Even Yuji Naka didnt want a cutesy funny Sonic

[Almar]

12 minutes ago, Wraith said:

It wouldn't have been good for the series to keep revisiting the same themes over and over. 

You say that, and yet doing otherwise hasn't worked out well has it?

[Wraith]

11 minutes ago, Almar said:

You say that, and yet doing otherwise hasn't worked out well has it?

It doesn't seem to hurt most long running series. Everything wrong with Sonic comes down to poor managment 

[Multikaris]

1 hour ago, Almar said:

Honestly, if we accept what Naka wanted then that means Modern Sonic and Classic Sonic are one character who live in a world with both anthros and humans with Genesis games happening in a set of islands while the Adventure games happened in human territories.

Point is, if Sonic's current handlers don't seem to take Naka's word seriously then can you expect us to?

And you would prefer?

 

And I do still take Naka’s word seriously. 

[ComeAsYouAre]

12 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

I never suggested modern sonic should be replaced by classic for 3D. Modern sonic games could still be created even while a 3D classic sonic game existed. Modern games give you an opportunity to explore ideas outside of the typical sonic formula, as well as adding lots of new characters and stories. And it's not like classic games couldn't do that either; I'm merely just stating that I'd like for one single 3D game to channel all of that classic essence into a proper, smash hit of a 3D game. 

I would not limit classic sonic to 2D because even modern sonic has had 2D games. There's no reason to forbid classic to do 3D, especially if his games turn out to be better than modern's.

If it took them four years to make a short game like Forces then imagine how long it would take to make a Classic game in 3D, remember that back in the genesis era Sonic's Levels were 4X larger than Mario's , and now remember how long it takes for Nintendo to make 3D Mario games , despite Nintendo having much more money 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

1 hour ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

If it took them four years to make a short game like Forces 

This doesn't mean much when Generations, a much better and longer game, took half the time to produce. Same with unleashed. 

There has been no such attempt at classic in 3D (SA1 coming the closest and even that didnt take 4 years). So theres no barometer on how long that kind of game might take. A proof of concept doesnt even exist as far as we know so it makes no sense to talk about why it wouldn't work when: 1) it hasnt really been tried and 2), the franchise 3D has still not really settled on or found an excellent 3D formula over 20 years later. 

[StaticMania]

Yes, that means it would take even longer than 4 years.

[MainJP]

6 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

This doesn't mean much when Generations, a much better and longer game, took half the time to produce. Same with unleashed. 

There has been no such attempt at classic in 3D (SA1 coming the closest and even that didnt take 4 years). So theres no barometer on how long that kind of game might take. A proof of concept doesnt even exist as far as we know so it makes no sense to talk about why it wouldn't work when: 1) it hasnt really been tried and 2), the franchise 3D has still not really settled on or found an excellent 3D formula over 20 years later. 

SA1 was a blatant attempt at Classic in 3D.

[Diogenes]

It sort of was, and it sort of wasn't. Even if the intentions were there what it ended up being is at best a stripped down and heavily automated reinterpretation of the classic gameplay, and couldn't really tap into much of what made the classics great.

[BaronGrackle]

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

It sort of was, and it sort of wasn't. Even if the intentions were there what it ended up being is at best a stripped down and heavily automated reinterpretation of the classic gameplay, and couldn't really tap into much of what made the classics great.

...until years pass, and you compare it to future 3D Sonic games.

[StaticMania]

Of course, relatively it IS the most Classic of the 3D Sonic games.

That's not really the point it looks like.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

4 hours ago, MainJP said:

SA1 was a blatant attempt at Classic in 3D.

Trust me, I acknowledge SA1 often for being the only game to legitimately attempt it. I just think that wasnt its primary focus and it's not something I blame sonic team for. SA1 was the title that was supposed to sell the dreamcast and thus SEGA asked for it to be a lot more than just a sonic game...which was a mistake because the formula in 3D had not been established yet. Thus the game suffered in so many fundamental ways that ultimately ended up being a patchwork fix project. You can tell what it was trying to do but it did not succeed in any smooth way whatsoever.

So like others have said, it kind of was and most definitely was the only one to seriously try....but it also kind of wasnt and the template was not successfully set.

My point is that in my strong opinion we really really need a game that boils down the essence of what Sonic was meant to be in the looks department, the sound department, and most importantly the "feel" department in regards to the gameplay. I think re-establishing those things as well as the character himself would instantly right a lot of issues with the franchise, especially in regard to broader appeal. Hot on the heels of Mania I think it is the perfect opportunity to try something like a 3D classic sonic. And the best part about a 3D classic game is that a future sonic adventure sequel title could be built on top of the formula (although if I were to bet anything I'd guess an adventure remake will appear first). I just think it is clearly the right way to handle the current situation, the best way to set up the future. 

[Wraith]

Kinda forced to confront the fact that I don't care that much about Classic Sonic anymore. The gameplay is good, but they're not doing anything with the characters or the world and the cutesy mickey mouse type cereal mascot Sonic isn't for me compared to the one I grew up with.

I also feel like fans kind of overrate the classic games. Strengths that only really exist in Sonic 3 and Knuckles and Sonic Mania are attributed to all of them and the sea of low quality platformers that came out around the main series are largely ignore. Sonic 3 can only be considered one of the all time greats without considering that they had to release it in two halves that don't work nearly as well when they're apart. I just fear that the way people view this era has become a little rose-tinted.

