Would you change/fix Shadow origin?

[Darth InVaders]

Honestly I would not change much of Shadow's backstory.

I would have provided better foreshadowing of what was to come during the course of SA2's story - namely the prototype in SA2 and aliens in Shadow's game. A simple scene of Shadow releasing the Biolizard (while not truly revealing it onscreen to the player) earlier in the story would work, and someone could easily have asked what need anyone would have for a planet destroying cannon (the unspoken but only possible answer being a planet sized threat which could only be alien).

And then in Shadow's game, I'd dig into the GUN Commander a little more. His still living mentor is the previous GUN Commander who presided over the criminal acts GUN did 50 years ago. This mentor is a haggard old man in a wheel chair (if anyone has ever seen Batman Mask of the Phantasm, picture something like the character Salvatore Valestra - Link, Link). Back 50 years ago, the mentor as GUN Commander feared Gerald and wanted to destroy him, when the future GUN Commander as a child comes to him to explain the scary looking monsters he witnessed Gerald with (the scene where he saw Gerald and Black Doom waking Shadow), the mentor then uses this info to initiate GUN's takedown on ARK. Part of Shadow's story in this game is taking down those responsible for this crime as he discovers his relationship to Doom. And add humor, parodying the grim dark and gritty similar to how the original Mirage Ninja Turtles did.

I'd also drop the importance of the color black from the Black Arms, it borders on racist.

[Tornado]

No one remembers Knuckles' tragic past or that of his clan because Sonic Adventure's storyline was ultimately thrown away in the greater scheme of the rest of the series since then.

[Ashwalking Bat]

On 4/20/2018 at 9:33 PM, Shadowlax said:

I don't agree. 

I think shadow's at his best in sonic 06, where he has grown up. And for him to grow up, the alien and wondering who he is stuff...has to occur. That's why I advocate for the alien stuff , it causes a much better narrative over all. At least in my opinion, anyway

I'll agree on the front that 06 Shadow does seem to have his shit together and it's true that him wondering about the past is something that must occur. But that's where we hit hit a impasse. I personally see the stuff with the Black Arms as forced. It would of been a more interesting concept if there was a bit more done with the concept. Though if anything, the whole gobbaldie gook with the 'black' aliens just shouldn't of existed. Not to mention there was stuff that did contradict SA2, or at least it was placed in such a way where it almost feels like StH is purposely retconning some of Shadow's backstory, instead of expanding upon it. But that's my two cents on the matter.

[Shadowlax]

36 minutes ago, Ashwalking Bat said:

I'll agree on the front that 06 Shadow does seem to have his shit together and it's true that him wondering about the past is something that must occur. But that's where we hit hit a impasse. I personally see the stuff with the Black Arms as forced. It's would of been a more interesting concept if there was a bit more done with the concept. Though if anything, the whole gobbaldie gook with the 'black' aliens just shouldn't of existed. Not to mention there was stuff that did contradict SA2, or at least it was placed in such a way where it almost feels like StH is purposely retconning some of Shadow's backstory, instead of expanding upon it. But that's my two cents on the matter.

Yeah

Its retconning the shit out of sa2. Hold on , allow me to businessman real quick

Puts on a suit

Brass tax, if/when sonic gets rebooted, or its 3d element gets rebooted, they are going full alien maria and gerald doesn't exist. Not only do the other robotniks add an angle to ivo that never gets addressed and only exists because a bad writer at the time couldn't think of why an evil scientist would break into a government base. Its just artistically incongruent with what's being presented with the rest of the series I guess. Its a whole series of overly serious humans that don't really matter besides dying or being part of gun. Who doesn't matter unless shadow is there. And given Sega seems to be full on shoving them out of the way at this point, doesn't really matter at all..

What's infinitely more sellable is " My dad is an alien " which can be a toy, and then you can give shadow cool alien transformations ( which they kinda did , but could do more ) that they can also sell to children. And along with a narrative angle , this is also the angle i'm looking at. I don't think GUN, Gerald or Maria as they presented fit with what they want sonic to be. And I can just seem them ridding him of that first more than the alien thing. They will still be tragedy, Shadow's mother or father can be " maria " , but at the end of the day as much as I like sonic adventure its weird mess of plot holes filed with a bunch of stuff that kind of doesn't fit the series anymore. One of my parents is an alien and I got alien powers, but my parents are dead and I got kidnapped so i'm kinda upset. Simplfies the idea, gives you toys to sell, and is congruent with series direction given there are just aliens out and about on sonic's world now. And everything seems to be more " world " based. Pushing humans more and more out the frame. 

So I guess to answer your queary, yes the black arms are forced, and they will probably be forced again because they don't want to have to deal with the baggage of sonic adventure 2 being shadow's plot if they start using him fuckton again.

