We need to define what is nostalgia, it's not what everybody thinks!

[Iko]

They were a middle ground between classic and modern, that's what was cool of them.

I'm not saying they should replicate those games, but make something that's a spiritual successor, that means something built over the same basic idea of mixing classic and modern elements, adding modern movesets to classic-esque gameplay. The Rush series was the "evolution" of the Advance games, but it took away the momentum-based physics and removed depth from the gameplay... I'd like a return to classic-like physics without the constraint of having it to be a "classic" game, that's where the comparison with the Advance series comes from.

Also, the Advance games included some little nice gameplay ideas that could be applied and expanded to other games too (an examples is the possibility to enhance a character's skills with the amount of rings collected, and the idea of a boost that's gained by keeping momentum instead of pressing the button, and that provides more acceleration instead of a fixed speed value).

Just like the Adventure games, there are many people who consider those games bad, and they have issues indeed, but saying they're 100% bad and there are no good ideas in them is unfair, especially since they went very experimental and tried to add new concepts to the table, some of them being neglected only because of the bad reputation of the series and Dimps in general.

 

Don't get me wrong, I actually like Classic Sonic and Sonic 3 is one of my all time favorite games, I just dislike the idea of replicating 1:1 an old game without innovating the formula (adding a couple of new moves and characters IMO is not enough to call it innovation).

[Tara]

Kind of off-topic but I'm not really sure why we're defining nostalgia with the narrow scope of "I was ten years old or younger when I enjoyed it?"

I mean, I played Khimera: Destroy All Monster Girls in 2017, and I found myself getting nostalgic for it when I re-played it just last week after reformatting my PC.  Not because it was such a long time ago, but because it reminded me of a fun event in my life.  That is to say, you can be nostalgic for something without having any childhood memories attached to it.  In fact, as you get older, you'll discover that a lot of your most precious memories won't even be from when you were a child, or you'll redefine what you consider your "childhood" to include your teenage years and even young adulthood.

The fact that we are giving more or less credence to an opinion based not on what is actually being said in the argument, but what age they happened to be when the subject of debate existed is... beyond baffling.  Outside the Sonic fanbase (and maybe the Ninja Turtles fanbase to a lesser extent), I've never seen people have actual debates wherein you could be either right or wrong, more objective or less objective, etc. based on your personal history with the game, rather than the argument being set forth.  It's honestly ridiculous.

[Kellan]

@Tara I once was in a conversation with a guy who felt that nostalgia could be for recent things, while still believing that it could be used as a way of shutting down an argument. Somehow.

”Game is bad!”

”No, it’s not.”

”Your opinion doesn’t matter, because nostalgia!”

”But, I played it for the first time a year ago!”

”Still nostalgia. Your opinion doesn’t count”.

It was, honestly, ridiculous.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

I'm starting to have a real issue with the idea that the Adventure gameplay, even strictly the Sonic gameplay sections of the adventure games, can ever really be done successfully as a major 3D title. Not because of any reasons like physics or 'level design' anything like that, but because of game length. When I see threads like this and discussions defending the Adventure era from nostalgia or whatever ridiculousness, this comes to mind. 

The A to B "linear" action stage approach on its own is not enough for a 3D platformer, especially one like Sonic. And to be sure, Sonic Team realized this over 20 years ago. Thus every Modern Sonic game from SA1-Forces requires heavy padding (alternative playstyles, excessive 2D, etc.) to extend the game to full length not just because they haven't been able to nail the physics, but also the general approach to a full gameplay experience. Even IF this year, Sonic Team sat down with the ghost of 90's Yuji Naka, Christian Whitehead and the most capable 3D platformer developers in the world in a think tank, the truly fundamental problem with big budget 3D Sonic games are that they are not worth $60 today for merely 3-6 hours of content. And I say this as the most rabid idealist of 3D Sonic at his highest potential.

In order for Sonic to succeed as a truly 3D concept, Sonic Team needs to boil down the most crucial elements of what made his 2D gameplay so fun and addictive and translate it into a new gameplay framework. Something that goes a bit beyond his purely 2D A to B "linear" action. An open world context is the first thing that comes to mind and I can imagine how it can be done successfully. I won't get into that here though.

