punching is a not an option for the player unless they try to use his glide leaving him instead to use Sonic’s special abilities. To a small child this can appear as only villains punch people and it is very hard for a good guy to punch anything, but instead a good guy has special abilities that they use to defeat bad guys. This can leave a profoundly positive effect on a child and can even potentially lead to a child having an interest in learning the right ways to deal with bad guys and maybe even becoming real life heroes like our police, firefighters, doctors, and soldiers.

This is an incredibly tortured reading of the game and I can't imagine anyone coming to this conclusion without a prior agenda. There's nothing enlightened about solving your problems through spin attacks rather than punching; in either case it's the same simplistic "violence is an acceptable solution if you're the good guy" message that damn near every action series has. And it's absolutely bizarre to act like having cartoon animals punch or hammer robots is going to lead kids down some dark path and then go praising soldiers...like, you do know how they "deal with bad guys", right?

On 5/28/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

But it gets even worse. When Amy is using her hammer against her friends they are shown as weaker then weapons which undermines the roles of the heroes having special abilities to beat the bad guys. But then, if you take Amy’s hammer away from her she is usually made to be completely useless and helpless promoting a need for weapons and self armament. It is spectacularly tonally dissonant with the rest of the series and her optimistic ways.

I don't see anything dissonant here. When Amy hammers another hero, it's just a joke; it takes nothing away from their ability to fight bad guys. And someone whose main skill is using a weapon is obviously less capable without it than with...that's just a simple and obvious fact.

On 5/28/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

And that brings me to the image of Amy’s hammer. What does it imply if not combat. When it comes out everyone knows that Amy is intending to do harm. That does not evoke the peace that Sonic fights for and represents just by being. It instead evokes the very images of the conflict that Sonic puts an end to and is an opposite image of the optimistic girl that Amy is supposed to be.

Shit man it's almost like this is some kind of action game, where the characters fight to preserve peace or something. Why does Amy's hammer only represent combat in a negative light while Sonic spindashing through thousands of robots gets a free pass?

On 5/28/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

While it can be said that combat is as much a part of the Sonic franchise as adventure, to me part of what works is not glorifying traditional combat and instead using the fantastical specialness of a hedgehog’s ability to curl into a ball. It makes Sonic and his cast of characters unique from other franchises and can make any blue ball evoke thoughts of Sonic, or yellow with Tails, and red with Knuckles. But what about Amy? Well, when I see hammers I think of construction work, or the Animaniancs, or Thor and his hammer Mjolnir, or even Harley Quinn from Batman with the Tales of series usual being my first thought when I see the type of hammer that inspired Amy’s. It also doesn’t help that a hammer does not make me think of Sonic gameplay in any way and it does not conjure up images of rolling and running. As an Amy fan who wants to see more of her this lack of strong identifying imagery means that most people outside of the fanbase would not think Amy if you showed them a picture of a hammer limiting demand to see her.

And people outside of the fanbase aren't going to think of Sonic characters any time they see a colored ball. Obviously anything simple and relatively common is going to have associations outside of the one specific thing you're interested in. You can't force a "pink ball=Amy" association any more than they could force "hammer=Amy".

On 5/28/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

Her affiliation with her hammer makes her interchangeable with the sight of any hammer,

You just fuckin' said hammers don't make you think of Amy, but praised the series for making it so every blue ball reminds you of Sonic. You're trying to have it both ways here. Is it a good thing or a bad thing to associate characters with some simple symbolic representation? Is Amy's worth somehow emphasized more if you think of her as a pink ball instead of a hammer? How is associating her with a hammer pigeonholeing her any more than associating her with a pink ball, different only in color from every other Sonic character?

On 5/28/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

Her affiliation with her hammer and overreliance on it also cuts off her own potential for growth.

Why can't her hammer be part of her growth? Throughout this you seem to be quietly implying that any ability that isn't in some sense inherent is lesser than abilities that are, but if that is your intent you haven't actually justified it. Understanding how to properly use a weapon is a skill the same as any other, and can include or align with all sorts of physical and mental growth.