I think I already mentioned this in thread. Given they got movies and comics and shit. They would probably be a good time, to just strait up reboot several of the origins of several characters, and parts of the world itself. You know they have been itching for non attached knuckles for quite some time, and this would be a very good time. 

[Diogenes]

9 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Brass tax, if/when sonic gets rebooted, or its 3d element gets rebooted, they are going full alien maria and gerald doesn't exist. Not only do the other robotniks add an angle to ivo that never gets addressed and only exists because a bad writer at the time couldn't think of why an evil scientist would break into a government base. Its just artistically incongruent with what's being presented with the rest of the series I guess.

How is his backstory in SA2 more incongruent with the series than making him half alien?

I mean there's a lot I don't like about SA2, but at least a mad scientist named Robotnik making a fake hedgehog had some precedent; the Black Arms just came out of nowhere and have no connection to anything.

[Cuz]

I'm also of the opinion that as of '06 Shadow's on solid ground, I wouldn't want to change anything and have another alien invasion muck all that progress up. I like the idea of Shadow as a 007 style agent for GUN. Just lean a little harder into that characterization.

And Gerald and Maria's existence is keeping with Adventure 1's theme of delving into a character's family/ancient history. Adventure 2 is just doing for Robotnik what Adventure 1 did for Knuckles. They're not a contrived excuse to sack a military base, but a resounding narrative theme the two titles share. I wouldn't want to wash that detail out.

[Shadowlax]

7 hours ago, Diogenes said:

How is his backstory in SA2 more incongruent with the series than making him half alien?

I mean there's a lot I don't like about SA2, but at least a mad scientist named Robotnik making a fake hedgehog had some precedent; the Black Arms just came out of nowhere and have no connection to anything.

Eh, it didn't? Metal sonic is, that a robot. The story suggests that 50 years earlier another robotnik...somehow literally created a life. There is no precedence for this , in the series, whatsoever. Despite him being created, or so what understand, shadow is in  fact a real hedgehog. He created a life, that' a weird unique thing that has no precedence in sonic whatsoever.That kind of sort of goes against previously established possiblities in sonic...and ever established in sonic post shadow, and previously established themes in the series. Along with that, the reason that scientist even has the last name robotnik seems to be some bad writer couldn't come up with a reason why an evil scientist would break into a base to steal technology with out being personality motivated. So it also adds a family to eggman, that seem much more sympathatic than eggman that litterally does nothing for eggman as character. This just my personal opinion, I don't want eggman to have family. I just want him to be some asshole, and him having a family espically one with such a sympathic past adds a weird backstory to him kinda that never actually comes into play in regards to his character. 

It isn't just the robotnik's either. Its GUN. Its also GUN, gun as it is is weird and filled with humans no one cares about and kinda doesn't need to exist anymore. 

Black arms, at least how I see it. The last of a race of beings who were kind of dicks and now they are all dead... is a thing that kind of already exists in the series.  And shadow handling that problem differently than chuckles, is ...interesting. They did it the comic, its actually really interesting, and the two characters relate to eachother on that level. And it gives unique enemies and problems for shadow to address. But back to the point of fitting, while i will admit they weren't the most fittting when they started, i'm talking about now. And now given there are aliens who live on the planet, and there is just alien life estblished in multiple sonic series and games. I dunno an alien a long time ago making a baby with a hedgehog because they loved eachother sounds like just a cheesey enough story that would really fit with modern sonic. While yes , gun or some orginization kidnapping him and trying to experiment on him and failing could and problably should still be a factor. You don't really need a govenment conpriacy I feel like that subjectmatter is way too complicated and weird for sonic. And this...simplfies it down a ton. 

6 hours ago, Cuz said:

I'm also of the opinion that as of '06 Shadow's on solid ground, I wouldn't want to change anything and have another alien invasion muck all that progress up.

That happened in the comic and its the best characterization of shadow in years, and it results in one of the best characteriations of knuckles in years. And gives us one of the best sonic villians in years.

It literally was a net gain for everyone involved except for rouge. Who lacked characterization and gained a dislocated arm. 

Quote

 

I like the idea of Shadow as a 007 style agent for GUN. Just lean a little harder into that characterization.

I don't. Because the comic , again characterizes that relationship perfectly. Shadow isn't 007 , he's wolverine. They don't like him, they don't trust him. They trust rouge. He is a thing that they cannot control, cannot fight and cannot defeat who is willing to work with an an agent they have. They view him as a monster and don't trust him. And to be 007 he would have to be privy to secret info I don't think they are confortable sharing. Yeah shadow and the commander aren't beefing, but he doesn't like or trust shadow still. That sort of underlying resentment is genuinely interesting. And gets shadow, feeling self conscious and having character flaws. An entire organization worshiping him and telling him he's the coolest strongest agent ever who gets all the girls seems like a waste of his character. That " am I a monster, regardless i'll do the best I can" idealogy is what makes shadow interesting. 