This is assuming they still intend for Sonic to be a flagship franchise once again. 

If they are okay with accepting Sonic as a mid budget franchise, something like Forces where you don't pay full price but you get a few hours of 'fun', then I can see how polishing up Adventure's Sonic gameplay could work, assuming there are quicker ways now to develop and reuse assets than in 1998. They should, however, stay far away from the bullsh*t alternative gameplay styles forever...and thankfully they finally seem to have learned that lesson.

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

3 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

I'm starting to have a real issue with the idea that the Adventure gameplay, even strictly the Sonic gameplay sections of the adventure games, can ever really be done successfully as a major 3D title.

Here's what it really boils down to;

Improvement. Notice how Sonic 1 through 3K got better and better because the developers took time to polish his gameplay, not because they dropped things mid-way? Not let's take a small look at the 3D titles;

Sonic Adventure: First 3D title for Sonic, besides 3D blast. This game had a certain lenghty list of flaws but innocent in translating Sonic to 3D. First times are always rough.

Sonic Adventure 2: Does away with Adventure's more "platform" oriented style and redesigns itself to fit Sonic's Gameplay specifically. Again, not bad and this fits Sonic's style more but it needs to at least improve itself next game yeah? 

Sonic Heroes: Once again redesigns itself to fit a certain style of Sonic by mixing elements of SA1 and SA2. Sonic Heroes is the game where Sega truly fucked up their momentum and went for something new without improving upon it's last iteration.

Shadow The Hedgehog: I honestly will say that despite the game not being that great, at least it was improving something from Heroes but it still has the issue with creating new styles like the gunplay. Far less offensive yet the crushing feeling is there.

Sonic 06: Is basically a remake of SA1 with SA2 elements. It  sadly failed and many of us know why. 

Sonic World Adventure: Redesigned from the ground up to create a new and innovative style of a high-speed racing/platformer hybrid. Let's see where this goes shall we?

Sonic Colors. Fucks off with SWA core gameplay and redesigns the boost formula again....

Sonic Generations: Also fucks off with Color's boost formula and is more of a downgraded Sonic Unleashed/Adventure Hybrid. 

Sonic Lost World: Fuck....

Sonic Forces: 

As you can observe, Sega has a pattern. 

3 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Thus every Modern Sonic game from SA1-Forces requires heavy padding (alternative playstyles, excessive 2D, etc.) to extend the game to full length not just because they haven't been able to nail the physics, but also the general approach to a full gameplay experience.

Some of them have different objectives depending on Sonic's current gameplay style. Whether it is good physics or not is debatable.

Funny thing is; All of the gameplay padding is traced back to Yuji Naka. I assume the developers thought that this is how Modern Sonic should work. World Adventure and Sonic Generations probably are the only good examples of how "padding" should have been in the older games. Although I do agree with the last part of your post. No more of this is needed. But if they do it again for god knows what, it needs to be similar to Generation's Classic Sonic. That's the only kind of quality I can accept.

[Tarnish]

5 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

They should, however, stay far away from the bullsh*t alternative gameplay styles forever...and thankfully they finally seem to have learned that lesson.

Would you say Sonic, Tails and Knuckles had different gameplay styles in Sonic 3 & Knuckles/Sonic Mania? Or would you consider that the same gameplay style, just with slightly different abilities?

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

1 hour ago, Tarnish said:

Would you say Sonic, Tails and Knuckles had different gameplay styles in Sonic 3 & Knuckles/Sonic Mania? Or would you consider that the same gameplay style, just with slightly different abilities?

Of course they have the same fundamental gameplay. That's a clear example of extra characters done right and proof that people don't have an agenda against them, and would welcome them in the right format. They've just been handled pretty badly in 3D Modern Sonic games.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

3 hours ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

Funny thing is; All of the gameplay padding is traced back to Yuji Naka. I assume the developers thought that this is how Modern Sonic should work. 