On 5/28/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

Her hammer became so relevant that when the Archie Comics did their 25^th anniversary celebration with the Mega Drive Comic, Amy was only allowed to follow along because of her hammer and how it was useful with Sonic even then seeing her as at risk if Eggman decided to go after her.

Yes, she was allowed to come along because she demonstrated A Useful Skill. If she didn't have a hammer, she'd have to prove herself useful and capable of self defense in some other way, because that is the point of the scene, not that the hammer is more important than she is.

On 5/28/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

Her hammer is treated as so representative of her that when Eggman is bested in Cascade Temple Zone and everyone attacks him, Amy is left off screen with only her hammer being visible. In the next volume things get even more out of hand with the hammer as it is practically the only reason Amy, Tails, and Knuckles are able to best a dragon robot as swinging the hammer keeps Amy safe from its attack. Yet in the same issue her hammer is then useless against an animal container that Sonic can plow through with ease using the classic spin attack which is shared by Tails and Knuckles.

It's almost like the point is that everybody has different things that they're good at and they're stronger because they work together. A point that wouldn't be served if Amy was just Tails #2, copying everything Sonic did.

On 5/28/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

She is again shown as useless if her hammer is unavailable even though she herself is a hedgehog who chases after Sonic and should be able to imitate him if Tails can. The fact that she doesn’t at all also cuts off some of her potential as a motivating character. Her and Tails were both introduced as characters who idolized Sonic and chased after him with Amy being the optimistic and cheerful one and Tails being the one who struggled to be confident. From a narrative standpoint it was a perfect opportunity to create a relationship between Tails and Amy as Amy cheered on Tails’ efforts to be like his hero even going so far as to give her best examples to show him that one could be like Sonic without being Sonic. Unfortunately it was a wasted opportunity and now outside of Sonic Mania even Tails has not attempted to be like his Hero in well over a decade.

Yeah they went in an entirely different direction with this. Rather than validating Tails always following in Sonic's footsteps, they made the point that he should be more confident in himself and do things in his own way. The actual execution of that is debatable, but I think it's pretty clear that this allows for a more developed and realized character than having him always be the copycat sidekick.

This also has absolutely nothing to do with her hammer so...???

On 5/28/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

Amy meanwhile is waiting for a game where her hammer can fit in so she can finally be playable again. If she was not so affiliated with and dependent on it she would already be playable again and accomplishing who knows what.

...have you actually looked at who's been playable in the series lately? Since '06 it's been Sonic, wereSonic, Sonic, Sonic, other Sonic, Sonic, Sonic, other Sonic, Avatar the Original Character, and Shadow as DLC. Even if Amy had been set up as a clone of Sonic, there's no guarantee she would've been playable.

On 5/28/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

Just like Tails, the game she was introduced in showed she could keep up with Sonic and make it through Eggman’s death traps

It very explicitly did not show that. Sonic 2 has Tails following behind you from Emerald Hill until Sky Chase (and popping up in the Tornado to help you out twice more) and can bop robots and run loops like Sonic, while Amy is not shown doing anything, just appearing out of nowhere to be captured and saved.

On 5/28/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

Though argued by many, I, after my long history with the franchise was able to look back and see it as the children’s franchise that it was supposed to be. A story about a blue hedgehog and his adventures and all of those he met and inspired along the way. As a children’s franchise the characters who best represented that were Tails and Amy, but where Tails was able to be like his hero for a while Amy was left out until she was given a hammer that did not allow her to truly belong. In light of the current times where equality and equal opportunity for all is being fought for in the public eye again, as well as equal representation for women, it really is a shame that Amy is held back from being able to achieve what Tails did in favor of a hammer. A message is left with Amy for any girl who wants to chase their dreams and that is that they will never be able to catch up to their heroes and so they might as well take up arms and make a ruckus until the world bends over backwards for them.

What in the fuck. Why is copying Sonic the only valid option for her? You can look up to and idolize someone while also not subsuming your own identity into theirs, giving up your own strengths to try and copy theirs. I'm not going to act like the series is some bastion of gender equality, but I don't see how it's some slight against her that she's her own character and not a copy of Sonic.