Also rouge is already 007 basically 

Quote

And Gerald and Maria's existence is keeping with Adventure 1's theme of delving into a character's family/ancient history. Adventure 2 is just doing for Robotnik what Adventure 1 did for Knuckles. They're not a contrived excuse to sack a military base, but a resounding narrative theme the two titles share. I wouldn't want to wash that detail out.

It doesn't do that. 

He literally doesn't care about them. Shadow cares about them. 

His grandad literally created life, Literally creating a being that seems to be growing more and more powerful as time goes on to a point where is now able to manipulate time and space with out catalysts. This man was taken and killed for his knowledge. For a guy who lives his life by " I'll do what evil science I want , i'm an evil genious ", that should piss him off. He doesn't care, also I don't think eggman even cares that maria exists. 

And you would think that ok, maybe he has reverence and respect for shadow due to the relation. He doesn't, infact its the opposite. He literally tries to convince shadow he's an android so he would listen to him and then only apologizes because shadow threaten to kill him. 

Knuckles being the last of his people is important, its important to his character. Him seeing them is important

We didn't know these two fuckers existed untill sonic adventure 2. And eggman doesn't care they fucking exist, and doesn't even care his grandfather literally did the thing that mary shelly had warned about, successfully. Created a fucking life. 

They could be named gerald and maria poopbutt and that story would be the goddamn same. 

Some bad writer was like " why would eggman break into a base and steal something, he's an evil genius he could create anything " and then went " what if his grandpa made it " 

[Diogenes]

5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Eh, it didn't? Metal sonic is, that a robot. The story suggests that 50 years earlier another robotnik...somehow literally created a life. There is no precedence for this , in the series, whatsoever. Despite him being created, or so what understand, shadow is in  fact a real hedgehog. He created a life, that' a weird unique thing that has no precedence in sonic whatsoever.That kind of sort of goes against previously established possiblities in sonic...and ever established in sonic post shadow, and previously established themes in the series.

Genetic modification is not nearly as radical as you're making it out to be, it's not as if he created life from dust by snapping his fingers, and there's a fair point to argue that sufficiently advanced AI is a kind of life.

But the bigger point that you're ignoring is that aliens and alien-earthling hybrids were not an established thing in the series either.

5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 Along with that, the reason that scientist even has the last name robotnik seems to be some bad writer couldn't come up with a reason why an evil scientist would break into a base to steal technology with out being personality motivated.

You keep saying this but it doesn't seem to be based on anything more than your dislike of the concept. You don't even need Gerald to explain why Eggman blasts into a military base; they have a weapon that he wants, that's all that's needed, so why assume they created Gerald for anything related to that?

5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

It isn't just the robotnik's either. Its GUN. Its also GUN, gun as it is is weird and filled with humans no one cares about and kinda doesn't need to exist anymore.

I don't like GUN either, and I'd remove them if I could. But the Black Arms suck just as much, and I'd remove them just as quickly.

5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

And it gives unique enemies and problems for shadow to address.

Yeah, "unique" in the sense that it would have nothing to do with Sonic or Eggman or any of the themes or elements of the series.

[Razule]

6 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Knuckles being the last of his people is important, its important to his character. Him seeing them is important

He has less than a reaction to seeing the other echidnas than Eggman does to learning about Gerald. In theory, to him it would be important seeing others of his kind for the first time, but we don't see his feelings. 

It wasn't about delving into Knuckles' history, it's just history. History that would theoretically connect to Knuckles but still leaves his his own character's mostly a blank slate.

[Wraith]

So...do we want Shadow to be tied to Eggman's family or not? I've always kind of liked that detail myself. SA1 dove into Knuckles's past so it's not like it's without precedent 

[Diogenes]

It's better than him being connected to nothing and no one. I do think there could be some interesting interactions between Shadow and Eggman because of it, like, does Shadow see Eggman as family on some level, is he softer on him because he reminds him of Gerald (or harsher, because he reminds him of what Gerald became), something like that.

[Shadowlax]

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Genetic modification is not nearly as radical as you're making it out to be, it's not as if he created life from dust by snapping his fingers, and there's a fair point to argue that sufficiently advanced AI is a kind of life.

Its not the geneic modification, I think that's sorta implied by being half alien. Its more so , the conspiracy from an organization  filled with humans that plays no real big part in sonic's world except for one character one time. Vs aliens a motif that continues to be used in sonic in multiple forms of media to this day and even has aliens taking refuge on the planet 

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

But the bigger point that you're ignoring is that aliens and alien-earthling hybrids were not an established thing in the series either.