I won't add much except that Yuji Naka and company likely thought that as a result of realizing the difficulties in designing a full game experience out of Sonic's classic arcade-y experience. He's said as much in interviews anyway, iirc. Sonic games were always going to be short when designed that way and they needed a way to expand it. Not to insult them but what they did is literally taking the cheap route as a result of hardware limitations and development hours. Understandable but ultimately less than satisfactory.

[BaronGrackle]

I'm starting to have a real issue with the idea that the Adventure gameplay, even strictly the Sonic gameplay sections of the adventure games, can ever really be done successfully as a major 3D title. Not because of any reasons like physics or 'level design' anything like that, but because of game length. When I see threads like this and discussions defending the Adventure era from nostalgia or whatever ridiculousness, this comes to mind.

To be fair, I've heard this same argument applied to 2D classic Sonic. And it still holds - Mania didn't cost $60 even at release. Which feeds into your point. What, is SEGA expected to turn Sonic into a series of minor titles that milks money from people buying multiple copies and collector swag?

The question might be: is SEGA capable of making ANY Sonic game that sells well at full price? And if not, does it matter?

[Muscles Maximum]

You know, I used to think it’d be impossible to have a lengthy Sonic game without some ridiculous padding or alternate gameplay style like Unleashed. And I’m all for shorter games I can play and beat in an hour or two like Mania, Advance, or Sonic’s story in Adventure. I used to even welcome the thought of Sonic just always being this short ride of a game I could beat in no time if it meant a good consistent game with no parts I really dread or put off.

Though I will say something about these lengthier games that just feel so much fuller and richer. Sonic can learn so much from Mario Odyssey. Imagine a Sonic game where you travel the world riding the Tornado. Going from place to place in these huge sprawling worlds and landscapes the way you do in Odyssey. Imagine Sonic was pasted into the Sand Kingdom in Odyssey for a minute. In a game that plays similarly to Utopia, rolling down sand dunes, traveling from the small town you land in to the oasis, or to the huge playgrounds full of enemies and platforming obstacle courses. Grinding on the electric wires, spin dashing up dunes to gain loads of height, or using the bounce attack to gain some height then following up with  jump dash to get to a place just out of reach or something, idk get creative with Sonic’s tool kit. Using Sonic’s abilities to get to places you shouldn’t be able to get to, and get rewarded for doing so and having fun with the game. Not get blocked by some invisible wall or death plane or whatever. Traversing that land at Sonic’s speed would feel incredible I think. I’d even take a more simplistic stylazied look like Lost World has if it means the game could run at a higher frame rate or process things better to accommodate for moving at high speeds.

I believe it’d be totally feasible to make a full game like this with Sonic as the star. It’d inherently be shorter than Odyssey because Sonic is so fast. But they could fill the world with lots of objectives and extra things to do. Like having different characters in different parts of the world you can talk to and do little missions for extra content. Mario Odyssey can be beaten in like an hour. Though the game has 80+ hours worth of extra content for you to do if you go for all moons. They could definitely figure something out for Sonic. Like unlockable skins, getting chaos emeralds as rewards, Super Sonic, maybe stickers or something for the Tornado. Who knows man.

I love Sonic Unleashed, and it’s funny how that game is probably the closest thing to Odyssey Sonic has. Unleashed felt so full of life, and it really felt like the developers cared. It’s just so rich. It’s a shame the game just falls flat because of a gameplay style nobody likes that takes up 70% of your playtime, and collecting the sun and moon medals wasn’t very fun and very grindy making you replay levels multiple times to progress.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

1 hour ago, Strong Guy said:

Though I will say something about these lengthier games that just feel so much fuller and richer. Sonic can learn so much from Mario Odyssey. Imagine a Sonic game where you travel the world riding the Tornado. Going from place to place in these huge sprawling worlds and landscapes the way you do in Odyssey. Imagine Sonic was pasted into the Sand Kingdom in Odyssey for a minute. In a game that plays similarly to Utopia, rolling down sand dunes, traveling from the small town you land in to the oasis, or to the huge playgrounds full of enemies and platforming obstacle courses. Grinding on the electric wires, spin dashing up dunes to gain loads of height, or using the bounce attack to gain some height then following up with  jump dash to get to a place just out of reach or something, idk get creative with Sonic’s tool kit. Using Sonic’s abilities to get to places you shouldn’t be able to get to, and get rewarded for doing so and having fun with the game. Not get blocked by some invisible wall or death plane or whatever. Traversing that land at Sonic’s speed would feel incredible I think. I’d even take a more simplistic stylazied look like Lost World has if it means the game could run at a higher frame rate or process things better to accommodate for moving at high speeds.

I believe it’d be totally feasible to make a full game like this with Sonic as the star. It’d inherently be shorter than Odyssey because Sonic is so fast. But they could fill the world with lots of objectives and extra things to do. Like having different characters in different parts of the world you can talk to and do little missions for extra content. Mario Odyssey can be beaten in like an hour. Though the game has 80+ hours worth of extra content for you to do if you go for all moons. They could definitely figure something out for Sonic. Like unlockable skins, getting chaos emeralds as rewards, Super Sonic, maybe stickers or something for the Tornado. Who knows man.

This is very much like my thinking. I think Sonic has SO much potential in a 3D space. But Sonic Team has to start thinking in a fully 3D context, by understanding and boiling down the most important elements of what makes classic Sonic (or Mania Sonic!) fun to play in the first place and using those elements to build a new 3D gameplay foundation. This is not what they've been doing the bulk of the past 20 years, which is molding a 3D space around Sonic's 2D gameplay....i.e. directly porting the 2D oriented gameplay into a 3D space.

I do think that the classic A to B stage gameplay would still have its place in a fully 3D game when handled intelligently. I have lots of ideas on this actually but won't get into it now (because this is getting pretty OT).

Additionally, I think a proper 3D title in that vein would more easily allow for extra characters to be developed and explore their own unique ways of conquering the same terrain. 

7 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

To be fair, I've heard this same argument applied to 2D classic Sonic. And it still holds - Mania didn't cost $60 even at release. Which feeds into your point. What, is SEGA expected to turn Sonic into a series of minor titles that milks money from people buying multiple copies and collector swag?

The question might be: is SEGA capable of making ANY Sonic game that sells well at full price? And if not, does it matter?

This is why Mania works as a sub-franchise. You're charged $20-$30 bucks for a game worth that much to the general gaming pop. Expectations are met. They can milk me like a cow as far as I'm concerned as long as we continue to get fantastic content like Mania and Mania adventures, and special collectors content. 

As far as their big budget entries though, the general gaming pop isn't going to pay $60 for this. In 1994 Mania would go for $50-$60 but not today, for a game with 3-6 hours of content. This is where they should invest in their "Sonic Odyssey", so to speak. A game like that handled with the same love and care that Mania (and Odyssey) got, would serve as a true flagship for SEGA.

[Marco9966]

2 hours ago, Strong Guy said:

You know, I used to think it’d be impossible to have a lengthy Sonic game without some ridiculous padding or alternate gameplay style like Unleashed. And I’m all for shorter games I can play and beat in an hour or two like Mania, Advance, or Sonic’s story in Adventure. I used to even welcome the thought of Sonic just always being this short ride of a game I could beat in no time if it meant a good consistent game with no parts I really dread or put off.

Though I will say something about these lengthier games that just feel so much fuller and richer. Sonic can learn so much from Mario Odyssey. Imagine a Sonic game where you travel the world riding the Tornado. Going from place to place in these huge sprawling worlds and landscapes the way you do in Odyssey. Imagine Sonic was pasted into the Sand Kingdom in Odyssey for a minute. In a game that plays similarly to Utopia, rolling down sand dunes, traveling from the small town you land in to the oasis, or to the huge playgrounds full of enemies and platforming obstacle courses. Grinding on the electric wires, spin dashing up dunes to gain loads of height, or using the bounce attack to gain some height then following up with  jump dash to get to a place just out of reach or something, idk get creative with Sonic’s tool kit. Using Sonic’s abilities to get to places you shouldn’t be able to get to, and get rewarded for doing so and having fun with the game. Not get blocked by some invisible wall or death plane or whatever. Traversing that land at Sonic’s speed would feel incredible I think. I’d even take a more simplistic stylazied look like Lost World has if it means the game could run at a higher frame rate or process things better to accommodate for moving at high speeds.