On 5/28/2018 at 12:29 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

I acknowledge its iconic place in the franchise but I would like to see Amy put it down for good and become a character like Sonic who fights for what is right and what she believes in without relying on the way of villains.

How...is using a hammer..."the way of villains"? This is just...nonsense.

Overall this all seems to have little to do with the hammer itself; it's mostly complaints about her characterization, a false dichotomy about her gameplay, expectations for the character that don't correspond with any official interpretation of the character, and some straight up bizarre ideas about weapons and violence.

If anything I think I'm more confused about why you're so against the hammer than I was before.

[Skull Leader]

Next, well see someone make a essay on why Big's fishing rod is bad, holds him back as a character and is a tool to physically torture poor Froggy. : P

Anyway, I think OP's issue has more to do with projecting their own expectations over the character, which strangely is a thing Amy often gets from a lot of people that never seen satisfied with the way she is, suggesting how she should "improve" by making her more like the other characters that roll/spindash (of which we already have lots) instead of suggesting something more unique and creative ideas that would allow the character to display it's own strengths, or that Amy had "issues" with her character from the start for having flaws (honestly, some people need to comprehend the difference between having flaws and bad characterization that exaggerates them), as if those were something bad that stands in the way of their perfect idealized version of the character... or alternatively, used by people that just don't want for the character to be there, wording their already negative opinions as if they were sound ones, hiding the ulterior motive to nitpick at anything just to undermine the character.

Isn't it funny how this never happens with the male characters, who are allowed to be any way they want without worrying of wether they live up or not to some "expectations" nor are judged if they act like boys?

 

 

[Dr. Detective]

There should be a scene where Amy is sitting at a table with everyone else around her and try as they might, they can't lift her hammer.

After everyone fails, Sonic says he can't lift it because she's using the way of the villains. Amy she picks it up with ease and says in response, "That's an interesting theory but I have a simpler one... you're all not worthy."

 

[DabigRG]

This topic is still going, huh? That's nice, I suppose.

I don't mind Amy's hammer, personally. It's her thing.

[Razule]

I think instead of a hammer, Amy should pull out a Sonic clone and hit people with it. It works exactly same, except it's a Sonic. She's imagined a Sonic to fight alongside her before so it'll work.

[Sonic Fan J]

12 hours ago, Diogenes said:

If anything I think I'm more confused about why you're so against the hammer than I was before.

This end result is an obvious failure on my part to communicate better and I don't know if I can clarify it in a way that would make sense, though I do admit looking things over again I did have a fair bit of rambling present and I have to say thanks for bringing that to my attention. 
So, to try and simplify maybe;

• I view Sonic's gameplay as the fundamentals that gameplay for all additional characters should be based upon for both consistent gameplay and marketability based on the original games. As a result I dislike the apparent need to divorce one of my favorite characters from that gameplay in exchange for a different type that is neither consistent in gameplay or similar marketability (e.g. exploit pinball-like physics and platforming by swinging a toy hammer is marketing phrase that just doesn't make sense to me)
• I believe as a hedgehog character Amy should be able to roll as curling is natural to her species and disagree that she should be deprived of that in favor of a hammer
• My primary enjoyment with the hammer gameplay was only ever achieved in the hub worlds of Adventure 1
• How I personally have inferred the series and Amy leaves me seeing her as significantly more competent than anyone gives her credit for pre-Adventure and that she does not even need the hammer
• My perception of how children and young children attempt to be like, imitate, and follow in the footsteps of their idols is based on my experience growing up and how I and my friends did indeed desire to be like our respective idols
• I perceive Amy's actions as villainous when her friends shirk away from her in fear when she threatens them to get her way with her hammer. I can't see a joke in this situation when fear is involved as it makes me think of armed robbery or coercion.
• I feel Amy and Tails' relationship would be more dynamic and involved if she, like Tails, attempted to imitate Sonic in her own way as a fellow hedgehog and used that experience to help motivate the frequently lacking in confidence Tails.
• I believe that in a children's series aimed at grade schoolers that if combat and violence is a part of it it should be presented in a way that even grade schoolers can recognize that can't imitate. Showing that a toy can be used as a weapon clashes with this belief.
• I don't like seeing Amy represented by her hammer instead of herself and dislike even as a joke hearing that Amy is her hammer or vice versa

I don't believe the above bullet points cover everything or the history that gave rise to these viewpoints but maybe this more straightforward list will make things clearer and more concise. Sure some of my points could still be based off of characterization and gameplay expectations, but characterization informs how we feel about the characters and everyone has their own gameplay expectations for the series.