Yes, they weren't. And then they were, and they fit better than the old thing. Sometimes time passes and things you originally thought were cool bits of story aren't and you should probably get rid of them. I read comics a lot so i'm pretty used to the idea. 

 

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

You keep saying this but it doesn't seem to be based on anything more than your dislike of the concept. You don't even need Gerald to explain why Eggman blasts into a military base; they have a weapon that he wants, that's all that's needed, so why assume they created Gerald for anything related to that?

Because of the reason you just said. You don't need Gerald to explain why eggman needs to break into a miliary base. There is literally no reason for them to be related whatsoever. Its almost as if a bad writer was up their own butt about how cool their characters are and had to create some contrived reason as to why the bad doctor would lower himself to use someone elses technology 

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I don't like GUN either, and I'd remove them if I could. But the Black Arms suck just as much, and I'd remove them just as quickly.

I think the black arms as a concept is way better, but different strokes. 

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Yeah, "unique" in the sense that it would have nothing to do with Sonic or Eggman or any of the themes or elements of the series.

Eh? Aliens and crazy monsters exist in sonic, they fall under both. Crazy secret organizations run by government g men, not really much of a thing. And I feel like there are levels of unique. Obviously every new thing you introduce is a new concept, right? But there's a difference in introducing say, a princess from another world that shoots fire. And the deadly 6, both of those things at the time were new premises. One just kinda fits the series more in my opinion. 

[Almar]

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Yes, they weren't. And then they were, and they fit better than the old thing.

Tell us how a bunch of Halo rejects are somehow more fitting for Sonic. If anything, both them and GUN don't fit since they're reminders of how the series after jumping into 3D struggled to find an identity for itself.

[Celestia]

Eggman is very self-centered--and that's putting it lightly. I don't think it's bad writing (especially compared to out-of-nowhere additions to a backstory, but I digress) for him to not exactly care that much, or to not treat Shadow any differently from anyone else.

That said, I think he expresses a proper amount of respect for his grandfather in SA2. Most of his actions are huge, metaphorical middle fingers towards GUN, in part because they're on opposing sides anyway, but who's to say it isn't a little personal too? I mean, who could forget when he blew up their island for basically no reason? "Covering his tracks," followed by...immediately and very publicly announcing his plans. And that's when all he knew was that they shut down Gerald's research.

[Wraith]

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

It's better than him being connected to nothing and no one. I do think there could be some interesting interactions between Shadow and Eggman because of it, like, does Shadow see Eggman as family on some level, is he softer on him because he reminds him of Gerald (or harsher, because he reminds him of what Gerald became), something like that.

I like the idea Shadow taking eggman more seriously than most because of some kind of baggage. Sonic and friends are always gonna be there to stop him, but they tend to not take it that seriously/have fun with it, which annoys shadow and explains why he doesn't really like working with them.

[MetalSkulkBane]

My headcanon is that Shadow usually leaves saving the world for Sonic, cause he tries to avoid fighting the last member of Robotnik family.

Overall I like to think that they respect each other (see Sonic 06 or Rivals games) but know their ideologize are too different for them to be family. (Of course, Eggman is a villain. There is a chance he simply has no emotional attachment to Shadow).

[Kuzu]

Eh, I think Shadow having a connection to the primary villain makes for a better story than being connected with some aliens. I mean, who's the one that's gonna be around longer? I don't see Black Doom or any Black Arms running around anymore, meanwhile Eggman is a constant. 

 

I never felt like Eggman cared too much about his family; I mean the only reason he looked into them is to use the weapon he had created. Now yea, you have that monologue on him looking up to his Grandfather, and it COULD make for an interesting angle. But I wanna balance Eggman's self-centeredness with his genuine respect. 

 

And yea, I kinda do like Shadow feeling like he has to stop Eggman as part of his atonement, so preserve any good image of the Robotnik name.

[Tara]

I'm sort of confused about where the problems with Gerald being Eggman's grandfather even reside.  Like, "oh I found my grandfather's diary and discovered this."

 

What's so difficult to believe about that?  It seems like a superfluous thing to take issue with.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Eh, I think Shadow having a connection to the primary villain makes for a better story than being connected with some aliens. I mean, who's the one that's gonna be around longer? I don't see Black Doom or any Black Arms running around anymore, meanwhile Eggman is a constant. 

Well the aliens been here for a while. 

And while this isn't the most canon Sega let archie use the black arms so, I would imagine they are quite more fine with them existing than you might assume. 