You can read about critics getting tired of Sonic by 1994, so giving him a bit of a refresh in 1999 made sense. J-pop music had become associated with a cutesy vibe, so they embraced rock, jazz rap etc. Sonic became longer and lankier like a Looney toon and the graffiti style given to the artwork made the game pop with the rebellious attitude Sonic was supposed to have had all along. Nearly every aesthetic change the Adventure games made made sense to me on paper. 

The gameplay is a different story, but consider how little Mario or Zelda resemble their original 2D outings in their first attempts and Sonic Adventure makes surprisingly few concessions on the classic Sonic feel in comparison. The levels aren't as dense but that's something that you can still work on. 

If I were given creative control over 3D Sonic I feel like a similar openness to modernizing the character again would be  for the best. Sonic is supposed to be timeless, but part of that comes from a willingness to adapt.

[StaticMania]

I feel like the timeless aspect is suppose to reduce the need to adapt.

[Wraith]

1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

I feel like the timeless aspect is suppose to reduce the need to adapt.

That's never been true for anything 

[StaticMania]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

That's never been true for anything 

Which appears to be why things end after a while...even if.

I mean small changes are one thing, but conforming to new standards is...

[Plasme]

I really hope this myth that Forces was in development for a long time can finally go and die. Much of the time was developing the engine, and the actual game was not in production that long.

The engine serves the game, but most of a game's components such as level design, art, sound and music are seperate from the engine. Well, outside the engine accomodating them.

Rushing out games more quickly will just get us back into the PS2 and Xbox 360 hellhole of games and we dont want that.

On 8/25/2019 at 12:14 PM, Wraith said:

Kinda forced to confront the fact that I don't care that much about Classic Sonic anymore. The gameplay is good, but they're not doing anything with the characters or the world and the cutesy mickey mouse type cereal mascot Sonic isn't for me compared to the one I grew up with.

I also feel like fans kind of overrate the classic games. Strengths that only really exist in Sonic 3 and Knuckles and Sonic Mania are attributed to all of them and the sea of low quality platformers that came out around the main series are largely ignore. Sonic 3 can only be considered one of the all time greats without considering that they had to release it in two halves that don't work nearly as well when they're apart. I just fear that the way people view this era has become a little rose-tinted.

Sonic 2 is an all time classic and better than any 3D Sonic game by a mile.

Sonic 1 and CD, while flawed, are better than every 3D Sonic game except maybe Generations, and even that is debatable.

People prefer the 2D games not because of nostalgia, but because they are just better games.

[StaticMania]

7 minutes ago, Plasme said:

People prefer the 2D games not because of nostalgia, but because they are just better games.

I thought this was an urban legend.

It totally has to be nostalgia right?

Everyone knows what nostalgia feels like apparently.

[Soniman]

45 minutes ago, Plasme said:

 

Sonic 1 and CD, while flawed, are better than every 3D Sonic game except maybe Generations, and even that is debatable.

People prefer the 2D games not because of nostalgia, but because they are just better games.

Idk man I'd rather play at least half the 3D catalog then either 1 or CD easily lol

[Splash the Otter]

23 minutes ago, Plasme said:

Sonic 2 is an all time classic and better than any 3D Sonic game by a mile.

Sonic 1 and CD, while flawed, are better than every 3D Sonic game except maybe Generations, and even that is debatable.

People prefer the 2D games not because of nostalgia, but because they are just better games.

Sounds like someone just doesn't like 3D Sonic games.

[StaticMania]

24 minutes ago, Soniman said:

Idk man I'd rather play at least half the 3D catalog then either 1 or CD easily lol

How many is that?

[BaronGrackle]

39 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

Sounds like someone just doesn't like 3D Sonic games.

Yeah, I honestly think it's this. I enjoy playing Sonic 4 over the 3D games, generally. And I don't approve of Sonic 4. 

[Soniman]

23 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

How many is that?

Sa1,2 Heroes, Colors, Gens...yeah that's about half 

[StaticMania]

6 minutes ago, Soniman said:

Sa1,2 Heroes, Colors, Gens...yeah that's about half 

Are you counting both Storybook games as one?

Or...is it Secret Rings or Black Knght?

[Soniman]

Just now, StaticMania said:

Are you counting both Storybook games as one?

Or...is it Secret Rings or Black Knght?

I don't even count those as entertainment media so no 

[Plasme]

1 hour ago, Soniman said:

Sa1,2 Heroes, Colors, Gens...yeah that's about half 

For as many flaws as Sonic 1 and Sonic CD have, they are at least, for the most point, well made games which accomplish what they aim to do (Sonic 1 as a combination of fast paced levels with slower paced more traditional ones and Sonic CD as an exploration more methodical take on the gameplay).

Sonic Adventure is lucky to even function correctly without clipping you out of the map and breaking at the seams. Sonic Adventure 2 is better, but 2/3rds of the game is a chore and utterly unfun.

Heroes is just downright horrible to control, has too much focus on fighting enemies and forces you to beat the game four times with minimal changes.

Colors is good, but flawed and a bit generic in its platforming, and Gens is similar, but far superior to it and other 3D Sonic games. But I did forget Colors, that's probably better than most of Sonic 1 so fair point.

2 hours ago, Splash the Otter said:

Sounds like someone just doesn't like 3D Sonic games.

I love Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2. I played both games on the Dreamcast and they are close to my heart. I often go back to them on Steam and replay them. I even like Heroes, despite it being much more unenjoyable. And I think Gens is a great game, so that's definitely not true.

I just recognise that virtually all 3D Sonic games, barring Colors and Generations, are unfinished messes with horrible issues plaguing them.

It's the same way I enjoy Sonic R a great deal and would buy it immediately if it came on Steam, but I know that it's a terrible game.