On other points @Diogenes

13 hours ago, Diogenes said:

This is an incredibly tortured reading of the game and I can't imagine anyone coming to this conclusion without a prior agenda.

Believe it or not I didn't have a prior agenda or any agenda at all. It was how I saw things when looking back at the franchise as a whole based on my experiences and changing perspectives. Forgive me my ignorance but I don't see what makes this a "tortured" reading of the game or why I would even need to have a prior agenda to see it in the way that I do. To me the thoughts came naturally. I find your statement of me having a bizarre outlook is perhaps more accurate as I frequently find it difficult to communicate due to people not being able to wrap their head around my view point rather frequently even in person on any number of topics.

13 hours ago, Diogenes said:

This is nothing more than speculation. You are filling in blank spaces with explanations that are convenient for your argument, not ones actually backed up by evidence in the game. You can't simply assume that she's gone through all the same traps and trials that Sonic did simply because we only saw how Sonic got from one place to another. By that logic we'd be equally justified in assuming Eggman travels around dodging his own traps.

My answer to this is Labyrinth Zone where we do indeed see Eggman passing through his own traps and Amy arriving at the end of Metalic Madness from where we arrived at the fight from. Sure Labyrinth Zone is a boss fight but we still it happen in game where Eggman passes through his own traps. And for Amy in Metallic Madness we saw the route she arrives from and there is no sign in game of any other way to get into that area. You can accuse me of seeing things that weren't intended to be seen or aren't there but I can't help but see it. To me it is obvious.

-----

12 hours ago, Skull Leader said:

Anyway, I think OP's issue has more to do with projecting their own expectations over the character, which strangely is a thing Amy often gets from a lot of people that never seen satisfied with the way she is, suggesting how she should "improve" by making her more like the other characters that roll/spindash (of which we already have lots) instead of suggesting something more unique and creative ideas that would allow the character to display it's own strengths, or that Amy had "issues" with her character from the start for having flaws (honestly, some people need to comprehend the difference between having flaws and bad characterization that exaggerates them), as if those were something bad that stands in the way of their perfect idealized version of the character... or alternatively, used by people that just don't want for the character to be there, wording their already negative opinions as if they were sound ones, hiding the ulterior motive to nitpick at anything just to undermine the character.

Isn't it funny how this never happens with the male characters, who are allowed to be any way they want without worrying of wether they live up or not to some "expectations" nor are judged if they act like boys?

 

 

My expectations and wants for Amy if anything would be more a return to and continued development from where she was in Adventure 2 while also not divorcing her from the gameplay of the original games. Amy in Adventure 2 was everything I love about her character in a single game from her being playful and optimistic to bratty and whiny to hardworking and motivating others. Sure I'll complain about her not being playable as much as the next Amy fan, and even complain about how the hostage situation she was in near the end, but it is still my favorite Amy appearance. Why she didn't continue to develop from that point is a mistake I find a shame Sonic Team can never erase.

As for the male characters, my experience is I can say anything I want about them and how I expect them to be and no one bats an eye. The closest I have had to anyone really questioning me and my expectations of Sonic himself was asking me if I wanted Sonic to be an asshole. To that I gladly said yes, one with a heart of gold and strong sense of justice because that is who Sonic is to me. It is only when I speak of Amy that I get called out for my view point and opinion on a regular basis. So yes it is strange. I can talk about the male characters in anyway I want but Amy I can't. Strange.

Also, in my personal experience, though not within the Sonic fan base, I have seen men and boys treated like dirt if they don't act like emotionless and rugged rocks with some people going so far as to say they are failures as men. So it does happen, even if not here.