And I don't think that's better for a story. I think that's purposefully making the world super small, where it doesn't need to be. Not everything has to be secretly connected to eggman and sonic, sometimes things can be their own thing and that's fine. Especially when those connections are meaningless and only serve to confuse.

1 hour ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I never felt like Eggman cared too much about his family; I mean the only reason he looked into them is to use the weapon he had created. Now yea, you have that monologue on him looking up to his Grandfather, and it COULD make for an interesting angle. But I wanna balance Eggman's self-centeredness with his genuine respect. 

Here's the thing, If he never cared about these people, and they aren't relevant to him in anyway. And their surnames could have been " MCPoopypants " and it would have served the plot the same, or adds no context to any of the characters involved. It is a needless detail that doesn't need to be there that only serves to complicate characters. Some of which , don't really need it. 

1 hour ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

 

And yea, I kinda do like Shadow feeling like he has to stop Eggman as part of his atonement, so preserve any good image of the Robotnik name.

I don't feel like shadow feels like he needs to do that though. He only seems to come around, when shit gets so bad sonic can't do it himself. 

And you know... that's his job, beating up eggman is the same as beating up some other unammed threat he's bothering with. He's helping make the world a better place. So he doesn't really care about the doctor much/

1 hour ago, Tara said:

I'm sort of confused about where the problems with Gerald being Eggman's grandfather even reside.  Like, "oh I found my grandfather's diary and discovered this."

 

1 hour ago, Tara said:

 

What's so difficult to believe about that?  It seems like a superfluous thing to take issue with.

chekhov's gun

If it ain't relevant, why is that even information. Why is that a thing in the story. If literally contributes nothing, then why? All it does is add a weird element to Dr. Eggman that doesn't need to be there. Yes I know there are pieces of art that purposely subvert this, sonic the hedgehog series isn't that. It tends to wear its intentions on its sleeves. Just let him be a doctor that does bad stuff, don't have a weird ignored context that happens every time shadow enters the frame. Because they already have that problem, with knuckles and the master emerald. A weird ignored context the audience thinks about everytime said character needs to be in a plot. 

[Tara]

1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

chekhov's gun

If it ain't relevant, why is that even information. Why is that a thing in the story. If literally contributes nothing, then why? All it does is add a weird element to Dr. Eggman that doesn't need to be there. Yes I know there are pieces of art that purposely subvert this, sonic the hedgehog series isn't that. It tends to wear its intentions on its sleeves. Just let him be a doctor that does bad stuff, don't have a weird ignored context that happens every time shadow enters the frame. Because they already have that problem, with knuckles and the master emerald. A weird ignored context the audience thinks about everytime said character needs to be in a plot. 

That's not how Chekhov's Gun works.

Chekhov's Gun is a philosophy of writing that encourages the conservation of details, not necessarily the omission of plot elements altogether.  It is a tool used to simplify a narrative by cutting out excess bloat and to keep the narration on a consistent track.  The idea is that you don't get sidetracked by excessive details about things that don't matter.  And even then, it's a tool used for evaluating an author's use of foreshadowing, not world building and narrative setup.

But even taking Chekhov's Gun into account, Gerald and Eggman's relationship is still valid.  Under this principle, Gerald being Eggman's grandfather justifies itself immediately in the intro to SA2's Dark Story as a plot catalyst.  Rather Eggman really needed a reason to invade a military base or not, that is his reason in this case.  It is what prompts him to consider Prison Island specifically.  That's all it is and that is the bare minimum of what it has to be in order to be a coherent plot element.  It never tries to be anything more than that, never goes into such detail that you expect it to go anywhere.  They don't go into long-winded explanations or flashbacks pertaining to Eggman's relationship with his grandfather.  The most you get is "My grandfather was doing this" or "Oh, that's my grandfather."  That's it.  It's mere background information used to springboard the events of the story, no more less.

You're attempting to argue under the pretense that the familial relationship doesn't add anything by ultimately changing what the story is.  Instead of being a story about Eggman finding his grandfather's journal and being inspired to break into the military base, you're painting it is as it a cliffnote of sorts, similar to Maria's off-screen disease which actually could be cut back based on Chekhov's Gun.

It's true what Diogenes said:  That you could remove the familial background and not much would be changed in terms of Eggman's motivations, but in that same breath, you must note that removing it wouldn't succeed in simplifying the story, either. Under this same train of logic, you could argue that there is no reason for Sonic to jump out of a helicopter when Sonic could escape the military's pursuit anywhere else.  But what would changing that element do?  Probably nothing, aside from changing the setting.  Removing Eggman's relationship with Robotnik would be no different.  It wouldn't simplify the story, it would merely change the variables.