I believe it’d be totally feasible to make a full game like this with Sonic as the star. It’d inherently be shorter than Odyssey because Sonic is so fast. But they could fill the world with lots of objectives and extra things to do. Like having different characters in different parts of the world you can talk to and do little missions for extra content. Mario Odyssey can be beaten in like an hour. Though the game has 80+ hours worth of extra content for you to do if you go for all moons. They could definitely figure something out for Sonic. Like unlockable skins, getting chaos emeralds as rewards, Super Sonic, maybe stickers or something for the Tornado. Who knows man.

I love Sonic Unleashed, and it’s funny how that game is probably the closest thing to Odyssey Sonic has. Unleashed felt so full of life, and it really felt like the developers cared. It’s just so rich. It’s a shame the game just falls flat because of a gameplay style nobody likes that takes up 70% of your playtime, and collecting the sun and moon medals wasn’t very fun and very grindy making you replay levels multiple times to progress.

It's a shame that the game is not ported on PC and we never get to play it again...

[batson]

At this point I'm pretty much nostalgic to the entire pre-2006 Sonic video game franchise, even to the games I never actually played. I spent a good chunck of my teenage years in the 00's browsing Sonic stuff on the internet, watching images, listening to music, talking about the series on forums, to the point where I feel like I became familiar to a certain extent with pretty much the whole series. Back then I thought about the series all the time, sometimes all throughout the day. I used to make up stories with the characters in my head. I loved the Chaotix guys, I somehow identified with Tails, and I had a hardcore physical attraction to Amy (hey, I don't believe in censoring history!). And of course I played any Sonic game I could get my hands on for hours upon hours upon hours.

Today, I can watch gameplay footage of, say, Knuckles Chaotix and go "sigh, I remember this..." even though I've STILL not actually played the game. I'm just that familiar with it despite this.

The reason I put down 2006 as the year after which I'm not necasarelly nostalgic towards later parts of the franchise is because at some point around that, around when I turned 20 and offically left my teenage years, I sorta entered a point when nothing afterwards really feels old to me, and its difficult to be nostalgic towards something that isn't old. A game like, say, Sonic Unleashed have no nostalgic value to me. It feels recent (even though it's in fact 10 years old).

So yeah, if a Sonic game today wanted to give me the nostalgic feelies, it could just pick and choose elements from all sorts of games from any era of the first 15 years of the franchise's history. Classic, dark age, Adventure, second dark age, it's all good to me!

[superman43]

I wouldn´t say that there is so much nostalgia going on. It´s more about memorability of the levels. Just think about it... 

Sonic 1: Everyone who played it at least once is able to write the levels. Plus music.

Sonic 2: Practically the same.

Sonic CD: Sure.

Sonic 3, Sonic and Knuckles: Totally.

Sonic Adventure, Adventure 2, Heroes: There are many reasons why people like these games.

After Heroes well it´s not that bright. Shadow the Hedgehog being a game that everyone would like to forget about, 06 mostly ditto (+that Adv./Adv.2/Heroes rehashes were evident). Unleashed are cities all around.

Maybe Colors was well received for that exact reason, that the levels are somehow memorable. Not quite as much, though.

Lost World is again rehash and Forces as well. And while some tunes are catchy and the levels are okayish in Forces, I don´t think there would be any nostalgia for Ghost Town, Park Avenue, Sunset Heights or any Mystic Jungle stage.

The rest of it... well... "Green Hill was better in Gens, Chemical Plant as well". Death Egg was, oh, utter joke (at least for Classic Sonic). Metropolis was way too similar to Heroes and EE Fortress just felt like mix of Scrap Brain and Metallic Madness.