[Skull Leader]

I too want Amy to be relevant again and do stuff that matters, but I don't think there is any need of changing her character (bubbly, energetic and super-determined girl with a bit of a feisty side and childish impulses, but who ultimately is well meaning and has a strong sense of compassion and empathy) to get there when the main roadblock right now not just for Amy, but for any and all characters not introduced in the Genesis trilogy is Sonic Team thinking that only Tails and Knuckles matter, that they should be put on a pedestal and be given priority over everyone else. Just changing that one attitude from them would make a big difference.

I really don't like the idea of tampering with Amy's character since a lot of people come to the misguided conclussion that the only way to improve this type of characters is by removing their flaws and quirks, leaving behind a dull and boring shell of a role model. Likewise, I'm not fond either of people stating that a characters flaws are a problem or some kind of mistake when actually those exist for a very good reason, as they make the characters feel a bit more like us instead of being something idealized and perfect with which the average mortal can't really relate to. Sometimes just from reading the posts of people who seem to be really annoyed at the idea of characters being silly, flawed, who make mistakes or contradict themselves, who do things that we humans also do, I can't help but to wonder just what kind of media they have watched to become so sensitive to that, to they point that they even mix bad characterization with flaws, either willingly or not.

[Sonic Fan J]

Removing flaws and quirks is why I don't really like BOOM! Amy. You sum it up pretty spectacularly @Skull Leader the type of personality that Amy has

20 minutes ago, Skull Leader said:

bubbly, energetic and super-determined girl with a bit of a feisty side and childish impulses, but who ultimately is well meaning and has a strong sense of compassion and empathy

but to me these traits either are almost never used in favor of her crush on Sonic or making her out at worst to be violently unhinged. As that second representation is usual played with her hammer it is part of where my distaste for it on the characterization side comes from; affiliation with lazy, misinformed writing that plays a trait so far out of proportion that she appears to favor armed coercion. Nothing about those types of portrayals match how you describe her above and by affiliation I can't hep but dislike the hammer from that angle.

EDIT:

Forgot to say that I would add playful to your description though @Skull Leader.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Sonic Fan J
Adding to comment

[StaticMania]

1 hour ago, Sonic Fan J said:

but to me these traits either are almost never used in favor of her crush on Sonic or making her out at worst to be violently unhinged....

To you...? You'd still have to be living in 2006 or prior in order to believe this and not notice her violent tendencies have been near non-existent since.

Also 2000.

[Sonic Fan J]

20 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

To you...? You'd still have to be living in 2006 or prior in order to believe this and not notice her violent tendencies have been near non-existent since.

Also 2000.

A lot of the franchise and how the characters have been used throughout its history are all relatively fresh in my mind due to my recent personal retrospection of it as a whole. And since my favorite game is still CD from 93 (though the Windows 95 ver. is the one I played the most) my favorite appearance of Amy being from so long ago really shouldn't be too surprising. If you want something more recent that I like though then IDW issue 2 tickled me in all the right ways personality. Though to be fair involving what I like out of Amy, she hasn't really been anything but present in recent games so it is kind of hard to find more recent examples good or bad. All that said, that lack of being anything more than present does nothing to change how I see her and her hammer, and what I naturally affiliate her hammer with. It's kind of the problem when SEGA refuses to focus on more than Sonic, Tail's, Eggman, and the new character of the current game.

[MetalSkulkBane]

Ay ay ay, so much words and yet so much not said. "Brevity is soul of the wit", anyone knows that quote?

Anyway, some points I agree (hammer makes it hard to fit Amy into Sonic gameplay) some don't (Amy in Archie Mega Drive) many you just blew out of proportions (that thing about what kids will learn). But to be brief

1) The fact that hammer doesn't work NOW, doesn't mean it can't work EVER. In fact, look at Amy written by Flynn in Archie/IDW. Is she a bad character? Does the hammer only focus of her character? Is it detrimental in any scene to her character? For me, all answers are "no". Games are different topic, but I believe there is a big chance Mania 2 will have Amy as fun playable character, with her hammer.