Something you could argue using Chekhov's Gun would be the ambiguity surrounding rather or not Shadow's memories are even real.  Because they actually did dedicate a scene just to that only for it to not mean anything in the long run.  What did Rouge suggesting that Shadow's memories might be fake actually achieve?  Nothing.  It doesn't succeed in making Shadow question his motivations for even a second, so why bother with not just a passing mention but dedicating a whole cutscene to it?

Eggman and Gerald's relationship on the other hand is not like that.  It doesn't go into verbose detail, it doesn't devote whole scenes to it.  Again, it is background information.  The same way that Amy having a crush on Sonic is background information, not something that needs to be there, but neither is it something that would simplify the story or remove any amount of bloat if it were removed.

[Dash Speed]

My theory is that Shadow makes himself fufill his own goals of being the ultimate lifeform by accomplishing various missions in order to fill the gap of his past haunting him and his desire to surpass Sonic as a stronger being without being a full blown enemy. Shadow says he'll protect the world, but if only if the world stays off his case and doesn't betray him back in 06 so we can write off that shadow is still not truly pro earth hero since it's usually the earth that has to prove themselves worthy of him than the other way around.

12 hours ago, Razule said:

He has less than a reaction to seeing the other echidnas than Eggman does to learning about Gerald. In theory, to him it would be important seeing others of his kind for the first time, but we don't see his feelings. 

It wasn't about delving into Knuckles' history, it's just history. History that would theoretically connect to Knuckles but still leaves his his own character's mostly a blank slate.

I think after Sonic and Tails met him, he stop considering his race as a part of his family and stuck to Sonic and Tails mattering to him.

[Ashwalking Bat]

4 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

My theory is that Shadow makes himself fufill his own goals of being the ultimate lifeform by accomplishing various missions in order to fill the gap of his past haunting him and his desire to surpass Sonic as a stronger being without being a full blown enemy. Shadow says he'll protect the world, but if only if the world stays off his case and doesn't betray him back in 06 so we can write off that shadow is still not truly pro earth hero since it's usually the earth that has to prove themselves worthy of him than the other way around.

The whole 'world betrays Shadow in the future' thing was expositioned by Mephilis. And if memory serves, Mephilis is based off Mephistopheles. A variation of the devil, which feeds lies and desires for sin in the hearts of men. He was the mouth piece of evil and spoke only the things he knew one would want to hear. So Mephilis's exposition on Shadow being betrayed by the humans may of been a illusion/lie designed by him to fool Shadow into hating humanity. If this is the case, then the point you were making with this is moot.

Infact, Mephilis actively fools Silver in trying to kill Sonic. Claiming that Sonic is the Iblis trigger. In some demented way, if Silver's attempts at Sonic's life were successful at any stage, Silver would be technically be the one who is the 'Iblis Trigger' by killing Sonic. Ultimately, it ended up being Mephilis that took thing into his own hands and killed Sonic after all of Silver's failures. So that's proof on it's own that the whole 'world turns on Shadow' thing maybe total BS to mess with Shadow.

But nothing suggests that Shadow would not be pro-earth, that matters canonically and isn't some timeline happened but not really BS, like what 06 did.

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, Tara said:

That's not how Chekhov's Gun works.

First off, before I begin I want to know we have the same working definition of chekhov's gun . 

This is the definition listed on wikipedia 

Quote

Chekhov's gun is a dramatic principle that states that every element in a story must be necessary, and irrelevant elements should be removed; elements should not appear to make "false promises" by never coming into play. The statement is recorded in letters by Anton Chekhov several times, with some variation

And Under this definition, I would argue that's exactly how it works.

Gerald being introduced, introduces a lot of story potential that never amounts to anything. It never goes anywhere,  eggman having a genius grand father that created life, and had been working a creature similar to the one he holds ire for. Creates a lot of parallels , and suggestions about why eggman is who is he is, that the story should go into if its relevant information. 

But it never becomes relevant, its never used. The parallel of his grandfather doing the opposite thing of what he's doing in a way, heck him even being related to him is never used with any sens of importance. Its a gun that happened to be on the ground, in the area I guess. I would argue that superfluous  background information definitely falls under chekhov's gun. When background information is presented in a narrative its still used . Its defining the world, and when in relation to the character its helping define a character. Even seemingly meaningless information like " sonic likes chilidogs " actually contributes to how you see him. ( though that gets a bit more into marketing and character design ) my point is. This does neither, in my eyes its a seems like a band-aid for a problem that didn't exist. Someone just.. .couldn't think of a reason why a super genius would break into a military base. And created a contrived reason to explain it, and didn't need that reason. And the reason in relation to the story contributes nothing and adds nothing to anyone. 

Its just a gun on the ground. 