2) More importantly, no matter how long your essay is, it's useless without Constructive Criticism . You don't like the hammer? Fine give us better alternative. To me acrobatics aren't enough, making her Sonic clone is too boring, crossbow would work even worse in Sonic gameplay and cards could in theory work, but aren't as intuitive weapon as huge hammer, rolling hedgehog or spiked fist.

Overall I don't love Piko Hammer, but it's functional in many ways and I got use to it. I would need something more constructive arguments to ditch it.

[DabigRG]

17 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Removing flaws and quirks is why I don't really like BOOM! Amy. @Skull Leader.

Okay, this where I can actually step and point out that you're oversimplifying things and/or wrong: Boom!Amy does have flaws and especially quirks. It's one of the reasons why she's one of the more "fleshed out" and versatile characters in the Boom cast.

If anything, I'd say certain people's issues comes from the fact that it's not explicity/exclusively Game!Amy's traits and flaws.

[Sonic Fan J]

32 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Ay ay ay, so much words and yet so much not said. "Brevity is soul of the wit", anyone knows that quote?

Anyway, some points I agree (hammer makes it hard to fit Amy into Sonic gameplay) some don't (Amy in Archie Mega Drive) many you just blew out of proportions (that thing about what kids will learn). But to be brief

1) The fact that hammer doesn't work NOW, doesn't mean it can't work EVER. In fact, look at Amy written by Flynn in Archie/IDW. Is she a bad character? Does the hammer only focus of her character? Is it detrimental in any scene to her character? For me, all answers are "no". Games are different topic, but I believe there is a big chance Mania 2 will have Amy as fun playable character, with her hammer.

2) More importantly, no matter how long your essay is, it's useless without Constructive Criticism . You don't like the hammer? Fine give us better alternative. To me acrobatics aren't enough, making her Sonic clone is too boring, crossbow would work even worse in Sonic gameplay and cards could in theory work, but aren't as intuitive weapon as huge hammer, rolling hedgehog or spiked fist.

Overall I don't love Piko Hammer, but it's functional in many ways and I got use to it. I would need something more constructive arguments to ditch it.

Fair points @MetalSkulkBane, and I am open to giving SEGA the chance to change my mind. And maybe I did blow somethings out of proportion but that's just the way I see it regardless. That said though, anytime I see Amy use her hammer for armed coercion with fear and success as the outcome it will bother me. Ian Flynn though has done a great job so far with IDW, and how he handled Amy post Archie reboot made me want to see more of her friendship with Sally. Until then I never even really cared for Sally so I have some hope with Ian Flynn. Though to be fair, Amy's hammer is just there in IDW issue 2 outside of using it to get Sonic to the drop ship, so there really isn't anything for me to like or dislike with the hammer there.

As for constructive criticism, I've left a few examples throughout the thread (including a way to use Amy's hammer in a unique way that fits the original Genesis/Mega Drive style), though I doubt it would change anyone's mind. That's fine though since that was never my intent. I was mostly trying to put my viewpoint out there comprehensively but my viewpoint on comprehensive probably just confused more people than it helped see why I dislike it. I was probably too argumentative at points as well instead of making sure to frame things as being my point of view and why I have that point of view. That though is part of the reason I'm glad this thread is still going. I get to see more viewpoints that let me reflect on my own and have the chance to clarify my viewpoint in an environment that doesn't derail other threads.

Lastly, regardless of my opinion, Amy has had the hammer for over twenty years now so I don't see SEGA getting rid of it all. It's why I'm hopeful with the Classic/Modern divide that they will gamble on using her classic design as a way to explore what they could have done with her before the guys at AM2 gave it to her. A pipe dream maybe, but it's where I stand for now.

@DabigRG, I loved her in the first episode and her all around zaniness but the more I watched of BOOM! the more flat, one dimensional, and forced she started feeling to me. To be fair I need to watch season 2 still, so maybe she improves there and I just need to give her more of a chance. By the end of season 1 though she seemed to have no personality of her own to me and just felt like a mouth piece for the writers to tell SJW jokes. Wrong or oversimplifying, that's just how it came across to me.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Sonic Fan J

[DabigRG]

21 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

 

@DabigRG, I loved her in the first episode and her all around zaniness but the more I watched of BOOM! the more flat, one dimensional, and forced she started feeling to me. To be fair I need to watch season 2 still, so maybe she improves there and I just need to give her more of a chance. By the end of season 1 though she seemed to have no personality of her own to me and just felt like a mouth piece for the writers to tell SJW jokes. Wrong or oversimplifying, that's just how it came across to me.

Oh yeah, she gets a couple of good moments and even a few episodes in Season 2, one of which was somewhat personal but that's all I'll say on that.

As for the SJW thing, not that I'm the most versed on the hot button topic, but I never really saw her portrayal as being that. Even in the one scene/joke that people primarily cite as a take that against them, I always just came off more as  Amy being particularly self-righteous and "preachy" by emphasizing her gender as well and Knuckles of all characters realizing the irony in that. 

Then again, I'm not entirely sure if SJW's are a thing that happens to include straw feminism and if that's just the meaning it's been assigned as of late.

[Sonic Fan J]

Well I'm recovering from dental surgery so maybe I'll use my down time between work shifts to squeeze in season 2 of BOOM! and see what I think. If they make a character out of Amy again in season 2 like at the start of season 1 then that will go a long way to improving my opinion of her in BOOM!. I'll see though if they avoid any of my problems with the hammer along the way. Hoping for the best.

[Tornado]

On 5/29/2018 at 12:31 PM, Shadowlax said:

Hey, not for nothing but uh? Are tired of the idea of a forum? Because maybe being a mod , isn't the best thing to do , maybe?

Because it seems like you are tired of the idea of a forum, and fan opinions what have you. 

Maybe the best thing to do is to not come up with incredibly labored, horrifically overthought interpretations of characters as a headcanon based on very little actual in game occurrences (and absolutely nothing that has been made since most of the people on this forum were born) and then rebel against their actual canon personalities (and not even their actual canon personalities now, but ones over a decade out of date) when it doesn't meet them. After three pages, that's still all this topic comes off as. That is, at least, when it's not playing this:

Absolutely arrow straight as a narrative argument.

 

 

Again, your response to my initial post was maybe the creator's just hadn't put enough thought into Amy, as support of a thread making points based partially on secondhand interpretations of throwaway backstory text from a throwaway spinoff game from a very blatantly retconned version of a character from over two decades ago. For crying out loud, part of the OP even implies it's especially notable that Tails has so much respect for Sonic because in real life foxes and hedgehogs are enemies! As much as anyone can guarantee anything they didn't have a part of, I can guarantee no one involved with Sonic 2 ever took that into consideration when establishing their relationship.

On 5/29/2018 at 12:31 PM, Shadowlax said:

Magical jewels guarded by a shaman then embue power to the individuals who weild it, and the ability to manipulate elements around you like fire and time and space don't sound magical to you? 

Ok, sure. 

Maybe if the series didn't overwhelmingly use them instead as just a means to power industrial equipment and rocketships and burned up nearly all of that Mayan-based mysticism stuff in a single game from literally twenty years ago, yeah.

 

On 5/29/2018 at 12:31 PM, Shadowlax said:

No its not? Those are shadow andriods, and the point was in all three of those games was that shadow was special and could not infact be replicated. To the degree in which, eggman took to try to lie about shadow to convince him to listen to him. To convince he could replicate him at his whim. But he couldn't...which was the point. 

If you don't remember shadow the hedgehog, I don't blame you its not good. But I do, and I will bring it up. Also if you think shadow being able to replicated is the point of SA2, you didn't play that game.

I believe the point was that you brought up was:

On 5/29/2018 at 6:56 AM, Shadowlax said:

he hasn't been quantified, analyzed , or duplicated

Ignoring the three games where he was the primary focus where the various storylines were intertwined with attempts to do all three. Regardless of how much of a success you want to give the efforts involved, that was literally the backstory for all three titles.