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Chekhov's Gun is a philosophy of writing that encourages the conservation of details, not necessarily the omission of plot elements altogether.  It is a tool used to simplify a narrative by cutting out excess bloat and to keep the narration on a consistent track.  The idea is that you don't get sidetracked by excessive details about things that don't matter.  And even then, it's a tool used for evaluating an author's use of foreshadowing, not world building and narrative setup.

 

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But even taking Chekhov's Gun into account, Gerald and Eggman's relationship is still valid.  Under this principle, Gerald being Eggman's grandfather justifies itself immediately in the intro to SA2's Dark Story as a plot catalyst.  Rather Eggman really needed a reason to invade a military base or not, that is his reason in this case.  It is what prompts him to consider Prison Island specifically.  That's all it is and that is the bare minimum of what it has to be in order to be a coherent plot element.  It never tries to be anything more than that, never goes into such detail that you expect it to go anywhere.  They don't go into long-winded explanations or flashbacks pertaining to Eggman's relationship with his grandfather.  The most you get is "My grandfather was doing this" or "Oh, that's my grandfather."  That's it.  It's mere background information used to springboard the events of the story, no more less.

But it doesn't justify itself? Contrary to my fun visual metaphor " Its just a gun on the ground" , you might not believe it. But Dr. Gerald Robotnik is infact not a gun, he is infact a human. A human related to another human, and there are a different set of expectations and connotations that come with that. Luke Sky walker point at a lightsaber and going, That's my weapon, and then pointing at Darth vader and going " That's my Dad" have two entirely different meanings  conotations to them. And how you use, and don't use them in a narrative has implications as to their relationship ect. 

Now i'll be the first one to tell you for reasons I wont go into , that just because you are related to a person doesn't really mean you have to care about them or know them really. But I am a human, in the real world and not a famous one so my life isn't a story being brodcast or presented. The robotniks however, are exactly that. 

Eggman being related to geraldo~ kind of promises a lot of things narrative that don't pan out. Because the didn't present gerald as some guy that worked at a library sometime who helped the kids. He was quite literally in the exact same field, working on a subject and with subject matter it turns out that his grandson... would be interested in as well. Hedgehogs and chaos emeralds. This should serve to characterize eggman, so many parallels . It could characterize eggmans past, maybe his whole family is filled with genious that eventually go made. Heck that could characterize future Robotniks. ( but i'm veering off topic ) , it doesn't get used. Its just extra information that only serves to complicate a character in a way that doesn't effect , and someone who in all honestly was never really that complicated, nor should be. It doesn't contribute to anything and it doesn't really get used. 

So to wrap back around, So I guess gerald is in fact like a gun, contrary to myself again. 

Its like  , Teenaged hipster eggman with a full head of hair went into the coffee shop, and his motive was " I saw a gun , like on the ground 5 blocks ago. I should go into this coffee shop" that is using a plot element and evading chekhov's gun. Its a superfluous thing that a bad writer used to justify something that didn't need justification. Its " usage" is meaningless. It could have been a taco he saw, or a coffee cup. Which ironically enough... would evade chekhov's gun.  

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You're attempting to argue under the pretense that the familial relationship doesn't add anything by ultimately changing what the story is. 

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Instead of being a story about Eggman finding his grandfather's journal and being inspired to break into the military base, you're painting it is as it a cliffnote of sorts, similar to Maria's off-screen disease which actually could be cut back based on Chekhov's Gun.

I don't think it changes what the story is much. Now instead of googling his grandfather, he just googled GUN and found out the military had a weapon and found it.

All the context with maria and what happen to gerald only matter to shadow

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It's true what Diogenes said:  That you could remove the familial background and not much would be changed in terms of Eggman's motivations, but in that same breath, you must note that removing it wouldn't succeed in simplifying the story, either. Under this same train of logic, you could argue that there is no reason for Sonic to jump out of a helicopter when Sonic could escape the military's pursuit anywhere else.  But what would changing that element do?  Probably nothing, aside from changing the setting.  Removing Eggman's relationship with Robotnik would be no different.  It wouldn't simplify the story, it would merely change the variables.

Ok, 

1) I dunno, Eggman wanted the thing. Seems a lot simplier than say "Eggman had a secret grandfather you never knew about , that worked for a secret government organization that tortured and killed him and before he died he created life" 

2) That's not a good comparison. And Kind of gets to the heart of my point all together. Doing things that contribute to the narrative of the character and the game itself. Sonic doing that presents you with who this character is and what they are about. Like Dante beating the shit out of a bunch of demons at the beginning of DMC3, it provides a context of the characters personality along with showing you can do to a varying degree with the character in question. This contributes to something. Eggman having a secret grandfather does not, nore does it ever really. The only thing gerald contributes to is shadow, and unless shadow is ... some human named robotnik turned into a hedgehog ( throws up in my mouth because of that gross mental image ) , the sir name robotnik doesn't really seem to serve anyone besides the person it kind of matters to the least. 

 

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Something you could argue using Chekhov's Gun would be the ambiguity surrounding rather or not Shadow's memories are even real.  Because they actually did dedicate a scene just to that only for it to not mean anything in the long run.  What did Rouge suggesting that Shadow's memories might be fake actually achieve?  Nothing.  It doesn't succeed in making Shadow question his motivations for even a second, so why bother with not just a passing mention but dedicating a whole cutscene to it?

I would argue they did kinda use it games later, but yeah you are correct. 

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Eggman and Gerald's relationship on the other hand is not like that.  It doesn't go into verbose detail, it doesn't devote whole scenes to it.  Again, it is background information.  The same way that Amy having a crush on Sonic is background information, not something that needs to be there, but neither is it something that would simplify the story or remove any amount of bloat if it were removed.

That's also not even remotely the same thing, because Amy having a crush on sonic  is literally a main motivation for her character. It is infarct literally the opposite of background information , it litterally drives how she approaches multiple characters in the series and her motives through out multiple games, comics, cartoons ect. And no it might not simplify a narrative but not all narrative beats are the same,  amy's crush on sonic is not . 

"Eggman had a secret grandfather you never knew about , that worked for a secret government organization that tortured and killed him and before he died he created life" 

One of those things is much easier to explain and communicate visually, and the other one is not and actually contributes nothing to the character in question. 

While I appropriate how in depth you went into this response, to suggest that amy having a crush on sonic is mere background information, when it was ( unfortunately ) kind of her defining trait for a good long time is... disingenuous at best.

[Tara]

1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

And Under this definition, I would argue that's exactly how it works.

Except I'm pretty sure you read that definition and only gleamed what you wanted out of it.  The definition literally says-

"...elements should not appear to make "false promises" by never coming into play."

Which aligns with exactly what I just said.  Gerald being related to Eggman doesn't inherently promise anything other than the idea that Eggman has a grandfather, which... you know... happens in real life sometimes.

The entirety of your previous post is explaining how certain elements deliver expectations because you think they ought to deliver expectations, rather than whether or not those elements actually do.  It doesn't matter if you think that because Gerald and Eggman are related it should mean more, the fact it is that in the context of this narrative, it doesn't.  You're forcing a lot more complex layers and false expectations in order to rather haphazardly justify a point.  The story isn't making any false promises (in regards to Eggman and Gerald at least), you're pigeonholing your ideas into the story and somehow contorting the narrative into something that failed to deliver upon things you constructed literally using only the premise that Dr. Eggman has a grandfather that did things.  Not based on any scenes that actually do highly suggest any form of greater narrative purpose, just the concept that the two share a blood lineage in general.

25 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

While I appropriate how in depth you went into this response, to suggest that amy having a crush on sonic is mere background information, when it was ( unfortunately ) kind of her defining trait for a good long time is... disingenuous at best.

You know that defining character traits are background information, right?  Sonic is a blue hedgehog that runs fast, but Sonic Adventure 2 is not about Sonic running fast*.  It's a story about Sonic becoming a victim to a case of mistaken identity, about Shadow fulfilling a promise he made to a fallen friend, about Dr. Eggman trying to take over the world, etc.  In the context of Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic's speed, Amy's crush on Sonic, and indeed Gerald's relationship to Eggman are all background details used to contextualize the characters and the situation they find themselves in.  Especially in the context of SA2, Amy's romance for Sonic really doesn't add much to the story, regardless of it being an essential part of her history as a character.

That being said, background information does not mean unimportant to the plot or character development.  To the contrary, having a firm background is extremely important to the narrative, and you're being intellectually dishonest by attempting to shift the meaning of my words to suggest otherwise.  That being said, surely, SA2 could stand to have a more firm grasp of its background information (which is sort of a problem with this entire series, but I digress), but not really for any of the reasons you're suggesting.  In this case, Amy's crush on Sonic is background information.  It's an important aspect of her character, but it certainly isn't the plot of the game.

*In terms of narrative, not gameplay.

[Shadowlax]

Edit : was a response a here. And I would like to continue arguing, I don't actually agree with quite a bit of last statement, and I would argue that some story beats depending on narrative come with promise built in. That said though I don't quite feel like arguing at the moment, I got stuff. And I didn't wanna seem like a jerk who posted walls of text about fictional go fast animals then ghost on you because you took time and effort to actually type that.So uh yeah. 

Maybe we can continue another time? You were fun to discuss stuff with, if you don't think i'm some weirdo that is. Anyhow, have a nice day? Night? I dunno